Plavan's 818R Build Thread

[Mulry]

That #5 test mule appears to have the front of the humps open, which probably does wonders for lowering engine bay temps, but could impose a nasty aero loss. GT-1000 wing?

[C.Plavan]

That #5 test mule appears to have the front of the humps open, which probably does wonders for lowering engine bay temps, but could impose a nasty aero loss. GT-1000 wing?

I cant tell you it does not do anything. I tried them open.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

That will be fun! The Lotus cockpit cover is what I'd like to emulate. That and a flat wing.
That Lotus must have its suspension pretty compressed in that shot.
Was really disappointed to hear that John George was not able to drive the FFR 818R at Palmer this past weekend. The Electromotive ECU was acting up and I don't think he got in any time on the track with it. BTW, that gray car has power steering!
46083


I cant tell you it does not do anything. I tried them open.

Chad,
it looks like no windshield, so they may be getting some air in the passenger hump.
Bob

[D Clary]

Looks like larger side scoops and vents on top of the quarters. I wonder if they would share any of these pictures close up with explanations as to how they work.

[Frank818]

You've got to beat that Lotus. :)

[C.Plavan]

You've got to beat that Lotus. :)

They are in a different all Lotus run group. We can compare times..... just hope car works.

[C.Plavan]

Chad,
it looks like no windshield, so they may be getting some air in the passenger hump.
Bob

Yeah- But I tried it. I originally had my air filter there (in the open hump) It still did not get much flow. In fact, when I had the humps open and my coolant overheated, coolant was spewing out my overflow (which is behind the degas tank) from the hump forward in a circular buffeting motion. It got my dash and fuel cell cover wet at speed....... I'm telling you this car is possessed. :)

[C.Plavan]

Here is a video from my last Vintage race. The video is from a ~600HP Camaro. He has a great rear camera setup. You will see the difference between a Drag racer and a race car (My car @211 RWHP- 2.5L short stroke). The other car is a Canterham kit car. ~260 hp weighing 1000 pounds. The thing was ridiculously fast.


https://youtu.be/QeG20UkxlDE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeG20UkxlDE&feature=youtu.be

[Hindsight]

Is it just me or is that Caterham not going nearly as fast as he could through those turns? On most every turn, he straightens out on the inside of the track almost immediately after the apex.... no drifting to the outside edge. With his power to weight ratio, I would think he isn't power-limited there. Maybe he's just late-apexing and I can't see it from this camera angle?

Sure does look like fun. I can't wait to get my 818 into some HPDE days.

[C.Plavan]

Is it just me or is that Caterham not going nearly as fast as he could through those turns? On most every turn, he straightens out on the inside of the track almost immediately after the apex.... no drifting to the outside edge. With his power to weight ratio, I would think he isn't power-limited there. Maybe he's just late-apexing and I can't see it from this camera angle?

Sure does look like fun. I can't wait to get my 818 into some HPDE days.

Yeah- I could not figure out his line. I'm hanging on for dear life on exit. A car that light with that much power just proved he can go anywhere on the track no problem. He was in a different class. He ended up doing my 818R time. My 911 was 2 seconds off of it. Regardless, still impressive.

[Santiago]

You've got to beat that Lotus. :)

YES, YES, YES! [Even if it is just on the stopwatch]

[Wayne Presley]

That guy in the Caterham just can't drive... He's giving up an easy 2 seconds a lap. Chad, the 911 seems a little loose on corner exit, is it?

[C.Plavan]

That guy in the Caterham just can't drive... He's giving up an easy 2 seconds a lap. Chad, the 911 seems a little loose on corner exit, is it?

It's a little loose, but not too bad. Just like any 911 with torsion bars and a 46 year old suspension design. I like keeping my reflexes trained. :)

[C.Plavan]

Everyone check your rod ends.

During my pre race check of the car, both rear inner rod ends separated....... Great....... ordered new ends, but I may have to press these in and use washers to get me ready for the race.

http://i.imgur.com/dZJy97fl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/j2vCm7ul.jpg

[Santiago]

Aurora rod ends & F.K. Bearings rod ends...these are the goods.

For me, what was supplied was good for set up and shakedown, but everything is getting replaced when its time to start a season.

[Mulry]

This implies that the rod end-spacer design maybe wasn't the most well thought out idea. Maybe a high deflection safety washer would've worked better. :(

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=3068

[C.Plavan]

This implies that the rod end-spacer design maybe wasn't the most well thought out idea. Maybe a high deflection washer & a stack of washers behind would've worked better. :(

I checked all the others and they were ok. I will be changing them all this offseason if I still have the car.

[Tamra]

Wow!!! Glad you caught that.... we'll keep an eye on ours. Is FFR replacing them for you, I hope?

[C.Plavan]

Wow!!! Glad you caught that.... we'll keep an eye on ours. Is FFR replacing them for you, I hope?

It would just happen again, I'm going to use better stuff.

[bbjones121]

I don't remember seeing anything like this on my car. Did they upgrade later chassis with another side on that end? Maybe they can just send you the other side that you could weld on your chassis later?

[C.Plavan]

I don't remember seeing anything like this on my car. Did they upgrade later chassis with another side on that end? Maybe they can just send you the other side that you could weld on your chassis later?

These are the same tubes/rod ends FFR provides. They just did not provide them for my car (it's chassis #44). Its the only way to adjust toe correctly at R height.

[bbjones121]

These are the same tubes/rod ends FFR provides. They just did not provide them for my car (it's chassis #44). Its the only way to adjust toe correctly at R height.

Oh ok. Well I hope you can figure something out. I am really looking forward to seeing how your car does. By the way, I see the other bracket now. From the pictures it didn't look like the bolt/eye was supported on one side.

[C.Plavan]

This should hold them in for this weekend. Then I will replace them all with quality ends.
You need (2) Grade 8- 5/8" washers, (4) 16mm regular washers per rod end. I got them from Ace Hardware locally.

Side note: Somehow I got a hold of some of the crappier two piece rod ends- I'm not sure how I let that slip. You should be fine with the one piece ones that FFR provides since it has much higher lateral loads. Don't make the mistake I did.


http://i.imgur.com/bcxHwxxl.jpg

[Hindsight]

Good luck this weekend. Hope those anti-collapse things sorts your issue.

[C.Plavan]

Thanks- I found all sorts of crazy weird things. I disconnected the spintric. I need to talk with the ARE guy. It was not flowing that much oil to the coolers, and instead dumping hot oil in the top of the tank. I disconnected it, and now have great flow to the coolers. It was a trickle with the spintric. I also am running sans vent on the case- total vacuum like Gator. There is no way for hot oil to bypass the coolers and dump into the tank now. It all HAS to go through the coolers.

The inner spring supports are in the vacuum lines, with heatshields over the headers. Oil pump belt is checked for tension. If the oil is not getting pumped out of the motor, it will stay full and not go out my old case vent to the oil tank.... So here goes nothing!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Good luck Chad,
if the crank case gets full, you will feel a large drop in power making to the wheels.
Are you going to the track tomorrow?
Bob

[C.Plavan]

Good luck Chad,
if the crank case gets full, you will feel a large drop in power making to the wheels.
Are you going to the track tomorrow?
Bob

I'll be out there testing a half day on Friday. If it works, I'm racing the weekend.

[Sgt.Gator]

Fingers crossed for you!
I know this is Capt Obvious, but you didn't have the Spintric connected in reverse? No need to reply unless it was!

[C.Plavan]

Fingers crossed for you!
I know this is Capt Obvious, but you didn't have the Spintric connected in reverse? No need to reply unless it was!

I triple checked. I had it totally correct. I was scratching my head. That's why I disconnected the return line to see what was going on. Nothing on this car makes sense. haha

[D Clary]

Good luck this weekend, your due.

[metros]

^Agreed. Good luck

[Flamshackle]

all the best chad! we are watching from a world away hoping it all comes together on the day.

[RetroRacing]

Good luck man!!

[C.Plavan]

Thanks Guys! I really want this thing to work.

I talked with the Engineer at ARE about the Spintric. He said in my case I had to run the Spintric after the coolers. He apologized for not updating the instructions for cars with long oil line runs or multiple coolers.

Before I re routed, I rev'd the crap out of the car with the Spintric un hooked. There was foam in the top of the oil tank. I then re routed the lines, made a new one, and hooked up the Spintric. I rev'd that crap out of it again, checked the coolers, checked lines, and looked in the tank....No Foam :) Everything is working on that front for sure. Good oil flow, and no foam in the tank. Lets just hope my real problem was those darn collapsing scavenge lines. Fingers-crossed

[Mitch Wright]

Fingers crossed

[Hindsight]

If it doesn't solve the issue (and I'm hoping it does, believe me), have you given any consideration to going back to a wet sump temporarily, as a tool for testing and elimination?

[Sgt.Gator]

Are you staying with the sealed up motor and just splitting the air/mist line off the Spintric close to the tank? I am imagining you have just the one line from the DS pump>cooler1>cooler2>Spintric split>DS tank?

I changed my oil yesterday to mothball my car for the winter. Man that 20W50 racing oil is like cold maple syrup!

[Wayne Presley]

Sgt, you forgot the motor :cool:

[C.Plavan]

Are you staying with the sealed up motor and just splitting the air/mist line off the Spintric close to the tank? I am imagining you have just the one line from the DS pump>cooler1>cooler2>Spintric split>DS tank?

I changed my oil yesterday to mothball my car for the winter. Man that 20W50 racing oil is like cold maple syrup!

Yes, all sealed up. I tied the head vents together and Tee'd them to the 3/4 case vent line (No more venting to my oil tank). Just like you did. I bought better, stiffer hose that could take the vacuum for the head and case vents. The old hose would collapse on top of the motor with the new sealed set up. It means the vacuum is working.

As for the Dry sump routing......Scavenge pan>DS Pump>Cooler1 (Rear)>Cooler2(Front)>Cooler3(Front)>Spintric scavenge in>Spintric Magic> Spintric split (two fittings) to oil tank (oily air) to top of tank with special fitting, Scavenge out (no foamy oil) to middle fitting of oil tank. Then there is the vent to a catch can from the other top oil tank fitting.

I'm leaving all three oil coolers hooked up this time. Maybe I can get rid of the rear one if everything works as planned.

I'm using the 15/50 Mobil 1. I am bringing my VR1 20/50 also just in case.

[Mulry]

My fingers are crossed for you today, Chad.


Thanks Guys! I really want this thing to work.

I talked with the Engineer at ARE about the Spintric. He said in my case I had to run the Spintric after the coolers. He apologized for not updating the instructions for cars with long oil line runs or multiple coolers.

Before I re routed, I rev'd the crap out of the car with the Spintric un hooked. There was foam in the top of the oil tank. I then re routed the lines, made a new one, and hooked up the Spintric. I rev'd that crap out of it again, checked the coolers, checked lines, and looked in the tank....No Foam :) Everything is working on that front for sure. Good oil flow, and no foam in the tank. Lets just hope my real problem was those darn collapsing scavenge lines. Fingers-crossed

What? This is backwards from the documentation they send with that unit. Hmm. Guess I need to talk to ARE before we do our final setup. That routing is really at odds with the normal plumbing routing (like this: http://barnessystems.com/plumbing-schematics/2732883). I wonder if that's because you're not using a DS Pump with a pressure side? Thx Chad.

How are you guys connecting the head vents to the case vent? Did you drill/tap the case vent for a fitting or what are you using? Are you just using push-on hose and worm clamps at the factory fitting on the head vent? Given the amount of suction from the dry sump, I wonder if all three of those couldn't just be capped, I can't imagine that the heads are filling with oil enough to overflow to the vents when the dry sump pump is running.

[C.Plavan]

Here goes nothing! Forgot my GoPro housing darn it. I'll grab it tonight if things go well.

http://i.imgur.com/Ee9siiz.jpg (http://imgur.com/Ee9siiz)

[mikeb75]

Luck!

