Frank818 -1993 VW VR6 Turbo donor- Build Thread

[Frank818]

Guys, while Dan at FFR is trying to help, I have a guessing game for you (what's the english expression?).

If you think of a front amber side marker that is either round, square or rectangle (not angled), what car would it come from?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Guys, while Dan at FFR is trying to help, I have a guessing game for you (what's the english expression?).

If you think of a front amber side marker that is either round, square or rectangle (not angled), what car would it come from?

Jeep.

jeep.jpg

These meets DOT FMVSS 108
https://www.superbrightleds.com/more...onnector/1982/

[Frank818]

Good one Bob! I'll search on these and try to get physical dimensions.

Any others are welcomed, I will never have a too short list to look into. My intention is to use an amber front side marker as a front parking/DRL light. Then I disconnect the 12v from it after inspection but still keep the light installed.


In the meantime I got answers from the DMV. The 34" for the 3rd brake light was wrong, he said there was a mistake in the doc. Good news is I can fit any SAE U3 3rd brake light as long as it's higher than the brake lights (which is not a problem cuz I can't fit one lower anyway cuz of my exhaust tip).
At the front he told me how to test the Eagle Eyes and see if they pass the SAE standard. It's what I thought, the standard is mostly for how much light is emitted out of the lamp. QC doesn't like lights that could dazzle people, I guess. If they emit too much, I could probably put a resistance inline and lower the voltage which will lower the emitted light. If they don't emit enough, now that's a problem. At 9w each compared to SAE DRLs which I see around 6w, I think I have a chance.

[BN]

818 C image.pngfront light

[Frank818]

Sounds like a good plan. I found one!!!

lamb.jpeg

Now I need a second one...

[frankc5r]

Good one Bob! I'll search on these and try to get physical dimensions.

Any others are welcomed, I will never have a too short list to look into. My intention is to use an amber front side marker as a front parking/DRL light. Then I disconnect the 12v from it after inspection but still keep the light installed.


In the meantime I got answers from the DMV. The 34" for the 3rd brake light was wrong, he said there was a mistake in the doc. Ok, so even those that come directly from the engineer have mistakes. How am I supposed to work around that. Good news is I can fit any SAE U3 3rd brake light as long as it's higher than the brake lights (which is not a problem cuz I can't fit one lower anyway cuz of my exhaust tip).
At the front he told me how to test the Eagle Eyes and see if they pass the SAE standard. It's what I thought, the standard is mostly for how much light is emitted out of the lamp. QC is a freak about lights that could dazzle people, I guess. If they emit too much, I could probably put a resistance inline and lower the voltage which will lower the emitted light. If they don't emit enough, now that's a problem. At 9w each compared to SAE DRLs which I see around 6w, I think I have a chance.

The Eagle eyes are no where near the advertised 9 watts.. To give the sellers some credit they may mean as bright as a regular, non led, bulb. Thr EE draw about 1/4 watt each from my test at 13.8 volts

[Frank818]

That's ok 9iw (9 incandescent watts), all 4 makes it up to 36iw, I compare with one bulb at 5iw. I think I have good chances to be over powered, which will make things so easy to throttle back and spot on with regulation.

The Other Frank and Art, I plan on measuring the light intensity using lux instead of cd/m2 (those latter instruments cost few 1000s). I know I will measure illuminance instead of luminance, but the relation is quite direct and proportional. There is also a conversion formula possible. My methodology will be to use a lux meter and measure, in a dark room, a known SAE compliant parking light and then TS. I will measure at the distances and angles required by the SAE rules. I will do that 3 times to get 3 readings and average out. Then I will do the same with my Eagle Eyes and compare the results. If say I get 50k lux with the EE and 40k with the SAE compliant lamp, I will know the EE are 25% more powerful. I will then use the proper resistance to throttle down the emitted light of the EE, equaling the SAE lamp. All readings/tests will be done 3 times and averaged out.

Do you think that is a valid methodology?

Now I need to find the precise requirements for SAE, I remember seeing a table with cd/m2 at certain angles and distances but DAMN I searched on my different browsers' history and I can't find it again. On the SAE website it's so complex to find something I failed again there. The FMVSS 108 rules does not mention these details so I can't use that.
Any chance you guys know where to find DOT/SAE rules' specs?



I also got my 450lbs springs and installed one. A little larger so it's very close on the camber link, but boy what a difference for height adjustment!! Barely some pre-load and I reach 4-5/8" ride height, I have great expectations for these springs.

