Body work...Time...What am I missing here??

[hawk7]

I do apologize if this has been covered and they could be a very simply explanation but I just can figure it out. Reading the forums and the FAQ, mainly the question and answer sparked this question.


How long does it take to build the car?

The average Factory Five GTM builder spends about 600 hours (estimated) to complete the project.
　
Now reading the forums, as I understand, it can take almost this much time on body work alone. I know everyone has different skill sets but this says the "average". If FFR designs the chassis and the body is done in house as well how come it requires so much body work? With that being said how can they produce a kit that no only does not require much body work or paint, but it is 15K less than the GTM. Whatever methods they are using to produce this in the 818 I would think would bleed over to the GTM. I just wonder why the GTM requires so much more body work than the 818. Again, I understand there may be a very simple explanation for this, if there is, can someone please break it down for me.

[flotowngtm]

The GTM is a hand laid fiberglass process, the 818 uses a new process from what I have been told it eliminates many of the issues with the GTM and the new gel coating applied to the 818 is good enough to buff, polish and done! Its just old tech vs new tech. Every GTM body has issues some dont fit this way some dont fit some other way. The process its built by just does not yield the exact same part everytime.
Maby someone can elaborate on the 818 process as I have just heard a few things.
But the 600hr estimate from the web site.................... Yea that got me too!

[LCD Gauges]

As a first time builder, I can tell you that the "research" is probalby included in that figure.

In my experience, the amount of effort away from the car is equally important when sourcing parts,
finding work-arounds, picking up parts, meeting with people, etc.

Another thing to consider is the moch-up time, and re-assembly. I've wired parts of the car twice,
and other areas up to three times. Either due to replacing parts, repositioning items for go-kart stage,
or last cut/routing for final finish.

2-3 months to build if you're working 8 hours a day, every day straight. Not a bad estimate.

If I were to build a second GTM, it would take me half the time (not including body work) because I know
what to buy, were to get it, where to place it, how to route it.

[carbon fiber]

aren't the 818 sprayed gel-coat and hand laid glass? the thermoform panels haven't been done yet. the production parts coming out now have gel coat and fiberglass.

[flotowngtm]

Its a different gel coat than the one on the GTM.
"New technology in the forming of composite body panels which enable a no-paint finish".

"Not only is the 818 body being designed in CAD, it will be manufactured with an all-new process called thermoform molding whereby individual panels will be made and delivered with a painted finish. The composite body shape is fully digitized and all tooling is being made from this digital source, a true first for Factory Five that promises to deliver tight tolerance parts that don’t need body work preparation and painting."
Thats from the FFR web site. Carbon Fiber I really hope that FF is not doing the same old thing with this body and then going to change it at a latter date! I would hate to be one of the first guys to scoop one up if that were the case.

[Taz Rules]

Another factor may be the origins of the design itself.

The 818 was designed in-house, from scratch by Factory Five, using Solidworks CAD software.

IIRC, the GTM was a purchased design. Given the assymetry of the body, I'd guess that FFR purchased the molds in physical form, not in CAD format. I'm guessing for the Gen 2, the modifications were made from either the original molds, or scans of the original molds, which would have included all of their physical flaws.

I'm not making excuses for FFR here, and personally, I'd like to see the body redesigned digitally and symmetrical. However, that doesn't appear to be the case, and this is my best guess as to why.

[shinn497]

818 is not being thermoformed yet but will change the manufacturing process. I don't know what the diffference but I've seen this confirmed a lot of times.

It still does not require as much paint/bodywork as a gtm. I think this is because of the gel coat + lack of seems + superior panel fitments. In other words, they took what they learned from the GTM and improved upon it.

[fact5racer]

Also there are no seams on the 818 because it is made up of a bunch of small parts whereas the GTM main body and nose are huge in comparison and the forms are made with joints ., i.e. seams.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Another factor may be the origins of the design itself.

The 818 was designed in-house, from scratch by Factory Five, using Solidworks CAD software.

IIRC, the GTM was a purchased design....

Nope. GTM is an in-house design.

Jeff

[flotowngtm]

You sure about that Jeff?
I thought the GTM was a purchase also, of the VBM 4000. I know FFR could not admit it. And really it dosent bother me at all. But from what I have read on the old forum it was a purchase of that body and the chassis was all designed in house.

[Kalstar]

You sure about that Jeff?
I thought the GTM was a purchase also, of the VBM 4000. I know FFR could not admit it. And really it dosent bother me at all. But from what I have read on the old forum it was a purchase of that body and the chassis was all designed in house.

This again.......

The GTM was an aborted GT40 replica project. It is no secret that F5R is pretty close with Ford motor racing. When Ford was told about the kit F5R was producing they asked for F5R to hold off as Ford was about to produce their own new GT40 or shortened to GT. F5R then took the R&D they had, added their own touches, created a modified frame, extensively modeled the VBM and then created the GTM. The GTM is very much influence by the VBM, but it was due to Ford that we have the GTM and not a replica GT40.

