Frank818 -1993 VW VR6 Turbo donor- Build Thread

[Frank818]

[Frank818]

Attachment 130839Attachment 130840Attachment 130841Attachment 130842Attachment 130843Attachment 130844Attachment 130845Attachment 1308472020-06-30 07.35.43.jpg


As you can see, the downpipe is barely hotter than the pipe after the muffler!
I will put some protection. I also don't want my 3rd brake light to melt.

[Ajzride]

Frank if you are not careful you might actually get to drive your car instead of work on it.

[AZPete]

Frank, seeing your success has just made my whole day much better! Your AFR stays perfect but the video doesn't show your big smile and feeling of accomplishments.

[Frank818]

All true, AZP! Since I am filming while driving, the only way I can make that happen is by filming the rear-view mirror, definitely possible! Will try to remember that next time.

Ran again this morning and still pretty awesome. I have interesting exhaust temperature comparison screenshots that I'll share later on. Before and after applying heat-repellent material on the exhaust and surroundings.

Those who wonder how this stuff helps or not to reduce engine bay heat, I screenshots to show the difference.

[Frank818]

Ok temp comparisons.


Before and after the exhaust wrap only on the muffler's outlet elbow. Massive change.

2020-06-30 07.34.37.jpg2020-07-02 07.34.11.jpg



On the muffler.

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Before and after the gold sheet glued on the inside of the bumper to protect the 3rd brake light.

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And the manifold heat, which was quite higher on my second run (the one with heat protection back on the muffler and bumper). Although the max temp recorded, as you can see, was higher on the 1st pic. Maybe the location of the laser is very sensitive, here. I think the most important to compare is the muffler temp above, since how hot it is before the muffler doesn't really matter here for the comparison.

2020-06-30 07.35.43.jpg2020-07-02 07.34.54.jpg

Non-scientific, but still gives a rough idea.


The funny thing is I took those pix within the same minute 2 days apart. Some pix were within 16sec, 2 days apart. Wasn't on purpose!


So this morning's drive was better than Tuesday. I need to go further next time, otherwise I never will.



You have to know your rear deck lid panels may cause vibrations or noises by bouncing on each other or the side sails. Make sure you either give enough clearance or put some rubber or foam protection to secure them in place and prevent loseness. I did that and it fixed those tap tap tap tap noises I had, similar to when your panels are getting dismantled and will fall off.



Now this is an almost perfect cold startup, very quick to crank compared to previous YEARS!

[Frank818]

I have an exhaust WG question for you guys.

I want to test my WG disconnected from the dump tube, cuz I think the small dump tube below might be causing my exhaust vibration. I know it vibrates when I hit on it sometimes or if I disconnect it and kink it, there is a section of the tube inside hitting the inner wall of the below or something.

If I disconnect the dump tube and make sure my WG (electronically controlled be me) is set NOT to open under say 10psi and I boost no more than 4-5psi in RARE occasions (vacuum most of the time!), is that ok? Can I drive without the exhaust flowing out of the WG and possibly setting something on fire inside the engine bay?

[Frank818]

but the video doesn't show your big smile and feeling of accomplishments.

PeteAZ (sounds Mexican but you're not), this is just for you:

[mikeb75]

nice!

[Canadian818]

I have an exhaust WG question for you guys.

I want to test my WG disconnected from the dump tube, cuz I think the small dump tube below might be causing my exhaust vibration. I know it vibrates when I hit on it sometimes or if I disconnect it and kink it, there is a section of the tube inside hitting the inner wall of the below or something.

If I disconnect the dump tube and make sure my WG (electronically controlled be me) is set NOT to open under say 10psi and I boost no more than 4-5psi in RARE occasions (vacuum most of the time!), is that ok? Can I drive without the exhaust flowing out of the WG and possibly setting something on fire inside the engine bay?

Yes your idea is sound, however it’s always possible that your wastegate will start bleeding some exhaust much earlier. But unless it’s shot, you’d be safe to test it under vacuum. I’d suggest removing it and give it some good revs while you’re checking to make sure it’s sealed. Please don’t use your bare hand to test, lol. You could also disconnect the reference hose so it can’t open. Obviously just for testing purposes while watching the boost gauge.

[Frank818]

HA! Damn it, disconnecting the hose, I haven't thought about that, that's the best way to make sure it's as shot as possible! See? When you are the forums there is always something great happening! loll


I'll try that at some point during my vacations which are coming very soon. I want to drive the car more until I spend time working on it.
Need to make sure I close up the dump tube so gases don't flow backwards and up the tube. I'll use a small alu piece that I'll cut out from one of the many FFR alu panels I am not using. loll And sandwhich that in using my WG flanges.

