Frank818 -1993 VW VR6 Turbo donor- Build Thread

[Frank818]

Sure thing Andrew.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/272156154495?item=272156154495

That ebay seller (fastandfurious06) really is fast and furious! From HK in about 5-7 business days! Never seen that.

I like those LEDs so much I'm going to buy a set of H1s for my Impreza, which I do use at night once in a while.

[STiPWRD]

Sure thing Andrew.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/272156154495?item=272156154495

That ebay seller (fastandfurious06) really is fast and furious! From HK in about 5-7 business days! Never seen that.

I like those LEDs so much I'm going to buy a set of H1s for my Impreza, which I do use at night once in a while.

Thanks for posting, I'll have to take closer look at these. The light output and color seem similar to the HID bulbs I was looking at but these LED bulbs would save me the trouble of dealing with ballasts.

[Frank818]

1475h later...............



Hummm, no explosion or pop of any kind... That's fuel or spark, cuz I know compression is already fine.
Spark works fine, I can see the sparks off of the plugs when I test them outside their holes. I'm sure it's fuel. The cyls are dry after 10-12 crank attempts! Well, let's try with some gas, just in case I see a difference.

https://youtu.be/HaywmS0HMas


No difference. After all, I swapped the ****ing fuel lines, the IN was in the OUT and OUT in the IN. Grrrrrrrrr


https://youtu.be/kFLoTI-3Am8

Ok now that works! I've ressucitated the engine. It's been totally dry for 2 years so it takes a while to get back to stable, plus I figured out my fuel map needs to be completely redone! I needed to increase by about 40% my fuel at idle! That's a lot. But it ran at idle for 3-4mins, water temps reaching almost 50C.

Then, I saw some fumes coming out, thought it was left over oil burning on the turbo, but... no!!


https://youtu.be/aywhL9jpe98


Ok, time for a shut down.



Sorry I don't have a 30sec+ engine sound video, it wasn't easy with my cell phone taped on the roll bar.


Results of these many engine starts:

Issues and misses found:
- Found 1 major coolant leak and 3 minor ones

- The above major yielded to a bit of coolant inside the starter ring gear and who knows maybe the clutch. This will seize it most probably, which means I'll have to follow a procedure to unseize it (no need to remove trans, thank god!)

- Slightly leaking VW coolant reservoir

- Oil low/high warning light constantly blinking on the cluster after engine start
- Can't engage ANY gear when engine is running

- Very slightly leaking clutch slave (had a major fail on the master last year and now something on the slave. That's 0 on 2)

- One very small oil leak around one oil pan bolt

Other hits and comments:
- Burned a little my hand when I needed to flush my coolant in order to prevent 1-1.5gals to leak from the thermostat housing. Yeah I needed to remove all of the exhaust for that, hence the heat!
- The Porsche racing starter is awesome and really quick. Plus, it makes a really nice sound. You may think I'm dumb, but starter sound is important to me. Listen to those Hondas how crappy the cranking sound is!!! (at least for 90's 00's models) Well that's it.

- After some Neanderthal fuel map adjustments, the engine starts quicker and with more punch than when on my Corrado. Look promising after a real map!
- Even if my fuel map was raw, the idle was damn stable at cold engine start. I've always had issues on the Corrado when cold, it was hard to crank, hard to rev up at cranking and always oscillating up and down on the RPM for a few secs. Nothing like that here, it cranks and increases RPMs as fast as a shooting gun and comes back to stable idle, vrrrrOUUUMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmm like that, perfectly OEM. This engine configuration has a lot of potential!
- Battery can crank and crank and crank and crank without the need to recharge and without losing power (Optima red top)
- Not too much carbon coming out of the exhaust (less than on the Corrado with a MUCH longer exhaust)
- Engine is NOT vibrating/moving at all. The awesome engine mounts are keeping it right in place and I don't really feel the car vibrating either
- No clearance issues around the bottom of the gearbox (about 1/16 in 3-4 places between gearbox and frame)
- Engine sound. hahahahahah really? Well, it's quieter than expected for one! It rumbles, a bit like you guys with your Subaru's. But differently. It's deep too, of course with a 3" all the way. No pops. No unwanted frequencies (just like the muffler claimed). Very stable sound wave prediction, once you hear the pattern, predictable, the engine seems happy (I'm not, yet). On the video you can hear it too close to the lifters so you mostly hear the lifters clicking. Typical cell phone recording of a typical VR6, more higher freqs and less low freqs. More on the sound once I fix my issues.


