VAG VR6 engine + tranny viable?

[Speedy G]

Hey guys,

I'm really interested in the viability of putting in a VR6/2.0T engine in an 818. It's not a VAG vs Subie thing, but rather because I can't get subie parts where I live. I'm sure the subie engine is lower and lighter, but if the VAG fits, it could be a viable alternative. I also have experience with VAG engines so it's easier for me to understand them. One cool thing about VAG engines is that the exhaust exists out the back in front wheel drive cars so routing is easier than on a Honda for example. A turbo could also be added in the back for extremely easy access (loose bolts?).

The first question is whether the engine fits. We need the engine bay dimensions for this. Can anyone help out by measuring the width and height? The engine depth might also be critical. If someone could measure how much distance there is between an axle and the firewall on the 818, we could compare to what the VR6 engine needs (distance between the axel and the front-most part of the VR6 engine).

My drivetrain idea is as follows:

3.2L VR6 from Eurospec with a 6 speed manual (also from them)
lugtronic or other standalone


Thanks guys,

Speedy G

[Frank818]

Yes the exhaust exit is straight in the middle towards the rear, that's easy.

I'll take a look at mine this w-e and see what measurements I can get.

[wleehendrick]

because I can't get subie parts where I live.

There's a lot more than just the drivetrain you need out out a Subaru. Take a look at the "what you need list" here:

https://www.factoryfive.com/kits/pro...what-you-need/

If it's true that you can't source Subaru parts, then you have a lot of fabrication to adapt other pieces to make a complete 818.

[Speedy G]

True. The only really worrisome stuff are the brake system, spindles and suspension parts which I'd get new anyway. The wheelbase is similar to a Golf (.1 inch difference), so maybe even the axles and spindles can be used from a Golf. I'm sure the suspension geometry would be totally different though, so who knows. I'm sure we can fabricate something to make it work. Remember labor is cheap down here.

[Turboguy]

Are you sure you can't get Subie parts there?

Here is the contact info for Subaru of Columbia:

Subaru de Colombia S.A.
Address: Carrera 19 No. 66-45, Santafe de Bogota, D.C.
Phone: +57 1 3481755
Fax: +57 1 2170427

[longislandwrx]

I'm sure there are enough resources on this forum and others to get you what you need. Shipping might not be too bad with international flat rate... most of the needed parts are not too big (minus the steering column)

My sisters ex boyfriend is from Colombia and ships there all the time. There's got to be a dealership that can help you with the rest.

Subaru of Colombia's site lists Bogata, Medellin, Cali, Manizalez, Pereira and Barranquilla but doesn't have phone numbers.

https://www.facebook.com/SubaruColombia

33k likes, there has to be somewhat of a Subaru following.

[Speedy G]

Oh, I can subie parts, but new and very expensive. Getting a suitable donor is what's impossible. Also, I thought about a VR6 to get a 6 cyl engine in there. The H6 sounds like an option, but again it would have to be new and very expensive. The H6 isn't sold here so there's the added issue of importing it myself. A VR6 I can get much cheaper, even from the dealer, since we import them from México with much lower taxes. Also it would be possible to find a donor VR6 locally.

In any case, please, please, please, those of you that already have a chasis, please post the engine bay dimensions.

[wleehendrick]

Oh, I can subie parts, but new and very expensive. Getting a suitable donor is what's impossible.

Assuming you can ship an 818 kit shipped to Columbia, why not consider a donor pallet from AJW or Wayne? Sure it's a bit more money, but probably far less hassle in the long run that trying to adapt a VR6.

[StatGSR]

I'm gunna be "that guy"

have you looked at the Smyth Performance G3F? Seeing how its a Jetta based car, it seems like the logical choice for a pro VW builder. granted, its not really finished or released yet, which is a little problematic from a planning perspective...

[longislandwrx]

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[Speedy G]

Assuming you can ship an 818 kit shipped to Columbia, why not consider a donor pallet from AJW or Wayne? Sure it's a bit more money, but probably far less hassle in the long run that trying to adapt a VR6.

