Frank818 -1993 VW VR6 Turbo donor- Build Thread

[STiPWRD]

Yea, I think a video would be helpful. I'm having trouble following the explanation about the blinker arm and the steering column lever. Either way I'd like to figure this out as well since I'm using the same LEDs. Are you saying the power to the DRLs is intermittent? I'm working under the assumption that they receive constant power and the relay approach simply diverts that power when the blinker lights receive a voltage.

[Frank818]

Precisely, the DRLs are intermittent, at the opposite moment of the blinkers.

I'll be capable of shooting the vid tomorrow night.

In the meantime here's a short time sequential explanation.

DRL = white DRL LEDs
SIG = amber turn signal LEDs
GLO = Global result of the entire 23mm globe whether either LED (white or amber) or both are on or off

When you drive with DRLs on and no blinker it's like this (don't mind the dashes (-), it's just to keep stuff in line to read easier):

Seq 001-002-003-004-005
DRL ON--ON--ON--ON-ON
SIG OFF-OFF-OFF-OFF-OFF
GLO ON--ON--ON--ON-ON

When you decide to turn or change lane and trigger the blinkers by raising or lowering the steering column blinker arm lever, you normally want this:

Seq 001-002-003-004-005
DRL OFF-OFF-OFF-OFF-OFF
SIG ON--OFF-ON--OFF-ON
GLO ON--OFF-ON-OFF-ON

But with Eagle's and simple 5-pin relay without a time controller, you get this:

Seq 001-002-003-004-005
DRL OFF-ON-OFF-ON--OFF
SIG ON--OFF-ON--OFF-ON
GLO ON--ON--ON--ON-ON

[svanlare]

What is the GLO signal? I assumed the lights had two power leads (one for white and one for amber) and a common ground wire. Is there a 4th wire?

Anyways, couldn't you cheat and not use a timer by using the input to the infinity box system from the blinker to turn off the DRL light (letting the infinity box control the blinker as expected by toggling the +12 to the signal). Something like this? I drew the LEDs as a light in this picture.

DRL.jpg

[aquillen]

Late model Camaro markers. Sweet job by the way.

Wondering if any of the side markers can be heat reshaped to fit the rear curve. Anyone ever try that?

[Frank818]

What is the GLO signal? I assumed the lights had two power leads (one for white and one for amber) and a common ground wire. Is there a 4th wire?

Anyways, couldn't you cheat and not use a timer by using the input to the infinity box system from the blinker to turn off the DRL light (letting the infinity box control the blinker as expected by toggling the +12 to the signal). Something like this? I drew the LEDs as a light in this picture.

DRL.jpg

Excellent diagram Steve! It will work as long as the turn signal switch's signal out of the column is constant. I don't know how Subaru generates the intermittent signal out of it. I could have checked, that's true. In the end it cost me less than 20 bucks for 8 drivers. Because my wiring is all done, because I'd like to keep the car relay free and because the drivers had an intergrated less than 10mm connector plug, I jumped on it.

But for most people I think your diagram is the perfect one. If the signal is constant out of the column.

The GLO line is the entire 23mm socket, whether there is at least one of the 2 (white and/or yellow) led turned on or off, it would then write on or off. Off when white and yellow are off and on when either or both are on.

[Frank818]

Late model Camaro markers. Sweet job by the way.

Wondering if any of the side markers can be heat reshaped to fit the rear curve. Anyone ever try that?

Very very close.

SideMarkers.PNG



I thought of that, to reshape the markers. Maybe. I know the grey plastic behind the lense can be shaped cuz the OEM bulbs already shaped a concave "O" in the plastic, due to heat. That's a small design flaw to me, not sure if after a long time it could melt a hole through. I changed the bulbs for LEDs, of course.

As for the lenses themselves, I don't know if a heat gun can reshape and how the plastic will turn out, but it's not impossible. They are pricey so I didn't want to try.

[STiPWRD]

Precisely, the DRLs are intermittent, at the opposite moment of the blinkers.

I'll be capable of shooting the vid tomorrow night.