[Pearldrummer7]

Good luck! Can't wait to hear how it goes

[C.Plavan]

Didn't work. Packing it up.

[Sgt.Gator]

My fingers are crossed for you today, Chad.
How are you guys connecting the head vents to the case vent? Did you drill/tap the case vent for a fitting or what are you using? Are you just using push-on hose and worm clamps at the factory fitting on the head vent? Given the amount of suction from the dry sump, I wonder if all three of those couldn't just be capped, I can't imagine that the heads are filling with oil enough to overflow to the vents when the dry sump pump is running.

There's pics over the R thread on oil issues, but the short answer is there are two vents on each head. The rear vents stay connected via the OEM balance system of tubes and hoses to the block vent. It stays oem original.
The front two vents we teed together, then run the teed line back to the former PCV vent fitting in the block. In my case I used a metal elbow to make the turn down to the PCV vent and tapped a vacuum hose into the elbow connected to a boost/vacuum gauge on my dash.

The purpose is to keep pressures even between both heads and the block.

Hope this makes sense!

[Sgt.Gator]

didn't work. Packing it up.

noooooo!!!!!

[Mechie3]

Lame.

[D Clary]

Sorry Chad, still think you are chasing effect not cause.

[Pearldrummer7]

Didn't work. Packing it up.

What happened? Same thing?

[Hindsight]

Ugh, sorry man.

[bbjones121]

Noooooo,

[bbjones121]

I was hoping to hear how you destroyed those Lotus, sad.. Sorry man.

[C.Plavan]

I was dicing it up with a 997 Cup car no problem, one that won the enduro race last event...... Then it happened again after 20 min.

Oil pump guru's. Is it at all possible that the 11cm pump flows so much oil at 6500-7200RPM that the scavenge pump cannot keep up to keep oil out of the block??? I'm at a loss.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I was dicing it up with a 997 Cup car no problem, one that won the enduro race last event...... Then it happened again after 20 min.

Oil pump guru's. Is it at all possible that the 11cm pump flows so much oil at 6500-7200RPM that the scavenge pump cannot keep up to keep oil out of the block??? I'm at a loss.

Chad,
so sorry the hoses didn't fix the issue. I was very sure that was the problem.
Bob

[FFRSpec72]

I was dicing it up with a 997 Cup car no problem, one that won the enduro race last event...... Then it happened again after 20 min.

Oil pump guru's. Is it at all possible that the 11cm pump flows so much oil at 6500-7200RPM that the scavenge pump cannot keep up to keep oil out of the block??? I'm at a loss.

Is it possible to take the engine out and give it back to AJW Performance and say, give me a new one ? or fix this one ?

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad was the tank full of foam again?

[C.Plavan]

Chad was the tank full of foam again?

No foam. I just think when I'm really pushing it. The 11cm oil pump flows too much oil for the scavenge pump to pump out at high rpms. I really don't know what the hell is going on.

[Sgt.Gator]

No foam. I just think when I'm really pushing it. The 11cm oil pump flows too much oil for the scavenge pump to pump out at high rpms. I really don't know what the hell is going on.

That seems highly unlikely since most all the other Element Tuning DS builds probably use the 11mm "upgrade" pump on big power builds. However it is possible the 11mm is causing the oil to run around in the bypass circuit too long and heat up. For other readers that has been hashed thru in detail in the 818R Discussions Forum.

The two possible things I can think to do now:
1) Try to isolate the problem to either the engine build or the DS system. Did you have high temp problems when you were still running the wet sump? I'm thinking the next step is to disconnect the DS system, re-install an oem wet sump pan and pickup and see if it gets too hot. Your oil coolers would not be hooked up unless you slap a sandwich plate on the oil filter and connect them up. But this time of year with low track temps you shouldn't need the oil coolers. You don't need to entirely rip out the DS system, just disconnect and plug the lines for this test.
or
2) Swap out the 11mm for your 10mm pump. (For some reason I thought you had already done that). If that doesn't work try 1).

[bbjones121]

Go back to stock pickup, maybe killer bee,

[C.Plavan]

No killer bee for me. The pan sits well below the frame. It would be 2 inches above the track at R height.
I think someone just needs to make me an offer on this car.

[DodgyTim]

Sorry to hear the problem isn't gone
I've always thought the drive belt was underdone and it must draw a lot of power at high revs because the scavenge pump runs so fast compared to other systems
Is it worth $20 bucks for an optical tachometer to check the belt isn't slipping ?

At idle the scavenge pump will rotate (say 1.3x) the crank rpm
Just rev the engine to 6500 rpm and check the ratio stays the same
Cheers

[D Clary]

I think if the oil scavenge or foaming, or belt slip were the problem, it would not take 20 minutes to occur. The fact that it has improved slightly with the additional coolers tells me that it is generating to much oil temp. My unenlightened suspicion is there is not enough main bearing clearance and the oil temp goes up as the engine tightens. If oil cooling were the problem I think three coolers would cure it. The problem is oil heating.

[Frank818]

Impossible :( I just don't believe it. I know you are telling the truth, just that I don't believe the truth!!

[Scargo]

I'm not saying I know from experience (except I have run 11mm's successfully on my 7,200 RPM wet-sump engines) but I found these tidbits.
Three pump sizes and outputs. Data is 8YO. (http://www.rallispec.com/eng_opu_sub_t.html) I confirmed the accuracy of some of it.
46538
Spec for AVCS engine with a 10mm pump in Quarts: (oil temp 80 C which is 176 F)
600RPM: Discharge Pressure 14PSI; Discharge rate 4.9 US quarts or more per minute
5000RPM: Discharge pressure 43PSI; Discharge rate 49.7 US quarts or more per minute (12.4 GPM)
Relief Valve working pressure: 85PSI
Rallispec's comments on sizing a pump. (http://www.rallispec.com/eng_opu_sub_t.html)
This is a great thread on doing work to the case, heads and oil pump (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2237089) to make oil flow smoother and with less restrictions. I have done a lot of this to my engines and it's very commonly done among the race motor builders I know. I don't think the oil pump you have is too big.
Since I can't remember everything you've tried or all the pieces I want to ask if the water temp rises in concert with the oil temps?
Could you have a water cooling issue? Still some air in the system?
Every time I hear you say that the performance drops lap by lap I think of heat-soak of the intercooler. But then if oil and water are getting hotter then that can't be all there is to it. Could your fuel also be getting very hot?

[Santiago]

Very sorry to hear it Chad. If I had the money (and space) I'd take the car; I think it's important to remember you have built a great car...but the teething issues have been a bit of a nightmare.

Best,
-j

[Zach34]

So, can we assume that nothing associated with the dry sump - the scavenge pumps, plumbing, foaming, vents, etc. - is causing the issue? Also, if the 11cm pump was too big, oil would back up in the crankcase as soon as you wind up the engine at high rpm, not 20 minutes later, right?

If that's the case then maybe the next step is to pull the motor and look at the mains. The only remaining theory that seems plausible is that after about 20 minutes the crank has gotten hot enough to start seizing in the bearings, assuming it takes 20 minutes for the heat to soak the crank and overcome the cooling effect of the oil being pushed through the main bearings. But if that's the case, I can't believe it hasn't blown up yet.

If only it were a good ol' American V8, you could just drop the oil pan and pull one of the main caps.

[C.Plavan]

So, can we assume that nothing associated with the dry sump - the scavenge pumps, plumbing, foaming, vents, etc. - is causing the issue? Also, if the 11cm pump was too big, oil would back up in the crankcase as soon as you wind up the engine at high rpm, not 20 minutes later, right?

If that's the case then maybe the next step is to pull the motor and look at the mains. The only remaining theory that seems plausible is that after about 20 minutes the crank has gotten hot enough to start seizing in the bearings, assuming it takes 20 minutes for the heat to soak the crank and overcome the cooling effect of the oil being pushed through the main bearings. But if that's the case, I can't believe it hasn't blown up yet.

If only it were a good ol' American V8, you could just drop the oil pan and pull one of the main caps.

That is the only reason I don't think it's the mains. It would of blown up a long time ago. I cut the filters open, and there are no surprises. I'll cut the filter open again in a few days. The car is in another "Time Out" in the corner of the garage.
I have really been thinking of trying a new motor (non suby).

[C.Plavan]

For the data points. Coolant never got over 210, the Awic over 135. Oil got to 250 again, but performance went away before that. The new thing was pressure was acting funny. That's why I was thinking the motor is filling with oil draining the oil tank. The old way I had it plumbed, the oil could be pushed out the case vent back to the tank. Not this way with the vacuum.

But then again who knows. My racing buddies have named it the "Demon car".
Btw- I was just as fast as the Lotus 211's with 26 heat cycles on old tires.

[Pearldrummer7]

Another... Horizontally opposed motor? ;)

Sorry to hear it, Chad. If it's any consolation, I too had heat issues on the track today. And I'm certain I'm not even pushing it as hard as you are.

[Mitch Wright]

Pearldrummer, what were your heat issues?

[metalmaker12]

For the data points. Coolant never got over 210, the Awic over 135. Oil got to 250 again, but performance went away before that. The new thing was pressure was acting funny. That's why I was thinking the motor is filling with oil draining the oil tank. The old way I had it plumbed, the oil could be pushed out the case vent back to the tank. Not this way with the vacuum.

But then again who knows. My racing buddies have named it the "Demon car".
Btw- I was just as fast as the Lotus 211's with 26 heat cycles on old tires.

Don't give up on the car, it's running fast and not sorted, get some advice from any good local racing subie team, something is not set up the way it needs to be. There is no way the oil should be getting so hot so fast. I bet you spend some time with a subie race team they will help you out.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Chad
to prove the theory about the scavenge pumps not keeping up.
You could cap off one pump and drive around the neighborhood and see if you get the same symptoms.
Bob

[Hindsight]

Chad, I completely understand your frustration.

The dry sump is complex and there are a lot of variables. I really agree with Gator's advice to try going back to wet sump as a test. You would be ruling out SO many things by doing that. If you do it and there is no heat issue, you can rule out the engine mechanicals, the tune, the oil cooling capability of your coolers, etc. If you do it and there are still heat issues, then you know it's not the dry sump and you can stop troubleshooting it.

You've spent most of your time on the dry sump and oiling system. Maybe it's time to rule it out completely?

You don't need to run a killer-b pan; the 2.5L pan is deep and will work fine (doesn't go below frame either). I would really suggest the killer-B pickup tube because the stock tubes are prone to failure but if you really don't want Killer-B stuff, it shouldn't matter for a few track tests. You are already keeping an eye on the gauges so in a wet-sump test session, just watch the oil pressure around the corners for a couple laps. Depending on the track (and the tires you are currently running), you will likely be fine. There are Subie guys running very high G's with a wet sump and slicks no problem. Again, for a test, it should be fine.

You can bolt on an oil cooler plate to the factory oil filter bracket. Can get one with or without thermostat. The Mocal ones are fantastic (~$80 with thermostat) and they have the BST to NPT fittings for them that will get you to your -10AN lines to your oil coolers.

[Pearldrummer7]

Pearldrummer, what were your heat issues?

Mitch- I'll post them in my build thread (Frank's 818R) tomorrow. Don't wanna further thread jack

[Sgt.Gator]

I have a spare OEM STI pan and Moroso or Killer B pickups I can loan you. No problem!

[longislandwrx]

Chad,

Fark.

46576

Now for some Monday morning quarterbacking.

If you pull it off the track and let it idle, does the oil temp begin to cool off, or does it stay hot indefinitely?

Did you mark the oil level in when warmed up and then after overheat condition to try and calculate how much oil is in the crank case?

