Metalmaker's build thread begins

[metalmaker12]

There is no compromise for an awic set up. I am using Wayne's setup and it should do the trick, and is at a good price and ready to bolt in, time is also money in my world. I will have an iat, egt temp gauge, along with boost oil press and a/f to monitor it and I am running my pistons on the looser end of the specs to allow for heat expantion. I am also going to use an ice box on the hot days.

All that pipping will get heat soaked and have high pressure drops, it will not come close to be as effective as an awic

I am running a koyo radiator, but stock should be ok, they just are not super durable.

[RM1SepEx]

How much pipe volume will you have? Do you have any concerns about air volume based boost lag? Also, what core are you using, and just one, or two?

one on the right side, less than 7 feet of 2.5 inch pipe, you could do it with 2.0 pipe too, might end up with better clearance in places too. See my thread for photos and details. Hopefully I'll have it installed this week... I needed some aluminum welding and I have to ask a friend for that service...

[Frank818]

G, metal, you definitely thought of everything humanly possible to cool down that engine. lolll

[metalmaker12]

G, metal, you definitely thought of everything humanly possible to cool down that engine. lolll

Well when you blow ringlands and headgaskets due to really high iats from one hard autocross session after you drove the car fine for 1000 miles on the street, you would do the same playa.

[Frank818]

Well when you blow ringlands and headgaskets due to really high iats from one hard autocross session after you drove the car fine for 1000 miles on the street, you would do the same playa.

I give you that. I've always been a freak of cooling down temps, not too much cuz it isn't better! But doing many little or big things to keep them cool. You just prove me right again about that. I'll continue the same way.

[BrandonDrums]

Hey Metalmaker, is your shortblock salvageable? If not, I have a used '02 wrx block in good shape for a rebuild for sale. Not a JDM but the shortblock is pretty much the same. I'll let it go for cheap, no one on NASIOC wants a 2.0L anymore.

[metalmaker12]

Hey Metalmaker, is your shortblock salvageable? If not, I have a used '02 wrx block in good shape for a rebuild for sale. Not a JDM but the shortblock is pretty much the same. I'll let it go for cheap, no one on NASIOC wants a 2.0L anymore.

Yeah it's repairable as far as they have measured and tested, I think it's all good, tomorrow I will get full results

[BrandonDrums]

Yeah it's repairable as far as they have measured and tested, I think it's all good, tomorrow I will get full results

Fingers crossed for ya man.

[metalmaker12]

image.jpg

Motors getting some machine love and the bottom will be fully built. The heads will be rebuilt with a haircut but stock trim with a mild port to just clean the ruff casting.

In the meantime I have ordered plx touch screen gauge for a/f, egt and iat. I also got stri 60mm oil pressure to match my boost gauge. I will be installing them in my dash. I also ordered Wayne's awic, a Blouch 1.5 xtr twinscroll turbo and these injectors. I will be good for 500 plus, but will be tuning it for 300-330whp with a sick powerband and reliability.

[C.Plavan]

image.jpg

Motors getting some machine love and the bottom will be fully built. The heads will be rebuilt with a haircut but stock trim with a mild port to just clean the ruff casting.

In the meantime I have ordered plx touch screen gauge for a/f, egt and iat. I also got stri 60mm oil pressure to match my boost gauge. I will be installing them in my dash. I also ordered Wayne's awic, a Blouch 1.5 xtr twinscroll turbo and these injectors. I will be good for 500 plus, but will be tuning it for 300-330whp with a sick powerband and reliability.

Nice!

[Wayne Presley]

Here's a comparison of air to air intercooler to air to water

Air to Air with two 10" fans sitting on top of the intercooler


Air to water low speed fan 3 feet in front of heat exchanger.
Data log starts at 1.7 seconds at intake air temp of 97 F@2650 RPM
Data log ends at 8.7 seconds at intake air temp of 106 F@6100RPM
9°F increase in 7 seconds

Both engines made 240 RWHP

[longislandwrx]

Was that an oem TMIC? What was ambient air/water in the tank temp?

[Wayne Presley]

That was a stock 07 air to air TMIC on an 07 WRX. The water in the tank had 7 pulls on it and water temp was 96 degrees. Ambient temp was 92-96.
On the air to air, can you imaging the intake air temps at an autocross with only the air flow from the deck vents vs the 20°F/6 seconds with two 10" fans sitting on top of them?