In the meantime here's a short time sequential explanation.

DRL = white DRL LEDs
SIG = amber turn signal LEDs
GLO = Global result of the entire 23mm globe whether either LED (white or amber) or both are on or off

When you drive with DRLs on and no blinker it's like this (don't mind the dashes (-), it's just to keep stuff in line to read easier):

Seq 001-002-003-004-005
DRL ON--ON--ON--ON-ON
SIG OFF-OFF-OFF-OFF-OFF
GLO ON--ON--ON--ON-ON

When you decide to turn or change lane and trigger the blinkers by raising or lowering the steering column blinker arm lever, you normally want this:

Seq 001-002-003-004-005
DRL OFF-OFF-OFF-OFF-OFF
SIG ON--OFF-ON--OFF-ON
GLO ON--OFF-ON-OFF-ON

But with Eagle's and simple 5-pin relay without a time controller, you get this:

Seq 001-002-003-004-005
DRL OFF-ON-OFF-ON--OFF
SIG ON--OFF-ON--OFF-ON
GLO ON--ON--ON--ON-ON

Now I see what you mean, you want to turn the DRLs completely off throughout the duration of each blinker on-off sequence. I also didn't know you wanted to keep the car relay free. Now things make more sense. I guess I don't necessarily mind having the white LEDs on when the amber ones are not flashing (during a blinker sequence).

[Frank818]

Correct, yes. And I'm not even sure it's legal here to flash DRLs or low beams. I know the regulation is tricky regarding any flashing red, blue and white lights, anything too close to imitate a cop is not legal. 15 years ago I got pulled over cuz I had purple 5watts parking lights in my Corrado's headlights, that gives you an idea. The cop told me blue (although they were purple, could fight in court for that) lights on a car are not legal. I really don't want to take the chance here with flashing DRLs.

But for those who don't mind if they flash, than a plain relay is fine. Or you mind and a relay doesn't mind or you don't mind reworking your wiring, then Steve's diagram is just awesome, assuming the turn signal switch's signal is constant off of the column.

So that's a case closed, I guess?

[Canadian818]

Frank, my F150's drl are the amber turn signals and they flash.

[Frank818]

The DRLs flash along with the turn signal? I didn't know OEM does it that way. And I highly doubt a car in AB is built differently than a car in QC. I see a lot of F-150s (as anywhere in NA anyway) and never noticed that, what year/version? I will try to spot on a few around and say to the driver "Hey man, Adam says the DRLs flash, activate your blinker, plz" lolll

But either way, I personnaly don't like when the DRLs blink in between the turn signal, I still want to fix this for me. And for 20 bucks I think I fixed it as well as the connector plugs.

For a couple of bucks but more time, Steve's diagram is perfect.

[wleehendrick]

The DRLs flash along with the turn signal? I didn't know OEM does it that way.

I've noticed that with the newer/trendy perimeter strip LED DRLs (not lamp type DRLs) most turn off the DRL on the side that the turn signal active on for better front turn signal visibility. Lamp DRLs seem to always stay on. On the newer VAG's with the LED strip DRLs, I think the function can be adjusted. So, there doesn't seem to be consistancy that I've noticed.

[Frank818]

Very very close.

SideMarkers.PNG

08-14 Dodge Challenger/Charger side markers on all 4 corners. It's official, my car is American!

So, there doesn't seem to be consistency that I've noticed.

Correct, it's just like building a kit car. lollll

[wleehendrick]

08-14 Dodge Challenger/Charger side markers on all 4 corners. It's official, my car is American!

Frank, the Dodge Challenger/Charger are built in Brampton, Ontario. Sorry, still Canadian!

[Canadian818]

Frank, the Dodge Challenger/Charger are built in Brampton, Ontario. Sorry, still Canadian!

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

[Frank818]

Waitwait lolll, I meant the spirit of the car is American, not where it's built. If I were to look at that only, the side markers are made in China (written in the back), so actually my 818 is Chinese.

But Dodge is owned by USA people right? I guess proud Americans made the design too? And it has a nice American V8 rumble in it, although that won't do anything to my side markers...