[flotowngtm]

Kalstar that's an interesting story, but it just doesn't add up. Not saying it's not true as I didn't even know FFR existed back in that time. But lets think about it like this. "When Ford was told about the kit F5R was producing they asked for F5R to hold off as Ford was about to produce their own new GT40 or shortened to GT"
So Ford is about to come out with a 150K GT supercar, paying dues to the original GT-40. At about the same time little old FFR is about to drop a GT-40 replica.
Why would Ford ask FFR to hold off on their GT-40 replica?
First there was already at least 3 good GT-40 replicas on the market!
And second if FFR was going to clone the GT-40 why would ford care? Its not like it in anyway would have taken from their sales!
Why would FFR GT-40 replica be so amazing compared to all the Superformance and everyone's else's GT-40 replica that it could have taken the spot light or sales away from Ford dropping the 2005 Ford GT??? That just does not add up to me.
What I am saying is, there were already GT-40 replicas on the market! So why would Ford have a problem with FFR coming out with theirs, how would that specific GT-40 replica take away from Ford dropping the Ford GT?
And if they " extensively modeled the VBM and then created the GTM " then that means that it’s a VBM 4000... Or a clone of the VBM 4000. If you look at the FFR GTM 200 prototype and look at the VBM you really can't tell them apart! The useless hump in the center of the hood on the Gen 1 was because the VBM had a one piece windshield wiper not two piece like the Corvette. It got scraped on the Gen 2.
The VBM 4000 used a V6 so that might explain why my V8 is zero inches away from the firewall. That’s usually what happens when you drop a V8 engine in a bay that was designed for a V6.
I am not saying that this is not the true story, but to me it just doesn't seem like the more likely one.

[Kalstar]

Kalstar that's an interesting story, but it just doesn't add up. Not saying it's not true as I didn't even know FFR existed back in that time. But lets think about it like this. "When Ford was told about the kit F5R was producing they asked for F5R to hold off as Ford was about to produce their own new GT40 or shortened to GT"
So Ford is about to come out with a 150K GT supercar, paying dues to the original GT-40. At about the same time little old FFR is about to drop a GT-40 replica.
Why would Ford ask FFR to hold off on their GT-40 replica?
First there was already at least 3 good GT-40 replicas on the market!
And second if FFR was going to clone the GT-40 why would ford care? Its not like it in anyway would have taken from their sales!
Why would FFR GT-40 replica be so amazing compared to all the Superformance and everyone's else's GT-40 replica that it could have taken the spot light or sales away from Ford dropping the 2005 Ford GT??? That just does not add up to me.
What I am saying is, there were already GT-40 replicas on the market! So why would Ford have a problem with FFR coming out with theirs, how would that specific GT-40 replica take away from Ford dropping the Ford GT?
And if they " extensively modeled the VBM and then created the GTM " then that means that it’s a VBM 4000... Or a clone of the VBM 4000. If you look at the FFR GTM 200 prototype and look at the VBM you really can't tell them apart! The useless hump in the center of the hood on the Gen 1 was because the VBM had a one piece windshield wiper not two piece like the Corvette. It got scraped on the Gen 2.
The VBM 4000 used a V6 so that might explain why my V8 is zero inches away from the firewall. That’s usually what happens when you drop a V8 engine in a bay that was designed for a V6.
I am not saying that this is not the true story, but to me it just doesn't seem like the more likely one.

My information is directly form Jim. He would know since he designed the car. I also asked Dave point blank and he said it was closely modeled after the VBM but that it started as a GT40 replica that was aborted for their own design.

Jim himself has posted the same info over on the old site (before ffcars). As for other company's with their GT40 kits, none of them (that I know of) are supplied with free engines and parts from Ford in exchange for using F5R creations for Ford R&D as well as on Fords show circuits.

That all said, and back on topic. The body could be better but I have a strong suspicion the the GTM will get the new technology the 818 has in the very near future.

[Jeff Kleiner]

You sure about that Jeff?

Yes, and so is Jim Schenck.

Jeff

[hawk7]

Thank you for everyone who took the time, from both forums, to answer my post. I do hope that FFR will update the molds on the GTM using the same techniques and technology going into the 818. Steven K. made a statement you either pay FFR or pay a body shop, I personally would much rather pay FFR because when dealing with a body shop you can get nickel and dimed to death. I’d much rather know the piece’s fit together properly with minimal work. And I think others have made this observation as well as FFR would sell more GTMs because the finish product is stunning.

Also, in terms of costs, when you get the information from FFR it really gives you the impression that this can be completed for 35 to 50K. Going through their literature, when they include the test from ’07 in Car and Driver, the car tested supposedly cost 60K and this was with a z06 engine and upgraded trans. So the layman would look at it as average 35-50 and 60 if I go crazy (I know the test is old and you have to factor in inflation). But if you do not read the forums I think you would get the wrong impression on what it takes to complete a nice GTM.

I just hope there is a Gen3 and the bodywork issues are addressed. It is too good of a design to not update.

[crash]

Also, in terms of costs, when you get the information from FFR it really gives you the impression that this can be completed for 35 to 50K. Going through their literature, when they include the test from ’07 in Car and Driver, the car tested supposedly cost 60K and this was with a z06 engine and upgraded trans. So the layman would look at it as average 35-50 and 60 if I go crazy (I know the test is old and you have to factor in inflation). But if you do not read the forums I think you would get the wrong impression on what it takes to complete a nice GTM.

I just hope there is a Gen3 and the bodywork issues are addressed. It is too good of a design to not update.

Again, a very decent GTM can be had for $50k.