Frank818 -1993 VW VR6 Turbo donor- Build Thread

[BN]

This is sad

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Frank
The front axle CV joint can handle greater angle than that. Think about when the steering wheel is at full lock on the inside wheel.

In your picture, does the part that looks yellow cadmium plated. Can the hole be larger?
Also, with the shock installed, will the hub droop that low?
Bob

[Frank818]

Bob, the shaft is now limited by that yellow zinc plated cup, the hole where the boot is clipped is a LOT smaller than the size of the CV end, where the clip used to be. When it was there, it was hitting on the spindle and I couldn't spin the hub. They changed for that small boot and now the shaft hits the cup. Having HARD time trying to align the wheels to see if it's acceptable or not. So far I have 2mm of play at ride height with a so-so alignment. That is very very close.

I can't make the hole larger myself, I'd need a different boot for sure.

No when shock installed the blue lower lateral links are parallel to ground or a little aiming upwards, which is perfect for me. That's where I get 2mm of play.

I try to do my alignment to see exactly what play I'll be left with but it's so hard, I posted on Suspension cuz I wonder how to get the wheels square, same distance front of wheel and back of wheel so that I can do a proper toe adjustment. Toe plays a HUGE role in the shaft's clearance, I need to get it perfect and then see if I can run or not.

[Frank818]

Some more pix when I was able to get 2mm of play, but then I wasn't sure my wheels started off square, cuz my left tire was stuck on the trailing arm, I suspect my wheels where sideways and I adjusted toe based on that.

The blue links in the pix are when the car is at its lowest, which is 3.75in. I raised it up to 4.5 now.


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I'm taking some indigenous Quebec herbs premium dry gin right now, from the bottle, cuz this build is really hard. I still think I can make it, but it's so damn hard. Without this forum help I would fail miserably, though. lolll

[Frank818]

Ok, I'm going with it. It's EXTREME and probably no one on this forum would accept that. I don't, but I need to get this **** registered! It's most probably driveable (nothing tells me it won't), it's F1 extreme precision and clearance/tolerance, but since these parts don't move (other than spin) there's no reason for a problem.

After almost 25h of shaft fitting and wheel alignment, this is the best result I can come up with.


At ride height, lateral links are parallel to ground, although on the second pic it doesn't look much, I can tell yes. I also ensured each side's links are perfectly parallel to each other (at 10.5" from gound, btw). Ride height is set at 4.5" rear, as I can't get the front lower than 4.7" or something, I don't understand why as FFR recommends 4.5" (to frame or to body?).

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This is my full geek techno 4-corner square system, oh yeah baby.

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Surprise!!!! My 10mm front LCA spacers (TNX A LOT CRAIG 0DB, if you read this) gave me camber I wasn't expecting! The most camber at front I can get on driver's side is -0.80deg, which I'm fine with, it's more than what FFR recommends. I don't need to cut those upper A-arms' studs! Passenger's max camber was -1.50deg!!! I lowered it to match -0.80 of course.

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Ok my shaft problem. Drive shaft that is. Car drive shaft. Gee, we always need to have no double meaning when we talk to guys. lolll After exhausting alignment, I have 2mm of play at ride height and maybe 0.5mm when the suspension is so high that the wheel is barely touching the ground, which is a little more than what a car should ever see (unless I jump!!!). When I lift the wheel completely, it touches gently the CV boot cup. That's not very good, but since there is clearance when the shaft spins in any normal condition, I'm accepting it. Plus, nothing will blow up if it rubs, the cup will bend, the boot will probably pop off, some dirt might go inside the CV, so what, I'll take a look often at the CV and I'll see!
I may ask DSS to find a different solution even if I need to grind the spindles, but I can't wait now another 2 months before I start that engine. I know I can get the car registered with this and drive it, carefully, so I'm moving ahead as is.

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I realized TOE has a HUUUUGE effect on the gap between the shaft and CV boot cup, so I went more than FFR's recommendation of 3/16 total, I went to 4/16, which is pretty much the max, more than that and tire wear should be quite noticeable. But driveability should be about the same, compromise accepted. I told ya, this build is a build of compromises, sad but that's how it is. I'll make that VR6 turbo fit, period.

I also set rear camber at -0.20, FFR recommends min of -0.25. The less camber I have the more gap between shaft and cup and since I need maximum tire contact to surface, more camber wasn't an option much.

Now I need to put back the popped-off boot on the CV, could take 5mins or 5hours if I need to remove the suspension to get the axle completely off, buy a clip (3 weeks delivery certainly) and fit it.



And this is the thing that helped me worked in the past 2 days.

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I know I'm crazy. Not for the gin but for what's above.