[RM1SepEx]

Stock location can't work... no air flow

[wleehendrick]

To me, the data clearly show that, compared to a AWIC, the stock A2A IC performance is compromised even with adequate airflow; this would be the case in the original fitment (WRX); in a stock 818 the temp rise would be greater.

What would be interesting is to know where the delta-T levels off at a typical power duty cycle representative of track duty, with adequate airflow. This would answer if the stock IC could be ever be useful even with proper ducting.

Hmmm... My 818 will be primarily a street car, but I'm starting to think about the AWIC!

[Wayne Presley]

Time (s)	RPM	MAP (kPa)	TPS (%)	MAT (°C)	WT (°C)	AuxT (°C)
1.857	2658	115.8	69.5	-	80	36
1.95	2780	117.6	97.6	-	80	36
2.013	2792	113	97.6	-	80	36
2.059	2799	114.4	97.7	-	80	36
2.137	2848	118.3	97.6	-	80	36
2.2	2856	114.5	97.6	-	80	37
2.293	2911	115.5	97.6	-	80	37
2.356	2931	118	97.6	-	80	37
2.371	2931	118	97.6	-	80	37
2.449	2963	114.4	97.6	-	80	37
2.512	2998	117.8	97.7	-	80	37
2.574	3025	115.5	97.7	-	80	37
2.668	3040	114.8	97.6	-	80	37
2.683	3040	114.8	97.6	-	80	37
2.746	3088	115.5	97.6	-	80	37
2.839	3131	115.9	97.6	-	80	37
2.871	3151	120.6	97.7	-	80	37
2.933	3158	117.1	97.7	-	80	37
2.995	3188	116	97.7	-	80	37
3.073	3227	116.1	97.7	-	80	37
3.136	3277	118	97.6	-	80	37
3.198	3297	119.4	97.6	-	80	37
3.276	3344	117.8	97.6	-	80	37
3.292	3354	118.1	97.6	-	80	37
3.385	3413	117.8	97.6	-	80	37
3.448	3419	119.9	97.7	-	80	37
3.526	3480	118.6	97.7	-	80	37
3.588	3482	117.8	97.6	-	80	37
3.635	3524	118	97.6	-	80	37
3.697	3562	120.5	97.7	-	80	37
3.76	3582	117.3	97.7	-	80	37
3.838	3638	120.3	97.7	-	80	37
3.869	3657	120.8	97.7	-	80	37
3.931	3688	116.4	97.6	-	80	37
3.978	3688	116.4	97.6	-	80	37
4.056	3752	115.5	97.7	-	80	37
4.119	3785	117	98.2	-	80	37
4.197	3829	121.3	97.7	-	80	37
4.259	3873	119.3	97.7	-	80	37
4.321	3900	120.4	97.7	-	80	37
4.399	3944	118.3	97.7	-	80	37

[Wayne Presley]

Time (s)	RPM	MAP (kPa)	TPS (%)	MAT (°C)	WT (°C)	AuxT (°C)
4.431	3975	119.3	97.7	-	80	37
4.509	3995	122.8	97.7	-	80	37
4.571	4038	121.4	97.8	-	80	37
4.633	4067	118.1	97.7	-	80	37
4.68	4076	118.9	97.6	-	80	37
4.743	4129	119	97.7	-	80	37
4.992	4264	123.1	97.7	-	80	38
5.023	4264	123.1	97.7	-	80	38
5.039	4264	123.1	97.7	-	80	38
5.133	4333	122	97.8	-	80	38
5.179	4350	123.5	97.7	-	80	38
5.242	4374	120.7	97.7	-	80	38
5.304	4401	123.3	97.6	-	80	38
5.398	4464	122.8	97.7	-	80	38
5.445	4478	124.3	97.7	-	80	38
5.507	4503	120.5	97.8	-	80	38
5.601	4543	122.7	97.7	-	80	38
5.601	4543	122.7	97.7	-	80	38
5.71	4603	123.8	97.7	-	80	38
5.757	4633	124.8	97.8	-	80	38
5.819	4652	124.6	97.7	-	80	38
5.881	4699	121.4	97.7	-	80	38
5.944	4726	122.5	97.6	-	80	38
6.022	4762	123	97.8	-	80	38
6.069	4791	125.3	97.7	-	80	38
6.162	4836	126.5	97.7	-	80	38
6.178	4836	126.5	97.7	-	80	38
6.256	4878	123.7	97.7	-	80	38
6.303	4908	123.6	97.7	-	80	39
6.365	4955	126.8	97.6	-	80	39
6.427	4977	126	97.8	-	80	39
6.505	5022	122.6	97.7	-	80	39
6.583	5081	126.8	97.7	-	80	39
6.646	5090	126.1	97.7	-	80	39
6.693	5118	126.6	97.7	-	80	39
6.739	5146	124.6	97.7	-	80	39
6.849	5193	125.7	97.7	-	80	39
6.927	5261	127.8	97.7	-	80	39
6.973	5286	126.5	97.7	-	80	39
7.02	5311	128.3	97.7	-	80	39
						0