[myjones]

Waitwait lolll, I meant the spirit of the car is American, not where it's built. If I were to look at that only, the side markers are made in China (written in the back), so actually my 818 is Chinese.

But Dodge is owned by USA people right? I guess proud Americans made the design too? And it has a nice American V8 rumble in it, although that won't do anything to my side markers...

The Dodge marq is now owned by the Italians, has all the Hemi's built in Mexico and is assembled in Canada so it's more of a Mutt/Heinz57/Canardly tell
BUT the spirit of any SRT is definitely American
DB Hemi33

[Frank818]

The Dodge marq is now owned by the Italians, has all the Hemi's built in Mexico and is assembled in Canada so it's more of a Mutt/Heinz57/Canardly tell

Oh crap lolll

BUT the spirit of any SRT is definitely American

Phew!!!! Thanks for that. SRT and Hellcat, I believe. And of course the HPE1000. 100% American power!

[Frank818]

Today I video taped Wayne riding his new toy, first vehicle on the video.

[Frank818]

This is what I call a true switchback:

[Frank818]

If you take a look at 7m21s, for 1m05sec long, these guys are doing EXACTLY what we are doing with our 818s!!! Amazing! And this is a 1M Euro car.




Also listen carefully to what the guy says at 25m08s+. They know how to build a car.

[Canadian818]

This is what I call a true switchback:

Where can I buy these?

[Frank818]

You can buy them anywhere in the world, as long as you have internet access. Oh, uhm, you meant... yeah... sorry. loll

Here http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from...d+tube&_sop=15

[Frank818]

And it continues.

Body completed!

Ok what's my definition of "completed". Well I did not touch the ****ing doors yet, that's in the end. And I have not cut the hood louvers, at the end as well. But everything else is done. All bolts are drilled, I mean holes, the body can fit on the car all together including diffuser and splitter. I have done my upper and bottom VRaptor's rear bumper grills, I have cut the humps louvers, the engine cover top NACA ducts, my side sails NACA ducts, belly pan NACA ducts, the side sails scoops openings and I have fitted Kurk's big side scoops.

What's left are smaller things, like VRaptor's side scoop louvers, Craig's front hood hinges, epoxying louvers all around, glassing brackets for my side markers, fixing broken body parts, stuff like that.
I have fitted all 4 side markers. Last one took me half the original time, 2-2h15.

Kurk's side scoop where complicated to fit, unlike Chad. The holes for the epoxied bolts are almost impossible to have right in a 1/4 hole. Needed to enlarge and enlarge many times all of the holes, but it won't affect strength cuz it doesn't require a lot of torque on the nuts to keep the scoops tight on the body. Also there's a gap left mostly at the bottom and a bit rear of the scoop. It's worse on the driver's side, I'm happy how it turned out on the pass but driver took me twice as long for twice worse result. I had to trim and adjust and stress the scoop in order to fit and it's not as good as pass. I don't know yet what to use to hide that gap. Though of silicone but I think it won't last in an area exposed like this. I would prefer tiny round rubber strips I could glue on the scoops, but I can't find what I want, it's like those around OEM headlight buckets.

For those fitting VRaptor's louvers (I'm the only one I think), you CANNOT cut the inner recess section of the FFR scoop, like Kurk did. Cuz you need all of it to epoxy the louvers on. And since I cut the FFR scoops all the way to the outside edge, Kurk's scoops cannot be drilled and attached on the curvy side. It needs to be cut out as well. So I drilled a hole at the top rear of the scoop to keep it the rear tucked in.

These pix are all from passenger.

2016-10-10 10.43.03_1.jpg2016-10-10 10.43.12_1.jpg2016-10-10 10.43.55_1.jpg2016-10-10 10.44.13_1.jpg2016-10-10 10.44.24_1.jpg



I always start with the passenger side so if I make a mistake I care less cuz I will never see it. But for some reason, I counted 5 things that are done better on the passenger side than the driver. That sucks.