How have under hatch temps been? Could the tank still just be soaking up too much heat? Can you throw a peak hold thermometer under the hatch and just do some aggressive street driving around your test track?

if it's crazy hot what would it take to get the tank up front behind the radiator?

last but not least, if you have time, can you photograph your setup, so its easier to visualize?

keep fighting the good fight.

The difference between this car an a WRX is still the sheer amount of cool air being rammed through the front of the car.

[C.Plavan]

I have a spare OEM STI pan and Moroso or Killer B pickups I can loan you. No problem!

I may take you up on that Gator to see if it's the dry sump.

I have been toying/day dreaming about the idea of a 3.5L Ford Ecoboost motor. Forget about the 2.3L Ecoboost. I talked with Ford Performance, and they will not be making a "Control Pack" for it and unfortunately, the 2.0L control pack will not work. The 3.5L control pack comes out at the end of the month (Finally). ($1950)

Daily is making a dry sump for it (just talked with him).

I need to measure (3.5L is 28.5" at its widest), but then the hard part would be a trans adapter.

Just dreaming.

[D Clary]

I have just installed the 3.5 in my fox body mustang. 29 inches wide at the turbos and you will need 26 to 30 inches of length depending on the air intake. It is very big for a six. Ordered my control pack 2200.00. I think it would hit everything. You would definitely have to re-locate the turbos. After all of that you are right where you are now. the first one. If you do it there is a place in Anahiem who is making my button flywheel and multi disc clutch. You are rally close with what you have, don't re-invent the wheel.

[D Clary]

46577Here you go

[C.Plavan]

I have just installed the 3.5 in my fox body mustang. 29 inches wide at the turbos and you will need 26 to 30 inches of length depending on the air intake. It is very big for a six. Ordered my control pack 2200.00. I think it would hit everything. You would definitely have to re-locate the turbos. After all of that you are right where you are now. the first one. If you do it there is a place in Anahiem who is making my button flywheel and multi disc clutch. You are rally close with what you have, don't re-invent the wheel.

I got 21.5" from crank to pulley on the 3.5L. Cutting out bars for the Turbo's and rewelding is not a problem. I got a lead on a Adapter Plate for the suby trans. I have not really started measuring the 818 yet. I hear you on the motor, but- I'm not liking this EJ25 set up at all. I could sell my Iwire and ECU stuff to a 818S builder and almost pay for the 3.5L Drive Pack.

[D Clary]

The front cooling manifold and intake manifold stick out much farther than the crank pulley. You could custom make both if you needed to, I have not looked at the FWD configuration. All of this is out of an f-150. I think the torque numbers might be trouble for the subie transaxle. You might be better off with the porche. Try the wet sump from gator see if it makes any difference, I suspect it wont, but its worth a try. Wish there was a way to find out without buying a track day and towing for nothing.

[C.Plavan]

I'm headed to SEMA this year. 3.5L Ecoboost is out. Too long, too much work.

2.0L or 2.3L Ecoboost motor is knocking on my door. I talked to a couple manufacturers. The dry sump for the 2.0L with integrated oil pump will be available after PRI. Ford is looking into the 2.3L to tell me if the oil pan bolt pattern is the same (2.0L/2.3L).
Stay tuned.

[129st]

The 2.0L ecoboost crate engine with controls pack is a bargain (under $5100). 300HP with E85 should be achievable. The engine was designed for transverse mounting. Besides the oil pan, are there other issues with changing to longitudinal mounting. Looks like the ATA intercooler connection points are not optimal.

[D Clary]

I wonder if it could be transverse mounted. You could then use the ford transaxle. This will be great chad I'll watch you be the first to do this. You may be a glutton for punishment.

[C.Plavan]

I wonder if it could be transverse mounted. You could then use the ford transaxle. This will be great chad I'll watch you be the first to do this. You may be a glutton for punishment.

I thought about that, But I'll stick with the Subaru trans for now. Jim gave me a lead on a adapter plate. Glutton for punishment is still continuing to figure out the subaru motor. I'm past that point, and have been for awhile. I need something new to focus on with the hope to having a properly running race car.

As far as ATA- No different that trying to get the Subaru set up to work. Need to move things to the front of the car. As for the Ford Control Pack, unfortunately you can't add additional components to the motor then tune. So you need a stand alone ECU that Mountune can provide.

400hp on the 2.0L Ecoboost is easily possible. Not that I need that. These are the guys I have been chatting with, along with Jim for measurements.

http://www.mountuneusa.com/
http://www.esslingeracing.com/

[Frank818]

So you ditched the Porsche air cooled option?

[C.Plavan]

So you ditched the Porsche air cooled option?

For now. I didn't want to dump another $15k for a properly built 911 race motor. God knows I already spent too much.

[D Clary]

I have bought a lot of stuff from Esslinger I don't know what the know about the 2.0 as their stuff is mostly old 2.3 stuff. 400 horse is going to be expensive as the stock internals are not going to hold up. They may hold up at 300 but I would bet against 400. But like you say you don't need that much. Perhaps money better spent is to take all of your subie stuff, oiling and electronics and take it to a dyno and have someone who knows what their doing, beat the crap out of it and fix it. It may cost money but it is money you have already spent some of it obviously on the wrong stuff, or at least unnecessary stuff. You have all winter to straighten it out and believe it or not, it will be the cheapest easiest way.

[Wayne Presley]

I've had a 2.3 turbocoupe thunderbird on my dyno putting out 470 RWHP at 29 psi. Esslinger head, billet crank, huge intercooler, oliver rods JE pistons, ya know cheap stuff :D

[Zach34]

Another thing to consider: Some of us will eventually catch up to you. My build will be very similar - using an STI motor with a dry sump. If some things work out, I will be in San Diego next year, too. The only problem for me is I'm going at a snail's pace due to many external factors pulling my time away from the car. Odds are within the next year there will be a handful more 818Rs on the track, likely all subaru-powered, and we'll have more data to diagnose what works, if anything, on the track.

You either spend money or time, or both...

[C.Plavan]

I've had a 2.3 turbocoupe thunderbird on my dyno putting out 470 RWHP at 29 psi. Esslinger head, billet crank, huge intercooler, oliver rods JE pistons, ya know cheap stuff :D

Haha! Good point.

[walt555]

Hey Chad,

What size pullies are you using on the scavenge pump and the crank? If you need a smaller crank pully i have 1 on my 02 its about 4.5 inches in diameter. Lmk

Walt

[Sgt.Gator]

I think we are about to see a new level of drama with this build!

[C.Plavan]

i think we are about to see a new level of drama with this build!

haha.

[Mechie3]

I finished your rack extender and will ship it out shortly. :D

[walt555]

I was dicing it up with a 997 Cup car no problem, one that won the enduro race last event...... Then it happened again after 20 min.

Oil pump guru's. Is it at all possible that the 11cm pump flows so much oil at 6500-7200RPM that the scavenge pump cannot keep up to keep oil out of the block??? I'm at a loss.

I was thinking the total opposite. The scavenge pump was draining the sump dry and all the blowby air was causing the extra heat.....sorry if Im totally off.

[C.Plavan]

Come and buy it. I will deliver in CA. Save yourself the time, have the best stuff, turn key. Replace the short block For cheap. There is no way you can build this car to this level for $25k.

[Pearldrummer7]

Come and buy it. I will deliver in CA. Save yourself the time, have the best stuff, turn key. Replace the short block For cheap. There is no way you can build this car to this level for $25k.

Can agree. Mine isn't even close at $24K. This car is truly a steal. GLWS, Chad.

[Wayne Presley]

Hey Chad, I got to sit in the new NASA car the other day at the SEMA show. Very nice but forward low visibility was nor great.

[Hindsight]

NASA car as in FFR Roadster Challenge car? Is that what you are thinking about moving over to?

[C.Plavan]

Hey Chad, I got to sit in the new NASA car the other day at the SEMA show. Very nice but forward low visibility was nor great.

I sat in it also. It's all about the seat pour. I didn't see an issue. A lot of race car for the money.

[129st]

I'll bet they are talking about the NASA NP01.

http://nasaprototype.com/the-elan-np01/

[C.Plavan]

NASA car as in FFR Roadster Challenge car? Is that what you are thinking about moving over to?

Sorry Hindsight, Just saw this. 129ST is right, We are talking about the Elan NP01.
http://i.imgur.com/vZjxIX0l.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Zfhchjnl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/OW0NYNHl.jpg

[Hindsight]

Ok yeah, I remember you mentioning one of these some time ago. Looks like they are made about 45 minutes from where I live. Looks like they will also go together much faster than the 818, but it's obviously a very different beast.

I can't believe no one has bought your 818 for the price you are asking.

[C.Plavan]

Ok yeah, I remember you mentioning one of these some time ago. Looks like they are made about 45 minutes from where I live. Looks like they will also go together much faster than the 818, but it's obviously a very different beast.

I can't believe no one has bought your 818 for the price you are asking.

I put it up for sale locally. There is someone coming to see it.

[Santiago]

Hopefully they buy it...and save me from doing something really irresponsible.

[C.Plavan]

Hopefully they buy it...and save me from doing something really irresponsible.

Well, its still here..... Time to be irresponsible. :) It was just a Tire Kicker over his head.

[C.Plavan]

I'm changing out the 11cm oil pump today with a 10cm. Should be fun.

[D Clary]

I have sold a few race cars, always at the track. Had to take the engine out of one at the track and take home an empty trailer. When it comes to race cars you have to be ready when someone is willing. All of the race cars I have seen on CL are asking pennies on the dollar. Get it to the track and kick somebody's *** with it, price goes way up.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Get it to the track and kick somebody's *** with it, price goes way up.

If he does that without any problems, I don't think he would sell it. What do you say Chad?.

[C.Plavan]

If he does that without any problems, I don't think he would sell it. What do you say Chad?.

I just sold my Spyder. So that is my deposit on the Elan NP01. I'll still mess with the 818R, but it will be sold at some point. I just got done installing the new 10cm oil pump. I'm just waiting on the underdrive pulley, and I can test it again. Price will be going up if this fixes it. :)

[C.Plavan]

10cm oil pump is in. I just need to route the timing belt and button it back up. I received the underdrive pulley also. I'll test it out in the near future.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

10cm oil pump is in. I just need to route the timing belt and button it back up. I received the underdrive pulley also. I'll test it out in the near future.

Chad,
Were you able to change the oil pump without pulling the engine?
Bob

[C.Plavan]

Chad,
Were you able to change the oil pump without pulling the engine?
Bob

Yeah- it wasn't that bad at all. It's easier to do it on jackstands than with my scissor lift. The only thing that might be a little difficult solo is getting the timing belt and timing right. I'll have one of my buddies come over and help from the top of the motor, while I'm under the car to make sure everything lines up right.
I didn't have to remove the seat or firewall. The rear drivers side seat bolt is a PITA to get to.

Used the starter bump method to get the crank pulley off- Easy peasy. I have the crank tool to get it back on easily.

[129st]

I just sold my Spyder. So that is my deposit on the Elan NP01. I'll still mess with the 818R, but it will be sold at some point. I just got done installing the new 10cm oil pump. I'm just waiting on the underdrive pulley, and I can test it again. Price will be going up if this fixes it. :)

Congrats on the NP01. The aero on the car looks awesome. I look forward to seeing some YouTube videos of you driving the car.

Do you plan to assemble the car yourself?

[C.Plavan]

Congrats on the NP01. The aero on the car looks awesome. I look forward to seeing some YouTube videos of you driving the car.

Do you plan to assemble the car yourself?

Thanks. As of right now I plan on building it myself. However, Elan offered to build it for $8500. If i'm going crazy on the wait, I may just have them build it. I mean, this is a real race car designer/building company, $8500 for a pro team to build it and it being turn key has its advantages. But on the other hand it is $8500.... But I LOVE building. Building something like the NP01 in my garage will be a dream....