[Wayne Presley]

Time (s)	RPM	MAP (kPa)	TPS (%)	MAT (°C)	WT (°C)	AuxT (°C)
7.083	5331	127.6	97.7	-	80	39
7.098	5357	127.8	97.7	-	80	39
7.192	5419	127.7	97.7	-	80	39
7.301	5429	127.4	97.8	-	80	39
7.317	5429	127.4	97.8	-	80	39
7.379	5503	127.1	97.6	-	80	40
7.426	5520	127.8	97.7	-	80	40
7.488	5547	127.8	97.7	-	80	40
7.535	5597	128.8	97.7	-	80	40
7.629	5647	129	97.7	-	80	40
7.691	5664	129.4	97.7	-	80	40
7.753	5710	129.1	97.6	-	80	40
7.847	5757	128.7	97.7	-	80	40
7.878	5757	128.7	97.7	-	80	40
7.941	5810	128.5	97.7	-	80	40
8.019	5853	128.2	97.7	-	80	40
8.081	5877	128.3	97.6	-	80	40
8.128	5908	130.7	97.8	-	80	40
8.175	5921	131.8	97.7	-	80	40
8.268	5939	129.6	97.7	-	80	40
8.331	6035	130.6	97.7	-	80	41
8.424	6035	130.6	97.7	-	80	41
8.424	6035	130.6	97.7	-	80	41
8.471	6035	130.6	97.7	-	80	41
8.533	6035	130.6	97.7	-	80	41
8.596	6035	130.6	97.7	-	80	41
8.658	6035	130.6	97.7	-	80	41
8.721	6035	130.6	97.7	-	80	41
8.783	6035	130.6	97.7	-	80	41

[longislandwrx]

thanks for the data!

[RM1SepEx]

The stock IC can't allow air to flow through very well so much of it is covered by that stupid Y pipe, disrupting smooth flow

[metalmaker12]

That was a stock 07 air to air TMIC on an 07 WRX. The water in the tank had 7 pulls on it and water temp was 96 degrees. Ambient temp was 92-96.
On the air to air, can you imaging the intake air temps at an autocross with only the air flow from the deck vents vs the 20°F/6 seconds with two 10" fans sitting on top of them?

Oh I can imagine and so can my engine.

[metalmaker12]

I am going to start a depowering the rack gig. I have done about 10-15 other car types and 5 818 conversions and now I figure I will offer the service.

The drop off fee: $200

Mailing in fee of: $240 ( you pay to mail it in, but I do work and mail it back to you, and mailing fee is included in price)

Includes: teardown and seal removal, cleaning, pinion and line end welding, blasting, painting of line ends re-assembly with
High temp greese, and new boot ties.

Any other parts that are needed ( bushings, boots, inner parts etc, will be added to the bill with no additional labor

PayPal or cash only

Pm if your interested.

[Aloha818]

image.jpg

Motors getting some machine love and the bottom will be fully built. The heads will be rebuilt with a haircut but stock trim with a mild port to just clean the ruff casting.

In the meantime I have ordered plx touch screen gauge for a/f, egt and iat. I also got stri 60mm oil pressure to match my boost gauge. I will be installing them in my dash. I also ordered Wayne's awic, a Blouch 1.5 xtr twinscroll turbo and these injectors. I will be good for 500 plus, but will be tuning it for 300-330whp with a sick powerband and reliability.

Sorry you had the engine failure, but looks like it was a good excuse to really up the game!

[metalmaker12]

Yeah, the awic is a great way to save yours and others, the IC will just not get the air it needs to function correctly.