I've got potential solutions for all issues. Time (again!!) will tell.

I admit that I went through a LOT of issues on this build. And not one simple thing has gone right the first time. That's hard on the will to continue, but I won't stop, I'm unstoppable.

[AZPete]

Congrats, Frank! It's been a long haul and you found a few kinks but remember that a LOT of things were done right to make the engine run. I always look forward to your posts and I've learned a lot from them. Congrats on this milestone! You deserve a cool one.

[mikeb75]

Obligatory congrats on the first start! Actually, more than that- you've earned it!

[STiPWRD]

Great job Frank! It's been a long time coming, but I'm sure it was worth it.

[redfogo]

Great job Frank! Making great progress! Sounding pretty sweet! Your shop looks so clean wish I could say the same!
Have you tried to just do a pressure test on the coolant system? Before I started mine I rented a pressure tester from autozone. It helped me find the small leaks that I know I would not have found without a big mess. Some also only started leaking after 10psi of pressure so it helped find those as well. They also work great for getting coolant into all the right places.

[Frank818]

Tnx guys. It's true there's more positive than negative.

Although one last milestone for left me, the real one: rolling the car with the axles. Because of the angle, this project cannot be a success until I ensure the axles can take the angle. Now it's a matter of fixing my clutch, I hope the Subaru clutch pedal has enough travel to push enough fluid volume into the Porsche C4 slave. That's why I can't engage gears, the clutch isn't fully depressed. I'm now over the max on the C bracket screwed to the clutch pedal rod, I think half the threads aren't threaded. Hopefully that'll work. Lengthening the rod? Yes, but how much more before I bottom the inner piston.

Too late for pressure tester now. lolll After 15psi all leaks have shown up. But granted would have been a great idea.

[Canadian818]

Congratulations Frank, it's been quite the journey! Keep at it, I can't wait for your go-cart vid, what's left before you attempt it?

[Harley818]

Hey nice work Frank. The journey is great, but reaching milestones is even better!

[Hindsight]

Congrats Frank!

[svanlare]

Great job and congrats on the first start! As Pete pointed out, a huge amount of things need to be right to get to this point, now you are on to the debugging stage instead of the getting it working stage. The engine sounds great so definitely looking forward to the next video when you have things sorted a bit more.

1475h later...............

I threw out my spreadsheet for both hours and $$$ at some point, I'm much happier not knowing

Congrats again on the start!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Good Job Frank.
Blazing new paths takes time.
Bob

[Mechie3]

I threw out my spreadsheet for both hours and $$$ at some point, I'm much happier not knowing

Congrats again on the start!

Ditto! Congrats on the start, and I also threw out my spreadsheet, and the video camera. Haha!

Person A: "how much have you spent on your car?"
Me: "I stopped counting around $20k"
Person A: "oh, so I can build one for $20k?"
Person B: "No, that's just when he stopped counting"

[Frank818]

Tnx guys. I don't mind counting the time, I want to know how long it'll take for such R&D. I stopped on the money, although I still invest bits and pieces every month but it's never a lot. There's WAY too much R&D involved to give me a max $ on the build. Speaking of which, I now found 2 weird issues I'm out of ideas for and was wondering if you guys know more than me on that.

But first, a video!!



What's left, Adam?
Well, who knows! Once I fix something, I found another problem, so I can't tell what's next cuz I can't guess what other issues I'll hit before go-kart.

Here are some. Now that the coolant is fixed, the oil is fixed and I can idle the engine no problem (although it runs at 1200rpm with 70C temps, still requires adjustments but doesn't prevent me from starting), I found 2 issues I am not really happy about.

1- My flex bellow leaks! In the video on the far left you can see the fumes, it's almost like someone smoking cigarette. Why would a new bellow leak like that and what can I do to fix it without re-doing the exhaust or removing the bellow? Wrap with lava wrap?

