Metalmaker's build thread begins

[Wayne Presley]

I'd set up the automatically pump to run any time the motor is running, then if wanted an overide switch run the pump in between sessions/runs.

[metalmaker12]

On the Subaru with factory ECU, If Hot, Do the fans continue to run after the key is off?

Edit: Never mind, I see one side if the fan relays is on the ignition circuit. It cannot run after key is off.

You can tune the fans to run all the time in the on position/running. I am

[metalmaker12]

Finished up the pin plates and rear bonnet mesh and trim, also heat exchanger and pump are all wired in image.jpgimage.jpg, waiting on machine shop for my engine

[AZPete]

You might want to rethink your speaker mounts.

[metalmaker12]

Lol

[BrandonDrums]

So earlier guys were talking about the risk of heat soak on an AWIC setup on long road courses. Doing an oversized radiator, oversized Heat Exchanger and high-flow water pump will help but what about borrowing the fuel cooler idea for the AWIC setup? Instead of running ice through the water tank, what about running a small evaporator core through the box? Then instead of dumping ice in it which eventually melts, you can toggle on the AC when the water temps start to rise.

It's all aluminium, could be fabbed up pretty easy...

[metalmaker12]

So earlier guys were talking about the risk of heat soak on an AWIC setup on long road courses. Doing an oversized radiator, oversized Heat Exchanger and high-flow water pump will help but what about borrowing the fuel cooler idea for the AWIC setup? Instead of running ice through the water tank, what about running a small evaporator core through the box? Then instead of dumping ice in it which eventually melts, you can toggle on the AC when the water temps start to rise.
It's all aluminium, could be fabbed up pretty easy...

This idea has crossed my mind as well, but it will have to be in time and over some testing.

[Scargo]

An interesting idea. Way over my head except for anecdotal information I can offer. There are thermoelectric cooling plates which could be attached to the exterior of an intercooler; possibly even built into it. Takes alternator/battery power to operate. An A/C requires power. I don't know what the trade-offs are but if the battery is sitting there anyway... why not use it? Perhaps the best application might be autocross or short track events where the power in the battery is like free power... or cheating and getting away with it. Perhaps the 818 could use a giant battery in the front to positively affect weight distribution and add ballast, if needed?

A/C still has to get rid of heat. Where do you do that? A condenser coil in front of the engine's radiator just heats up the engine a little more unless you have excess radiator capacity to begin with. Perhaps you need the added weight in front (see above)? It adds long lines down the car. I already dislike the radiator being in front and the lines running from front to back.
I haven't seen anyone using the side intakes for anything. That air could be channeled into radiators and ducted out the back without letting it mix with engine compartment air.
I think only in terms of a racing environment. However, if it's a street car and you lose a little power from heat what's the big deal? Heat-soak is probably only going to occur in racing conditions.

[Wayne Presley]

Guys, after playing with my AWIC on the dyno with limited low speed air flow over the HE and seeing only a 9° change over nearly 2 hours and 15+ pulls, I'm sure that in a 30 minute on track the temps will still be in control.

[nkw8181]

I think Wayne has designed a great system ("plug" I know), and I'm going to take a play from my roommates play book. I'll be working on something and he will ask "why are you over complicating it?" and I'll say " I didn't think I was". He follows up by showing me the very simple way that should have been obvious which sometimes includes removing the complexity I just added. I say all this because I had considered using the stock A/C to cool the AWIC. I decided against it on the premise that the delta gain in performance seems negligible. I would think that in order to make any cooling addition worth wild it would need to add atleast 20 maybe 30 degrees delta T. Since the T is close to ambient I would need to have the inlet temp drop well below ambient. The power loss that occurs from having the A/C pump vs the potential gain wasn't enticing enough for me. I decided that for me it would be a wash or loss in overall performance as well as adding complexity. Perhaps the battery powered idea could work in short bursts. What kind of delta T do you think you could get without draining the battery before the session is over? This is just my .02 but thought I'd chime in since it is something I have looked into and I want to "try" to give back since I've learned so much from everyone.

[metalmaker12]

Guys, after playing with my AWIC on the dyno with limited low speed air flow over the HE and seeing only a 9° change over nearly 2 hours and 15+ pulls, I'm sure that in a 30 minute on track the temps will still be in control.

This data will be my evidence that the kit is good as is for every application.

