Frank818 -1993 VW VR6 Turbo donor- Build Thread

[RM1SepEx]

Frank, your numbers are incorrect lincoln data says 3/16 capability

Capable Performance
– Forgiving arc makes dialing in your
application easy.
– Smooth arc starts with minimal
spatter.
– Wide 30-140 amp welding
output range.
– MIG weld 24 gauge up to 3/16 in.
(4.8 mm) sheet metal in a single
pass. Weld up to 5/16 in. (7.9 mm)
steel using self-shielded Lincoln
Electric Innershield® (FCAW-S) wires.

[Frank818]

Well Dan actually you tell me, but I read 5/16 with their electric shielded wire.

Either way 5/16 is too much, then is 1/8 enough or should I really aim for 3/16 even though the tubes are 0.035"?

[metalmaker12]

Ok so reading this a 65amp or 80amp welder will not be sufficient? They can weld 1/8 or 20ga but you mention the FFR frame metal is 3/16?

EDIT: The 80amp welder at 50% rebate has 0.035" tubing for the biggest. Looks like that ain't gonna work?
Actually, even the one at 140amp doesn't have a tubing bigger than 0.035". So I guess these are crap? The 140amp is a Lincoln MIG-PAK 140. I thought Lincoln was a good one.

I think your referring to wire size bro. A miller or Lincoln 115 can weld up to 1/8 with 0.24-0.30 with mixed gas, or up to 3/16 with flux core 0.30. I personally would look at used a miller or Lincoln 180-220 for welding 3/16 wall stuff to get the penitration required for a strong weld. Here's my miller mig short arc 115 specsimage.jpg. I have a miller 180 mig short arc and a Lincoln power wave 300 mig pulse, and I use my buddies Lincoln 375 tig. I can ask around to see if anyone's selling a good welder for what you need, but shipping would be $$. Get a good welder, cheap ones don't work well for long and the good ones hold there valve. Miller Lincoln and Hobart are all very good from my experiences. You will need at least a 180 if you want to use a gas mix to weld the 3/16 wall stuff. You could use flex core but it welds like crap. Pm me if you have any questions, I weld 24/7 so I know what's up.

[mikeb75]

Frank; everyone on the internet likes uninformed opinions -so here is mine!!

I've now used 2 welders: a $100 Harbor Freight flux0cre welder (http://www.harborfreight.com/90-amp-...der-61849.html) and a Lincoln 140 Weld Pak HD (not $100!! http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lincoln-E...-100670934-_-x). In both cases I was welding steel tubes with the same thickness as the 818 frame.

The Harbor Freight weighs very little; compared to the Lincoln that weighs probably 70 LBS; a lot heavier transformer in that unit.

The Harbor Freight unit got the job done, but I had to travel pretty slowly to make sure I got decent penetration. That isn't a bad thing for my first time welding; gave me a chance to work on my hand-work and technique.

The Lincoln blazed through the tube; moving at around the same travel speed as the HF (since that was my only experience) the welder dug pretty deep into the tubing.

I also welded some 1/8 plate with the Lincoln. Had to back the power down a step since it (I) was lighting up the plate metal rather quickly. Didn't get burn through; but the plate went cherry really fast.

Having read quite a few internet opinions; the HF welder actually does a good job -especially for the price. Yes; it's a flux core welder so there is the issue with slag and clean-up; but I felt like it did a pretty decent job putting my tubes into the frame. If you only plan to weld a very few things I think you could get away with an el-cheap-o welder like that just fine.

That said, I covet the Lincoln I played with. It seemed like a serious instrument; and MIG is pretty neat. Since I'd like to get good at welding I'm seriously considering picking up something like that myself. YMMV.

[Frank818]

Tnx metal and Mike.

Yes metal, we know you weld 24/7, you learned how to in your dreams. lolll yes I will PM ya, I know so more than nothing about that that I want to make sure I get something sufficient, but not overkill, as to answer Mike, I only plan on welding for the 818, just a few things. BUT, I will want to weld stainless steel (intake and exhaust piping), which the HF at $100 doesn't do. And I don't think I can use a 220v plug as there are none available in the condo I live in, so I'm looking at 120v. But I'll PM ya metal.