[Frank818]

2017-02-18 07.47.47_1.jpg

I need to do some suspension adjustment, I have 2mm clearance between the coil and camber link. I need 5mm+ as per regulations (yeah some more!). Not sure if I can push back the wheel without disrupting too much the alignment, I will need to realign but I don't know if it will realign within specs.



Do you guys know if the front of the car can reach and keep 5.75" ride height for a 15mins drive, twice?

[Canadian818]

I'd suggest different spacers, moving the arm forward and not adjusting your alignment at all. If it's just for the inspection, perhaps just put both spacers on one side. As for ride height, it shouldn't be a problem, however ideal camber/caster could be difficult to get, but not an issue for your temp situation.

[Frank818]

Dan, Rubicon's side markers are a good idea, but they're too big. I can't figure out how to fit them up front, something like 2.5" if not 3". I'm trying to deal the DMV and accept some SAE P2 lights instead of SAE P. That would give me the opportunity to use 3/4"-1" round lights. Hopefully I win, that'd take care of the parking lights. Turn signals are still unknown yet.

BTW FFR's front yellow side markers are SAE A/P2, our regulation requires SAE A/P, again I'll try to have the DMV accept SAE A/P2 so I can have a wider access to those lights. Truck and trailer lights are big, so they're hard to fit on the 818.

Adam yeah I moved the spacers on one end and only on the spring side too, I'm just concerned that the rod end will squeeze on the IFS bracket on up movement, the rod end twists just a little cuz it hits on the bracket without the spacer on one end. The brackets are not fully 90-deg upwards. I have to remove the shock and test it.

[Frank818]

Oh crap, everyone in my work group (about 70+ people) are now aware I'm building an 818. They all want pix, vids and rides (ok but only for girls). There won't be another year before I fix the DMV, I have to roll this summer, it is now an obligation or else I'll get fired for not doing my job.

[flynntuna]

Does this mean you will have to spend more time working than posting on the forum?

[Frank818]

I already do. The forum is a mean for me to search for parts, tricks, ideas. It's essential. I cannot finish the car without the forum.

[choobs]

Yo Frank! Haven't stopped in for a while, the car is coming together really nice! Love that flip forward hood hinge setup

I may have missed the lighting setup for your DRLs/TurnSignal/DRLs switching. What did you use here? Something microprocessor based? double pole relays?

[Frank818]

The hood hinges are made by Craig Mechie3 (ZeroDecibelMotorsports). They did not clear the nose insert, was slightly rubbing when opening so I had to trim a lot the front of the hood. Maybe the location of my brackets weren't optimal, I don't know. Now it's fine. Very very close but doesn't rub. If it does, I won't pass inspection, so I gotta do it right!

The front lights will change, they are not SAE/DOT/ECE or JISK approved. I was able to get the white lights approved with some photometric analysis (yeah I had to learn that!) but the TS are 5 to 10 times less bright than they should. I'm pretty sure they can't be seen much under sunlight and they can't be seen at 80-deg outwards cuz the headlight buckets are very badly designed for that. I need to find some "SAE I" approved TS that will fit this non-SAE designed front end. I might have found an opening after 80h searching.

Otherwise they were just Eagle Eyes round lights that can be found anywhere (amazon, ebay, aliexpress and whatnots). The switchback was taken from a tube light that came with it and fortunately I can solder 3 Eagle Eyes into one switchback driver. So no, no microprocessor, but some resistors, MOSFET and stuff like that. Chinese made I didn't make them. However FRANKC5R has built some drivers for his Eagle Eyes.

No relays.

[Frank818]

Tow hooks are not allowed if in an unsafe location.
Any weld that can affect force distributions on the frame may well require welding seam certification.


EDIT: Because FFR is not heat treating its frame, so that it's probably around 36,000psi for the metal they use, it's not required to certify the welds, except if it's something important like seat belts (and probably engine mounts). But for seats it's not required, the seat belt protects you one way and the rear FW protects you the other way, doesn't matter if the welds breaks in this case.

BUT, if the welds don't look good, like it was the case for me (I didn't weld it), they will ask to re-do the welds.

When high strength metal is used, like 120,000psi, welding may affect the treatment and must well be certified to be free of porosity.

[Mechie3]

They're still building in my neighborhood.

[Frank818]

They're still building in my neighborhood.

I just need a place to work, then. What website is good to list jobs in IN?