Both cars were at Buttonwillow raceway last weekend.

http://i.imgur.com/5DUCyG8l.jpg

[longislandwrx]

Hopefully if it worked for Gator it will work for you with your 3 coolers. did you block off the coolant bypass as well? spintric back on?

[C.Plavan]

Hopefully if it worked for Gator it will work for you with your 3 coolers. did you block off the coolant bypass as well? spintric back on?

I have not decided on what to do with the heater bypass. I have a secondary coolant gauge sender located in that loop. The Spintric is on. Hopefully, I can remove the rear cooler. I may try venting my Dry sump the original way I had it first.

[Mulry]

I have not decided on what to do with the heater bypass. I have a secondary coolant gauge sender located in that loop. The Spintric is on. Hopefully, I can remove the rear cooler. I may try venting my Dry sump the original way I had it first.

As I've been working on the design and routing of our dry sump system, I've been giving a lot of thought to the vent setup that you were running and the one that Sgt Gator runs now. I don't think that either of them are strictly necessary in a dry sump setup (even a hybrid scavenge pump/stock oil pump setup like both of you are running), but I'd love to have that conversation.

It seems to me that having an opening in the vent system going from either the oil tank (or the oil tank catch tank) and back to the crankcase -- your original vent setup, right? -- only reduces the efficiency of the scavenge side by providing a huge air draw into the engine. That seems counter-intuitive. I can see looping the head vents to the PCV location just to seal all of them up in the same drainage/scavenge loop with the rest of the oil scavenge system (like Sgt Gator is doing -- and I think that's your current setup?), but I can't see the benefit of providing additional air draw into the engine. Wouldn't that just draw air into the system to have the Spintric remove it again?

[C.Plavan]

Just curious. Does this look like a timing belt with ~5 to 6 hours on it?

You can't see any timing marks or lettering. It has a little groove on the outside......
http://i.imgur.com/7Q3OxtKl.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/xoY6dWKl.jpg

[508wrx]

Was that rubbing on the timing belt guide or do you have a pulley that's beating it up?

That's pretty gnarly.

[C.Plavan]

My free advice- STAY AWAY FROM AJW. Idler Belt tensioners are shot also. They installed badly used parts.... Yet charged me for new.

https://youtu.be/vteR6bApe78


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vteR6bApe78

[508wrx]

I feel for you.

AJW used to be 30min from where I live. Back when I had my WRX i bought a full set of brembo's off them that were in "perfect working condition". They were used, so I expected some paint chips. All of them were frozen or had stripped bleeders. Never got my $ back and I was lucky to resell them. I let the buyer know they were junk and could be salvaged but I didn't want to deal with it.

One of my first post on this forum was to avoid AJW. They sent me a PM trying to figure out my issue, I told them, I never heard back.

I could recommend a bunch of other shops but knowing you situation it seems like that wont help. And I hate to say it, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that you have a used motor with used parts in it.

[C.Plavan]

I feel for you.

AJW used to be 30min from where I live. Back when I had my WRX i bought a full set of brembo's off them that were in "perfect working condition". They were used, so I expected some paint chips. All of them were frozen or had stripped bleeders. Never got my $ back and I was lucky to resell them. I let the buyer know they were junk and could be salvaged but I didn't want to deal with it.

One of my first post on this forum was to avoid AJW. They sent me a PM trying to figure out my issue, I told them, I never heard back.

I could recommend a bunch of other shops but knowing you situation it seems like that wont help. And I hate to say it, but I wouldn't be surprised to learn that you have a used motor with used parts in it.


I know the short block was new. It was the only really clean part and the serial numbers matched with a 2013 sti. I wish Factory Five screened sponsors before allowing them to sell stuff. This was before I knew anything Subaru. I figured if Factory Five allowed them to sell stuff, they must be legit. Boy was I wrong. I have seen AJW go downhill here on the forum.

This is the only time I wished I lived on the East Coast. I would pay them a visit.

[Sgt.Gator]

Unbelievable! How could they put old timing components on a new forged build block???!!

After seeing this I'd bet the "new forged internals" are old oem Subaru stock. And even if they did put forged pistons/rods in, how can you trust they got the bearing tolerances correct. Of course you can't! No wonder you are having so many problems with this engine.

I suggest that while you are at it you send an oil sample to Blackstone Labs if you have some laps since your last oil change. The analysis could be very interesting.

[C.Plavan]

Unbelievable! How could they put old timing components on a new forged build block???!!

After seeing this I'd bet the "new forged internals" are old oem Subaru stock. And even if they did put forged pistons/rods in, how can you trust they got the bearing tolerances correct. Of course you can't! No wonder you are having so many problems with this engine.

I suggest that while you are at it you send an oil sample to Blackstone Labs if you have some laps since your last oil change. The analysis could be very interesting.

I will do that. It's supposed to have the stock forged rods but with forged Pistons. They knew this was going in a racecar. The heads were used of course but cleaned up. It does make me wonder.

[nkw8181]

Sounds like you may have found your smoking gun. Best of luck in solving this problem.

[mikeb75]

Ummmm, yea. I don't like to speak ill -even on the internet, but having owned Subaru's for a bunch of years and been playing near that line where the engine gets questionable I've assembled a list of vendors I'd trust with something major and reciprocating... I don't mean to say I've been exhaustive in my reading, but AJW never showed up on my radar.

Chad, it really sucks that you've had so much grief from what I think everyone now realizes is a questionable engine considering how much you pushed the envelope to get your R built and tracked. It doubly sucks that the forum has kinda let you down re. giving you guidance to a quality/reputable engine builder.

It's not my car or my money, and I'm sure you need another opinion like you need another... (gotta keep it clean) appendix, but if it was me; knowing what your intention for the car is; I'd pull the engine and send it off to be stripped and rebuilt to a shop that is known for quality work.

Best of Luck!

[AZPete]

I'm not surprised. I have an AJW pallet and as soon as I got it I sent an oil sample to Blackstone. It came back as a good used engine with no surprises. Blackstone analysis is only $25 and will show what's happening in your engine.

[Sgt.Gator]

Chad, the groove in the timing belt is almost surely from a mis-djusted or damaged belt guide. Make sure all of them are in the right place and secured correctly. And the timing guide that goes above the crank sprocket is especially important. There are several aftermarket guides (Cosworth, Tomei and more..). I was thinking of using the Company 23 guide on my Spec B rebuild. http://www.company23.com/520

[Scargo]

OK, so I see a supposedly new 2013 short-block was used. Some don't cool as well as others and you sure don't want to be working with an older "open" block. Same for the heads. Besides port design, valve bowl size and compression, some cool better. I just wonder what you are working with and what kind of head gaskets, etc. were used. There's also porting that can be done on the case's oil passages to help with flow restrictions.
In the number of motors I've torn down I've never seen idler pulleys or tensioners that looked worn out like that, in the video...

Gates makes a blue heavy-duty racing belt. You should go with that when you go back together. I used a Tomei Timing Belt Guide on my last build. About $45-50.

[C.Plavan]

OK, so I see a supposedly new 2013 short-block was used. Some don't cool as well as others and you sure don't want to be working with an older "open" block. Same for the heads. Besides port design, valve bowl size and compression, some cool better. I just wonder what you are working with and what kind of head gaskets, etc. were used. There's also porting that can be done on the case's oil passages to help with flow restrictions.
In the number of motors I've torn down I've never seen idler pulleys or tensioners that looked worn out like that, in the video...

Yeah- who knows. I ordered and complete gates timing belt kit (blue racing belt). The water pump seemed ok, but I need to check it again because I was more disgusted with what I found taking the belt off. I'm going to test it mid Dec at the track again.

[C.Plavan]

Chad, the groove in the timing belt is almost surely from a mis-djusted or damaged belt guide. Make sure all of them are in the right place and secured correctly. And the timing guide that goes above the crank sprocket is especially important. There are several aftermarket guides (Cosworth, Tomei and more..). I was thinking of using the Company 23 guide on my Spec B rebuild. http://www.company23.com/520

Thanks Gator. I ordered that guide today. Trust me, I'll be going over all the guides and adjusting them properly.

[Mechie3]

Guides should be adjusted with a feeler gauge and tightened with the feeler gauge in place and/or rechecked after tightening. They tend to rotate into the belt when tightened. Also, I think the service manual says to put silicone on the screws to prevent them from loosening and dropping the guide onto the belt.

My only dealing with AJW was third hand when I bought one of their exhausts off a local guy that changed his mind. FFRspec72 asked me how it fit and that's when I noticed it was 2" too low but "within spec" according to them. 2" off is a lot.

[Scargo]

The water pump seemed ok, but I need to check it again...

If you look at the water pump make sure it is Subaru PN 21111AA026. Not the one that is on the right!
http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t188/covertrussian/Cars/05%20LGT/Engine/General/Water%20Pump/CIMG0744.jpg

[Tamra]

After finding that, I wouldn't trust the rest of the engine. I would either be opening it up and checking clearances, or starting with a different, unopened OEM block. You aren't making crazy power so a stock 2.5 would probably be fine.

It would at least eliminate the possibility that your oil problems are due to something improperly futzed with in your current block.

[bbjones121]

You can get a new oem STI shortblock for $1600 around here.

[RetroRacing]

Please take the engine out and get it checked, I wouldn't trust it either. Ive removed engines for much less and saved a fortune in time and money doing so.

[Scargo]

You can get a new oem STI shortblock for $1600 around here.
The very best I have been able to do is $1710 shipped*. Comes out of Flatirons Tuning in Colorado (http://www.flatironstuning.com/p-1978-2009-sti-ej257-shortblock-with-heat-treated-crankshaft.aspx), so why don't you spill the beans about your deal?
I'm sorry if I come off as irritated, because probably I am. So many people want to mouth-off about what they found or what they did or can do, when it is a pretty simple thing to add a link to their source.
* With their free shipping deal and 5% off deal. It's worth it if you buy much of anything from them. They have quite good pricing as it is. I am not paid to say this. I have bought thousands of dollars of stuff from them. Jon also is a wealth of information on Subarus!

[Rasmus]

The one time I dealt with AJW, I left feeling that they're out to make a buck at the expense of the every buyer that comes to them. If they can bull**** and lie to make more and get away with it, they'll do it. It's sad too, they're a sponsor of this forum. I've had at least two PM (private) conversations about AJW's business practices. Stay away, stay far away from that business.

[Mechie3]

bbjones might have meant at a local to him dealer. My local Subaru dealer gives an ~20% discount to the local subaru club on almost all parts including short blocks.


Rasmus, unfortunately, the only thing required to become a vendor is to pay $9.99/mo for bronze status.

[Wayne Presley]

Wow Chad, do you have an inspection camera? I think popping off the oil pan and looking at the bottoms of the pistons would be prudent. You should be able to see the names cast into the backside of the crown. Really sucks about AJW doing you wrong.

[bbjones121]

The very best I have been able to do is $1710 shipped*. Comes out of Flatirons Tuning in Colorado (http://www.flatironstuning.com/p-1978-2009-sti-ej257-shortblock-with-heat-treated-crankshaft.aspx), so why don't you spill the beans about your deal?
I'm sorry if I come off as irritated, because probably I am. So many people want to mouth-off about what they found or what they did or can do, when it is a pretty simple thing to add a link to their source.
* With their free shipping deal and 5% off deal. It's worth it if you buy much of anything from them. They have quite good pricing as it is. I am not paid to say this. I have bought thousands of dollars of stuff from them. Jon also is a wealth of information on Subarus!

Flatirons is one of the cheap places around here. I drive up there for parts all the time. It was a place down in Colorado springs. They were advertised on craigslist locally for awhile, I don't see them now. If I find it, I will let you know. My plan is to get one when my 818 needs a new one or when my legacy gt needs it.