[RM1SepEx]

The Lincoln 140 will do 3/16 with std wire and a cover gas 5/16 with their flux covered wire
\
Capable Performance
– Forgiving arc makes dialing in your
application easy.
– Smooth arc starts with minimal
spatter.
– Wide 30-140 amp welding
output range.
– MIG weld 24 gauge up to 3/16 in.
(4.8 mm) sheet metal in a single
pass. Weld up to 5/16 in. (7.9 mm)
steel using self-shielded Lincoln
Electric Innershield® (FCAW-S) wires.

My 140 amp mig does 3/16 just fine and uses a std 20 amp 120v outlet (std outlet is 15 amps max)

Eastwood's mig should work fine, I'm sure the lincoln is a good unit.

http://www.eastwood.com/welders/mig-welders.html

If I were looking for one I would consider this:

http://www.eastwood.com/mig-welders-...spool-gun.html

[flynntuna]

Since we're talking welders, has anyone know anything about this new type of welder, the Multiplaz welder?

http://www.multiplaz.com/about

[Frank818]

Wow,

This feature allows you to melt even thick 12 inch (300 mm) metal to the depth of up to 7/16 inch (10 mm),

and it can weld up to 2". $2k. I'll pass.

I guess I'll go with the Lincoln 140, since it's at a rebate at my local store. 220v is not really a way to go for me for the few things I plan on welding, as my garage is a few garages away from the electrical room, which means I'd have to convince a few other owners in the condo block to let the electrician pass the 220v through their garages and into mine. Would cost less to buy that Multiplaz. I'm curious to see what others think of this one?

[Mechie3]

I bought the Eastwood Tig 200. First one worked well then starting having an issue where it would shut off. Eastwood shipped me a new one and paid to return the old one no questions asked. No issues with the second one. For $800 it seems to work quite well. Have welded some steel and some aluminum. I'm a welding noob though.

[D Clary]

I have 2 welders, an airco 200a mig and tig, and a small Lincoln 110. The Lincoln works vey well for maybe 3/16 and thinner. The weld on your set mount will not hold, you could break them off with a hammer. I would suggest finding a qualified welter to do the job. Your seat mounts are no place to learn.

[K3LAG]

I have the new Lincoln Power MIG 210 MP on order. I should have it in the next week or two. If it's all it looks like, it is quite the nice option for home/hobby use. $999 does Stick, MIG, and TIG. Runs on 120 or 230. TIG torch is extra. Only potential downside is that it's DC only so no aluminum TIG.

Larry

[Frank818]

Tnx a lot guys for the info. One of the most beautiful thing of this forum is how people share their experiences.

Turns out routing 220v in my garage (condo block) could have been achieved with a load miser on the hot water tank. But I didn't feel I needed to pay the extra for a 220v welder, especially that I am just starting.

So I bought a Lincoln MIG-Pack 140 which can, as they say, weld 1/4 on multi-pass. I've actually seen a pro welder on Da Toob doing it. I don't think I'll need more than 3/16 for tough things likes seat brackets and engine mounts, but I think my seat brackets are 1/4, gotta check. Waiting on my adjustable mask, on shipping.

I saved 200 bucks, on sale, and the shop will only charge my CC in EIGHTEEN MONTHS, without interests, no catch. My jobs will be done and I won't even have paid the welder, how nice.

Why does it seem people say Flux core welding is crap?
That guy welding 1/4 steel on both sides did it with flux core and used a press to break the weld or bend the steel, in case of the welding on both sides. So why would flux core not be good for seat brackets and engine mounts?

[RM1SepEx]

Cover gas gives much nicer, stronger welds, the flux covered wire doesn't work as well and you can get voids and inclusions of contaminants in the welds, that makes them weaker. Your 140 amp max welder will give you capability for all but the heaviest materials that you will find at home. Mine Cebora 140 (Daytona Mig) is almost 30 years old and has seen many spools of wire and tanks of gas. Our old Lincoln 225 is over 40 years old! It's a great capability to have.

You will find that most of the FFR tubing is between .065 and .125 thick, I use my #3 power setting for that thickness range and vary wire feed rates, slower movement with more wire at the higher thicknesses. I find that more than a 20-25% duty cycle makes it unhappy. For 1/4 inch and above I have to use all 140 amps. I'm sure that you can find some online ref materials and videos to assist your learning curve. Get some junk metal and play with the orientation of the parts etc and you will be welding well in an afternoon.

[Jaime]

I don't think anyone said flux wouldn't work, just that you can do more with gas. You can do multiple passes without a ton of cleaning and you can do aluminum with MIG. The complaints were about your penetration.