[DSR-3]

Thanks for posting about your efforts. Keep plugging away!
I like the string-buckets! No yelling at the kids when the kick a jack-stand.
At some point, you should safety wire the bolts on your inner CV joints. The can loosen- been there...
*When you wrote about indigenous Quebec herbs- I did NOT think you meant Nordic Juniper!

[Hindsight]

Frank, it looks like you have not made much of a dent in that bottle

I too like the string bucket idea. Much more stable and less wobbly than jack stands. I'm going to have to borrow that idea!

[choobs]

You just can't catch a break on this build Frank. I'll tip a few sniffer glasses of gin back just for this build. Looks like you are still making progress though and haven't thrown in the towel so that is a plus!

[Frank818]

I should have been giving a little more details on the Quebec Herbs, yeah.

It's actually my 2nd bottle, there was some left in another one. It's gone, now. The 1st bottle I mean, not the second.

I failed to prove the strings are very precise, I couldn't re-conciliate the results by other means, but it's precise enough (good enough) for now and I'm pretty sure I won't feel it on the road, so it's fine for registration and then driving to an alignment shop. Maybe driving all the time too, I'll see. Worst case tires will wear faster but do you think I care about tires? That's so easy to get and replace compared to all the issues I'm going through.



I have made more progress:

In the end I couldn't put the clip back on the boot. The cup is too damaged, can't have it perfectly round again. Plus, the lip is smaller than the rubber where the clip tightens, the clip is 1/4" and the lip is almost 1/8 or 3/16. Therefore not possible to have it on again, it pops off within secs after I put the clip on.

I mailed DSS (we've exchanged 96 emails on that thread since my order in Sept) and asked to ship me 2 normal boots with a set of clips. I will remove the outer boots, remove the yellow cup and fit a standard boot on with pinch-style clips (http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/d...d09de887bc.jpg) and crush the metal bit where you pinch so that it will clear, should clear, the spindle. If it doesn't, I'll cut a section off of the spindle, or grind it. Basically going back to my previous CV setup, except I will use a different clip and will do it myself with my mech. Not sending the axles back for a 3rd time.

[Frank818]

Front Camber-Caster-Tire rubbing solved!

I would like to thank VERY MUCH CRAIG from ZERO DB!!!

The LCA spacers I asked him to reproduce based on the design I had solved 3 issues in one easy step, preventing me from spending a lot of time and work on fixing the issues by other means.

He doesn't show those spacers on his website, but it works only with the 2006 alu LCAs.

I have more than the recommended camber. I didn't measure caster yet but to eye I can clearly see the wheel tilting at full lock and I still have adjustment possible on the A-arms. And then my 215/40/17 leave over 5mm of clearance to the frame at full lock. Sure it might be close with the alu panel on, but I can easily use a 2 to 5mm wheel spacer on the hubs if I really need it.

I consider these 3 potential "issues" solved before they could ever happen, all that tnx to Craig, the CNC guy with 3 kids. (oops! It's actually 1 and half kid at the time of writing this, I had it totally wrong)


That's one solution that worked a lot better than expected on this build.

[Mechie3]

Whoa whoa whoa! I have the kids now? That explains a lot.

Glad those worked out!

[longislandwrx]

Now I need to put back the popped-off boot on the CV, could take 5mins or 5hours if I need to remove the suspension to get the axle completely off, buy a clip (3 weeks delivery certainly) and fit it.

can you push the inner side of the boot closer to the hub? it would be less likely to pull off if it had some pressure on it.

cant you just pick up a universal boot clamp at the autopart store to get you rolling?

[Frank818]

can you push the inner side of the boot closer to the hub? it would be less likely to pull off if it had some pressure on it.

cant you just pick up a universal boot clamp at the autopart store to get you rolling?

No, the boot doesn't go any further than the small lip, for 2 reasons, any more and it would have so much extension it wouldn't stay with my 4" axle angle stretching even more the boots, and the boot diameter is too small to move over the next section of the cup. It's really a bad design for my setup.

I tried the universal clamps (2) this morning and it doesn't stay on anymore, it slides off after a few secs, the cup is no more perfectly round so the clip doesn't fit perfect. I tried hammering gently on the lip to bring it as round as possible but it's not 100% and now the boot slides off by its own stretching force. Even if I get it on, I'm sure it will come off once I roll, I really need a better solution.

[longislandwrx]

looks like theres a pretty deep channel where the boot goes, did you try using some safety wire and twisting until it pulls the boot into the groove?

