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Thread: 33 Machine electric 818e build- Finish Line in Sight!

  1. #1
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    33 Machine electric 818e build- Finish Line in Sight!

    HEADLINES:

    http://green.autoblog.com/2014/04/28...ered-electric/


    http://gas2.org/2014/04/28/video-ele...es-much-sense/

    As most of you probably assumed by my input and comments I AM actually building an 818. Why not post the progress you ask? Good question. Here's the answer: It was determined that we would keep this on the skunk-works side of things until we pulled the curtain at SEMA. Well, that recently fell through and because there are others out there doing electric (the amazing Bob from Cincy comes to mind) I figured what's the point? Time to share.

    This is such an amazing candidate for electric that it has caused a major stir in the EV community. I had made my decision back in January that this would be the way I would go due to my interest in building outside the box as well as my background in racing RC cars. And it's amazing the similarities this new full scale technology has with it's smaller counterparts. For this project I have teamed with EV West who have already proven themselves to be incredible engineers as well as consummate professionals with an incredible track record in the EV racing circle.

    So here it is for those who are interested:

    Powertrain:
    HPEVS AC35x2 with Dual Curtis 144V motor controllers with water cooled chill plates Power Graph
    2002 Subaru 5sp manual with sport clutch and lightened flywheel
    EV West Water Jetted adapter plate and custom coupler
    50 Cell- CALB LiFe 3.2V 100Ah- 160V (144V - Sag)
    ELCON- PFC 5000 Charger
    DC to DC converter
    Custom aluminum battery boxes
    EVnetics Hall Effect throttle
    Bosch Charging Station
    Sparco Assetto Gara Wheels 18x8 -20lb (chosen for price point and light weight)
    Hankook Ventus v112k 215/40/18- 20lb (same)

    Expected Performance - We'll find out!
    Expected Range - ~60 Miles

    Last edited by ehansen007; 09-24-2014 at 09:02 AM.
    www.33machine.com

  2. #2
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    The shipped package we all know and love. Stewart Shipping will not be visiting here again I can assure you. Many problems in scheduling meant I had to have the Wookie meet them at the house while I was out of town on vacation for 3 days. Thanks Hodgie!




    Mine all mine.



    Most Parts all prepped and ready to go. Replaced all bearings as well. I'm not a fan of having a beat up car in the garage so I sourced parts from various sources including a guy that was parting out a shell for $500.

    Last edited by ehansen007; 09-30-2013 at 12:33 PM.
    www.33machine.com

  3. #3
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    Naked!



    Someone's ready at 7yrs old. he'll never get the keys...cause there won't be any!



    The ones I call when I need to lift the chassis and other miscellaneous heavy lifting. Give them a beer and they'll do anything.



    Some other friends drop by to start the build.



    What's wrong with this picture?
    Last edited by ehansen007; 09-30-2013 at 12:34 PM.
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  4. #4
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    Nothing like keeping it in the family. He's helping cut off a bolt here.



    After a hard days work it's time for a juice box and some thin mints (I saved on box just for the occasion)



    new rotors and pads from BrakeMotiv on ebay. $150. They worked great on the hot rod and they look even better. They won't rust either.


    Roller is done and waiting for wheels
    Last edited by ehansen007; 09-30-2013 at 12:35 PM.
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  5. #5
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    Time to get started on the battery placement. This Graham Cracker box is the same size as the CALB100.


    Fitting behind the firewall. Perfect!


    Now the nose. One battery box will go here for sure but those shifter cables may just clear it.


    Transmission being fitted


    Wood blocks for mockup only
    Last edited by ehansen007; 09-30-2013 at 12:40 PM.
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  6. #6
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    I got the carbon package with the kit so I thought this wheel would be a good match.


    I was amazed this worked. And worked well!

    l
    Rear diff removed


    I recently acquired this very important piece of equipment. As LongIslandWRX says "A well stocked beverage fridge is the key to any successful project."
    Last edited by ehansen007; 09-30-2013 at 12:45 PM.
    www.33machine.com

  7. #7
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    The guys from EV West come in big time here. They delivered these sweet wheels from Tire Rack so we could get them on the trailer and headed down to their shop.


    Moon buggy?


    Loading up


    Picked up the motor and controllers from HPEVs and brought them down to the shop.


    Mocking up battery boxes for placement


    Batteries are in. Guys please don't ask me how much this is all costing. It will only remind me.
    Last edited by ehansen007; 09-30-2013 at 12:50 PM.
    www.33machine.com

  8. #8
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    This is Michael Bream- engineer extraordinaire. He's using vinyl to mock up the adapter plate for the motor and putting it in SolidWorks

    VIDEO


    Speaking of solidworks, Michael had the entire frame in solidworks in one evening so we could determine battery placement. Please don't ask me for the file as it's not mine to give. However, it doesn't appear to be that hard if you have solidworks?