2- I think the Subaru clutch is incompatible with the Porsche gearbox. I am now bottoming out the piston and I still need more pressure on the slave to engage gears. I was able to engage 2-3-4th (didn't try 5th) and roll the car fwd ONE inch, but in R when I try to roll the shifter shakes, the gear's not in fully. 1st doesn't exist, that may be a different problem. I need to get more pressure on the slave. Maybe my small leak on the slave reduces pressure? And maybe I still got air in the system?


I also realized how HOT my coolant hoses above the muffler get. The car is just at idle, not even at operating temps, and the hoses are super hot. I reckon some parts of them are less than 1" from the muffler but I'll have to find a solution to get them away and protect them better. I knew going overkill on the heat protection wasn't an option. I need to go double overkill now.

Engine makes a lot of constant grey smoke, probably fuel adjustments required.

[Hindsight]

Very cool Frank - you are getting closer. You will definitely have one of the most uniquely powered 818s out there when finished, and the sound..... oh the sound. Not sure why but the VR6 has always been a favorite of mine when it comes to sound. I remember when they first came out, I was in my early 20's driving various 4 cylinder VWs... 16v, 8v, 1.8, 2.0 liters etc, in MK1s and MK2s. A friend of mine had a 1995 OBDI VR6 GTI. With just a chip, removing passenger seat, and removing the headlight in front of the air filter, he ran a 14.7 in the 1/4 which was real fast for back then. Another friend put a VF Engineering supercharger kit on his and was basically the fastest thing on the road at the time. I have a lot of love for the VW VR6 engine, though I only had two cars car with one: First a '97 Jetta GLX which I had a few years and then traded for a 20v VR6 in a 2003 GLI. I still miss that GLI. The best all-around car I have owned and the first car I bought new.




So do you have a goal date for first go-kart? I quite setting date goals because I never made them and would just get angry lol.

[RM1SepEx]

Frank, I can relate, I've done everything at least 2 times. Feels great to get that first breath of life! Nice gob, congrats!

[Canadian818]

It's a long journey, but it'll be worth it. It can be a real kick in the pants though seeing how seemingly easy others would appear to have it. I've spent a few full days now in the garage trying to finish up the brakes, and in the meantime Wayne has built an entire car!

[Frank818]

I flushed my coolant 5 times, ****. 5 times a mess. lolll

Yeah there's something about not using a Subaru engine that makes builds very hard to complete. And the poor Dan did the entire body twice! The more I think about it, the more you have to be crazy to fit a totally different engine that has yet no recipe for completion.

I was so stubborn I wanted SOUND, cuz it's open top and it's a toy. Not much can beat the VR6 on the sound/price ratio and it's also relatively compact, now I understand how VW fitted a V6 into the engine bay of 4cyls!

I think you meant 24v VR6 into your 2003 GLI? And for some reason, the VR never sounded the same into a Golf, Jetta or Passat than Corrado. There was something about that exhaust in the Corrado... or was it just me. Although the R32 was quite special too.

Goals? Gee... Go-kart goal, I can't have any, cuz I have no idea yet what the hell is going on with the gearbox. If I have to bring the car to my mech's shop, go-kart will be in 2017! And completion in 2018. If he needs to remove the trans, I'll pay him BIG BUCKS to do it in my home garage and leave with the trans in the trunk of his or my car. I have to keep the car here to work on the body, but I don't have the mind to work on the body until we decide what to do with the trans, it's making me very very nervous. This trans is Porsche damn it and my mech has rebuilt a lot of them, the last thing I was expecting not to work is the trans.

These R&D builds are FULL of very bad devils in the details. Meaner than Bart Simpson.

[RM1SepEx]

Frank, I've had my engine out because of a knocking sound from a roll over donor and pulled apart the transaxle 6 times.... it's all just what happens when you start with unknown stuff.

[Hindsight]

Hah, yeah, that's right, 24 valve. Not sure how one would put 20 valves in a 6 cylinder hahah.

[Frank818]

Damn, Dan! 6 times the trans?? Ok well I'll be getting there soon enough. lollll Yeah everything's unknown on my build, I have to accept that.