I wish... Legally, it's only possible to import new parts or vehicles, no second hand stuff. Importing a kit is not an issue although it must be registered at the DMV at the max 1 year after the import. That means I have to build it in less than a year.

[Speedy G]

I'm gunna be "that guy"

have you looked at the Smyth Performance G3F? Seeing how its a Jetta based car, it seems like the logical choice for a pro VW builder. granted, its not really finished or released yet, which is a little problematic from a planning perspective...

If I can't get a decent deal on the 818 with a VR6 I'll get an FFR '33 hot rod with a supercharged ford coyote engine. I like the 818 looks, not so much the G3f.

[Frank818]

MEASURES HAVE CHANGED! SEE POST #27.

Some measurements of the VR6, I may have more precise numbers around Oct 11th, if I do I will edit this post.

- Distance from bottom of OEM oil pan to top of the OEM cam cover (OEM intake manifold removed as I use a log type manifold): ~28.6875in (72.8cm);
- Distance from side cover of the EuroSpecSport 6-sp tranny (left side of car) to the engine pulleys (right side of car): ~33-34in (83.8-86.4cm). This one is harder to measure;
- Distance from axles (basically the firewall as the the axles are about right under the firewall) to the front most part of the engine (alternator): ~31in (78.7cm).

The other problem is that with this setup you are shifting weight towards the middle of the car, as the tranny sits transversally and not longitudinally. Not sure of the handling effects of this?

[Turboguy]

SO- what happens to cars after they have accidents in your country? You can't get a written off WRX or buy the parts from a wrecker?

[Speedy G]

You can't import used parts or used cars. Dealers have a monopoly on new manufacturer parts and they're expensive. You can find used parts locally via the web or if you're lucky your mechanic knows of a wreck that's selling in parts. There's also a black market, but I wouldn't go there.

Thanks for the dimensions Frank818!!! Now all we need is someone with an 818 chassis that could measure the dimensions of the 818 engine bay. Please, anybody?

[Frank818]

Now all we need is someone with an 818 chassis that could measure the dimensions of the 818 engine bay. Please, anybody?

Maybe we could ask on another thread or a build thread for someone to come here. I'm sure when people read the thread title they don't know a non-VR6 (818 dimensions) question is asked and if they are not interested in fitting a VR6 they won't read the 818 question.

[Mechie3]

Nah, it just takes some time.

[Mechie3]

[Frank818]

Lolll I got proven wrong in 14mins.
Tnx Mechie


Hummm, don't think there's enough height. Or maybe I read at the wrong place.

[Mechie3]

Height is 24" to the triangular brace, but depending on where the motor actually sits, the brace doesn't cover the entire engine bay. The first and second pics show you you where the ends of the braces are so you can draw a picture and see if the motor will fit.

[Speedy G]

Thanks Mechie!

It looks like the depth is the killer by 10 inches, which is really surprising. Height might be ok depending on the placement of the motor mounts.

[RM1SepEx]

actually, you will be dumping the motor mounts and making your own and the cross bar is removable. I'd expect that you could easily modify the brace connecting the two shock towers.

Hell it is a kit car after all! The space for the engine is pretty big, the boxer is a very wide engine, the VR6 used transverse is much more compact. You might need to modify the engine cover area too...

[Frank818]

By removing the crossbar, what else are you removing? Chassis strength/torsion?

[Frank818]

Speedy G, what's your next step?
Do you need more measurements, more accuracy on those I provided or you have enough info to brainstorm on the viability or go no-go on your end?

[Speedy G]

I'm not sure... The last thing I wanted to do was redesign the rear subframe, and the difference in depth seems pretty big. I'm gonna give it some thought. Are you sure the VR6 is that deep (axle to alternator)?

Speedy G

[Frank818]

I can measure that with the car up on a lift, I must admit it's really not easy to measure from top of the engine, but if I use the firewall as a guide (and the axles are extremely close to the fw), that's the number. Oct 11th is the date for that.