[JAubin]

Regarding Thermoelectric Modules, the company I work for manufactures them, and even the most expensive ones on the market are really inefficient at higher heat loads (ie the cooling loads necessary to drop the volume of air coming into a motor). I'm not sure how many Watts are dissipated by an intercooler in a turbo motor offhand, but it's significant enough that you would need to put an awful lot of current into the system for it to work effectively. And from what I've seen you might need ~200W to move ~300W from a system (and the heat rejection would need to be much higher is my guess). These devices are excellent for applications that have a small temp differential and low power, and/or need very precise temp control...but a refrigeration cycle crushes them on efficieny at higher load applications.

Based on what I've seen/read I'm planning on going AWIC, as it's good insurance for your investment, regardless if you're making 250 or 350 hp IMHO.

[BrandonDrums]

An interesting idea. Way over my head except for anecdotal information I can offer. There are thermoelectric cooling plates which could be attached to the exterior of an intercooler; possibly even built into it. Takes alternator/battery power to operate. An A/C requires power. I don't know what the trade-offs are but if the battery is sitting there anyway... why not use it? Perhaps the best application might be autocross or short track events where the power in the battery is like free power... or cheating and getting away with it. Perhaps the 818 could use a giant battery in the front to positively affect weight distribution and add ballast, if needed?

A/C still has to get rid of heat. Where do you do that? A condenser coil in front of the engine's radiator just heats up the engine a little more unless you have excess radiator capacity to begin with. Perhaps you need the added weight in front (see above)? It adds long lines down the car. I already dislike the radiator being in front and the lines running from front to back.
I haven't seen anyone using the side intakes for anything. That air could be channeled into radiators and ducted out the back without letting it mix with engine compartment air.
I think only in terms of a racing environment. However, if it's a street car and you lose a little power from heat what's the big deal? Heat-soak is probably only going to occur in racing conditions.

I like the thermocouple Idea for many if not mostly other reasons. I've often wondered why they haven't been used on modern Hybrids, cheap, light and even though they don't make a ton of energy there's not much downside. Toss a few plates in the rad on a Prius and it's a nice additional marketing point.

As for the AC system dealing with heat, the same argument can be made for Air to Air systems vs. air to water. Water can evacuate more heat than air can, refrigerant can evacuate more heat than water. Not by being refrigerant but by actually being pressurized and changing states. Pressurize the refrigerant on one end causing it to condense into liquid from the pressure and concentrate it's heat energy into one place, the higher comparative temperature between ambient and the condensed refrigerant allows dramatically more heat to be drawn away. Then it evaporates into a gas as it depressurizes and cools to a dramatically lower comparative temperature to ambient allowing more heat to flow into it.

It might put some additional resistance on the engine but think of it as a supercharger for the coolant system. It can potentially make far more gains than it grabs in parasitic losses. Cooler air blowing into the engine means you can make more power with less fuel...

What might be the most interesting concept is actually using the AC system directly as the core for an intercooler. Rather than air to water to refrigerant, what about air to refrigerant intercooling? You have to run a water pump on the air to water intercooler system, what's the problem just running an AC pump and not an extra water pump aside from being a bit more load than a low pressure water pump?

If I could fab up stuff in aluminium I'd start testing this idea immediately.

[metalmaker12]

In the mean time of waiting for machine shop. They have 8 subie motors there right now among other manufactures but mine is supposed to be done this coming week.

I put my doors together, I am very happy with the way the came out.

image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg

I also fit my front bumper on again for better HE clearance.
image.jpgimage.jpg

[Frank818]

Quality of your body panels cannot be better, it's just... perfect.

Nice rubbers for your front hood, must sit pretty well with those. I have to remember that and do something similar.

[metalmaker12]

The panels came out nice and straight with paint laying down flat with very little dust. In the sun it's so very bright white it hurts my eyes. The base is spices hecker 501 bright white with no tints. My accents will be with wrap and custom decals.

Here's my headers and turbo waiting for there home image.jpg

[RM1SepEx]

Chris, how many hrs for bodywork? I like the way you captured the front of the hood, very clean. Paintwork looks excellent!

[metalmaker12]

I would say about 100-150 hours for fitting and all sanding,body filling, fiberglass work , priming and painting. It's about a 5-8k job at a body shop. If you fit it and just want bodywork and just paint it might be like 3k range, but different shops have different rates.