[Mechie3]

I don't even know what you do. Monster.com? Linkedin? I haven't looked for a job since I moved here in 2009. There is a mechanical engineer position open where I work.

[Frank818]

loll, I can do a bunch of stuff man, even photometric tests! lolll I'll take a look on Monster, we never know. However IN seems cold, I won't gain much from QC, my best guess is to be south IN, but hey maybe it's worth it. Would certainly costs a lot but if I can find something well paid for what I can do, why not? I don't think my job is much common on the States, I'll look.

[Frank818]

Well how interesting Craig, on Monster (I didn't know it still exists, been 13 years without searching for a job) I found many open positions for exactly what I do now. Mainly in Indianapolis of course. However I don't think I'm authorized to work in US at the moment and I have no idea what to do to be accepted by Trump.

Sorry I can't buy your new awesome front fender louvers, I already glassed my McMaster fasteners and have so much more work. Right, if I move I could buy your louvers!

[aquillen]

About the switchbacks. If you like, pm me, I'll send you a couple of the ones I've cooked up. I've given a few away, not many and as long as it's just a pair now and then I'll keep that up. Also sent out to a couple guys a "parts kit" if they want to do the soldering. Just a pay-it-forward deal. Given your headaches, this could remove one from your list.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...er-controllers

My jaw drops another notch every time you mention another regulation - one wonders who is designing cars up your way - manufacturers or the gov ? Here we mostly fret over how to do something, you are dealing with roadblocks at every corner - kudos to you for sticking it out.

I recall visiting a friend who moved from Indiana to Nova Scotia a few years back, describing they couldn't even replace a duplex outlet in their home - had to have licensed electrical contractor do it. Good lord people. I know how things come to that and why, but in many ways it is a sad predicament.

[Frank818]

I've edited post #1336, DMV changed mind a little bit.

We do have that same electrical stuff for homes, only certified electricians at CAD$100-150 an hour can do electrical stuff in houses.

[Frank818]

These welds, on the passenger's side, were rejected by the DMV. (along with the brackets!! read below)
Which means the ones on the driver's side are as well.

2017-03-10 06.37.03_1.jpg

My mech did them, but I remember passing over them too, maybe I shouldn't have.

However, I have started the process to get all my frame welds certified. I am waiting for the welder to call me back and schedule a time. I want to know which welds are good and which ones are problematic. If those of the engine are, then hopefully the welder can redo them without removing the engine. Yes, it can still go very far in all the hassles I've been through so far.


For QC guys, if you weld, make sure your welds are AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE to those of FFR's. Otherwise they might be rejected or asked for certification.


Also on the above pic, both sides' seat brackets got rejected cuz the bolts act as a pivot. I will weld (!!) a flat bar on the LF to LR brackets and RF to RR brackets, that way they won't move. But my welds need to be perfect. Or someone will do them for me. Just more time spent.

So the DMV asked me to redo the welds on the flat bars (32 welds).


Important for QC guys, I sent the DMV pix of the seat belts installation. If they aren't satisfied with that, I'm out of ideas, cuz these don't have 50 places to be bolted to and apparently you cannot bolt them on a bracket. Which means the higher your seat is, the harder to buckle up it will be, cuz the button side belt section (the section with red button to un-buckle) is about 10" long and it's not a cable, it's a belt, so you need a way to keep it up at reach.
Compare your solution to mine and read later if I got approved or rejected, that way you'll know the limitations.

2017-03-11 06.14.48_1.jpg2017-03-11 06.16.05_1.jpg2017-03-11 06.17.58_1.jpg2017-03-11 06.19.50_1.jpg2017-03-11 06.24.49_1.jpg2017-03-11 06.25.11_1.jpg


Speaking of limitations, this VR6 turbo build in QC makes me test a lot of DMV rules, so that might help you knowing when to stop on your own build.


Oh BTW, the engine START and STOP functions need to be accessible all the time. Don't use those functions on a tablet/screen, unless the screen remains in the car and starts up when you give juice to the car.

[Frank818]

I'm sure the DMV will reject my wiper install. Not solid enough. Working on it.
They will also reject the washer fluid, too clumsy. Since it's very difficult to aim right, I bought this:

http://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/e11400...&sojTags=bu=bu


I will also not install my awic water tank, too close to wiper motor arm and it blocks access to the battery. I will bypass using just a hose.