Mr Atlanta, 20v on a 6cyl is easy, it's 3.33 valves per cyl, basically you get 4 cyls with 4 valves and 2 cyls with 2. That would be a freakin weird head/cam combo, eh? lolll


Right so on the flex bellow leak, probably just some chemical product burning, as I didn't have that smoke on my previous 60C engine warm up and now at 71C I do (and I had coolant leak on the exhaust previously). Plus, the fumes go straight up, slowly, without any velocity, which is really not what's happening 4in after the turbo. I think I'm ok.

On the trans and clutch. Well, I'm rebuilding my ****ing clutch line and re-bleeding the entire ****ing system. Buying a new 5ft line to get rid of the twist in the line which may cause less fluid to flow. Then I have bought this thing:



http://www.bmpdesign.com/product-exec/product_id/8577

Should help me bleeding. Apparently the Porsche stuff is hard to bleed and if not perfect gears may be hard to engage. Since I did it by hand with the normal downhill-air-exit and it was the 1st time in my ****ing life, there's not ****ing way I could have done it right.

Texas product, viva USA!

[Frank818]

Why is it the above link shows up a thumbnail but my personal videos don't? That's not fair, FFR forum!

[choobs]

its always 1 thing going well with this project and 4 things going wrong! But it starts, it didn't catch fire yet...so there is light at the end of the tunnel once the clutch/gearbox situation is taken care of! I think if I were to do a similar build, I'd find a way to mate the STI box with the VR6 and deal with figuring out a clutch solution over the axle/trans issues you are having here. But still, big accomplishment to have the car this far Frank!

I flushed my coolant 5 times, ****. 5 times a mess. lolll

That is just the VW ownership experience!

And for some reason, the VR never sounded the same into a Golf, Jetta or Passat than Corrado. There was something about that exhaust in the Corrado... or was it just me.

the VR6 was also in the Passat of Corrado vintage, probably sounded just as good! I think the Corrado just has much less sound reducing material and the light tossable body certainly helps too On a serious note, the 12v just seems to sound better overall when compared to the 24v even though I know that, mechanically, the 24v is superior.

[Frank818]

Hey choobs! Where's your build at? And Corrado?

After reading, I wasn't convinced the STI trans could handle 400wtq on RWD (which is about 800 on AWD, not too many Subarus with that). Besides, the gears are too short and it was a series of compromises to get different gears and not necessarily the ratios I would prefer. With the G50, I change whichever gear(s) I want, no compromise other than money. Money comes with time, so that's easy. lolll Plus, the gear ratios on the market are numerous! A lot of choices. Since I put a lot of attention and money on a trans, knowing how much a diff it can do to a car, the G50 was the right choice for me, long term. And I know it can handle 500+, it's not the turbo version but still 500+.

It's true, the 24v had a different sound, less mechanical, less like I prefer. 12v is definately not a technological engine by today's stds, but I didn't want a Grand Turismo 6 engine, I wanted something super simple, not too many parts, easy to run and tune. No EGR, no fog pump, no OBD2, no complex cam variable crap, no electronics, nothing. The more recent 24v have 4 cam sensors! 4! I only got one which I can decide not to use if I want to. Cam sensors are sensitive on VW, it took a looooooong time to stabilize my one and only sensor using my stand alone ECU, imagine 4, I'd get crazy before the end. lolll Don't need at that fuss, it's a toy I'm gonna drive, not a daily driver for which I need to burn less than 5L/100km. lolll

We'll see where this brings me to!

[choobs]

Hey choobs! Where's your build at? And Corrado?

I'm on hold with the 818c 3.6VR until I have MUCH better finances in place loll. It'll probably be a few years before I can even get a kit ORDERED at this point so It'll remain a dream for now.

Corrado has been...a Corrado lol. I had to daily it for over a week not too far back since my Fiesta ST was in the shop for a new trans (stupid crappy Ford gear syncros!) and I started to finally LIVE the Corrado lifestyle. Got out of the car at lunch, locked the door from the outside with the key only to hear something break inside the door. Upon removing the key form the door...the lock cylinder came with it lol. Only place I could get a new/old stock OEM lock cylinder was from Athens, Greece! Recently I discovered some major oil burning and I think its the valve stem seals so that is getting done this weekend as well as bigger brakes, 12.3" Audi A8 front discs/TT caliper carriers, 97 Jetta VR6 front calipers, aluminum mk4 rear calipers with EBC yellow pads & stainless braided lines. Other than this, its been a fun little car! Put maybe 2k miles on it in 6 months.