[AZPete]

Nice grin, Frank! Drive, drive, drive during your vacation.

[Frank818]

No video this morning for my drive cuz they are too short, very hard to take "nice" vids while driving with one hand and watching a bunch of stuff.

But I can tell the car still runs as good as before (reproducibilty is important!!), same noises happen in the same scenarios, but also timing and fuel are still as AWESOME as before. Actually on that I remember many people complained about exhaust gases smell cuz it backdrafts in the cockpit. Well since I fixed my fuel map and timing map, the burn is so great it does not smell fuel, not even in my garage after a couple of revs. Besides, my exhaust tip is free of soot! That never happened since I am turbo in 2009 or so. It's now the 4th or so run and no accumulation of soot on the tip. I used to have soot at the instant of cranking and then all the time while driving.

It does smell a bit but other stuff, like cooked paint, hot plastic, hot rubber, hot fiberglass/wrap, hot coolant, oil, exhaust wrap, grease, etc... but it's very minor, that pleases me a lot.


My metallic vibration seems to be back to what it was with my old muffler, though. Seems to vibrate at least up to 3500-3600, it's worse when all the car is quite warm. Very very annoying.
Soon I should be able to drive to my mech's shop and I told him "you're going to identify me that f*ing vibration, man, cuz it drives me crazy as hell". loll

[Frank818]

Sharing some good product with you guys, in case some might need it.


LUCAS HEAVY-DUTY OIL STABILIZER

Lucas.png
https://lucasoil.com/products/engine-oil-additives/heavy-duty-oil-stabilizer


This thing fixed my cam follower tapping. I was suspicious about it but there was no way to know without trying! I did and it worked! What people say about this thing seems to be true, it wasn't FAKE NEWS for me.
Obviously my tapping issue is due to low oil pressure, but the low oil pressure is caused by something still unknown 14 months later, so I found a band-aid to patch it up, one that should not cause any collateral damage. Why not? Since it doesn't cost more than high end grade oil and I don't need more than 15-20% per oil change, it's acceptable.

[Frank818]

Guys you have to solidify your moving panels. Maybe the front hood, but mostly the 2 rear deck lids. If not there is a good chance if you got some gap at some places between those panels they will bounce on each other while driving and the panels seem to get softer when very hot so the bouncing is amplified. I have filled the gaps on mine with simple rubber seals and now the panels don't move at all. This removed some weird noises while driving but mostly at very low rpms or speeds or even when revving standing still when the rpms drop.

Technically speaking since my cam follower and my panels don't make noise anymore, I am only left with that DAMN metallic vibration. All the other not normal noises seem to be fixed, which is a great improvement!

On the above video from 24s to 29s you can hear the vibration and that is when oil is still cold. When it gets warmer it gets worse.

In fact, now that I have fixed my leaks, fuelling, timing, exhaust installation and muffler, wheel alignment (pretty good now can easily drive anywhere until I get laser aligned), cam follower noise, panel noises and most probably fuel hose slipping off, I am only left with my metallic vibration.

This morning I realized why I am not driving the car more than 30mins every single time.
At 1st it was the fear of the fuel hose slipping off again. But now I am ready to drive longer and further (or farther?), but as soon as I start hearing the vibration too loud, I turn around and come back home shifting at 2200-2300rpm all the time. That is exactly what happened this morning! I was about to extend my drive and TAK TAK TAK TAK TAK TAK TAK TAK, so at the next stop instead of driving fwd I made a turn right and came back home, trying to avoid as much people as possible and shifting super low when anyone was around.


I made a few minor changes today here and there and I'll see next time if it vibrates again. I have checked many bolts and nuts for looseness, brake lines, wires, heat shields, exhaust hangers, alu panels, fiberglass panels, clamps, oil pan block-off AN fitting and many other little things.
Dump tube below still on my list to check, although I did apply noticeable changes to how it was installed last winter and the noise has not changed at all.
I have one big other in mind, which would be related to the oil pump stem and gear that drive upwards the engine. Hard to reach, but what if it's not working properly, this could explain the low oil pressure and more noise when oil get hot. Although the noise does not change at all no matter the oil weight, so... I really have to swallow my pride on that noise and drive to my mech's shop. I won't make it without him looking at it.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hey Frank,
I have a chevy 5.3L v8 with 400,000 Km on the clock. It sound like that until it's warmed up, then is goes away. I'ts been doing it for 100,000 Km. I think it's piston Slap.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=806MP_wDYZs

[Frank818]

Hey Bob!! Long time no write, welcome back!

