FFRSpec72 818R Build Seattle WA

[Hindsight]

Does anyone know the max spacer length on the Baer bump steer kit as it is 1-3/4 on the SPL bump steer kit ( http://www.splparts.com/products/spl...s-brz-wrx.html ) and when I measured the bump steer I would need a tad over 2"

I just measured the Baer kit I have and it includes 7/8" of spacers. I'm assuming that is all that will fit, while still having the nut engage.

Retro: I know you drilled your spindles out, but do you know if the pinto kit taper bolt will fit in the taper of the Subaru spindles, by chance? Is the aluminum adapter you used the threaded tube connecting the rod end to the tie rod? If you didn't use the taper bolt or the tube nut, it would seem all you used from the kit was the rod-end and spacers no? Might just be cheaper to build your own kit?

[Mitch Wright]

I also have the Pinto spacer, it drilled to 5/8ID for a 5/8 bolt. The Pinto spacer is 2" going from memory I ended up at 2 7/16 + or - a few thousands at R ride height.
I am headed to the shop after work and will measure up what I actually have for spacers. Remember what I or others have will get you close but you will need to spend sometime dialing the bumpsteer in on your car's set up.

[Hindsight]

I was looking at my Baer kit some more tonight and it doesn't look like the swedged tubes are going to be long enough to engage the tie rods enough. Anyone had that issue? I already have limited thread engagement with the OE tie rod ends and the baer kit tie rod ends are 1" shorter per side, from center of rod end to the end of the swedged tube.

[RetroRacing]

I can measure up a few adapters so that you can just buy the pinto spacer, two 5/8" rh rod ends and two bolts to put the thing together. It just screws right on to the stock steering rack, drill out the arm to 5/8" and bolt everything up. it's just solid alum bar, take it to a machine shop and have the two ends tapped (one for the heim joint, one for the steering rack) and your good to go.

[FFRSpec72]

I can measure up a few adapters so that you can just buy the pinto spacer, two 5/8" rh rod ends and two bolts to put the thing together. It just screws right on to the stock steering rack, drill out the arm to 5/8" and bolt everything up. it's just solid alum bar, take it to a machine shop and have the two ends tapped (one for the heim joint, one for the steering rack) and your good to go.

Would love for someone to make some longer tapered bolts as I really don't want to take off my spindles to have them drilled, already have to pull engine to install dry sump, what a pain this car is becoming or has become.

[Hindsight]

An 818 bump steer kit is a good idea. Maybe I will see what I could put one together for.

[FFRSpec72]

An 818 bump steer kit is a good idea. Maybe I will see what I could put one together for.

Maybe we can get Mechie3 to machine some tapered grade 8 bolts that will allow at least 2.5" of spacers

[Mitch Wright]

Tony,
Pulling off the front hubs is a pretty quick easy job and once you drilled the steering arm your done, couple of 5/8 bolts and spacer and your done. I have the spacer's I made from some 4130 tubing you can have if you want them. I bought the Pinto spacer from Speedway, you will need some 5/8 ID shims to get dialed in.
I do understand where you are coming from but you are so close.

[Mechie3]

Maybe we can get Mechie3 to machine some tapered grade 8 bolts that will allow at least 2.5" of spacers

Give me some dimensions of what you need and I'll see what I can do (machine capability and time allowing).

[DSR-3]

Has anyone tried/looked at these?
Pinto-s-l500.jpg
Speedway Motors

[Hindsight]

They have those in Pinto and GM tapers..... anyone know if either of those are the same as Subaru?

[FFRSpec72]

They have those in Pinto and GM tapers..... anyone know if either of those are the same as Subaru?

Looks like most of the after market ones are 7 or 10 degree taper, so need to find out the taper angle of the Subaru, I don't have one to measure unless I take the end off my 818

[Hindsight]

I will measure my baer taper bolts tonight.

[FFRSpec72]

Or someone can just make a taper bushing/sleve for a 1/2 bolt or what ever mm size the hole in the spindle is

[DSR-3]

Based on some quick and dirty measurements last night- I'm pretty sure the Subaru parts are 7 degree taper.
Since my tie-rod debacle, I've been looking at bump-steer solutions for the replacement.

[FFRSpec72]

Based on some quick and dirty measurements last night- I'm pretty sure the Subaru parts are 7 degree taper.
Since my tie-rod debacle, I've been looking at bump-steer solutions for the replacement.

If that is true, then the pinto spacer, the speedway Adjustable Tie-Rod Adapter Stud to Heim and some ends and would be all set.

Here are some more 7 degree taper http://www.allstarperformance.com/sp...ts/pdf/219.pdf and http://steinjager.com/shop/index.php...oduct_id=30913

[DSR-3]

That's what I'm hoping for. The greatest challenge may be the threaded link or "sleeve". As I recall, the Baer parts are M14 inner thread, and 5/8" outer thread, perfect... Thinking of making them, but I don't have those taps and they are not cheap.