[BrandonDrums]

I've been considering doing an AWIC setup on my WRX now just having read through a lot of threads on the AWIC. However, in my reading it sounds like the down-side of the AWIC is still a higher propensity to heat-soak on long track stints. AWIC is mostly used for short drag-racing runs and drift stuff where heat-soak isn't an issue because it's just a couple laps.

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced...tercooler.html

I know it's going to be better than a stock TMIC setup to run AWIC in an 818 but what if you could get more reverse flow through the IC by mounting a large FMIC against the mesh outlet of the 818R rear-end? The massive low-pressure cavity behind the trailing end of the car pulls air in through the sides, top and bottom of the engine bay and sucks it out through there.

[Wayne Presley]

I've been considering doing an AWIC setup on my WRX now just having read through a lot of threads on the AWIC. However, in my reading it sounds like the down-side of the AWIC is still a higher propensity to heat-soak on long track stints. AWIC is mostly used for short drag-racing runs and drift stuff where heat-soak isn't an issue because it's just a couple laps.

http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced...tercooler.html

I know it's going to be better than a stock TMIC setup to run AWIC in an 818 but what if you could get more reverse flow through the IC by mounting a large FMIC against the mesh outlet of the 818R rear-end? The massive low-pressure cavity behind the trailing end of the car pulls air in through the sides, top and bottom of the engine bay and sucks it out through there.

Well just having finished a weekend at Barber with a SC Elise with an AWIC I can attest that the heat soak is not an issue. After a 20 minute race, the water in the coolant tank was 114°F on a 94° day. That was the equilibrium point with the size of heat exchanger installed. As you can imaging it's less than 50% of the size of the heat exchanger that is in the 818 AWIC I sell due to how small the nose is in the Elise.

Brandon, putting the A2AIC there will feed the intercooler engine heated air and not ambient.

[Frank818]

Speaking of AWIC, metalbreaker where are you running your coolant lines from the tank to cooler? Along side the engine coolant tubes in the door sills?

Another question, normally what is better to increase efficiency of an AWIC setup? A larger heat exchanger, a bigger cooler or a bigger tank with more water?

[Wayne Presley]

Speaking of AWIC, metalbreaker where are you running your coolant lines from the tank to cooler? Along side the engine coolant tubes in the door sills?

Another question, normally what is better to increase efficiency of an AWIC setup? A larger heat exchanger, a bigger cooler or a bigger tank with more water?

Bigger HE and tank will increase the time to heat equilibrium.

[sponaugle]

A temp switch? Temp sensor with a gauge would be a good way to monitor it, along with an indicator light on the pumps ground side so it turns on when pump is on ( unless you run it full duty). With speed density we could tune the wrx to use a iat temp sensor after the turbo. I am working on that aspect also. Wayne's got his wiring setup also, but it can be done with the factory ecu.

If you wire a fast response IAT sensor into the stock ECU you can use the ECU tables to do an effective engine cut if IATs get too high. Most of the Subaru ECUs have wastegate and boost target trim based on IAT, as well as ignition timing. I have my 08 STI maps set such that IATs above 140 degrees results in no additional boost above wastegate and a retarding in timing. The drop in boost is very noticeable and you would immediately know something is wrong.

Not to smash your insightful suggestion, but I have heard, witnessed this can cause issues because the iat is integral to the maf and the Ecu in a maf based configuration relies on it to be where it is stock.Also the response time of Ecu based iats is pretty slow, so with improper resistance to that circuit it could cause insufficient readings and actually not do any good. I am trying to intergrate a whole new circuit to work with that circuits signal wire but be seperate. I am the idea guy, some of my electrical guru friends are working on it. They have had issues on customers cars with the splicing. If you run a setup like Wayne's were it is intergrated into his system to run the iat anywhere like SD than that is the way to go, but with a maf it's a bit more tricky cause you must compromise the circuit to achieve two iats.

In fact I am pretty sure it would not even function. The iat is a resistive sensor. No way you can tie two together because if this. When you change the iat you have to change the scalar in the Ecu. You def can't put two in parallel.

I would really encourage running SD in a case like this. With SD you have very fine control of fueling and load mapping, plus a good fast IAT. I use an IAT sensor in the boost tube for my 08, wired into the MAF IAT circuit.

There is no compromise for an awic set up. I am using Wayne's setup and it should do the trick, and is at a good price and ready to bolt in, time is also money in my world. I will have an iat, egt temp gauge, along with boost oil press and a/f to monitor it and I am running my pistons on the looser end of the specs to allow for heat expantion. I am also going to use an ice box on the hot days.