[Sgt.Gator]

Heuberger is the largest Subaru dealer in North America and has the best shipped parts prices. They are a NASIOC and Legacy GT forum sponsor. Almost everyone on the LGT forum buys their new oem shortblocks there. My sponsor, Subaru of Bend, can't match their price, but since I don't have to pay shipping if I buy from SoB it ends up being the same.

Here's a July 2015 shopping list from an LGT Forum member:

Shortblock | OEM P/N 10103AC030 | Heurburger | $1694.97+ship
Gasket Kit | OEM P/N 10105AA720 | Heurburger | $261.59+ship
Oil Pump | 10mm, OEM P/N 15010AA300 | Heurburger | $138.71+ship
Oil Pan | OEM P/N 11109AA131 | Heurburger | $98.55+ship
Oil Cooler | OEM P/N 21311AA051 | Heurburger | $214.61+ship

Heuberger Motors
1080 Motor City Drive
Colorado Springs, CO
phone: 1-719-475-1956
email: matt@cheapsubaru.com

[Pearldrummer7]

+1 for Heuberger- bought my WRX there and some aftermarket parts. Those guys just rock.

I hope this is the source of your headaches, Chad!

[Mechie3]

I'm just glad chad sold his spyder and kept the R for now.

[Flamshackle]

I'm just glad chad sold his spyder and kept the R for now.

Same! I know you intend to sell it Chad but getting it going properly will be the best way to end your experience with it.

It's always better to go out on a high.

[C.Plavan]

Thanks for all the support and ideas. Thanks for the waterpump advice Scargo.
I'm just going to look over the motor REALLY well, install the new parts, and test the hell out of it in December hopefully. If the motor does the same thing, it's coming out. I'll take it apart to see what I have. If I find anything out of the ordinary from what I paid for, or missing, I will make it my free time fun to post video's about AJW's work.
I then will buy a new block, go through the heads etc and install it. Or just sell the car as a roller.
Hopefully, all these new parts and changes will fix it.

[AJW Performance]

Hey guys, Andrew here.
It's been over a year since I have been on the forum personally, I have been playing catch up on this thread here to see if there is anything we can do to help. I apologize in advance for not seeing/ hearing of this sooner.

Engine Wise:

SGT.Gator mentioned Joe at ICY/PPI before on Page 39, that is where this motor was born FYI, we worked with these guys on our built Subaru motors.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?11129-Plavan-s-818R-Build-Thread/page39

Here is what it is:
2013 STi Shortblock (OEM Bottom end, so OEM forged rods, OEM bearings, OEM crank etc)
Stock Bore JE Forged Pistons
ARP Headstuds
Rebuilt single AVCS heads and aftermarket cams
OEM headgaskets
Killer B Pan (which I believe Chad took off)
Killer B Pickup/Baffle
11mm oil pump

Shortblock wise this is our Stage 1 setup, ideal for people in the 300-400 WHP range. As many of you know the weak link with the EJ25 motor is piston related, hence why those get replaced with forged ones.

Timing belt wise we were just as surprised as Chad to see the damage that accorded to the belt itself in such minimal time, and we are still looking into that on our end.

I am collecting content from this thread focusing on the "oiling system". It seems to me that there has been some great technical feedback and ideas from people in regards to that. Tomorrow I hope to dig deeper into this in hopes that we may have some incite that may help as well.

Thanks,
Andrew

[bbjones121]

Welcome to the racing test and development thread. Kept up to date by one of the most helpful builders on these forums. I hope you guys can figure this out and get a working system for Chad so he can prove the 818 to everyone.

[AJW Performance]

Welcome to the racing test and development thread. Kept up to date by one of the most helpful builders on these forums. I hope you guys can figure this out and get a working system for Chad so he can prove the 818 to everyone.

Thank you sir, just working on populating all the valuable data and ideas that have been done by you guys, in hopes that we can stimulate some input and solutions as well!

Update from Today (Nov 18 2015):
I spoke with Joe from Phoenix Performance Inc, who was our builder for Chad's AJW Stage 1 Shortblock.
I sent him along some of the highlighted information and data you all have done such a good job collecting (temps, oiling system modifications, etc).
He, myself and Kyle (our tech) felt that IF there was a actual internal engine issue, the engine would have not lasted to where it is now between original start up, tuning, and 5-6 hours of track time at those very high RPM's. Again not ruling anything out here, just sharing what I have as of today

In his experience he has only witnessed oil temp issues with Subaru race engines if:
They are getting run hard without enough air getting to the coolers
They are not sized properly

He did not have any incite on the approach in regards to changing oil pump size unfortunately.

Not much, but just posting what I have discovered thus far. I am sure both of those points above have been mentioned here prior.

[C.Plavan]

I just removed the 5hr water pump...... Looks like I'll order the correct one for a racing motor- Subaru PN 21111AA026

http://i.imgur.com/jfsdcVWl.jpg

[xxguitarist]

Glyn or Chad (or other)
How significant is the difference between the xx240 and xx026 pumps, and under what conditions?
We have the 240 design, stamped sheet metal. Our use is different from yours, as we have short bits of extreme conditions, as opposed to sustained.
We have seen no issues in coolant temps.

[Wayne Presley]

I just removed the 5hr water pump...... Looks like I'll order the correct one for a racing motor- Subaru PN 21111AA026

http://i.imgur.com/jfsdcVWl.jpg

Is it the pic or does the waterpump body look not so new? With the brand new short block, the engine case aluminum and waterpump body should show the same oxidation level.

[bbjones121]

I just removed the 5hr water pump...... Looks like I'll order the correct one for a racing motor- Subaru PN 21111AA026

http://i.imgur.com/jfsdcVWl.jpg

That looks terrible compared to one I just took out of my 90,000mile donor.

[Mechie3]

Is it the pic or does the waterpump body look not so new? With the brand new short block, the engine case aluminum and waterpump body should show the same oxidation level.

My thoughts pretty much. Can you post a pic of the front of the pump and the area of the block it came off for comparison?

[C.Plavan]

My thoughts pretty much. Can you post a pic of the front of the pump and the area of the block it came off for comparison?

Will do. It was close to the same. The inside looks worse. I was on my back working in a confined space so I didn't really look hard. My short block is still new and shiny.

[bbjones121]

I don't know if I would go with the cast impeller..21111AA026. It is for the 2.0 liter. Yes, it can fling more coolant, but it does not allow as much through the top of impeller. I would assume Subaru engineered this appropriately for 2.5 liter

[dirty kurty]

That pump looks like it was exposed to regular tap (hard) water instead of DI/distilled water or pre-mix, and then left to sit for an extended period of time.

[DodgyTim]

Gates seem to do two types of pump, 43548 is stamped impeller, 43513 appears to have a cast impeller, but I have not seen one firsthand
Online photos of the 43513
47746

[Scargo]

I have no empirical evidence, just anecdotal. The ...026 is touted by many as flowing more coolant and performing better because the fluid cannot escape out the sides and gaps. I think there are even some high-dollar variants of this pump "for racers". I don't usually buy into that kind of snake oil.
I've never had a cooling issue with the 026 at 400WHP for an hour on the track, though I do have a great Ron Davis radiator.

An example of what's offered. (http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2215063)
Rallispec mentions cavitation issues. (http://www.rallispec.com/eng_wpu_rstr0350.html)

The images of Chad's pump show rust on the tubes. That is rather, quite unexplainably unbelievable.

[C.Plavan]

Well- Here are the pictures. I have only used distilled water and Water Wetter in the 818R. I had to go pick up some rotors for our BMW Chumpcar (Racing at Laguna Seca in a couple of weeks). For $hits and giggles I took the water pump to the parts store and showed them. They see failed/used water pumps all the time for core charges..... The corrosion on the nipples is what they talked about not being right. "We live in a desert, that does not happen out here". Anyway- You be the judge.

http://i.imgur.com/P93b5pvh.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/Ob8z58hh.jpg

Blue belt dust
http://i.imgur.com/qSoIwqCl.jpg

[Pearldrummer7]

My water pump (15k on motor before me in upstate NY... All running coolant) was not that rusty, Chad. Maybe 50% as much rust.

That would be fantastic if this was your issue. The blue belt dust there looks really suspicious. Fingers crossed!

[Scargo]

Paper gasket? A Subaru water pump gasket is metal! See above edit to my post about issues with the stamped steel impeller. You might have just been having a cavitation issue in the water pump.
I have to wonder. If used parts were installed, why would an hourly mechanic want to do this? Is he taking the new parts home and selling them on Ebay?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Just a note, torque for water pump bolts is only 8.7 ft-lbs. don't ask how I know.

[Mulry]

Paper gasket? A Subaru water pump gasket is metal! See above edit to my post about issues with the stamped steel impeller. You might have just been having a cavitation issue in the water pump.
I have to wonder. If used parts were installed, why would an hourly mechanic want to do this? Is he taking the new parts home and selling them on Ebay?

Because he charges for new & then uses what he has on the shelf for increased profits.

[AJW Performance]

The pump some of you (including Chad) seem to like now (not the one on Chad's motor) used to come on the old old Subaru platforms if I recall, like 02/03 WRX's.
All the newer platforms we have dealt with have the style on Chad's. It sounds like this pump preference is based on some new findings that you guys have discovered?
Street car, 350whp performance street car, or 500whp track car all the pump styles we see or deal with here are the style on Chad's car, not the old 02/03 one. Scargo I will check out those links you posted.

The gasket was paper because those are how the Gates kits used to come.

Chad, can you see if there is any surface rust on the pulley on the pump?
If in some way shape or form that kit was used prior to you using the car it would have that, all the ones I see here in New England develop that, and I assume where you are from that would not occur.

(And just to clarify for other readers the intake manifold, Subaru specific hoses/plumbing, turbo, lines, etc were used components from a donor).

[AJW Performance]

Because he charges for new & then uses what he has on the shelf for increased profits.

Not true.
There was plenty of opportunity to "make more money" if that is what we wanted to do. For example Chad's setup as is with the new shortblock, used heads, and other donor components (turbo, intake, etc) would sell on average for about $2500.00- $3,000.00 more than what he bought it for. Not going to disclose how much, that is his privacy. If he shopped around prior, or pokes around currently he knew this or will.

So the point I am making is why would I try and save $2.00 and use a different gasket? Especially if your saying we somehow found a way to recycle used paper gaskets lol.

[Sgt.Gator]

On the stamped vs cast impeller water pumps:

Crawford announced in 2011 their new "secret" to success high flow water pump. They have a pic in this article and talk about it, about half way down: http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/impp-1103-subaru-ej-series-engine-tech/.

To save you the click:
Q: You came across an interesting finding on the factory water pump. Would you care to disclose this information?
A: The water pump (front, right) is a cast turbine that flows more water, whereas the OEM piece (rear, left) allows for water to bypass the blades and does not flow as much water. It is one of our trade secrets of engine building and you are first to hear about it.
http://image.superstreetonline.com/f/30265229+w640+h427+q80+re0+cr1/impp_1103_12_o%2bsubaru_ej_series%2bwater_pump.jpg

If you Google Crawford High Flow Water Pump you'll find multiple threads about it on NASIOC and IWISTI.
Then the community figured out it was nothing more than the Subaru OEM old style cast impeller pump. I think Crawford has now discontinued sales of their high flow pump. It's not on their web page anymore and RallySportDirect shows it discontinued.

[AJW Performance]

On the stamped vs cast impeller water pumps:

Crawford announced in 2011 their new "secret" to success high flow water pump. They have a pic in this article and talk about it, about half way down: http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/impp-1103-subaru-ej-series-engine-tech/.