[Frank818]

Hey Speedy, I am updating my measurements. The lenght from axle is MUCH less than 1st measure.

- Distance from bottom of OEM oil pan to top of the OEM cam cover (OEM intake manifold removed as I use a log type manifold): ~25.5-26in (64.65cm);
- Distance from side cover of the EuroSpecSport 6-sp tranny (left side of car) to the engine pulleys (right side of car): 36in (90cm);
- Distance from middle of axles to the front most part of the engine (alternator and manifold): ~20.5in (51.25cm).

[killerrudy]

This, if possible, would be an awesome engine setup. Making an adapter plate from the VW engine to the subi trans wouldn't be an issue. Seems like there isn't enough fwd(block) area for it to fit easily. If it wasn't to much of a hassle/reverse engineering feat, I would love the have the VR6 engine over the subie (no blasting please) for the simple fact that it is the best sounding engine that I have heard. Pure harmonic bliss is how my brain describes the exhaust note to me.

[Xusia]

I don't really think mating the VR6 to the Subaru 5MT transmission is the best idea. The VR6 is a transverse mounted engine, and the 5MT is designed for a longitudinally mounted engine. While it might technically be possible to mate them, that's prob the least efficient use of the very limited space in the 818, and I just don't see it working.

If you really want a VR6, I think using it's transmission is a far better idea. You could mount the VR6 transversely - like it's designed to be mounted - and make much better use of the space. You might have to make some modifications, but I think the result will be better in the long run.

[killerrudy]

There are a few production applications in which the VR6 was longitudinal. The Audi B5 and Phaeton are two examples so I wouldn't think that would be an issue of what it was designed for. Efficiency aside (added engine weight) it would just a engineering nightmare to shoehorn it in there I think. Past moving the mounts back maybe 1 inch (pending axle binding issues) I think you would still have to push the bay forward into the fuel tank area.

[Xusia]

There are a few production applications in which the VR6 was longitudinal. The Audi B5 and Phaeton are two examples so I wouldn't think that would be an issue of what it was designed for.

I didn't know that. I've only seen that engine in FWD VWs, so thanks for educating me!

Efficiency aside (added engine weight) it would just a engineering nightmare to shoehorn it in there I think. Past moving the mounts back maybe 1 inch (pending axle binding issues) I think you would still have to push the bay forward into the fuel tank area.

That's really more the point I was trying to make. Mounted longitudinally, the VR6 is longer than the EJ/EZ engines, which creates space issues.

[Frank818]

Ok but transversally?

I got the engine, with too much power I would detune it but that's easy, I got a super awesome 6-sp tranny, now what? Is the engine too tall to fit anyway?

If I look at Mechie's nice measurements, do I see 30" high for the 818 engine bay?
VR6 has 26", so that should fit there.

Width, I see 38-40" on Mechie's.
VR6 has 36, so that should fit there.

EDIT: Axle/hub to firewall in 818 is 24-26".
VR6 has 20-21, should fit.

Maybe the upper crossbars may be an issue for height?

[Xusia]

Like I said, there may be some modifications required. Based on your measurements, the engine definitely fits better transversely than longitudinally. The only issue seems to be the extra 4" needed from axle to firewall. Depending on where exactly that 4" is needed, you might be able to get away with a differently shaped gas tank. Alternatively, you could relocate the gas tank rearward of the axles (since there is not longer a transmission there), or up in the front somewhere (which should leave you with a monsterous cavity in back for a trunk!).

[Frank818]

So if I understand, the 16" from the bracket to the firewall on Mechie's 818 is where the axles fit? Where the brackets are, that's where the axles fit? I am trying to see exactly where the middle of the axles fit wrt the firewall on the 818.

Then yeah, not possible to modify the brackets as anyway the VR6 axles will still be at an angle with the wheels.

Moving the gas tank probably means re-doing the rectangle frame around it too, as the frame is also at 15-16" from the axles and may well hit on the top and/or bottom of the VR6 front end.

I mean, looking at that, if the axles to the front of engine are not exactly 16" (or less depending on the engine's shape), I don't see how any engine could fit.