Here's the weld in question:
x.jpg

Here's my best flux core weld:


Notice how yours looks like the weld bead is sitting on the metal, instead of sunk into it.

[Frank818]

Yeah the Lincoln AC-225 which looks like a radio from the 40s or 50s. loll There was one for sale at the shop.

So I guess the flux core could be used for things that don't require a lot of strength, like ECU brackets, water cooler core brackets and little stuff like that. Seats and engine/tranny mounts are probably the most important welds.

There is a chart inside the door of the welder that tells you the speed and power to use for many types/thicknesses of metal, along with which gas or not to use. Should I trust and follow that chart or in the case of the 818 it's a little different? I can post a pic of it.

I heard that when welding you have to make small circles with the gun (tip of wire), instead of doing a straight line with your hand, and keep it about 1/2" over the metal you weld, is that true?

Jaime, what is that bracket used for?

[Jaime]

Seat belt anchor. I have no doubt I can lift the car with that weld.

[Frank818]

Oh good, you used flux core for the seat brackets. I need to practice and then see if I can make good penetration (in welding vocab loll) out of them, if not I scrap the weld and use with gas. I bet I will need to, as they are 1/4, which seem thicker than your brackets.

[Jaime]

[QUOTE=Frank818;174782]I heard that when welding you have to make small circles with the gun (tip of wire), instead of doing a straight line with your hand, and keep it about 1/2" over the metal you weld, is that true?[QUOTE]

For a beginner, you always need to go slower than you think you do and you always need to be steadier than you are. Rather than circles, the guy that showed me said to make "C" shapes back and forth. Also, with flux, make sure to angle the gun toward the weld you just laid down. For MIG, angle the gun toward the un-welded metal.

[Jaime]

BTW, I made a lot of bad welds too. It's important to recognize when they're bad and grind them off and start over. I also have a Harbor Freight welder, and every once in a while it decides to feed less than smoothly. That totally screws up the weld.

[D Clary]

I found that the small welders come with a small spool of wire. That wire is so coiled up it doesn't feed well. I bought a large dia spool and it feeds much better. The 110 welders can be tricky if the feed draws to much and causes the temp to fluctuate.

[metalmaker12]

When you first start stay in a spot for a second to build a puddle and than use a "j" weave ,back step or "c" technique with short arc mig. The large spools do feed better than the smaller ones, and lead to a more consistant outcome. Always practice on scrap material to get it running nice. Welding is about rytheme and being fluid and steedy in your movements. I will post some videos if I get time. In the meantime heres a great site to help you guys out:

http://www.weldingtipsandtricks.com

[thall818]

Don't use flux core unless you just can't do gas. It's worth the time/money to set up with argon. Flux core is hateful. Just my opinion, I understand not all budgets allow for the extras.

[flynntuna]

Metal, that's how I was taught, geez like some 30+ years ago when I worked in a local shipyard while going to college. They used stick welders exclusively in those days, though when I left they were training some with mig. I never had a compelling reason to buy a welder till now. Lol.

[metalmaker12]

Flux core is garbage!!

[flynntuna]

Isn't flux core used outdoors in windy situations were The shielding gas can't be protected ?
By the way frank, how's the build going?

[MrDude_1]

Isn't flux core used outdoors in windy situations were The shielding gas can't be protected ?
By the way frank, how's the build going?

its not that flux core is any better outdoors it's just that when you're using gas you have to turn up very high in windy conditions. Not to mention when traveling it's easier not to deal with gas bottles. In any case no matter how your welding the idea is to not have oxygen in the weld. The weld needs to be shielded, and hot. That seat weld above has no penatration. It needs to be ground down and rewelded to be safe. A 60 grit flap wheel on an angle grinder is easy and neat if you need ideas. $15 total at harbor freight.

[Frank818]

flynn, there's no hijack on my thread, no matter what happens on my thread it's always useful for me. Plus now that I start welding (as soon as I get my mask), it's right on the discussion. I need to see how others are welding, which will give me guidelines and many tricks before the final product.