    VIDEO


    Here's a quick view of the shop. That BMW is amazing. Be sure to check out their page on it.
    Last edited by ehansen007; 09-30-2013 at 12:59 PM.
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  9. #9
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    Adapter plate back from Water jetting. We decided to go this route for time since we were still planning on SEMA.


    Checking motor position for front motor mount design.


    Yup, that bar is gone! The uniqueness of this motor has caused us to remove the cross bar from that section of the frame.


    Body mockup. This was fun as Mark Stackler and Jeff Miller were in town so we had a few beers and started putting things on like a bad Revel Snap tite model! Gorilla tape worked better than clamps!
    Last edited by ehansen007; 09-30-2013 at 01:04 PM.
    www.33machine.com

  10. #10
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    Front motor mount base created.


    Motor mount welded in as well as retro-fitted supports (re-used the bar I cut out..talk about recycling!)
    You can also see where I cut the old mounts off, then welded in a rail and tabs for the rear battery boxes. CG should be pretty good on this.


    Unfortunately, we had to cut this to get the front box in. I made a removable bar to go in it's place. It's a bummer for sure but I don't think it will affect the structure too much.
    Last edited by ehansen007; 09-30-2013 at 01:15 PM.
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  11. #11
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    Ok, done adding posts and pics for now. Thanks if some were waiting to comment. And thanks to those who knew about this project and were helping to keep quiet. Finally I'd like throw a big thanks out to Eric Kriss and Bob Grunewald for enduring and answering my questions on Electric Vehicle technology in the beginning. Their encouragement and expertise have been awesome and I couldn't have gotten here without them. If anyone has any questions, just let me know.

    e
    Last edited by ehansen007; 09-30-2013 at 01:14 PM.
    www.33machine.com

  12. #12
    So how much...

    I mean...


    Can I have the....

    errr...


    Very nice! It isn't hard to make a frame in SW, just tedious and time consuming to get it right. Very cool!

    Does that wheel come in a D/flat bottom variety? I'm looking to possibly replace my stocker with a smaller one.
    Zero Decibel Motorsports
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  13. #13
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mechie3 View Post

    Does that wheel come in a D/flat bottom variety? I'm looking to possibly replace my stocker with a smaller one.
    no, sorry, the carbon is limited edition and round only. I'm 6-1" and can get in an out easily though with it in. Let me know if you want one!
    www.33machine.com

  14. #14
    fasterer and furiouser longislandwrx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ehansen007 View Post
    I recently acquired this very important piece of equipment. As LongIslandWRX says "A well stocked beverage fridge is the key to any successful project."

    Amazing! I've been looking for one for a while, but haven't font the one I want at the right price. Well done, you just showed up everyone who has ever been on MTV cribs.


    Looking forward to watching you press throttle and turn gears into nice smooth circles.
    Last edited by longislandwrx; 09-30-2013 at 03:37 PM.
    A well stocked beverage fridge is the key to any successful project.

  15. #15
    Senior Member Xusia's Avatar
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    I like that wheel! Like Mechie3, I wish it was a flat bottom. Question about it though: Can you replace the NRG center piece with one from Factory Five (assuming you could get one)?

  16. #16
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    Probably. I think the FFR one is bigger but you could probably make it work.
    www.33machine.com

  17. #17
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    Nice motor! Electric with 5sp?
    Frank
    Chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
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  18. #18
    Honestly I'm surprised that you are using a clutch, for some reason I assumed there wouldn't be a need for one. Do most other electric cars have one too?
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  19. #19
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    Well, there are clutchless setups out there however shifting can be tedious. Also, this is the budget way for sure. I could have opted to buy something like a CVT or similar but it would have been thousands not hundreds. With this torque curve I may only be using 2nd, 4th, and 5th. Not sure yet. I think it will be fun and for those who have built them, they say you definitely want gears and not an auto.
    www.33machine.com

  20. #20
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Hey Erik
    Looking great. We need to talk.
    Bob

  21. #21
    Got my 818R last Fri. very interested in the carbon fiber wheel. Can you let me know cost etc. Thanks, Rick

  22. #22
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    That's an $ 7000 battery pack... 50 100AH CALB at around $140 each
    About the same $ for the motor and controllers
    add chargers, adaptor plate etc...
    easily $20,000 in the drivetrain! Should be very powerful and performance should be awesome
    Dan

  23. #23
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    I really don't understand the tranny on an electric motor, it's the first time I hear about more than 2 gears on an electric motor.
    Plz explain how this works. tnx
    Frank
    Chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
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  24. #24
    East Coast Speed Machines Erik W. Treves's Avatar
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    looking great!!
    FFR 1879, Blown DSS 306,REDLINE management, VeryCoolParts Tuned 460RWHP

    FFR 818S, The Flash, Chassis #5, 2.0L, LSD, Electromotive TEC-S, VCP Tuned, 278RWHP 265 RWTQ

    FFR 6651, Green Lantern, 408W Crate, Hellion 66mm Turbo, JGS Waste gate / Blowoff valve, Tec-GT management, VCP Tuned, 575 RWHP, 690 RWTQ

    FFR 8335, Black Mamba, 289 FIA CSX 2001 tribute car, 347, 48 IDA webers, VCP Tuned, 311 RWHP 386 RWTQ, 3-link, Trigo's

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  25. #25
    Amazing stuff!!! I am impressed

  26. #26
    Senior Member Xusia's Avatar
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    In regards to a clutch, couldn't you just cut power to the motor? Cutting power to allow for shifts is done in motorcycling all the time (search Google for quickshifters). You could wire a switch to the clutch pedal to simulate a clutch and accomplish this.