I am very happy with how it came out, all the sanding and painting paid off and I really like the bright white on this car!!

[metalmaker12]

Here's my engine build specs:
machine shop - balance rotating assembly
machine shop - bore and hone Subaru EJ block with torque plate machine shop - CNC resurface cylinder block deck
machine shop - jet wash/ final clean cylinder block
machine shop - resurface cylinder head (single)
machine shop - cylinder head surface lapping (race/high performance application, per head) machine shop - valve job, 4-cylinder, 16V, with cams
machine shop - set valve lash, Subaru EJ engine w/ shimless buckets
complete engine gasket kit for Subaru EJ205 engine
valve cover gasket for EJ207 engine, right
valve cover gasket for EJ207 engine, left
plug, cylinder head/valve cover (not included in gasket kit) o-ring for AVCS cam pulley cover
camshaft oil seal for Subaru DOHC turbo engine (AVCS camshaft) Subaru OEM case bolts for EJ engine
Killer B oil pan with pickup and baffle
Subaru OEM oil dipstick for EJ257 oil pan

CP forged piston set for Subaru EJ205; 8.5:1 CR, 92.5mm bore, with rings and wrist pins ARP head stud kit for Subaru EJ257 engine
ACL main bearings, Subaru EJ engine
ACL connecting rod bearings,
Jdm Sti rods ( my rods), or other, making decision soon!!

This setup with Sti rods is good for around 450, some have made even more. I might still put even stronger ones in, but its overkill to IMO

[shinn497]

I'm curious. What are you plans for paint/color?

[metalmaker12]

Good joke, or....It's is painted and white is the color.

[wallace18]

Panels and paint look super! great job! I can't wait to see final outcome.

[Tamra]

Looking good!

Your car is going to be done just in time for winter, that's no fun.

[metalmaker12]

Looking good!

Your car is going to be done just in time for winter, that's no fun.

Your not kidding, but oh well next season.

[metalmaker12]

Panels and paint look super! great job! I can't wait to see final outcome.

Thanks, as does your 818, I can't wait either, but this project has taught me an even stricter amount of patience.

[Frank818]

Next season? So a year and a half after you started it?
Will take that long cuz of the engine issue or the build itself?

[BrandonDrums]

Next season? So a year and a half after you started it?
Will take that long cuz of the engine issue or the build itself?

No, because it's going to be COOOLLD going that fast over the winter in New England!

[metalmaker12]

No, because it's going to be COOOLLD going that fast over the winter in New England!

What he said... A daaaaa ....A....j/k

Actually my engine should be returning within the next month, machine shop is wicked swamped and I am in no rush, plus they will cut me a deal since I have been waiting. Once I get it, I will install it and get the cart running again, than final body install.

[Frank818]

plus they will cut me a deal since I have been waiting.

Lucky you, don't say no to that, if my mech would have cut me a deal due to the horrible and unacceptable wait he puts me in, he would actually pay me for every day since the car is at the shop.

Hopefully your body install won't be too long, you've already done it anyway.

[metalmaker12]

I got a chance to go to Thompson Speedway on sat for a circuit one autocross test drive. I got behind the wheel of a GTR for 7 laps and a F430 for two laps. I have video with GTR but I haven't fully loaded it yet. There fast, sweet looking and well built, comfortable, etc etc, but they got nothing on the 818 in and performance basis for autocross. This was a short coarse autocross and I was not trying to kill the cars, plus it was raining. King Kong (GTR) has incredible power delivery and great braking along with the best computer assisted baby sitters I have ever driven. A grandmother could track this car, it's even comfortable enough for long trips. It's pretty much an all around masterpiece, but not my cup of yea because I am a sports car purest and it is just to easy to drive and to much computer assist for my liking. The F430 is a bit more race car inspired and feels closer to what a sport cars should feel like, but it was raining and I had no chance of real traction. I was getting the GTR to drift all around the corners and the Ferrari didn't want any of the rain. So a fair comparison is not in the cards this week. Stay tuned!!!

image.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpgimage.jpg

[Hindsight]

...but not my cup of yea because I am a sports car purest and it is just to easy to drive and to much computer assist for my liking.

I'm with you there. It took me 18 years to realize that there is nothing more fun than a super light, raw, no luxuries, high powered car. Driving around the more modern, heavy, high horsepower cars is ok, but it's a little like being on Valium. I feel the perfect combination in the garage is a luxurious, comfortable, high MPG commuter car, and a small, light, powerful, pure sports car.