[Canadian818]

Damn Frank, one headache after another! Keep your head up, eventually they will be sick of you and just pass you, hopefully anyway. Your starting to make me worried, I really want to get my car registered ASAP before any laws change. Fortunately there's a few registered in Alberta and they didn't have much trouble, but you never know.

[Frank818]

Your starting to make me worried

You should not.
No one outside QC should fear inspection.

[Frank818]

I solidified my wiper motor, to prevent the DMV from rejecting my previous installation.

However, how on Earth am I going to remove the motor, now?

2017-03-12 09.00.48_1.jpg

I'm loosing concentration... oh well, I'll leave this AS IS and see what they say. I'll cut the flat bar and weld another one with bolts. If I don't pass inspection just cuz of that, I won't get sick.


I also redid my exhaust. Everything after the muffler. As some remember, the elbow right after the muffler is touching the rear bumper. DMV won't accept that, so I've been pro-active again and redid the exhaust. I'm half way through it but I gained about 1". That's still pretty close to the bumper, I will certainly install some heat shield plate over the muffler and pipe, bolted to the rear bumper's top lip to hide that corner. I could gain almost 1" more, but I'd need a new muffler and start all over, the hard thick 5/16 stainless rod welded to the muffler to support it is pretty welded onto it, would take ages to remove. Better off buying a new muffler. If the DMV doesn't like that, I have to buy a new muffler at 75 bucks and a new 90-deg elbow at 60 bucks (and overall 50 bucks of shipping). So I'm not doing it now, also cuz of the delays to get the parts. But I have a solution to do better.

It's actually a good thing I redid it, cuz when I welded the pipe, the muffler wasn't fully bolted on on the frame and DP. Now that it is, it has moved to the right side, so it's totally out of wack in my center tip top grill, it's touching the edge pretty bad. I also noticed it had quite some stress. So I followed different steps to bolt it on and align it. Now it has no stress and some play to move. I just need to weld the outlet, make the exit pipe longer and weld a 1-1.5" longer pipe on the tip as well. Some more hand saw coming on...


Yeah, I cut the stainless pipe by hand with a hand saw.

2017-03-12 13.44.38_1.jpg

[Frank818]

I can understand no one has a solution for my wiper motor stuck in there, as there are none. loll

This might interest everyone: the DMV accepted my seat belts installation. Finally something I get right.
However, he said FFR is at the limit of the required strength in case of impact. He showed a couple of math formulas and results. For those the belts are important, it means if you do your installation with less strength level you may run into an issue in case of a wreck. You've got to anchor the belt's points directly onto the frame, no bracket, not anchored on the seat. Unless you're sure the brackets support as much or more as the frame. I'm not flaming FFR at all, this is a 10k kit, not a 1 million supercar. All I want is my plate, I have no time to flame anyone about anything, nothing is anyone's fault but mine. One mistake and I can't drive on the streets. I am the only one who can can do the installation on the car and make it pass.

I thank everyone who helped me so far. Now I need to install those parts and solutions in order to make them perfect. And if I do it right, I should pass.

Stuff to install following DMV's rules:
- Front SAE/DOT turn signals
- Rear SAE/DOT 3rd brake light
- Driver's seat back-fort adjustable mounts
- Physical CRANK and SHUTDOWN function (mine is wifi at the moment)
- Hey that's it!

2017-03-15 04.52.38_1.jpg2017-03-15 04.53.28_!.jpg



The few last things the DMV might not like are:

- Front splitter sticking out 3". I will pull the splitter back
- The fact I'd need a physical button for ACC and IGN, and not just CRANK and SHUTDOWN like he said
- My coolant hose being too close to the muffler/DP at a very specific point
- My muffler being too close to the rear axle.
- A few other things.
Now all the above are fixed (Aug 2017).

No my exhaust touching on the rear bumper should not be an issue, it'll be far enough now. I just can't get the pipe perfectly aligned to spot weld it, it's very hard with 2 hands, gotta think of a mount to keep it aligned in one place (muffler outlet) while I align the other end (tip exit).

[Frank818]

Arf, where am I...

15h to fix my exhaust touching the bumper. Much more clearance now but I think I should have cut the pipe a little longer, it's about 1/16" outside the rear grill. On the other hand it looks pretty good being flush like that. I also smoothed out the inside of the muffler outlet pipe (the section welded on the muffler's outlet) so that the exhaust flow would not hit on the pipe's edge and rather more on an upwards slope. I did a pretty nice weld there!!! For about 1"... lolll

2017-03-19 06.58.54-2_1.jpg2017-03-19 07.36.32_1.jpg2017-03-20 08.07.54_1.jpg2017-03-20 08.08.14_1.jpg2017-03-20 08.08.25_1.jpg2017-03-20 08.08.34_1.jpg



Yes, I did it again. And again a 3rd time to cut the 1" long extension to my tip. Sick of cutting by hand with a saw, I'm through with that.