[QUOTE=flynntuna;174813By the way frank, how's the build going?[/QUOTE]

Glad you asked, it's getting delayed by the poor welds my mech did and that I'll have to grind them down and restart. loll Seriously, KEP is supposed to ship me my adapter plate and other parts this week, so that we can bolt the gearbox onto the engine and test fit it in. Aside from that, since the car is at the shop I can only work 5h a week and we were working on the seats lately. My mech promised me to work on the car during the week, since last April, but he spent 0min on it so far when I am not at the shop. So the build progresses at only 5h a week out of 20-25h I could personally work, which means slow updates. I will tow the car back home in December and ditch my mech. I need full control over managing the building steps, otherwise he constantly pushes back my own tasks and it's stupid the way it is now. I have many small things done but almost nothing fully done, cuz I was waiting on him to finish what he has to do and he does nothing. Can't work like that, too much dependency on someone who has no interest (other than workload) on my build. And you know, building these things requires good vision of the build, steps, and space, you gotta think if every thing will fit before you actually fitted all the parts, cuz it's not like legos. Then you grind, adjust, go back one step cuz you forgot some cables would pass here, etc. Every things depend on other things. If I have to rely on my mech to do a lot of things all around the car, I can't finish anything and can't move on to other things that require this and that thing to be competed. I'll leave him install the engine and then I bring her back home.

Fuel tank installation, center console (newer model, in alu) and seat belts are my next 3 things after the engine is in.


BTW, do you guys think that Lincoln 140 can weld alu? The gas tank guy at the welding shop told me it can't cuz it's not powerful enough. I thought alu required less powerful welders, but maybe I understood wrong.

[Frank818]

metal, "j" like this: jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjj follow the line of the "j"s? Right, up, down, right, up, down, right, etc..

[K3LAG]

With the addition of a SG-100 spool gun the MIG-Pak 140 is rated to weld aluminum up to 10 gauge. That will be pushing it for that machine though. The spool gun is about $200. You will also need a cylinder of Argon gas.

Larry

[thall818]

It's kind of like a sewing machine. You are stitching the metal. I know guys that push the puddle and guys that pull the puddle. The back and forth motion heats each piece of metal that you are joining. Only heat one side and the weld won't hold.

[Jaime]

I thought alu required less powerful welders, but maybe I understood wrong.

Aluminum melts at a lower temperature, but it carries heat away quickly. You need to feed in heat really quickly to get the weld area to stay hot. So, aluminum needs a much higher current welder than steel does. Also, aluminum wire is hard to feed, so you really want to use TIG(or a spool gun) on aluminum.

That's why I settled for a flux welder. For me, it was either cheap and barely good enough or get a TIG so I can do everything. The only thing I could do with MIG (that I care about) that I can't do with flux is stainless.

[MrDude_1]

BTW, do you guys think that Lincoln 140 can weld alu? The gas tank guy at the welding shop told me it can't cuz it's not powerful enough. I thought alu required less powerful welders, but maybe I understood wrong.

I have the a larger Lincoln MIG but we use the same spool gun. It works ok, and while you'll be near all the way up, it can do it... HOWEVER there are some things to keep in mind. First you need the spool gun, wire and argon. They're not cheap.. the spool gun itself is large, and will not fit in tight areas. Its fine when you can position everything on the bench though. Overall, I would recommend a cheapie TIG setup over someone buying a new MIG spool gun... however it will work for most things we do.. you can weld up brackets and such. You will not be able to weld thick castings though... you just wont have enough power. The heat gets sucked away from the weld too fast.. So if you plan to weld some small stuff, and are willing to buy everything.. sure. If you need to plug or weld to castings, then you need more welder... so you might as well get a TIG.

[Frank818]

You are all right. I checked the chart inside the welder's door and there is alu, 10ga, with spoolgun, 100 argon, max voltage and 75% wire feed, by pushing the gun.
If I really need to do alu, I'll check on my options. But SS that I need to, I have an exhaust and intake piping to build. Needs gas, otherwise it may oxyde the metal, I heard.

[Frank818]

This is the MIG my mech used to poo on my seat brackets.

2014-11-01 08.58.56.jpg

220v, 150amps, wire feed 70% and 75% power. Not sure what he does wrong, but my guess is he doesn't move his hands when he welds. He just tacks/spot welds but long enough at the same spot to penetrate and then after that it makes a poo. Anyway that's his problem as mine will be to spend hours grinding that off and re-doing them. I don't know what I'll do for the engine mounts, he will weld on the frame, that's gonna be touchy to grind and re-do with the engine in place (I don't have what it takes to remove the engine at home).


G50 internals with the huge thick gear and comparison of both diffs before the bearings were transplanted to the LSD.
Everything is so huge and thick in that gearbox there's no way I can blow it off. Not surprising why a short 5-sp like this one weighs 156lbs.