[Canadian818]

Looking good Frank! What's the purpose of using the side scoops and louvers together?

[Frank818]

Kurk's side scoops are to get more air in (proven to work) and also for looks, I will wrap them matte black and my side sails will be matte blue.

The louvers are mostly to redirect air where it's useful (most nice cars know how to, check out Porsche with their side scoops, if they don't have 1+ fin in it, then they have designed the scoop to be efficient in the 1st place. I'm sure FFR didn't and I'd be wrong to assume they did).
They may help smooth out the airflow if the air is turbulent in that area (no one knows) but their main effect is to redirect air in the right location. Without them the airflow hits directly on the rear splash guard. That's inefficient, especially that my intake filter is located at the top front of that splash guard, so I want as much air as possible there. The excess will flow over the guard and to the rear bumper, helping a little, I guess, moving hot exhaust air around. Any little thing I can do to move the exhaust air should be good. I am doing many of those little things so I expect a good result in the end.

[Frank818]

I'm looking for advice on shock rebound adjustment.

I read and reread articles and whatnots on internet about rebound damping and I always end up confused with no decision taken.

If I understood, "more rebound damping" = "stiff rebound damping" = "shock will get back to its original position more slowly" = "could cause packing if the shock has not come done and the wheel hits another bump". Is that all true?

Then, let's assume a shock has 3 adjustable positions, less/soft damping (63 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham with blown shocks), average (Subaru Impreza) and high/stiff damping (F1).

With an impreza engine and a weight of Xlbs in the back the shocks are set to AVERAGE and the car handles perfectly on straights and curves, with and without bumps and weight transfer is done in a way to maximize traction.

Now I change the drivetrain and fit something with more weight, say X+Ylbs. Now the magical question: if I want to keep that balance I had before, should I stiffen the rebound (turn clockwise for F1 powaaaa) or soften the rebound (turn counterclockwise for Cadillac boat ride)?

Who's gonna risk himself answering that.

[Hindsight]

Well the shocks are valved for the springs, the unsprung weight of the car, the motion ratio of the suspension, and the weight of the car. You can't compare it to the impreza.

With your engine, I'm guessing you are going to need stiffer springs anyway.

There are really only two ways of figuring out what shocks and shock settings to run:
1. Math (requires someone who knows what they are doing, and a bunch of measurements you take - similar to what i did)
2. Trial and error

Math gets you close enough to ballpark it, but you still need to adjust the shocks to fine tune it. So really, #2 is the only way. Sorry I am guessing you are asking because you want to set the shocks at some setting now and not have to futz with them again.

There are books and articles online on how to tell if you need more or less rebound (based on what you feel while driving), and the best racers will change their settings based on the race track they are running on a particular day.

[Frank818]

I was expecting you to reply.

So then it confirms what I thought but didn't say, that the rebound adjustment cannot be used to compensate significantly added weight over the weight the suspension was designed for. Makes sense.

Then I will wait until 1- I get to test the FFR setup and feel if it's too mushy and 2- get to scale the car, then I would send off those numbers to Koni and since they know every other numbers part of the equation, they would just swap the corner weights and F/R weights with mines and would probably have enough info to guide me through which setup I would need.

That's the approach I'll take for now.

[Hindsight]

That sounds like a good approach to me Frank. You'll want to get corner weights on the car, then contact them about both shock valving, as well as spring rates, because they will need to be paired together.

[Frank818]

Yes, I believe I'll need to change all 8 components, at least I'll get minded to that so I won't have any surprises if it happens.

Should I adjust the corner weights (as equal as possible) before I give them the numbers or do I just drop the car on scales and give the raw results without adjustments?

[RetroRacing]

Yes, you need to worry about weight jacking when playing with rebound. Rebound controls the "bounce" of the spring as in the speed at which the spring rebounds from compression. Stiffer springs require more rebound. To much spring and to little rebound equals abrupt transition, throws weight side to side, front to back. Too little spring and too much rebound makes it so that the spring can't return fully to ride height, and in transition can actually "jack down", which transitions the weight of the car (and overheats the shock). Quite frankly, it's voodoo, plain and simple. A good shock guy can make a HUGE difference in lap times, ease of drive, etc. We desperately need one, even though our car is working quite well, in this case, I know what I don't know and shock tuning is it.