  27. #27
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xusia View Post
    In regards to a clutch, couldn't you just cut power to the motor? Cutting power to allow for shifts is done in motorcycling all the time (search Google for quickshifters). You could wire a switch to the clutch pedal to simulate a clutch and accomplish this.
    When you push in the clutch, the transmission synchronizers only have to bring a 2 lb clutch disk to the same speed as the transmission. So engagement is smooth. The clutch also acts as a torque limiter to the transmission. 300-500 ft lbs.

    On an EV the motor rotor is 40 to 80 lbs. The synchronizer can't match the motor to the transmission speed. So with no speed match and no torque limiter when the gear engages I suspect there is a few thousand foot lbs torque spike going through the transmission.
    I've seen multiple Formula Lightning EV teams blow their transmission on the first lap.
    bob

  28. #28
    If I'm not mistaken the graph is mislabelled, as IIRC electric motors make next to maximum torque right from zero rpm, hence why an electric motor when started DOL (switched on with no variable speed drive or current limiter) draws 6 times the rated full load current. Also horsepower is the product of torque and rpm, hence why the horsepower increases linear to the rpm
    I am open to correction if I'm wrong.
    I think you may want to look at a different final ratio as with maximum torque available from zero I think you may not need second gear also.
    I'm looking forward to watching your build log as I enjoyed watching you build your 33.

  29. #29
    Great progress Erik!
    Frank
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  30. #30
    Senior Member Xusia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    When you push in the clutch, the transmission synchronizers only have to bring a 2 lb clutch disk to the same speed as the transmission. So engagement is smooth. The clutch also acts as a torque limiter to the transmission. 300-500 ft lbs.

    On an EV the motor rotor is 40 to 80 lbs. The synchronizer can't match the motor to the transmission speed. So with no speed match and no torque limiter when the gear engages I suspect there is a few thousand foot lbs torque spike going through the transmission.
    I've seen multiple Formula Lightning EV teams blow their transmission on the first lap.
    bob
    Well that explains why people don't do that. I also had not considered the benefit of using the clutch as a torque limiter. With so much torque available so quickly, it makes sense.

  31. #31
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    I really don't understand the tranny on an electric motor, it's the first time I hear about more than 2 gears on an electric motor.
    Plz explain how this works. tnx
    basic old trade off

    if you want max eff you minimize gear train to minimize losses. Many EVs use very high voltage to get high RPM, if you do this you can get away with less or even a single gear. Lower RPM motors need add'l gears just like a gas engine... the torque max at min rpm of the electric means the regular gas engine 1st is too low and not needed. most early EV setups with low voltage motors used trannys. The adv of a clutch have been documented above. big torque with little mass = huge shock loads = very bad juju. also lower amp loads = less heat related losses at a given speed that requires higher gearing. Faster accel requires lower gearing... trans gives you both.
    Last edited by RM1SepEx; 10-01-2013 at 03:56 AM.
    Dan

  32. #32
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    Tnx Dan.
    Frank
    Chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    '05 Scoobie 2.5RS Wagon
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  33. #33
    I wondered why you have been so quiet on the forums. A very cool project!!
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  34. #34
    Very cool. Keep us updated. I can't wait to see it finished.

    JC
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  35. #35
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    So this motor gives 180wtq from 0 to 5000rpm?

    Any idea of the overall 818 weight?
    Frank
    Chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 GT3582R ~400whp/wtq+
    '05 Scoobie 2.5RS Wagon
    '12 KTM RC8R
    '04 Kawa ZZR600, slightly upgraded

  36. #36
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    as for weight we did this exercise with a 36 pack of batteries xand single AC 50 motor and it came out to almost a wash. I imagine this will be around 2000+ a little.
    www.33machine.com

  37. #37
    Senior Member VD2021's Avatar
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    Man......My EE is spilling out of me right now. I'm am so glad you are sharing this. Gotta love the torque curve (or should I say LINE).
    R/s
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  38. #38
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    A little Thursday morning fun




    Off to powdercoat!!

    I'm lucky to have great friends in the neighborhood.
    www.33machine.com

  39. #39
    fasterer and furiouser longislandwrx's Avatar
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    Now that's how you transport a kit!
    A well stocked beverage fridge is the key to any successful project.

  40. #40
    Administrator ehansen007's Avatar
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    Back from powdercoat


    Firewall going in


    Roller back in shape for transport



    I used the Evercoat Rubberized undercoating on the firewall.
    www.33machine.com

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