To save you the click:
Q: You came across an interesting finding on the factory water pump. Would you care to disclose this information?
A: The water pump (front, right) is a cast turbine that flows more water, whereas the OEM piece (rear, left) allows for water to bypass the blades and does not flow as much water. It is one of our trade secrets of engine building and you are first to hear about it.
http://image.superstreetonline.com/f/30265229+w640+h427+q80+re0+cr1/impp_1103_12_o%2bsubaru_ej_series%2bwater_pump.jpg

If you Google Crawford High Flow Water Pump you'll find multiple threads about it on NASIOC and IWISTI.
Then the community figured out it was nothing more than the Subaru OEM old style cast impeller pump. I think Crawford has now discontinued sales of their high flow pump. It's not on their web page anymore and RallySportDirect shows it discontinued.


Thank you for the summary

[bbjones121]

On the stamped vs cast impeller water pumps:

Crawford announced in 2011 their new "secret" to success high flow water pump. They have a pic in this article and talk about it, about half way down: http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/impp-1103-subaru-ej-series-engine-tech/.

To save you the click:
Q: You came across an interesting finding on the factory water pump. Would you care to disclose this information?
A: The water pump (front, right) is a cast turbine that flows more water, whereas the OEM piece (rear, left) allows for water to bypass the blades and does not flow as much water. It is one of our trade secrets of engine building and you are first to hear about it.
http://image.superstreetonline.com/f/30265229+w640+h427+q80+re0+cr1/impp_1103_12_o%2bsubaru_ej_series%2bwater_pump.jpg

If you Google Crawford High Flow Water Pump you'll find multiple threads about it on NASIOC and IWISTI.
Then the community figured out it was nothing more than the Subaru OEM old style cast impeller pump. I think Crawford has now discontinued sales of their high flow pump. It's not on their web page anymore and RallySportDirect shows it discontinued.

I saw this too, but I believe there may be some marketing strategy going on here. Of course fundamentally, and common sense make the cast one appear advantageous. But, no matter what we feel...Why would Subaru use the stamped one in a larger displacement engine? I personally would trust the millions of dollars and many engineers Subaru has access to.

[Pearldrummer7]

I always have heard that one flows more at low rpms, and one more at higher rpms. There was a whole issue a friend had with his supercharged (yup, belt driven supercharger) Impreza where had swapped these and moved his heat problems from idle to high rpm driving, further confirming it.

The cast one :looks: like it should flow more, but I don't know how you could tell other than trial and monitoring

[Mechie3]

Why would Subaru use the stamped one in a larger displacement engine? I personally would trust the millions of dollars and many engineers Subaru has access to.

Money. It's not always about outright performance. Unfortunately, we can never really know without finding the engineer that was involved.

[Wayne Presley]

I saw this too, but I believe there may be some marketing strategy going on here. Of course fundamentally, and common sense make the cast one appear advantageous. But, no matter what we feel...Why would Subaru use the stamped one in a larger displacement engine? I personally would trust the millions of dollars and many engineers Subaru has access to.


If it saved $.50 over 10 million units produced....

[Sgt.Gator]

A stamped steel impeller has to be much cheaper to produce than precision cast. If the difference in performance only appears in high performance situations you can guess which wins in the accounting department.

All said though, I've never had a water cooling problem in my race car using the stamped version. But I never rev over 6500 rpm. At 8,000 it might make a big difference. The 2.5L being a lower rpm engine wouldn't normally need the cast impeller, so they made the switch when the 2.5 came out.

[FFRSpec72]

Why would Subaru use the stamped one in a larger displacement engine?

My JDM EJ207v7 uses cast, but the engine also revs to 8500

[129st]

If it saved $.50 over 10 million units produced....

The usual engineering cost reduction path is to take any cast metal part and redesign it for injection molded plastic. If a plastic part can not handle the temperature or stress, the next path is to redesign it for stamped sheet steel.

[Scargo]

This is w (http://www.licmotorsports.com/blog/2015/02/11/why-we-use-oem-subaru-genuine-water-pumps)hy LIC uses genuine Subaru water pumps (http://www.licmotorsports.com/blog/2015/02/11/why-we-use-oem-subaru-genuine-water-pumps). Other aftermarket, "performance", high flow pumps are made to the Subaru -026, -065, -007 design. Gates kits (TCKWP328RB) are coming with the paper gasket and a pump that is made in China. I did not know this. Yours has the same numbers as mine on the drive hub and shaft. The Chinese version's blades do not come in as far towards the middle. They do not cover the whole face on the casting like the Subaru part does. All my used pumps show some corrosion or rust on the nipples but it is minor compared to yours. Some are supposed to have 17 to 40K on them. Subaru pumps come with a metal gasket.
You want this one, PN 2111AA065 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Genuine-OEM-Subaru-HI-FLO-Impeller-Water-Pump-Kit-Forester-XT-Impreza-WRX-EJ255-/131571404976)if you want to delete the oil heat exchanger (PN 21311AA051) or this one, PN 21111AA026 if you want to retain it (http://www.amazon.com/Subaru-21111AA026-Water-Pump/dp/B00IGZPMW2).

You could say that any of the water pumps would be OK for normal driving. It's the general opinion of enthusiasts who race the cars, that the OEM pumps with the cast impellers are superior for cooling at sustained higher RPMs and the elevated temperatures that race motors see.

Chad, this is another slightly puzzling piece of the puzzle of how your motor was built. Andrew says "I have been working with them for about 12 years myself, collectively the company has about 50 years of Subaru specific experience, ranging from all spectrum's. I have personally tracked a 2008 STi Time Attack car that we used to own (the one displayed in factory Five's open house) This year I tracked a 2013 BRZ for about 15 events personally, it was a pretty fun season. Prior to that I owned a 2007 legacy GT that we built, also a fun car!"
How does Andrew not know about these water pumps till now? Andrew seemed to duck the question when I first brought it up (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showthread.php?19395-Just-an-FYI-Don-t-make-my-mistake&p=218470&viewfull=1#post218470). Then Andrew says later, "I am however interested in looking into why some people like the old style, Scargo posted some external links about it in Chad's thread that I am checking out)" which implies these pumps have never been on his radar screen; someone who races and builds race motors. Not that he was asked to put in the best pump for racing in Chad's motor, but it just amazes me, nonetheless that he'd put a generic Chinese pump in a high-dollar race engine.

[ssssly]

Which water pump is better, is one of those long standing Subaru debates that no-one seems to have a real answer for. Has a folklore around it almost as involved as alien explorer pyramid theories.

Is one of those things I have always wanted to test, but have never got around to since I don't have a flow meter. And the people I know who do and my schedules never lined up right.

They probably both flow enough water for proper circulation and cooling. And I haven't had any real issues running either of them on EJ207 or EJ255 setups. I however also don't run super high horsepower Subaru engines. I generally shoot for around 400hp with my builds, give or take, depending on my turbo de jour. And not wanting to deal with the rebuild schedule that accompanies getting into the 450HP+ builds.

My prime concern with the stamped impeller on an 818 is the possibility for cavitation. Since the cooling system seems to like retaining air bubbles as it is, a water pump causing cavitation certainly wouldn't help.

Interested in if the water pump drive pulley has any dark spots on it?

[AJW Performance]

Scargo,
We use the 2.5l style to this day and probably will unless someone requests otherwise.

Chad's has the 2.5L style, and he did not request anything otherwise 2+ years ago. I hope Chad will acknowledge this because now it seems like I am getting blame for using 2.5l the style pump that he has. We both agreed (Chad and I) to using the Gates kit.

So to confirm, any 2.5L Subaru motor leaving here always has and always will get the 2.5L water pump, the correct part number for the engine. If a customer want's otherwise we can certainly accommodate but it will never be standard to use the 2.0 waterpump on the 2.5 motors. Customer's would most likely freak out for using the "wrong part number" on their engine if we put the 2.0 style water pumps on 2.5 engines.

Chad's motor goals at the time was for us to supply a strong engine that would be good for the 350+ HP range if he decided to upgrade his turbo down the road.

Chinese pump? Gates makes some great products and is also affordable, where they are made does not really matter in my opinion. Most "Japanese" Subaru performance parts are now made in Taiwan/ China. But that is a topic for a different thread, on a different day, which I do not wish to "prove" to anyone at this given time due to the other topics on this forum that need attention.

And to confirm, it is not a high dollar race engine, it is a stage 1 STi block that fit his budget and goals at the time.

PS- That Crawford time attack car you quoted me on above, That had a "high dollar race engine" made by Crawford, A shortblock in the range of $6,000.00 at the time ( more than double of your average stage 1 block) , guess what water pump it had? The 2.5L style.


I am wrapping it up over here, I hope everyone has a good weekend.

[Mulry]

Not true.
There was plenty of opportunity to "make more money" if that is what we wanted to do. For example Chad's setup as is with the new shortblock, used heads, and other donor components (turbo, intake, etc) would sell on average for about $2500.00- $3,000.00 more than what he bought it for. Not going to disclose how much, that is his privacy. If he shopped around prior, or pokes around currently he knew this or will.

So the point I am making is why would I try and save $2.00 and use a different gasket? Especially if your saying we somehow found a way to recycle used paper gaskets lol.

I wasn't trying to imply that at all. I wasn't even referencing you or your work. The question that I was answering was "If used parts were installed, why would an hourly mechanic want to do this? Is he taking the new parts home and selling them on Ebay?" And I've seen that done before, where a shop will put used parts on a car without disclosing them to a customer and pricing the parts installed as new.

I don't have any idea what your relationship was with Chad or the deal that you guys worked out. He may have ordered a new block with good-used parts on it to save money. That's not necessarily an irresponsible choice, and those things happen all the time with racing engines.

[Scargo]

Here's the stock Subaru, OEM stamped steel impeller.
http://www.licmotorsports.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/big-watermark/OEM%2021111AA240.JPG
The made in China, Gates pump doesn't come close to making it from the horizontal arrow point to the left of the vertical arrows. In fact it ends about where the vertical arrows are, so it is narrower than the OEM version and doesn't fully cover that face, which is like a sealing surface. Then, it sits off that beveled sealing surface by around 1.5 mm. A huge gap. So, it does a lot of churning and less pumping. Fluid can escape outward, backwards and upwards through the gaps (after where the vane is bent down). I would think that the gaps and other weaknesses in this design could be significant as RPMs go up and the little vanes can't contain or control the movement of the fluid and the fact that there's no ceiling for much of it. Then it becomes more like an Osterizer than a pump!
The thing is, if you use your car as a grocery getter, just drag race or autocross it then you will not see the sustained extremes that a road race motor sees for a solid half-hour.
I am reminded of going to EFI and having my car tuned for the track. The late Chris S. was brilliant in that he knew the rigors of the track and would not tune to the razor's edge of reliability. When you stress a Subaru motor that much you had bettered do it right. 270 or so WHP is not bad, but look at how many failed motors we have seen because something was not quite right.

[305mouse]

So AJW isn't even going to address the fact that the water pump they put on clearly wasn't new. Looks like it sat in my backyard for two years in upstate NY winters and I dumped salt on it daily.

[AJW Performance]

So AJW isn't even going to address the fact that the water pump they put on clearly wasn't new. Looks like it sat in my backyard for two years in upstate NY winters and I dumped salt on it daily.

I spoke with Kyle he wanted me to ask Chad (which I did) if there was any surface rust on the pulley as here in New England it would (if it was used) but where Chad lives it probably would not.
I already stated and offered to replace the full kit with the brand of his choice but he has purchased elsewhere already.

Kyle also had another idea I will ask him to post or to tell me...

Everything we have on our end says it was a new kit. I am addressing the concerns by trying to provide support and make things right with him.

[AJW Performance]

I wasn't trying to imply that at all. I wasn't even referencing you or your work. The question that I was answering was "If used parts were installed, why would an hourly mechanic want to do this? Is he taking the new parts home and selling them on Ebay?" And I've seen that done before, where a shop will put used parts on a car without disclosing them to a customer and pricing the parts installed as new.