2017-03-19 09.36.05_1.jpg



Received few parts to comply with DMV. Will take me many weeks to fit them, now.
There are 100s of rules to comply to. And I won't be the first one registering, someone from this forum who posted what some said to be the very first 818 QUARTER MILE is registering at the same time as I do. However his car is running, no tune required, no need to fix broken parts after the 1st track run. And he's got a Subaru build, with, on top of that, the old nose with SAE legal Camry headlights, which makes it a lot easier. Saves certainly 75h due to the old nose.


Hey, I can't be the first for everything...

[DodgyTim]

Frank, if it makes you feel any better, I had to torsion test the entire chassis to get mine registered. To get it done commercially is about $3k. I managed to fabricate a test rig from some steel I had in the shed, and 12 dial gauges. Cost about $500, but delayed me months......

[Frank818]

Tnx Tim, yes it does make feel better! Torsion test the chassis is something my DMV does not require as they approve what FFR does.

Any chassis test, crash test, pollution test and airbags are not required. Chassis analysis is required if my DMV does not know the quality background of the chassis build. Like an unknown kit-car company or making your own chassis, require CAD analysis. Fortunately FFR is well known at the DMV.
But everything else an OEM cars needs to have, I have to as well.

Not sure I'd trade my rules for your torsion test rule, which is why it does make feel better!

However I'd trade my Country for yours, weather is better in yours. Ok many fires usually but hey, nothing's perfect!

[DodgyTim]

Over the last few days we've had a cyclone causing massive flooding
Normally you have to watch out for snakes and crocks displaced by the floodwaters
This photo didnt make too much of a stir locally, but went a bit viral in the UK
image.jpg

[Frank818]

Nice shark! In the mud.

[Frank818]

2 updates. 2 bad updates.

First one, wheel spacers are not allowed! I have 10 or 15mm up front in order to clear the frame on full lock and also cuz the tire looks better inside the fender.
Need to get those off, find some C clips spacers, open up the steering rack and fit those in place.

[Frank818]

2nd problem.

The certified welder came by yesterday to certify my welds. Out of the 300-400 non-FFR joints/seams, 4-5 passed. Which means ALL of my welds (mines and my mech's) must be ground off and redone! He will even CUT the engine mounts tubes that my mech added and re-fab new ones! He said there are a lot of bad designs and very bad welds. Pin holes, holes, incomplete welds not fully closed, too cold welds, etc...
Including the CAD$1000 certification document, that's a CAD$5000+ job! Half of Jeff's super awesome Ohlins super custom suspension.

However I need to do that. Aside from the DMV, he said after a certain time the welds would have cracked due to vibrations. He would have not been surprised that the engine would have dropped off while running at some point. Couple of years, 10 years, 1 year, who knows, but he said there's no way these welds would have been safe. He's certified cars and modified cars a lot.

He also found an FFR weld on the cockpit main tubes that has a pin hole! He said that weld won't pass, especially in that area! He will check ALL of the car's weld and redo those that aren't good.

We have to jack the engine and gearbox, but don't need to remove it, phew!! I do have to remove a lot of little things around it, though. And I have to tow the car at his garage for the engine mounts and gearbox mounts. For the other welds, he will do in my garage.

Only good part here is that he said my SS welds on the exhaust are quite good for someone who started welding on SS! He will redo them all with TIG but he said I wasn't that bad. He doesn't think on the long run there would be no leaks, but for a first timer it's not too bad, considering it's SS.


In the end, yeah, I'm pissed off again of those 2 more issues on my list, but hey I chose a VR6 turbo in QC so I gotta live with it now.

[Canadian818]

Wow Frank, that's a costly redo! Too bad I'm on the other side of the country, I would've definitely helped you out with the welding. There's quite a few FFR welds I'm not happy with, and lots of spatter that they didn't clean off. Best to safe, get it done right.

[Frank818]

Best to safe, get it done right.

Yes, it's 25% for DMV and 75% for me.

[DodgyTim]

Ouch Frank, I feel your pain

[RM1SepEx]

Congrats Frank, you are making my issues seem very insignificant