[Frank818]

We only tried 3 clips. When tightening the clip, it actually pulls the boot off the cup instead of into the grooves. Probably cuz the lip has rolled and bent. The more I unbend the lip, the less clearance I will have on the shaft, I can't unbend more than what it is now.

On the run it's safer to use a different boot, but it would have been great to roll the car a little then remove all the suspension to remove the shafts and swap to newer boots.

[Frank818]

Hey LongIslanders(Rangers), I tried your trick with safety wires. Same result, the boot pops out by itself.

Contacted DSS, they will ship me boots and clips.


However, I am the happiest man on earth that I still have those axles issues.
Redfogo contacted me about how I wired my alternator with InfinityBox. Couldn't remember, went and checked and I guess what, I wired the 4 or 6-gauge positive wire to... THE FRAME!!!!!!! Yeah, THE FRAME!!!! Sounds like the title of a blockbuster horror movie, but starting up the engine without fixing this would have destroyed my entire build! He just saved my build!!

[Frank818]

While I am again waiting for parts (CV boots), I started working on the body, without rear wheels on (little risk here, to not know where the wheels are centered)

Uh, I'm shocked. Impressed. There's no real challenge. lolll Panels seem to fit pretty well without forcing anything. Just the rear of lower front fenders I have to change shape in order to push them on the side sails. Besides, I have a 1/4" gap challenge on the top-of-door-to-hump-lid section and a little too much clearance around the nose insert and fenders.

All these seem to be pretty easy to fix. I'm used to fight against major challenges every day for the past 2 years and now that I've started the body, it's so easy! I won't complain.


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Anybody could tell me your measurements on these 3?

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[Frank818]

The new nose is awesome. The panels quality is a notch above chassis #181, they glassed the inside of the panels, which looks glossy and prevents most fibre from fibreglass to poke through your fingers. The gel coat is also smoother with much less asperities than #181. I wish all my panels were like this, thumbs up FFR (btw my driver vs pass fenders are exactly the same length or not more than 1/4" which is easily adjustable)


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[Frank818]

So the gaps are great, easily adjustable. So far besides 2-3 adjustments that require a little more time, there is nothing major. No challenge at all with the body, which is contrasting, I've been fighting every day (and every night when it woke me up) for 2 freakin years trying to fit the VR6 and now the body is like child's play. Not that I'm complaining.

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My panels have been sitting on the ground for 2 damn years. Why are they in so good shape? Well maybe FFR built them correctly to start with, but for the rest, I think it's a matter of how they are stored. I put something smooth underneath all panels, something that would take the shape of the panel based on gravity. I re-used paper/bubble wrap from FFR's boxes (god knows we got a LOT of it) and I think it helped. 1st pic is the hood and 2nd is driver's side side sail with the doors on the background. Mind the bike, this is for winter training on a roller.

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[svanlare]

It is about time something went together easy! I only have one panel attached at the moment, and I'm thrilled seeing it look more car shaped. With all of them on, that has to feel great. Love seeing it coming together.

[Frank818]

Tnx Steve, yeah the feeling is a lot different and I think I'm going to enjoy playing around with body panels, on the contrary to what I always thought. How ****ing ironic since most people seemed to have sweared a lot when it came to body fitment.

Let me tell you after fitting one rear wheel in the fender and looking at the look, that felt awesome. The rear looks fat I love it and the 265s are flush-flush with the fender, based on the even gaps between fender and humps lid (that may slightly change). I'd even say the very outside of the sidewall is slightly outside the fender but all the threads are inside, it's pretty cool.

On the front, there is plenty of space to push the wheels to the outside, adding spacers or wider tires or both. I may well use 225/40s instead of 215/40s.


However I suggest not to secure or drill holes on the body until you get a good alignment on all 4 wheels.
Caster could change how the front wheels get centered in the fender and rear lower/upper trailing links can also change that. I realized this morning.

Since my rear wheels are pulled backwards to accomodate the bad CV boot config (clearance required), I am losing about what I need to gain back in order to have the rear wheels centered. I'm hoping my new boots will allow me to push the rear wheels 1/8" to 1/4" fwd, which is what I need to have the lateral links parallel to their frame brackets and then centered in the fenders.

Then on the front I know the caster is not fully adjusted yet I may gain the very small shift backwards I have at the moment. Although leaving them as is probably no one would notice.

But to perform my alignment I need my axles on! For about the 5th time in 7 months my axles are slowing me down. I am expecting the new boots to come in tomorrow and if I'm lucky by Sat 28th my axles would be on the car again and everything will cascade: good wheel alignment, engine starting, fixing leaks (but of course), body alignment, body install, interior finish, etc.

In the meantime I was able to fill the gap between the humps lid and top of side sails where the doors close. Easy as 1-2-3+dremel.