Here is a recent picture with the BBS RXII wheels and OEM US headlamps back in the car. http://i.imgur.com/LLY4PSV.jpg Also make a custom 2.25" exhaust from some other VW exhaust parts I had lying around and a few magnalfow mufflers. https://youtu.be/fOU61_1hSnY?t=16

I'm sure I'll sell it off in a few years to help fund an 818c project Sorry for the threadjack!

[Hindsight]

Ugh that's my biggest beef with VW. Very poor part interchange and very poor part availability for anything older than like 8 years.

[Frank818]

Ha that pic made me see many flashbacks.... yes I have a slightly leaking coolant reservoir but the OEM VR6 tank is discontinued and have to replace with a round 4cyl model. I put some sealant around the seams and that should take care of it. lolll My reservoir is worth a lot of money since it's discontinued!

Here are some pix of my progress on new nose and clutch lines:

I didn't want and couldn't twist that freakin bar so I decided to use some scrap thick alu and made myself a bracket.

2016-06-12 12.53.06_1.jpg



Bought a new cheap steel (copper-nickel is better but pointless if I don't change ALL lines) 5ft 3/16 STANDARD (American, not European/metric) brake line to replace my twisted clutch line. And found a way to make perfect bends without the need of a special tool. By using different socket sizes you can make tighter/wider bends, but 11/16 already provides quite tight 90-degs. This is my old line, practising with it.

2016-06-28 17.24.53_1.jpg

[Frank818]

Interesting updates.

Whlie I'm crossing fingers Canada Post will not go on strike this week and not deliver my tool to bleed my clutch, I moved on the body work. Quickly. Very quickly. In less than 25h my front end (new nose) was all drilled and installed. I was surprised. Will require slight trimming and sanding of some edges but the way it is now is already very acceptable.

All my body parts but the doors are on the car at the moment. Apart from the rear bumper, they are all aligned and ready for drilling. Who would know... And the wheels fit almost perfect in the center. I thought the front one would look crap with the 10mm spacers on the LCAs but no. And the bottom rear of the fenders fit almost perfect on the side sails.

The most complex part was the nose insert. That part is a little too small overall and requires stretching and fiddling around. Had to re-do/enlarge/dig the holes many times, I need large washers to make sure it won't crack.

Body parts never move the way you want when you move a part. But after trials and errors you find a location that works. The bolts on the nose insert are a pain to drill (don't have the tool to drill from the inside) and to bolt, due to clearance. If you don't drill very close to the edge they won't fit in the fenders, no space.

At this pace the body will be on during my vacations in 2 weeks. I'm sure something will come up and slow me down. Like the rear bumper, which is too far back and doesn't fit flush on the rear of the rear fenders. I foresee a challenge there. But for the the body parts, nothing that complicated. I've seen harder! lolll

I have pix but what's the point, everyone has seen the new nose installed on other cars and I have nothing special in that area.

The car looks killa with the body on, and the rear fenders/tires combo look awesome.

Oh! I got my Captain Kurk's side scoops, they will deviate more air in which will make me use NACA ducts on the side of panel to direct the air even better. Tnx Captain.
They came with UPS. And as expected, they charged me 100 bucks (twice a reasonable amount) and broke the edge of one scoop! It's repairable so I'll spend time on that this winter.

[Hindsight]

Pics or it didn't happen!

[choobs]

Pics or it didn't happen!

+1!

[Frank818]

Right.
Some people told me I should upload pix as proof. I have no idea who they are (loll) but but they're not wrong.

2016-07-01 06.21.23_1.jpg

Bottom right, the UPS damage. There's no hole, just gel coat it's gonna be ok. The scoops are better quality than FFR's panels, especially the gel coat purity, although I admit FFR's new front fenders have increased quite a lot compared to my #181 panels.


Rear fitted but not 100% aligned yet and not drilled. I don't see any major problems so far.