You are correct, I am not worried about that sound causing car problems. It simply removes almost all my joy of driving it and once I start hearing it, I get so disappointed and ashamed that I stop driving it.


It doesn't sound much like piston slap.
No sound when cold, gets worse when hot and stays there.
Started on 1st crank after my 100% newly rebuilt engine.
Changed muffler and redesigned hangers.
Removed head and manifolds at least twice since.
Removed cams and gears at least 4 times.
The sound is so crisp when hot that it has to be happening on a part surrounded by air, now that I think about it. Therefore any part in a liquid filled area is not making that noise.

The noise is louder when NOT under load. When cruising at the right spot that is its loudest. Also happens loud, but not as much, when upshifting and downshifting, for about less than 1 sec while the engine is under no load at all.

Never happens on idle or when revving up at idle standing still, yet it happens when up/downshifting while pressing the clutch....
Never ever happened at less than 2200-2300rpm.
Seems to be happening even up to 3500rpm, so far I didn't go really over that due to break-in period.
Noise does not always happen at the same rpms, sometimes I'm good until 2500 or 2700, sometimes it starts at 2400. The noise loudness varies while I increase or decrease rpms and the fluctuation is not always the same at the same rpms.

It truely sounds like (no play on words loll) a vibration related to frequencies. The engine must be sending some wave frequencies through the frame or parts around and that part shakes.
It is not the engine shaking making the noise, it is the engine sending vibrations to that part which in turn slaps on something, that's my theory so far.



So exit the oil pump rod as it is filled with oil on its entire length.
Still thinking about my dump tube bellow which I know makes a CLIP CLIP sound when I manually flex it. However I had that dump tube in place BEFORE the engine rebuild and it was not making noise.

I'll try to record a much better video next time.

[longislandwrx]

can you just drive with your panels off and have a buddy listen to where the sound is coming from? should be able to climb around the car at that speed and find the sound.

[Ajzride]

A 1 meter piece of heater hose held to the ear works nicely for isolating a sounds location.

[Frank818]

can you just drive with your panels off and have a buddy listen to where the sound is coming from? should be able to climb around the car at that speed and find the sound.

Funny thing is I thought about that crazy drive! Just like Jean Alesi on top of Schumacher's car at the 95 Montreal Grand Prix... Good old days! Takes crazy troubleshooting to find a crazy noise, I guess.

There's only one place I can do that and it's not around here, too many chances seeing cops and I believe I'd get my license suspended for 7, 10 or 30 days for such thing, they are very severe about car surfing, with reasons. At my mech's shop though it would work and since he's too old for that kind of thing (and too heavy to climb), I can ask his son to come on on top of the engine bay. 1st gear should plenty do it.


Might be a bit hard to use a hose on an ear as while the car is moving and there's a lot of heat over the engine I'm not sure how he can make it, holding himself with one hand and the hose with the other, but all tricks are welcomed and I'll let him know so that we try as much things as possible. I'll have my mech take a video of all this! loll




Other than that just so everyone know the car runs great and seems all normal, which is very very great news after all this time! 50% of the countless issues are fixed, the other 50 is only that noise. loll

[flynntuna]

Does the noise only happen when the car is moving? That would suggest I'm guessing that it's not the engine. Have you looked at the transmission, clutch, axels or wheel bearings. Just a thought.

[Frank818]

Does the noise only happen when the car is moving? That would suggest I'm guessing that it's not the engine. Have you looked at the transmission, clutch, axels or wheel bearings. Just a thought.

Nice thoughts.

Yes only when on the move. However that doesn't mean the noise is not there at idle. It MAY be possible to hear just a VERY little bit if revving at idle but it's so damn faint, if it is making noise then, that you don't hear it or the muffler makes more noise. Impossible to record on video. Also I tried with Brian when he came by last Oct, he had his head inside the engine bay and couldn't hear crap. But while driving it was very loud.

I don't know yet what to look for around the gearbox, I checked the bolts and nuts, I checked fork play or slave cylinder stuff but didn't find anything. Of course all this when engine was cold and shut down.
Couldn't go further at the clutch and flywheel unless the gearbox is removed. But it would make sense if the noise was to come from there.