I don't have any idea what your relationship was with Chad or the deal that you guys worked out. He may have ordered a new block with good-used parts on it to save money. That's not necessarily an irresponsible choice, and those things happen all the time with racing engines.

Understood, thank you.

Chads shortblock was new, all the bolt ones were from a donor.
The topic in question now is 2 things;
The most important topic- was the timing belt kit new or used prior to Chad getting it.

Secondly, there is discretion between water pump preference, but that is outside of the AJW to Chad topic or "issue" here so to speak in my opinion, as we clearly state we use the gates timing belt kits unless otherwise requested by the customer, 9 out of 10 motors we build with have the gates timing belt kit, which includes the water pump. We use the part number representing what the engine calls for, some members here are noting a "custom" or hybrid setup if you will and use a different style that was present on the older 2.0 engines because it is claimed to work better.

[Mechie3]

Ajw, scargo wasn't saying you were wrong to put on the 2.5 pump or say that chad requested otherwise. He was simply saying he is surprised that someone working with a company that used to be heavily involved in racing subarus and is involved themselves wasn't aware of the 2.0 pump swap people do as it seems to be a common thing for road racers.

[AJW Performance]

Ajw, scargo wasn't saying you were wrong to put on the 2.5 pump or say that chad requested otherwise. He was simply saying he is surprised that someone working with a company that used to be heavily involved in racing subarus and is involved themselves wasn't aware of the 2.0 pump swap people do as it seems to be a common thing for road racers.

Thank you

[C.Plavan]

Andrew-

There is rust on the pulley- Look at the picture again- on the nose is a rust spot, then around where the belt was not rubbing there are some small spots

http://i.imgur.com/P93b5pvh.jpg

Just so we are keeping track:
1. Bad belt (gouge) (nice guide clearance)
2. Bad and unmatched bearing manufacture idler pulleys (not from a Gates kit)
3. Captain Obvious used/rusty water pump
4. Ported and polished heads yet the exhaust ports were black with carbon build up when new.
5. ????
6. ????
7. ????
8. ????

You are not really helping with anything in this thread besides damage control for yourself. May I please ask that you no longer post in my build thread? You can post in this thread if you own up to your companies errors, and send me some money back, or a new OEM shortblock, otherwise take a hike. You are not adding anything positive. How can one of your old customers be happy with what they are finding on a "Top of the line race motor" that you should of charged me even more for....? This is unacceptable.

I'm fine with you addressing the other thread, but this one is mine.

[metalmaker12]

Andrew-

There is rust on the pulley- Look at the picture again- on the nose is a rust spot, then around where the belt was not rubbing there are some small spots

http://i.imgur.com/P93b5pvh.jpg

Just so we are keeping track:
1. Bad belt (gouge) (nice guide clearance)
2. Bad and unmatched bearing manufacture idler pulleys (not from a Gates kit)
3. Captain Obvious used/rusty water pump
4. Ported and polished heads yet the exhaust ports were black with carbon build up when new.
5. ????
6. ????
7. ????
8. ????

You are not really helping with anything in this thread besides damage control for yourself. May I please ask that you no longer post in my build thread? You can post in this thread if you own up to your companies errors, and send me some money back, or a new OEM shortblock, otherwise take a hike. You are not adding anything positive. How can one of your old customers be happy with what they are finding on a "Top of the line race motor" that you should of charged me even more for....? This is unacceptable.

I'm fine with you addressing the other thread, but this one is mine.


Agreed ...AJW your name is dirt on here and everywhere.

[Flamshackle]

fair call

[AZPete]

fair call
AZPete (former AJW customer)

[C.Plavan]

The new owner of the Spyder came and picked up the car yesterday. Sniff, sniff. He sent me this picture today
http://i.imgur.com/1bh5pNnl.jpg


I'm really getting ancy to work on the 818R, but am at a standstill until I get I get the new waterpump. I might just pop off a cam/valve cover to see if it has ARP headstuds in the mean time.

[Scargo]

Have you run a compression test on it? Leak-down?

[C.Plavan]

Have you run a compression test on it? Leak-down?

No. I don't think that is needed yet.

[129st]

Any Spyder nostalgia will evaporate when the NP01 arrives in your garage (race ready or in parts.)

[AZPete]

Did you send an oil sample to Blackstone?

[C.Plavan]

Did you send an oil sample to Blackstone?

Ill have to do it after next test. I didn't keep a good sample from when I drained it.

[Frank818]

Man that scenery is perfect. You live in a kick a** place, man!

[C.Plavan]

I'll just put this here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgYhyNgVLlY&list=FL9wU3oWJzomXePV8MsyHQtw



Chassis #19 incoming in March.... (or #20.... I requested #20 since we keep 2's in our numbers to honor my Great Grandpa who raced cars back in the early 1900's). 22 cars sold to date- 12 on the West Coast.

My Great Grandpa Thompson in 1916 in a car he built himself.
http://i.imgur.com/uBcsvsQl.jpg

[Sgt.Gator]

The NP01 is awesome, especially for the price. Where I race the windows would be a problem, our conference has a rule that forbids driver and passenger side windows up. I double checked with the conference stewards, windows must be down or not installed. And I'm wondering if I could climb out that driver window in the event of a post crash fire where the driver door is jammed closed.
Very cool contrast with your great grandpa's car!
Hope everyone had a safe and happy Thanksgiving! We had a foot of snow and it's -5 degrees here this morning!

[C.Plavan]

The NP01 is awesome, especially for the price. Where I race the windows would be a problem, our conference has a rule that forbids driver and passenger side windows up. I double checked with the conference stewards, windows must be down or not installed. And I'm wondering if I could climb out that driver window in the event of a post crash fire where the driver door is jammed closed.
Very cool contrast with your great grandpa's car!
Hope everyone had a safe and happy Thanksgiving! We had a foot of snow and it's -5 degrees here this morning!

This is a racecar- If the stewards don't see that, I would be running with a different group :). There is so much room inside, it's ridiculous. You can fit two Cool Suit ice chests on either side of you.

[Frank818]

You are building that car?
Huge step fwd the 818!

[C.Plavan]

You are building that car?
Huge step fwd the 818!

I'm still undecided. I would like to, but I want to race immediately. They charge $8500 to build it, which is alot of cash, but might be worth it. This is a top of the line racecar manufacturer/builder (Panoz, Deltawing, Indycar). It would be nice to have the racecar delivered ready to go. I will have to do alot of tinkering on it when it gets here.

I have been receiving PM's if I still on plan on selling the 818R. The answer is yes. I do not need three racecars. I'm still going to tinker with it in the mean time. If you want it, shoot me an offer and we can discuss.

[C.Plavan]

The new water pump is in, new timing belt kit is in, timing is set. I installed a Company 23 Timing belt guide (Thanks for the idea Gator), slick little piece. I just need to put the timing covers back on, throw the underdrive pulley on, then fill it with fluids.

The hardest part was scraping the old water pump gasket off..... The OEM metal gasket is the only way to go.

New water pump vs. used water pump.

http://i.imgur.com/GTYEvWKl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/C7PgUBcl.jpg?2

[Scargo]

Really nice to find the Company23 adjustable guide at a fair price ($55). Only problem is the additional $10+ for shipping (from IIR). I have a Tomioka that I will be unloading because it is not adjustable and it does not match the radius of the belt on my pulley. There is no ability to improve on the inconsistent gap. The $7.00 difference is well worth it to me.
RE, pump: Nasty water there in Cali, eh?

[Flamshackle]

The new water pump is in, new timing belt kit is in, timing is set. I installed a Company 23 Timing belt guide (Thanks for the idea Gator), slick little piece. I just need to put the timing covers back on, throw the underdrive pulley on, then fill it with fluids.

The hardest part was scraping the old water pump gasket off..... The OEM metal gasket is the only way to go.

New water pump vs. used water pump.

http://i.imgur.com/GTYEvWKl.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/C7PgUBcl.jpg?2

Cant wait to hear how this all works out for you Chad. I am crossing my legs, arms and toes as well as the obligatory fingers just to make sure!!!!!

[Sgt.Gator]

Cant wait to hear how this all works out for you Chad. I am crossing my legs, arms and toes as well as the obligatory fingers just to make sure!!!!!

+1 !

[RetroRacing]

Pleasegodpleasegodpleasegodpleasegodpleasegodpleas egodpleasegodpleasegod!

[bbjones121]

When is next race?

[Flamshackle]

When is next race?

yea; when do I need to go to prayer!!!???

[C.Plavan]

I need to make time to button her up and go to a test day on the 13th (next weekend). I'm racing at Laguna Seca this weekend (BMW), so I have be good all week with the wife. :)

Btw- the NP01 qualified 10th overall at the 25 hours of Thunderhill last night!

[C.Plavan]

Hopefully it does not rain on Sunday- and the 818R runs like this :P

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a1e18SEnX8Q&feature=share

[Pearldrummer7]

That's a sick video. You need to update that signature with your NP01! Any idea when it arrives yet?

[C.Plavan]

That's a sick video. You need to update that signature with your NP01! Any idea when it arrives yet?

I'm Chassis #20 so it is scheduled for March sometime. There will be some part redesigns, so I hope it does not delay it. The Sequential Trans 6-speed is epic. No Clutch upshift/downshift.... #NoLiftShiftBro

The 818R may have a buyer. Friend of a friend is really interested in Sundays test.

[Pearldrummer7]

I'm Chassis #20 so it is scheduled for March sometime. There will be some part redesigns, so I hope it does not delay it. The Sequential Trans 6-speed is epic. No Clutch upshift/downshift.... #NoLiftShiftBro

The 818R may have a buyer. Friend of a friend is really interested in Sundays test.

Sunday's test excites me for 818R track viability, but the potential sell is good news for you.

I really wanted a dog engagement gearbox for that exact reason....nothing is cooler than banging clutchless shifts at the speed of light.

[xxguitarist]

Having ridden Thunderhill, there are a few areas that would be terrifying without the normal visual cues, like the water tower for #9

[Tamra]

Sounds like you should hope your 818 runs like a Miata... http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/all-four-of-mazdas-brand-new-global-mx-5-cups-survived-1746534598

Only 1 of 3 of the NP01's managed to finish the race. Hopefully they'll get an upgraded halfshaft in time for yours. They are pretty awesome looking though!

[Sgt.Gator]

Very cool video. I'd love to crank some laps in that!
However in looking at the driver exchange...there's no way I could get out that window in the event that "door" doesn't open. Maybe if the door had explosive ejection bolts.....

[C.Plavan]

Sounds like you should hope your 818 runs like a Miata... http://blackflag.jalopnik.com/all-four-of-mazdas-brand-new-global-mx-5-cups-survived-1746534598

Only 1 of 3 of the NP01's managed to finish the race. Hopefully they'll get an upgraded halfshaft in time for yours. They are pretty awesome looking though!

Only 2 raced of the 3, the third was a display only/parts car. The one that didn't finish, well, was kinda driving dumb in alot of peoples opinion.

[C.Plavan]

Very cool video. I'd love to crank some laps in that!
However in looking at the driver exchange...there's no way I could get out that window in the event that "door" doesn't open. Maybe if the door had explosive ejection bolts.....

You could break it- it weighs 2.5 pounds.

[C.Plavan]

So I worked on the car tonight. I put the timing covers on, threw on the new pulley, torqued everything down. Then checked the accessory belts. I knew I would have to get new sizes with the underdrive pulley. The Drysump pump to pulley belt- no problem. I got that belt. The 5 rib Alternator to crank (No PS)..... No luck finding a shorter one... anywhere. I may just try and modify the alternator adjustment turnbuckle (I bought Mikes alternator kit) to take the additional slack out. I really do not want to pull the crank pulley off again, but might have to.

There is a Gates K050271 that is 27.16 inches, but my current gates is listed 28.2 inches. It might work, but I have to order it.