2 things are left unknown so far, one will probably be my biggest body challenge:

1- I don't know yet how to know if I get the height of the front panels (fenders and nose insert) right (ground clearance correct and even all around the front);
2- The stupid gas filler tube needs to be pushed a lot fwd and it seems to be too high wrt the hole I drilled for the cap. It was working when I aligned all that a while back but now it doesn't and I wonder what changed. I've seen harder ordeals on this build but it's the fuel tube, it has to be perfectly secured and without much stress I don't want this thing to fail on me. If it fails from the bottom on the tank, you know what happens next.

[Frank818]

Just bought this: http://www.topgear.com/car-news/moto...do-0-330mph-4s

Now, who thinks I'm saying the truth? loll

[STiPWRD]

On the front, there is plenty of space to push the wheels to the outside, adding spacers or wider tires or both. I may well use 225/40s instead of 215/40s.

You're running 17's in front right? For some reason no one makes 225/40/17 tires (unless you want hoosier slicks). It's either 215/40/17 or 235/40/17.

Just bought this: http://www.topgear.com/car-news/moto...do-0-330mph-4s

Now, who thinks I'm saying the truth? loll

hah, why do they even bother calling it a camero

[Bob_n_Cincy]

hah, why do they even bother calling it a camero

MONEY, It's a bait and switch when you get to the dealership.

Why does Nascar still call them STOCK cars?

[Frank818]

You're running 17's in front right? For some reason no one makes 225/40/17 tires (unless you want hoosier slicks). It's either 215/40/17 or 235/40/17.

Oh crap you're absolutely right I totally forgot about that possibility. Then 225/40/18 (25" OD) or 235/40/17 (24.3" OD) or 225/45/17 (24.8" OD). Don't like the last option, probably too fatty sidewalls relative to width and first option is probably too tall to fit easily without rubbing (plus I need new rims which are discontinued if I recall). I'll put that aside and come back on tires only if front wheels lock up too often.

Why does Nascar still call them STOCK cars?

Now that's interesting!

[Frank818]

The axles are done. Done, done. If they fail, it's a design problem on my end.

Got my boots and clamps from DSS. I asked for extra clamps. He sent extra BOOTS and clamps along with 2 CV grease cups, the kind you pee in for labo exam, except there wasn't any pee in.

Right. So DSS what great, all that for free + free Canada shipping. And it worked.

I had to crush on the clamp tiny bit you squeeze to tighten it, to make sure it wouldn't rub on the spindle. In fact, I was expecting some grinding but NO, nothing at all! **** all, like we say. I made a dance. Then on the second boot, same thing, no grinding required! Another dance.

I have much more play on the CVs! More than what my angles are at, which is perfect, means I'm not reaching the limits. So far they both spin and the boots don't come off! This thing is over after 7 months of R&D.

Took 6h to re-install both spindles/axles. Left a few cuts on both my hands but hey. Oh, I forgot to attach the e-brake cables. Yes I have to remove the red-loctited-calipers botls for the what 7-8th time. Oh well.

Now I can adjust the wheels to fit centered in the fenders. Need alignment on all 4 wheels again, pour coolant in, oil in and it's ready for a start. Probably around May 29th if weather is good and I don't screw up on something.

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[mikeb75]

Super anxious for your start-up. Ready to kart it then also?

[svanlare]

great news.

Remember, we need video!

[Rasmus]

I can imagine the R&D nightmare getting those axles correct has been. Good on you.

[Hindsight]

Congrats Frank! Long time coming.

[BN]

great news.

Remember, we need video!

I agree

[Frank818]

Super anxious for your start-up. Ready to kart it then also?

Anxious and nervous I am. I know my hand will shake when I'll press the START button on my tablet.

Remember, we need video!

Oh yeah! I need that too, I have to immortalize the 1st start, even it's not starting or constantly stalling. lolll

I can imagine the R&D nightmare getting those axles correct has been. Good on you.

Tnx. Yeah a nightmarem took 4 generations. I mean not my great-grand-father, grand-father, father and me (succeeding), but rather 4 gens of axles.
It's similar to your engine nightmare issues. But you too are getting out of it.