[Xusia]

I mean, looking at that, if the axles to the front of engine are not exactly 16" (or less depending on the engine's shape), I don't see how any engine could fit.

I think it depends on the engine. If a part that protrudes into the gas tank space hits the frame, then you would have to modify the frame. That's not to say every engine would have parts sticking forward in exactly those spots though...

[Frank818]

Basically I think it's very hard to know if it fits and how it fits until someone actually tries it in.

Speedy, with only 4" too many on the axle-to-front length, maybe it's worth it for you to give a try (since Subaru parts are so hard to get in your country anyway)?

[Oppenheimer]

Basically I think it's very hard to know if it fits and how it fits until someone actually tries it in.

Speedy, with only 4" too many on the axle-to-front length, maybe it's worth it for you to give a try (since Subaru parts are so hard to get in your country anyway)?

The problem with trying for him is if it doesn't fit, what does he do then? He doesn't have ready access to used Subie parts, new parts (Subie engine & trans) way too expensive. Plus he has to have it built in less than a year, or he can never register it, and $10K down the drain. I know there are others with desire to fit the VW motor. So maybe best bet is to let someone else pave the way on the formula to make this work. Then he can just follow that example and know he can be done in < 1 year.

[Frank818]

The problem with trying for him is if it doesn't fit, what does he do then?

Oops, crap, sorry I really didn't think of that one!


Well I'll talk with my friend (my mechanic too) and see if he'd give it a try to fit my VR engine and assume some frame modifications. Thing is, it must not add length to the frame, otherwise the fiberglass panels won't fit anymore. And having a custom gas tank (smaller, if frame is pushed forwards over there) is not something he can do. Maybe I can give measurements to Boyd I remember they can do custom!

I'll seriously think about it, as I am pretty sure I can save a lot of money to use my Corrado as the engine/ECU/tranny donor (and maybe the seats donor too with its nice Recaros, and why not Momo S/W and shift knob and etc.) and sell the remaining parts over the years.

Will take me months before I get a clear answer, though. Only weeks if I am lucky, but I doubt I will on that one.

[Frank818]

I think have enough information to analyze the feasibility of physically installing the VR in the 818. But I am scoping only the engine and 6sp tranny, NOT the axles, spindles/knuckles/hubs, rear brakes.

Speaking of that, how these can fit?


The other thing I thought about, is weight difference an issue? The long block EJ25 with accessories and liquids is around 265lbs according to Nasioc. Add probably 80 for the tranny, that's 345lbs. Wayne said the EZ30 weighs what, 15-20lbs more, that's 365lbs.
The VR6 with tranny weighs about 400lbs. 35lbs more may not be an issue and the weight would be shifted towards the front, cuz the tranny would entirely fit in front of the axles.

[Oppenheimer]

For the rest of the running gear, spindles, brakes, hubs, etc, just use Subie stuff. It doesn't have to be WRX, almost anything will do, and since its so light it will still be more than enough stopping power.

Even our friend desde Columbia is going to use Subie parts for this. He is going to buy new, and will pay through the nose, but since its all small stuff its not as bad as buying the whole drivetrain.

That brings up another thought about nuestro amigo Columbiano waiting. On other FFR kits, they offer 'complete' kits, where you can source all the donor stuff as new parts right from FFR. If they do the same for the 818, I imagine our friend could manage to order the complete kit, but minus engine and tranny, so that all the other donor parts are part of the kit. Although its not legal to import new parts except through a dealer ($$$), it seems a kit is legal, and who is to say what parts are really options or not. The windshield and headlights are new OEM parts from another car that just happen to come with the kit. In this case there would just be more of such parts. So if our firend waits, it might be much cheaper to buy these same parts from FFR as part of the kit, than to buy them new from local Subie dealer.

Of course, he could also then buy the Subie engine and trans from FFR, but it sounds like he can get VW drivetrain so much cheaper, not to mention replacement parts when stuff wears out, that it would still be a better deal to fabricate in the VW stuff than buy new Subie drivetrain with kit.