Nice. I'm also going to use the VCP AWIC setup.

I'm curious as to your piston tolerances. Here is how I built my motor last week ( new case, ACL bearings, Weisco pistons. ) Any idea how they compare?



Cheers, Jeff

[BrandonDrums]

If you wire a fast response IAT sensor into the stock ECU you can use the ECU tables to do an effective engine cut if IATs get too high. Most of the Subaru ECUs have wastegate and boost target trim based on IAT, as well as ignition timing. I have my 08 STI maps set such that IATs above 140 degrees results in no additional boost above wastegate and a retarding in timing. The drop in boost is very noticeable and you would immediately know something is wrong.




I would really encourage running SD in a case like this. With SD you have very fine control of fueling and load mapping, plus a good fast IAT. I use an IAT sensor in the boost tube for my 08, wired into the MAF IAT circuit.





Nice. I'm also going to use the VCP AWIC setup.

I'm curious as to your piston tolerances. Here is how I built my motor last week ( new case, ACL bearings, Weisco pistons. ) Any idea how they compare?



Cheers, Jeff

Yeah, those clearances look about right. Personally, I prefer the rod bearings to be a bit looser than stock. Mine are all .00185"-.002'' and I ended up allowing the machine shop to resize a couple rods to get there after going through two sets of ACL "Race" Bearings. After two rod bearing failures I figured it's more important to get more oil flow there for heat evacuation purposes. Seems to be working out well.

Also, it needs to be said that the only way to get a post-turbo/IC IAT dependent tune on a stock Subaru ECU is to convert to speed density. I don't know if that was clear in your post. If you're on a MAF tune, it's not really possible to put another IAT sensor elsewhere on the intake tract. Replacing the MAF with an upgraded one still means having IAT reading come before the turbo. However, if you have more info on how to add another IAT on a MAF tune, link me to some readin' cause' I'll be doing that asap.

Brandon, putting the A2AIC there will feed the intercooler engine heated air and not ambient.

Yeah, but that's practically the case with the TMIC where it is. At least by moving it back to the tail end you'll have more air flowing through it and get the TMIC away from the hot turbo and away from being directly over the engine. Not ideal but a likely improvement over the stock location. Could perhaps be an option for re-locating the stock TMIC for a temporary solution for budget guys. I'd love to get some airspeed and temp readings from there vs. the stock location.

[metalmaker12]

I am running my plx device Afr, ait and egt modules with a dm-6 multi touch gauge. I will monitor the awic's efficiency.

As far as I know and other local tuners you can't just add an iat sensor to the maf ( in a maf setup) and expect the ecu work properly on all it's tables.

[Aero STI]

Also, it needs to be said that the only way to get a post-turbo/IC IAT dependent tune on a stock Subaru ECU is to convert to speed density. I don't know if that was clear in your post. If you're on a MAF tune, it's not really possible to put another IAT sensor elsewhere on the intake tract. Replacing the MAF with an upgraded one still means having IAT reading come before the turbo. However, if you have more info on how to add another IAT on a MAF tune, link me to some readin' cause' I'll be doing that asap.

You don't see it very much anymore because SD is so prevalent, but a blow-thru MAF setup allows you to get more accurate IAT readings post intercooler.

http://perrinperformance.com/i-13324...7-wrx-sti.html

[sponaugle]

You don't see it very much anymore because SD is so prevalent, but a blow-thru MAF setup allows you to get more accurate IAT readings post intercooler.

http://perrinperformance.com/i-13324...7-wrx-sti.html

Bingo. There is no reason you can't put the IAT sensor after the intercooler, even if you have the MAF before the intercooler/turbo. Back in the day (as the saying goes), I did both, and both worked well. The blow thru MAF setup is a bit funky, but it can be made to work. In both cases you have to make some adjustments to the Intake Air comp tables. If you have the IAT after the turbo it will see much higher IAT and as such you will want to change how the compensations are applied. Give me a sec and I'll post up a sample set of tables.

I am running my plx device Afr, ait and egt modules with a dm-6 multi touch gauge. I will monitor the awic's efficiency.
As far as I know and other local tuners you can't just add an iat sensor to the maf ( in a maf setup) and expect the ecu work properly on all it's tables.