The rear right hub bearing has been changed 5 times and.. hum, the last time it got changed was during engine rebuild. Why would it only vibrate at certain rpms I'm not sure there could be a link there, I'll check for play around and on the hub. However I know at idle the sound can be heard, maybe at 5% its usual loudness. So little it's hard to come to a conclusion.

I also am 98% positive the sound comes from the passenger side or very center of the engine, cuz I hear it more with my right ear. If it were on the driver's side, I would hear it from behind, equal ears, or a bit more on my left one. Usually my ears are pretty good at finding the orientation of sounds.

The gearbox, clutch and stuff like that are exactly my questions for my mech, once I can get there. He'll have a lot more ideas on those parts than I do and if one of em can make such a noise I'm pretty sure he would know. This is also why I can't wait to drive there. lolll

[FFRWRX]

A heat shield or bracket or something like that vibrating? I've had, and I'm sure others have too, loose heat shields that only rattle at certain RPM's. Anything on the front of the engine that could be loose? Or something close to another part; a bracket very close to another part? Bang on different parts of the engine with a rubber mallet and see if it shows up?

[Frank818]

Right on time with this, that is pretty much what I am doing recently. Although I am not sure if when cold it would make noise even if I bang on it.

So far removed all possible shields, plates, panels, double-checked many brackets, still a few more I'll continue looking around for what I can access when everything is installed. That, your banging thing, is pretty much what's left I can do until I get my mech look at it. I might remove some stuff to gain better access elsewhere, let's see what I can do this w-e I start my vacations this Friday early morning.

[flynntuna]

Just turn up the stereo till you can't hear it anymore. And /or install muffler bypass valve in the exhaust. If you can drown out the offending noise then problem solved.

[longislandwrx]

have you tried running the car on jackstands? use a clamp to hold the car at the right rpm and walk around it?

[Frank818]

have you tried running the car on jackstands? use a clamp to hold the car at the right rpm and walk around it?

Never thought of that, probably easier to do than unplugging my dump tube, sealing it off somehow and test driving the car. So next time I get out (and I don't know when that'll be, see next post) once I get in I'll jack it and restart it while it's still running hot. Hopefully that'll provide enough load to make the vibration occur.

[Frank818]

Car is re-opened again.

The cause for this is 3 sessions ago after I came back I fixed a SUPER loose clamp on the turbo outlet, it was pushing air outside the intake piping when over 0psi I could hear it so I knew something was wrong. It's like a vacuum leak but before the TB. Curiously my fuelling was TOP NOTCH at that time. Turns out I tuned the fuel taking into account that leak in the piping, seemed like I made an excellent job.

Then the last 2 sessions have been troublesome a bit. Fuelling changed right after fixing that leak. I have to re-tune again, hopefully I'll get that same luck eventually. But this means I can't drive far anymore and not possible to visit my mech for the vibration, would be SO much easier to just roll the car on the lift at his shop and rev it up! (see longisland's idea above)

I found 2 other issues....

1- My ECU is reporting FAKE TPS movements. Very fast movements hundreds of times between 50C to 82C coolant temp, not before, not after. These started about 2-3 sessions ago but got more frequent in last session. The movements are about 15% fluctuations one way within 100ms, that is say 22% TPS down to 7% TPS and back up to 22%, within 200ms. Humanly impossible but say during 5sec this can happen 10-15 times, humanly impossible to be that fast and precise. Also if done by me, the map pressure would change, but RPM, TIMING, MAP, OIL PRESSURE, all that are super constant, except TPS %. It did it also while accelerating. This causes my transient fuelling to kick in so it fuel or cut fuels many many many times, which messes up my fuelling. I think I found a way to over come this without fixing it, but it may have collateral damages elsewhere, we'll see. Maybe it's an electrical issue I don't know.

2- I found out my pedal cable does not retract fully when the pedal is completely lifted up. There's about half an inch where the bead does not retract into its bowl on top of the pedal rod. This cut 3% out of my 0-100% TPS, can't go over 97%. Not much of an issue, but the pedal is super loose for half an inch and this means the cable over the fuel tank has slipped slightly out of its crimping. I had to crimp the Subaru cable and the VW cable in order to make a hybrid cable. If I let things like this, the cable may completely slip off while driving, which means 1-800-TOWING as fast as my fuel hose was slipping off. So I have to find a solution. The cables are very short, I cannot twist them around a bolt and crush the cables between washers, I don't have enough cable length over the tank. That would have been great, so I have to see what I can do.

This should delay for a few days my next drive, which sucks. Or more if I need to buy a Subaru cable and VW cable and cut them longer than I did 5 years ago.