[FFRSpec72]

That's what I'm hoping for. The greatest challenge may be the threaded link or "sleeve". As I recall, the Baer parts are M14 inner thread, and 5/8" outer thread, perfect... Thinking of making them, but I don't have those taps and they are not cheap.

But you could just use a M14 rod end (m14 heim joint) and M14 sleeve and be done

[DSR-3]

The 5/8" adapter post diameter is larger than M14. I've seen oversize shank rod-ends, but not oversized spherical ones, so M16 x M14 is probably not an option. I've not come across an M14 sleeve either.

[Hindsight]

Yes, going to 5/8 from M14 is tough. Will need custom made sleeve. Thats part of the Baer kit but one of us could make a batch of them to sell.

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm going to show my suspension ignorance here: Is the same as the Whiteline Bump Steer pieces? I have them on my Spec B.
http://www.whiteline.com.au/product_..._number=KCA313

https://www.rallysportdirect.com/par...adjustment-kit

[flynntuna]

Yes, going to 5/8 from M14 is tough. Will need custom made sleeve. Thats part of the Baer kit but one of us could make a batch of them to sell.

I'd be in for a group buy.

[FFRSpec72]

I'm going to show my suspension ignorance here: Is the same as the Whiteline Bump Steer pieces? I have them on my Spec B.
http://www.whiteline.com.au/product_..._number=KCA313

https://www.rallysportdirect.com/par...adjustment-kit

So the 818 needs around 2 to 2.25" of spacers and non of the kits provide that so you either have to buy a kit, drill out spindle and get a bolt that is long enough to allow that amount of spacing

[Hindsight]

The whiteline kit affects both roll center and bump steer. I am not sure the roll center changes, which are designed for the WRX, are well-suited fir the 818, and the bump steer portion of it is non adjustable. To get to zero bump steer, you must use an adjustabe kit.

If the speedway taper bolts work, I could probably make aluminum tube nuts myself and offer them here. For anyone piecing sonething together on their own, be sure you get really high quality rod ends, like the kind Pegasus offers.

[RetroRacing]

I bought that whiteline stuff before I knew you needed 2" plus of spacer......so I sold them. I drilled the arms in place, slowly with lots of lube, took about 10 minutes for both sides.

[Hindsight]

Doesn't look like the speedway taper bolts are going to work unfortunately. I measured the Baer taper bolts (and since they are made specifically for the WRX, I have to assume they are correct) and the measurements I get are 0.583 bottom and 0.500 top. The speedway bolts are Top of Taper: 0.560" Bottom of Taper: 0.630". However, it appears the taper degree is the same.

That means someone is going to have to machine something or have it machined. 4140 chromoly steel. Should have a hex shoulder on it too. Wouldn't be super cheap to have something like that made due to the fact that so many steps are involved. It would need to be turned, machined for a hex shoulder, threads cut in top and bottom. You might be able to get away without a hex shoulder, hoping that the taper grips well enough to prevent turning.

I think drilling out the spindle may be the best option. I think Chad did his on the car using a stepped drill bit to start. I believe he has pics in his thread. If you wanted to remove the spindle and put it in a drill press, it would only take 15 minutes to remove it from the car. You don't need to remove the hub.

[FFRSpec72]

Doesn't look like the speedway taper bolts are going to work unfortunately. I measured the Baer taper bolts (and since they are made specifically for the WRX, I have to assume they are correct) and the measurements I get are 0.583 bottom and 0.500 top. The speedway bolts are Top of Taper: 0.560" Bottom of Taper: 0.630". However, it appears the taper degree is the same.

That means someone is going to have to machine something or have it machined. 4140 chromoly steel. Should have a hex shoulder on it too. Wouldn't be super cheap to have something like that made due to the fact that so many steps are involved. It would need to be turned, machined for a hex shoulder, threads cut in top and bottom. You might be able to get away without a hex shoulder, hoping that the taper grips well enough to prevent turning.

I think drilling out the spindle may be the best option. I think Chad did his on the car using a stepped drill bit to start. I believe he has pics in his thread. If you wanted to remove the spindle and put it in a drill press, it would only take 15 minutes to remove it from the car. You don't need to remove the hub.

To do it right and you would also want the bottom threads to be M14 so it would fit in a M14 heim and then use a M14 sleeve, so would need someone to machine that bump steer stud, ohh well

[Mechie3]

Does anyone have a sketch with dimensions of what they're looking for?

[Canadian818]

I neck deep in wiring, but whatever you guys figure out I'm in. I definitely think we need a longer sleeve. When I did my alignment it was concerning how little threads are in the tie rod end. I'm also in the early group where the rack sits to one side so if I center my wheel there's actually not enough threads on the passenger side.

[Mechie3]

I have rack extenders that fit the newer style racks (larger thread, M14? M16? Can't remember).

[FFRSpec72]

Does anyone have a sketch with dimensions of what they're looking for?