I have used the PLX devices extensively, and actually I used to be a dealer back in the PDX days. I'll post up some more comments in my build thread so as to not pollute yours. There are some interesting pluses and minuses.

Yeah, those clearances look about right. Personally, I prefer the rod bearings to be a bit looser than stock. Mine are all .00185"-.002'' and I ended up allowing the machine shop to resize a couple rods to get there after going through two sets of ACL "Race" Bearings. After two rod bearing failures I figured it's more important to get more oil flow there for heat evacuation purposes. Seems to be working out well.

Also, it needs to be said that the only way to get a post-turbo/IC IAT dependent tune on a stock Subaru ECU is to convert to speed density. I don't know if that was clear in your post. If you're on a MAF tune, it's not really possible to put another IAT sensor elsewhere on the intake tract. Replacing the MAF with an upgraded one still means having IAT reading come before the turbo. However, if you have more info on how to add another IAT on a MAF tune, link me to some readin' cause' I'll be doing that asap.

Indeed I have done the aftermarket IAT sensor with the factory MAF sensor plugged in. The factory MAF will still have an IAT sensor in it, but I cut the wire to the ECU and added my own IAT sensor post turbo. While I would prefer to be on a speed density tune for this, you can do it MAF only. The MAF sensor itself it temperature dependent and temperature correcting, and the IAT sensor inside the MAF sensor can simply be disconnected from the ECU while leaving the MAF signal connected.

If you were going to this trouble you might consider just doing a blow-thru MAF, or as you suggested just switch to SD.

Jeff

[sponaugle]

Here are the tables I was talking about.. these are for an 06 WRX ECU:









The first table is the calibration table, which you have to change if you use a different sensor. Pretty easy.
The second table is timing compensation, which you would need to make flatter up to 210, then roll down. This is very useful for an AWIC because if post AWIC you AITs are over 220-230 you have a problem.
The third table allows you to get rid of WGDC at high IATS.
The forth is one of three tables that adjusts the PID algorythm based on IATs.

There are a few other tables, but they are of similar construction. If you move the IAT sensor to a post turbo/IC spot, you just need to adjust these accordingly.

Jeff

[longislandwrx]

Indeed I have done the aftermarket IAT sensor with the factory MAF sensor plugged in. The factory MAF will still have an IAT sensor in it, but I cut the wire to the ECU and added my own IAT sensor post turbo.

Jeff

what a great idea.

[metalmaker12]

Here are the tables I was talking about.. these are for an 06 WRX ECU:









The first table is the calibration table, which you have to change if you use a different sensor. Pretty easy.
The second table is timing compensation, which you would need to make flatter up to 210, then roll down. This is very useful for an AWIC because if post AWIC you AITs are over 220-230 you have a problem.
The third table allows you to get rid of WGDC at high IATS.
The forth is one of three tables that adjusts the PID algorythm based on IATs.

There are a few other tables, but they are of similar construction. If you move the IAT sensor to a post turbo/IC spot, you just need to adjust these accordingly.

Jeff

Seems simply from the way your explaining it, but I bet its harder to get just right so it all runs smoothly. I will work on it on the dyno, hopefully I can get it to work correctly

[longislandwrx]

Seems simply from the way your explaining it, but I bet its harder to get just right so it all runs smoothly. I will work on it on the dyno, hopefully I can get it to work correctly

true but, before converting you can do plenty of datalogging of the actual IAT and see what your delta between the mafs readings are over various conditions. from there table two shouldn't be too hard to tweak. looking at Jeff's values IAT over 176 is unlikely, so you are really only generating 4 or 5 values. not too bad. start conservative and then add a little timing.

[metalmaker12]

Got HE mocked up, had to play around with it because my lower aluminum gets in the way of Wayne's design slightly. I still have to re align the brass fittings to work the way I want, so nothing's final except the location of core. image.jpgimage.jpg

[Frank818]

That's a nice HE, what are its size specs? I am looking for exactly that type. EDIT: Sorry metalbruins, I just realized it's on Wayne's AWIC thread so I have asked there.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post168412


Other thing, where will you install your tank?

[metalmaker12]

That's a nice HE, what are its size specs? I am looking for exactly that type. EDIT: Sorry metalbruins, I just realized it's on Wayne's AWIC thread so I have asked there.
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post168412


Other thing, where will you install your tank?

What tank do mean??

Metalbruins "A", which team is yours, Montreal, leafs etc