Any thoughts from the 818 Brain trust? I'm hoping Mike used standard on the turnbuckle instead of metric, I might just be able to grab a longer turnbuckle at the hardware store. I'll check it out in the AM.

[Hindsight]

The belt I'm using is a Micro-V AT K050275, which it looks like is the same as your current gates (28.2) and I'm using Mike's kit. I did relocate the lower attachment point of Mike's strut though (due to an oil temp sensor I added) which changed things a bit and required a different spacer sleeve. If it were me, in a hurry, I'd just do what you mentioned (longer turnbuckle). Should be easy to check to see if it's standard or metric. I'm betting standard.

[Sgt.Gator]

My Gates catalog says the K050271 is 27 3/4 " . There's nothing smaller in 5 rib until K050200 at 20 3/4".

You can usually run a 4 rib belt on a 5 rib system with no problem, lots of guys do it. Especially since you've eliminated the load of the power steering pump. Your Gates choices there are 27 3/4, 25 3/4, 25 1/4, 24 1/2, 22 5/8.

OR...Is there room to mount a gutted power steering pump, effectively acting as an idler pulley? Or something along those lines.... Gates also sells idler pulleys.

[C.Plavan]

My Gates catalog says the K050271 is 27 3/4 " . There's nothing smaller in 5 rib until K050200 at 20 3/4".

You can usually run a 4 rib belt on a 5 rib system with no problem, lots of guys do it. Especially since you've eliminated the load of the power steering pump. Your Gates choices there are 27 3/4, 25 3/4, 25 1/4, 24 1/2, 22 5/8.

OR...Is there room to mount a gutted power steering pump, effectively acting as an idler pulley? Or something along those lines.... Gates also sells idler pulleys.

Thanks once again Gator- 4 Rib does make more sense. I'll probably just go that route. I was just worried about the 4 rib walking off and taking out the Dry Sump belt.

[C.Plavan]

Luck would have it, it's supposed to rain on Sunday. I may have to wait another week to test.

[longislandwrx]

chad maybe you can put a stack of washers under the alternator bracket to space it up a half inch although it may not help without a longer turnbuckle.

[C.Plavan]

chad maybe you can put a stack of washers under the alternator bracket to space it up a half inch although it may not help without a longer turnbuckle.

I just ordered a couple turnbuckles from Summit. I did start the car up today. Just waiting on those turnbuckles to show up for alternator adjustment. No leaks, good pressure (higher also with 10cm oil pump, but it was also colder outside), no surprises. I'm trying to go test Saturday, but I'm not sure since I'm working out of town all week.

I also was sent a new NP01 video- 24 cars have been sold so far, 11 of them are in CA! :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCMJXbgqg8k&app=desktop

[metros]

Cool vid

[Aero STI]

That is a great video. I want one that's street legal.

[Sgt.Gator]

Great Video. I hope your resident gremlin doesn't find it attractive too.If I were buying your 818 I'd want to wait until the NP01 was in your garage so maybe the gremlin will move out of the 818!

[C.Plavan]

Great Video. I hope your resident gremlin doesn't find it attractive too.If I were buying your 818 I'd want to wait until the NP01 was in your garage so maybe the gremlin will move out of the 818!

HAHA. There is a big difference between the two. Since I have the only known properly built race ready 818R still, (for 20min races :) ) it's not fair. The 818R specific Gremlin falls on me. You can't count the FFR 818R's cuz I think their Gremlin is alot meaner than mine! (KABOOM)

I really, really, really, have a good feeling about the next test. When I was running the car yesterday- I could not get the oil hot like before after extended reving (burping coolant). I think the Gremlin jumped into the trunk of the Spyder when I sold it. The next day after buying it, the owner said the car would not start it. Battery was bad. :)

[Flamshackle]

HAHA. There is a big difference between the two. Since I have the only known properly built race ready 818R still, (for 20min races :) ) it's not fair. The 818R specific Gremlin falls on me. You can't count the FFR 818R's cuz I think their Gremlin is alot meaner than mine! (KABOOM)

I really, really, really, have a good feeling about the next test. When I was running the car yesterday- I could not get the oil hot like before after extended reving (burping coolant). I think the Gremlin jumped into the trunk of the Spyder when I sold it. The next day after buying it, the owner said the car would not start it. Battery was bad. :)

I have a good feeling that you have a good feeling!

All the best for the test!

[Scargo]

"Since I have the only known properly built race ready 818R still, (for 20min races :) ) it's not fair. The 818R specific Gremlin falls on me. You can't count the FFR 818R's cuz I think their Gremlin is alot meaner than mine! (KABOOM)"...

I have not been scouring the forum recently and am curious what FFR is doing with the gray mule? It is supposed to have a dry sump. I think it has a six-speed. What are their racing plans/development goals? Are we all left to fend for ourselves? They seem almost secretive. Embarrassed with their performance? I remember their first outing at Watkins Glen, when they ran away from everything, only to have the crappy five-speed break.
Have they even reached out to you at all?

[Mitch Wright]

I just reach out via e-mail to Jim Schenck every month or so or just when I have a question that pops up. I also ask how the 818R testing that FFR has been doing and what they have found. From what I understand FFR has had one or both cars out a handful of tracks over the summer.

[RetroRacing]

Trying man, really trying to get it done, testing in March
Cross fingers.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I really, really, really, have a good feeling about the next test. When I was running the car yesterday- I could not get the oil hot like before after extended reving (burping coolant).

Hi Chad,
I know you went from a 11mm to 10mm oil pump. new timing belt and water pump. Undersize crank pulley.
What are the other changes since you last outing?
Bob

[Canadian818]

I just reach out via e-mail to Jim Schenck every month or so or just when I have a question that pops up. I also ask how the 818R testing that FFR has been doing and what they have found. From what I understand FFR has had one or both cars out a handful of tracks over the summer.

You'd think they would share a little feedback....

[Mitch Wright]

All I can tell you is Jim has been very helpful and willing to share information when I have asked. I am making an assumption here but I gathered the development of the Coupe and the testing that they did kept the crew really busy. I am not making excuses for FFR but I do have experienced being consumed in projects.

[C.Plavan]

I'm not testing today. It's raining again. I have no desire to be out with a 3rd party DE group in the rain (where the street car guys think they are racecar drivers in the rain -they tend to do bonehead stuff when near real racecars). All they end up doing is get stuck in the mud going off, mud the track, stop the session for tow trucks, and crash into each other.

I have the potential buyer coming to look at it today instead to check it out.

As far as FFR and sharing stuff. It is still the same and nothing has changed. They don't share anything. You have to talk with Jim to get any information. He is great about it, but they really should communicate better without us having to track them down. FFR has really dropped the ball.

I do have to add that FFR should take a page from the Elan Motorsport guys- WAY more professional and share everything with their customers. Granted, you spend alot more money for a car, but FFR is selling alot more cars. The Elan guys went out of their way to invite me to the factory when they start on my car. That way I can turn some wrenches on my chassis for a day, answer all my questions, pour my custom seat to my body, and get the full tour. They are also sharing info about the 25hr race with me, failures, and what they are changing and fixing (without me having to ask like with FFR).

(Bob) I have just changed the oil pump, all the used timing belt stuff and idler pulleys, crank pulley, the used water pump to the better version for racing (new), and changed the Drysump hoses (venting to the original way I had it).

[Mechie3]

I do have to add that FFR should take a page from the Elan Motorsport guys- WAY more professional and share everything with their customers. Granted, you spend alot more money for a car, but FFR is selling alot more cars.

I've always looked at things like that this way: Dress where you want to be, not where you are. Where I work (day job, not Zerodb) they don't promote you to the next level until you've proven you can perform at that level by actually performing a level above for at least a year. They don't promote and hope you don't fail. Granted, it affects our turn over as people think they're due for a promotion based solely on tenure and not performance, but people rarely are promoted and then falter. Want to be high level and high class? Don't wait until you are to act the part.

[Wayne Presley]

Want to be high level and high class? Don't wait until you are to BE the part.

Works well in all aspects of life, I made a slight change to Craig's quote...

[C.Plavan]

Works well in all aspects of life, I made a slight change to Craig's quote...

You both are Philosophical Car Masters. Well said.

[Zach34]

I'd like FFR to publish a lot more about the R testing/development just like everybody else, but FFR and Elan are not even the same type of company. FFR is still modeled around the sort of grass-roots, anyone-can-build-a-cool-car kind of concept. The driving force behind their development is value, and you can't deny they've nailed it - the kits are pretty darn good for what you pay. One of the selling-point quotes from that Elan promo video was "a set of (Toyo) tires will cost you $880 and will last you 2-3 weekends". Of the very few FFR customers that race their cars, how many do you think would balk at that kind of expense? Most of us would like to spend less than that on wheels.

If I had the money I'd be in line for an NP01 in a second, but I just don't. The way I see it, right now I can spend 60-70 grand for a car that will probably work very well (NP01), or I can spend 30-40 grand for a car that might work if I invest a ton of time and effort into it (818R). Well, I don't have 70 grand, so... I'm going to build the best 818R I possibly can. It might not work, it might not be fast, I might crash it and get hurt, who knows. I'm just going to try to stay positive about it and have fun.

[C.Plavan]

I'd like FFR to publish a lot more about the R testing/development just like everybody else, but FFR and Elan are not even the same type of company. FFR is still modeled around the sort of grass-roots, anyone-can-build-a-cool-car kind of concept. The driving force behind their development is value, and you can't deny they've nailed it - the kits are pretty darn good for what you pay. One of the selling-point quotes from that Elan promo video was "a set of (Toyo) tires will cost you $880 and will last you 2-3 weekends". Of the very few FFR customers that race their cars, how many do you think would balk at that kind of expense? Most of us would like to spend less than that on wheels.

If I had the money I'd be in line for an NP01 in a second, but I just don't. The way I see it, right now I can spend 60-70 grand for a car that will probably work very well (NP01), or I can spend 30-40 grand for a car that might work if I invest a ton of time and effort into it (818R). Well, I don't have 70 grand, so... I'm going to build the best 818R I possibly can. It might not work, it might not be fast, I might crash it and get hurt, who knows. I'm just going to try to stay positive about it and have fun.

Racing a car is expensive- if you are going to be balking about $880 for race tires that last 2-3 race weekends, you are really going to have your eyes opened when you do race a 818R or any other car. That is cheap!!!! Heck, 818R race tires are $1300......

Yes, I am lucky I can afford to buy an NP01, I sold a few toys to make it feasable, but it's still a big chunk of change- just in parts, my 818R is half the cost of a NP01. Now figure my labor.....

It does not matter if you spend $10k, $20k or $70k for a car. Customer Service is customer service, support is support. It is what separates the men from the boys in business. FFR really needs a PR person in their ranks.

[C.Plavan]

BTW- Sale of my 818R is Pending :)

[Scargo]

I hope that you have stipulated that he/she must report back to us about the car.

[C.Plavan]

I hope that you have stipulated that he/she must report back to us about the car.

I'm still going to test it for him. He is an Engineer, so it will be in great hands.

[Santiago]

BTW- Sale of my 818R is Pending :)

Congrats on the pending sale...wish I could've taken it off your hands. =)

I also second that I hope we keep getting updates on it when it's traded hands. Love to see what it's capable of when fully sorted.

Best,
-j

[Brando]

Hey Chad. Been out of the loop for a while and catching up on the threads. Insane you purchased a NP01, I have been eyeing those since you introduced that beast to me this past summer. I read one of the NP01's posted a best lap of 1:55 and the other a 1:51 at 25hrs of Thunderhill. Pretty impressive times running 185hp.

I'm curious what made the NP01 more appealing to you than the SLC?

[Wayne Presley]

Is there a ghost in the house? It's Christmas not Halloween Brando...