Update on Steps before 1st start:
1- Getting my rear spindles ready
2- Installing axles and rear spindles
3- Completing wiring
4- Plugging wiring
5- Finishing coolant lines
6- Stiffening throttle cable
7- Upgrading my InfinitiBox with new rules
8- Installing shift cables
9- Fixing shifter brackets
10- Installing tunnel cover and rear ebrake cover
11- Completing AWIC tank support bracket
12- Bleeding brakes
13- Fixing and Bleeding clutch
14- Fixing rear shock tower brace
15- Filling engine with oil
16- Filling trans with oil
17- Filling engine with coolant
18- Temporary installing dash and console to test all gauges
19- Upgrading ECU to latest software
20- Tuning a few ECU parms
21- Testing wiring
22- Fixing DSS CV issue
23- Replacing front spindles
24- Somehow attaching my phone somewhere on the car so I can use both hands to control my laptop (ECU), tablet (car), shifter and s/w at the same time
25- First start!

Nothing is preventing me from first start. Up to my own time now.

[Frank818]

I forgot to mention.

Found a better trick, more precise, for the alignment. On my floor, as you can see on various pix on this page and previous ones, I have tiles. 1'x1' tiles. They form a perfect line between tiles and all the way front-back of the garage. I put the frame perfectly parallel to these lines and adjusted square all 4 wheels independently, using the lines on each side of the frame. A complete alignment took me 3h, much much faster than the 1st time with strings and 5-gal tanks.

My only challenge is the rear right wheel. It's less than 1/8 clearance to the lower trailing arm. Left one has plenty, not sure why that difference. I need a tad over 3/16 clearance to pass inspection. Wheel spacer won't do the trick, cuz my tire is already a little bit outside the fender after I tested with the rear covers and bumper on. I think a 2mm spacer, which would bring me just over 3/16, would push out the tire too much. I'm not sure if I modify the forward spacers of the trailing arm if it'd help much. I could cut the left spacer and push the arm inside the engine bay but how much do I need to get 2mm, I have to check.
Pushing the wheel out with the lower lateral links doesn't help much, I have to then use the upper link to reduce camber (4-deg of camber at the back! lolll) but I'm close to being out of threads.

[choobs]

Great news, Frank! Can't wait to hear this beast run and see you karting around a bit!

[Frank818]

Ready to kart it then also?

I plan on karting it until it's all stable. I'm not equipped to move the car around I need a towing so the less I do the better, although I'm sure it will be a lot of fun to kart.

[Frank818]

No engine start for another while.

While pouring coolant through the head, after about 5L it started to leak. Badly. At the second worst place: the thermostat housing. It's still leaking as we speak, into an oven pan which I hope will be sufficient.

I estimate an 8-hour job to fix this thing and clean the engine, lateral link, gearbox bell housing, wires, oil coolant hoses, etc.

[Frank818]

Not much. Waiting on better clamps for my coolant hoses.

After the double thermostat housing leak, I removed most parts and re-did the sealing.

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All my hoses under 1" diameter leaked around the clamps. The worm ones I was using were just ****. Bought some t-bolts from UK instead of China so that I will get them this week instead of in a month.

Poured oil in engine and oil cooler. Seems ok so far.

Installed dash with gauges and everything electric, for my first start. And my fuel gauge fix is working!


While I was there I tested my new 40w 4000lumens (each) LED H9 bulbs. They have a fan that illuminates red. Super White. They seems to work pretty well. Low beam on the 2nd pic below and high beam on the 3rd pic. There were 12000lumens bulbs but I won't drive at night often (maybe once per 5 years?).

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Had to remove the glass around the bulb to slide it in the hole. It's a bad design cuz the socket is glued on the rubber around the bulb. If you install them and remove them 3-4 times like I did, the glue fails. I fixed it.

High beam shutter is slow. When you flash high beams it's not as quick as non-projector lights.

[Hindsight]

Nice looking lights!

[Frank818]

Yeah, ****, I wanted a simple electric system, one that draws as least as possible. 40w is still less than the std 55w halogen so that's good. And unlike those 25yo VW headlights, it's also 40w as high beams! Tnx to projector headlamps. My upgraded Euro Corrado headlights were 90w/100w!!! Now I got 40w/40w. lolll Technology, technology... can't live without. I remember at first when I was powering those 200w high beams after a few seconds the fuse would blow up and shut all my lights including low beams. lolll Good old modified VWs! I miss my Corrado. For now...


Yeah 32 bucks US a set, man. Advice for everyone, when buying LED headlights, you "must" not be fooled by those 7watts bulbs. They are ****ing **** as headlights, even though the description often says "headlights" or "low beams". Those 5 bucks bulbs, ****ing crap as headlights.

A std headlight bulb is about 3000 lumens. Watts as LED vs watts as halogen = not the same at all. On top of that, it's not cuz the LED bulb has 30w that it's gonna be sufficient. You have to look at lumens. I've seen 30w LED bulbs and they claimed 1800 lumens. Not enough to me.

[Aero STI]

Those LED lights look pretty legitimate. Do you have a link?