That said, I'm still going to get the RaceLogic traction control in the 818 because I don't want to die

[sponaugle]

I got a chance to go to Thompson Speedway on sat for a circuit one autocross test drive. I got behind the wheel of a GTR for 7 laps and a F430 for two laps. I have video with GTR but I haven't fully loaded it yet. There fast, sweet looking and well built, comfortable, etc etc, but they got nothing on the 818 in and performance basis for autocross. This was a short coarse autocross and I was not trying to kill the cars, plus it was raining. King Kong (GTR) has incredible power delivery and great braking along with the best computer assisted baby sitters I have ever driven. A grandmother could track this car, it's even comfortable enough for long trips. It's pretty much an all around masterpiece, but not my cup of yea because I am a sports car purest and it is just to easy to drive and to much computer assist for my liking. The F430 is a bit more race car inspired and feels closer to what a sport cars should feel like, but it was raining and I had no chance of real traction. I was getting the GTR to drift all around the corners and the Ferrari didn't want any of the rain. So a fair comparison is not in the cards this week. Stay tuned!!!

That is a good description of the GT-R. I bought one for almost those exact reasons. My Subarus are fast and light, the GTO is fast and scary, and the 818 will be both! The GT-R fills the void as an incredible car to drive around town and in the twisties, especially in the foul weather NW. The stability control is next to none, and the natural tractive balance makes it very easy to drive fast. It is also just plain fast. On street tires exactly as I drive it to work it will pull off 10.7 1/4s run after run. The ECM is one of the best factories ECMs I have tuned. It has excellent real time wideband AFR feedback at all loads, a great multimap selectable feature, flex-fuel, traction control, and very fast logging.

It is however a heavy car, and is nothing like driving a small, light, high hp race car. I just put new turbos on my GT-R that are about 800whp capable, so that will help to offset the weight in the straights, but not the bends. I can't wait to get my 818 on the road!

And as hindsight said, I too am doing traction control because I don't want to die.

Jeff

[metalmaker12]

It's was a blast of a time!!, someday I might get a GTR but very used and for like 30k. I am income challenged lol.

[Frank818]

I might get a GTR but very used and for like 30k.

You might be missing the engine for that price.

[Frank818]

Metal, you've driven the 818 (S) many times so far right?

With the standard 350lbs front, yellow shocks and S aero, what's your opinion on the use of the front (subaru rear) sway bar? It is really recommended or it's more like up to anyone's taste and feeling depending on anyone's driving habits?

[metalmaker12]

Metal, you've driven the 818 (S) many times so far right?

With the standard 350lbs front, yellow shocks and S aero, what's your opinion on the use of the front (subaru rear) sway bar? It is really recommended or it's more like up to anyone's taste and feeling depending on anyone's driving habits?

The 818 S sits pretty flat under almost any cornering situation. Nicks had a sway bar, and I could feel it working the few times I turn through some curves under moderate speed. The sway bar is intended for the hard cornering of an autocross ,tight track , or heavy turn in or out situations. It will help reduce a slight body roll that the S has due to its higher ride height ( higher center of gravity). Is it really needed, no, but it can't hurt to cover all the bases and have every angle covered.

[Frank818]

Great, I like that explanation. So it covers all the bases without any drawbacks? I mean ride comfort is not affected in situations where the sway bar doesn't play its role?

I am about to cut the sway bar brackets, but I guess I should wait longer. Anyway I can still cut them in a year.

[tmoretta]

So the sway bar in the front does not induce excessive understeer?

[DMC7492]

I had my engine in to the shop. 2005 EJ205 They recommended ARPStuds on the case and the heads acl bearings throughout and Manley turbo Tuff rods and side skirt coated Manley pistons..010" over 8.5 CR. 750deatsch injectors with a Blouche TD 05-18 xt turbo. ported heads and Grimspeed PNP manifolds with high flow crossover...stock cams
Engine ran great in stock form then overhauled. Any idea on the H.P. capability of this combination with a moderate boost?

[metalmaker12]

My guess would be around 275-300 whp/ 270-295 wt @ 18 psi on pump gas. Tuff to say really, but that's the average. More boost will yield more power along with other fuels and IC pressure drops etc etc.