2014-11-01 09.02.58.jpg2014-11-01 09.06.19.jpg2014-11-01 09.06.26.jpg


The following will be of no interest to anyone not thinking about fitting a VR6.
So on the market there is exist serpentine belts with all accessories, some without the A/C, some without the power steering (PS) and some without both.
This one is the only one fitting on the VR6 that has no A/C and no PS. It's a Mitsubishi belt, NAPA #6PK1105. 6 ribs instead of 7 and slick on one side instead of ribs on both sides.

2014-11-01 10.25.39.jpg2014-11-01 10.25.50.jpg2014-11-01 10.26.00.jpg

[C.Plavan]

This is why I let my buddy weld the rear wing mount. He is so much better than me.

[Frank818]

Ha you changed the pic, you pasted yourself from the other thread and now it's your wing mount.

Yeah I saw your welds many times on your thread and I am jealous. lolll I'll have to learn this winter.

[Frank818]

Got my KEP parts. Bolts, release bearing, 550hp street clutch and pressure plate (PP not pictured), flywheel (quite heavier than my current 12lbs flywheel), starter ring gear and of course, the most important part, the adapter plate in REVERSE configuration to fit a G50 to a VR6. So far all parts fit nicely, we just need to try the adapter plate on the VR6 and see. KEP did a magnificent job on the parts. They are known for that.

I believe this Saturday I should know if the drivetrain fits as expected, better or worse. It's quite a challenge fitting an engine not meant for the car, using a gearbox not meant for the engine and all that lego'ed together with an adapter plate cuz it's not bolt on. Hybrid everywhere.

I managed to minimize costs so far, no sunken ones, but still I am on expensive grounds no cover-up here.

2014-11-04 16.58.43.jpg2014-11-04 16.58.56.jpg2014-11-04 16.59.08.jpg

[Frank818]

A week has passed. As expected, my mechanic started to work on the transaxle at the LAST minute (could have started 7 weeks ago but no, my build is not important), so he just found out he's missing a bolt and the clutch release fork. Which I'll have to pay a lot to get the first one I find at no matter the cost and get it in 2 days. I hate that guy.

This is how the VR6 looks like when the complete transmission is removed. I cleaned up before installation after taking the pic.

2014-11-08 08.42.14.jpg

This is how it looks like with the piece of art adapter from KEP and street flywheel. Notice how close it's been cut on the top right corner. Everything fits perfectly, all the parts. This is a first for me in 20 years when I buy a kit of more than 1 full custom parts. Usually there is always something that doesn't fit well, or a wrong piece. But KEP really know what there's doing and I call tell it's not the first time they've done it on this combo.

2014-11-08 08.11.07.jpg

KEP pressure plate and clutch (not shown) Porsche Turbo Stage 1 (about 550hp) installed with starter ring gear. Notice the longer stud on the bottom of the 2nd pic. This goes for the starter. Which means the starter will be located at the bottom right (passenger's side) of the transmission, instead of upper left in normal Porsche configuration.

2014-11-08 10.30.50.jpg
2014-11-08 10.31.01.jpg

This is the missing release fork.

2014-11-08 11.33.59.jpg

[Frank818]

I've been thinking about something related to oil catch cans.

Currently my oil evap goes directly into the intel after... oops, into the inLeT after the air filter and before the turbo inlet. Everyone on the net says that oil catch cans are good if too much oil gunk goes into the intake, which is not that good for the mechanical parts and the engine. But I couldn't find anyone mentioning about the fact the turbo would probably suck air from the oil evap and not just the air filter.

What I mean, is when the turbo sucks air, it probably sucks from any opening before the turbo inlet, right? So would it suck air from the tubing that comes from the engine evap? If yes, would it do any harm to the engine?

On my current setup, the oil gunk is nil as I found some oil drips before the turbo but after the turbo, anywhere, it's always super dry. So for that reason I don't need a catch can, but if there is harm for the turbo to suck air from the oil evap, then I may need a catch can that would not be connected to the turbo inlet, or no catch can and just reroute the oil evap somewhere.

[Speedy G]

From what I remember, the block and head are pressurized by the intake manifold, so whatever is getting sucked into the intake duct has already been measured by the MAF. I'm not sure that the VR6 is the same as the 1.8t, but I'd bet it is. You still have a MAF btw?

Looking good on the tranny front. Everything looks pretty beefy. Did you weigh the whole assembly to see how much rotational mass you're going to have?