We have it set up safe. That allows us to get some data to give to a shock witch doctor so that we can spend money once, if required, and begin the fine tuning process. Lot's of guys go spend money on remote adjustable shocks, then never adjust them, and sometimes don't even need them. Personally, I would start simple, adjust one thing at a time and get hours on the car. Keep notes, including tire temps, heat cycles, durometer readings, air pressure, track temp, air temp, how much fuel is in the car, etc. Take out as many variables as you can (like run the same amount of fuel for testing everytime). Never use your first two or three laps as an indicator, tires and cars need to be at operating temp. Use the same driver in the car, one that knows the car. Driving styles are sometimes extremely different and can really skew results.

[Frank818]

Interesting information indeed. It's true the driver makes a huge difference, F1 setups are there to prove it, every driver uses his own suspension setup and other driver driving a different car would not do as good laps.

Seems really the best to 1st test my current setup, maybe try one rebound adjustment and see the difference. Although chances are I would really need different springs and shocks just because I have a few 100s more lbs in the back and probably a good. Testing is first step. As for front, water weighs 8.35lbs per gallon and I have around 4gal that FFR doesn't, that's 33lbs.

[Frank818]

Today was my 1st 818 encounter. Or should I say 1st 818 guy encounter.

Frank (818R) came along to get the old bumper and fenders from the old nose, as spare parts. He did the trip with Frank. Nope, I haven't copy-pasted our names, here. All of us were Franks, quite frankly! Can't forget anyone's name with that.

I learned a lot of things about what he did, discussing our builds on the forum vs in person is totally different!
He also rejuvenated my interest in my build. While we were grabbing something to eat, he was describing how the 818 feels and compares to other cars and what other cars he'd not get over the 818. Turns out the 818 is exactly the type of car I was looking for and that for even twice or 3 times the price I couldn't find anything close to it, not even the rawest cars on the market. I kinda knew that in a certain way, but he gave me more details and proof that the 818 is THE car. It put a wider smile on my face which now I'm sure I'll keep all the time through my build. If I ever lose it, I'll think again about what he described and it'll get back.

The only downside of this chat is that now I am 100 times eager to get the car done. lolll Tnx for that, Frank...

My goal is to have it done soon enough to drive down to his place and have fun around!


2016-10-22 16.20.50_1.jpg

[Scargo]

To be frank, I have to ask, did you guys have hot dogs? Nice story, though it's confusing. Couldn't one of you be "Bubba"?

[redfogo]

Frank I love those side sails NACA ducts. I might have to borrow that idea . Builds looking great!

[Frank818]

Frank I love those side sails NACA ducts. I might have to borrow that idea . Builds looking great!

Tnx, you'd be the second one if Adam's rotary decides to implement that solution as well. I can't wait to see how it looks with the bi-color wraps on the car. A few more months!

[Scargo]

Frank I love those side sails NACA ducts...

They are not NACA ducts!
The bigger scoops are needed but they need to directly cool an oil cooler or intercooler. I seriously doubt they are big enough for track duty even if they are fully utilized.

[AZPete]

Shop is much too clean. Probably just a photoshop phony with one 818 and two Franks spliced in.

[Frank818]

They are not NACA ducts!
The bigger scoops are needed but they need to directly cool an oil cooler or intercooler. I seriously doubt they are big enough for track duty even if they are fully utilized.

They are NACA ducts-like shape for airflow only, no cooling in mind for those. It may help drag the hot air from the hot coolant pipe away from the tank and part of side pods, but I don't know. Their main purpose is looks.

Shop is much too clean. Probably just a photoshop phony with one 818 and two Franks spliced in.

The shop is dirty on the pic.

[longislandwrx]

3 Franks... it's a damn sausage party.

I hope you guys had some classic one liners.

https://youtu.be/B0RQe1dMb04