2016-07-01 09.18.43_1.jpg


Front fully fitted and drilled, except for the hood. I need my hood pins, didn't order yet. Now I am ready.
The hood will sit tighter, it just sits there by gravity so the passenger's very front end is bowed a little upwards. Feather weight brings it down tight on the nose insert, so no big deal. I'll also try to raise the rear (closer to doors) of fenders as high as possible in order to raise the hood as high as possible in order to fit my single wiper with the less amount of trimming and modifications.

Apart from the fender seams and a touch on the fenders around the windshield frame, nothing has been sanded/trimmed, so the result is very acceptable already. Which is why things are going extremely fast on this compared to fitting the entire drivetrain and wiring...

2016-07-03 09.15.29_1.jpg


I think I have found a solution for the rear bumper, pulling it slightly backwards from the bottom and then tilting it downwards at the top seems to help a lot to mate with the rear fender without stretching and bowing it too much. More trials and errors will tell.


What's that thing I read that the passenger's door panel is not the same shape as the side sail? I have test fitted mine a while back and didn't notice anything major as the door sat on the sail, but maybe I wasn't really looking at it.

Happy 4th for you down south!

[Hindsight]

Looking great Frank! You'll be on the road in no time.

[Frank818]

Absolutely! Trans still won't engage into 1st but the car will be on the "road" (ground)!

[Canadian818]

Looking good Frank!

[choobs]

Looking good Frank! Those panels look like they'll align easy peasy.

[Frank818]

Well yeah, the body big panels are almost all secured. Hood, deck lids and a little of the driver side sail are left. I actually am slowed down cuz I'm out of fasteners! Who would think of that... just ordered from my local shop today, in 2-5 bus days I should get my stuff. Oh yeah the doors, those are very picky so I have not started anything yet.

Side sails are long to secure, align holes, etc. First one took a good 15h. My driver front fender fits perfectly on the side sail, passenger a little less, but after sanding it will be better, though not as perfect as the driver's. Aside from that, everything else seems to align properly! ****ing surprised, since this is #181 (ever noticed 181 is reverse of 818? loll) and my panels stayed UNTOUCHED for 2 years, I was expecting a LOT of trouble on the body.

Once you get the hang of how panel flex and bow, you understand what alignment miracles you can do. Sometimes by hand you can't achieve what you are looking for, but once you fasten them together, it's surprising how far you can go.
My rear non-Harley's bumper fits a lot snugger than what I have seen when I test fitted it. Same thing on the fenders, they all turned out better. Clearances are very interesting, just the rear fenders close to the deck lids that it's wider, apparently almost everyone has this thing.

I... I admit... I can't complain on the body so far!

I chipped badly one of my fender on the flare's edge so I was wondering, how the hell are those 3 things working? When do you use which one, how and what are they for?

2016-07-11 04.27.21_1.jpg

[Hindsight]

181 is the reverse of 1818

On the body panels.... pay real close attention to ensuring they measure equally on each side to the frame or you'll have one wheel that's in further than the other. I'm sure that's obvious but thought I would throw it out there.

On the gel coat.... I believe the "paste" is wax. I think you mix the paste and the gel coat in equal amounts, and then you add the hardener. The hardener has a specific ratio you mix it in and you can look it up online because it's mostly universal. The wax rises to the top and prevents air from contacting the gel coat. If air gets to the gel coat before it cures, it will not fully cure. You can pre-mix the wax and gel-coat into a single container if you want - just make sure it's sealed. Obviously only add the hardener right before you apply it to the car.

You must have ordered the gel coat a while back or something? When I called them a week ago they were out of stock.

[Frank818]

I checked this morning and at the top of rear fenders I have 1/16 difference, I believe it can be stretched to make it equal, if need be. At the bottom front of rear fender to frame, I have equal length.

On the gelcoat, we have nothing to glass the fiber? Like the glass you used on your balsa to harden it up, we don't have that?

I got a set of gel coat when I picked up the car 2 years ago and I got a set I never asked for when I got the new nose retrofit in March or April.

[Hindsight]

No, you dont need the fiberglass cloth for some repairs. If all you are doing is filling small holes, gouges, or superficial non-structural stuff, you can just use the gel coat. It basically takes the place of body filler.... basically. And unlike body filler, it blends in.