[Frank818]

Tried to grab some vids of the vibration this week, but the phone doesn't give it justice at all... on the other hand you can clearly hear the engine/exhaust sound, so for that matter enjoy!

[Frank818]

[Frank818]

[flynntuna]

have you tried running the car on jackstands? use a clamp to hold the car at the right rpm and walk around it?

First thing that came to mind...
https://youtu.be/bqjK6jjt6gk

[mikeb75]

just watched your most recent vid, Frank. Looking good. You just need to tape your phone to a hat so you can go hands free!

[Frank818]

Ok on this one the vibration is a little more obvious...

[Frank818]

Trying to mimic Mike... still got to record 20 times longer and I'll be equal! lolll

[Frank818]

Fixed a bunch of little things lately. Car is back on tracks!

TPS signal fixed, at least it was. Made me better understand how to tune the throttle transients, so that was a good thing. Will continue fine tuning those transients.


My first bugs!

2020-07-18 08.16.20.jpg

If fuel looks fine tomorrow morning, I'll try highway.

The vibration really occurs under little to no load, the more load the less vibration.



Also exit the idea of rolling the car on jack stands. Cuz of my driveshaft's CV boots!!

2020-07-18 19.57.59.jpg

They slightly rub on the edge of the metal cup, probably not at ride height but certainly at full droop. On the road it's not much of an issue cuz this situation is rare and lasts for less than a second, say 2sec max. But on jack stands it would run for 3-5-7mins+... unless I put the stands on the spindles but I'm not sure it's safe.

[flynntuna]

If you have an extra set of jack stands, you could support the frame with one set and the spindles with the extra set.

[Frank818]

If you have an extra set of jack stands, you could support the frame with one set and the spindles with the extra set.

I do, I got 4 of em. Not bad. I'll keep that idea on the back burner! Tnx flyn.

[Frank818]

A first and... a third.

The first is I was finally able to drive on the highway (or is it freeway?? What's the difference anyway?).



This car has a lot of potential. Steering is by far the best in the world, so quick and precise, the faster you go, the quicker it is. Also suspension is amazingly stable, as well as the aero, I did not feel the car lighter, actually it seemed to be VERY planted.
The wind is pretty cool at that speed, it doesn't annoy in the cabin and it's still possible to talk, at least I was hearing myself talking to... myself. That was a test, I'm not crazy. I was not at the time I was on highway.
I think any smell from the engine bay does not come much into the cabin at those speeds. But 5mins on highway is not enough to determine that.

So then I'm good for normal drives, right?

The answer on next post.

[Frank818]

The third is I am about to remove the head for a 3rd time.

When I came back downtown at lower speeds, the engine started to lean out across all rpms without any reason. Everything was perfect on my computer, all gauges, temps, everything my ECU sees was normal, except it started to lean out... 15.2... 15.5.... 15.8... 16.1.... (expecting 14.7) That made no ****ing sense whatsoever. I knew something was wrong but there was nothing the electronics could tell me. I had to stop on the side of the road (thank god it was 6h30AM on a Sunday, there's a reason for that) quickly and manually add 5% to my entire fuel map. I was able to get back home. Then I started to worry a lot, as always with this unreliable car.

I thoroughly checked all around the engine. Couple of good things I saw, like the driveshafts didn't seem to have suffered from the higher speed-longer time run. The CV boots were still firmly in place and the rubber didn't seem to be affected in any way. I took the good news. Then I found this ****:

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This is of course on the most difficult place to access which is right behind the firewall where I have less clearing than the thickness of a hand. No, the thickness of a hand, so you can slide down but not move any finger at all.

Obviously this is coming from the head gasket, leaking coolant. It did not seem to leak inside the cylinder as my spark plugs are absolutely perfect on all 6. But this could be the explanation to my weird lean AFRs all of a sudden.

Many people wanted me to just get out and drive the car. Me too. However this is the exact reason why I am neither driving far nor over 30mins. I do not trust this car yet, even after 2500h only trying to make it reliable. Doing baby steps with it allows me to catch those issues quickly when they occur and prevent further damages is I were to drive say 1h or so.

I will not tell you how frustrated I was and still am now when I saw this leak. There's just no word to describe my feeling. Lots of vodka poured through.

I am hoping my head has not warped.

Tomorrow I am going to my mech, I will show him those pix and I will ask him to find a solution so that I don't need to remove the head for a 3rd time in less than a year. He better find one cuz I won't accept no for an answer, not this time.