Here you go, I'm not 100% sure of measurements yet, others will chime in as they may have the Baer stud to get exact measurements from, but this is what it would look like, so if we had this stud you can then use the M14 Heim red ends ( https://www.summitracing.com/search/...rder=Ascending )
and a M14 sleeve (http://www.moog-suspension-parts.com/moog-es460s) with RH and LH threads
and 2" 14mm spacer ( http://www.ebay.com/itm/Metric-Steel...item19f2f5b981 )

BumpSteerStud.png
A - 1.550
C - 4.904
E - 2.75
F - 0.675
H - 0.875
L - 0.620
Taper Angle - 7 degrees
Thread 1 - 9/16-18
Thread 2 - M14
Housing Material: 4130 Chrome Moly

Stud Material: Grade 8 Equivalent

[Zach34]

Wow this escalated quickly. The pinto rod from Speedway (search "91636055") does indeed fit. I initially bought the Baer kit, then added the pinto adapter to get more adjustment length. I'm still not sure it's going to be long enough. I did raise my rack a little bit, too.

The picture is just a mock-up. Don't mind the spacer stack - just temporary. I will likely need a longer rod end or adjustment sleeve. The engagement is minimal with the Baer sleeves and the toe temporarily set by eyeball.

baer pinto.jpg

[Mechie3]

Stud Material: Grade 8 Equivalent

I spent some time this morning and last night looking up grade 8. I don't have access to the SAE standard (not paying $70 for it), but the generic specs of Grade 8

SAE J429 Grade 8
Tensile Strength: 150,000 PSI minimum
Proof Strength: 120,000 PSI
Yield Strength: 130,000 PSI minimum
Hardness: HRC 33-39

I can get 4142 (ETD-150) which has a strength of 130k. Grade 8 doesn't specify material, only those specs, which can be obtained through various material and heat treating combos. I don't have access to heat treating equipment (aside from a torch and bucket of oil which isn't very controlled). I could try to make some from the ETD-150.

there's also an argument that grade 8 should be rolled threads vs cut, but found conflicting information of "it's rolled because it's more economical" vs "it's rolled because it's stronger" and, from what I can tell, the SAE spec doesn't actually say.

[Hindsight]

Wow this escalated quickly. The pinto rod from Speedway (search "91636055") does indeed fit. I initially bought the Baer kit, then added the pinto adapter to get more adjustment length. I'm still not sure it's going to be long enough. I did raise my rack a little bit, too.

The picture is just a mock-up. Don't mind the spacer stack - just temporary. I will likely need a longer rod end or adjustment sleeve. The engagement is minimal with the Baer sleeves and the toe temporarily set by eyeball.

baer pinto.jpg

Thanks for sharing this. Does the taper fit perfectly snug in the spindle? It doesn't look like it is all the way in. That is what I was concerned about because the 7 degree angle matches the subaru, but the top and bottom diameters do not so while it might fight snugly in there, it doesn't go all the way in. I *guess* that might not be a problem.....

[FFRSpec72]

I spent some time this morning and last night looking up grade 8. I don't have access to the SAE standard (not paying $70 for it), but the generic specs of Grade 8

SAE J429 Grade 8
Tensile Strength: 150,000 PSI minimum
Proof Strength: 120,000 PSI
Yield Strength: 130,000 PSI minimum
Hardness: HRC 33-39

I can get 4142 (ETD-150) which has a strength of 130k. Grade 8 doesn't specify material, only those specs, which can be obtained through various material and heat treating combos. I don't have access to heat treating equipment (aside from a torch and bucket of oil which isn't very controlled). I could try to make some from the ETD-150.

there's also an argument that grade 8 should be rolled threads vs cut, but found conflicting information of "it's rolled because it's more economical" vs "it's rolled because it's stronger" and, from what I can tell, the SAE spec doesn't actually say.

From what I can find the 4130 and 4140 family of steel are very similar in chemical makeup. Can you get 4130 steel bar (chrome molly) as that is what the other studs are made out of. Either way it might be worth trying to make some, I would support your material purchase and time/effort. Need to find out from Hindsight the exact measurements of the baer stud. If you could duplicate that with a M14 stud and like 2.75" long that should allow folks to build their own bump steer kit cheaper and less work.

So let me know what you need to get a prototype done.

[FFRSpec72]

I will likely need a longer rod end or adjustment sleeve. The engagement is minimal with the Baer sleeves and the toe temporarily set by eyeball.

baer pinto.jpg

So what is the length of the thread on the Baer rod end and the length of the sleeve that they provide ?

[Canadian818]

Perhaps we should start a new thread for this, maybe drum up some more interest. Like Tony, I'd be willing to pay early so there's little to no financial investment for Mechie.

[Mechie3]

From what I can find the 4130 and 4140 family of steel are very similar in chemical makeup. Can you get 4130 steel bar (chrome molly) as that is what the other studs are made out of. Either way it might be worth trying to make some, I would support your material purchase and time/effort. Need to find out from Hindsight the exact measurements of the baer stud. If you could duplicate that with a M14 stud and like 2.75" long that should allow folks to build their own bump steer kit cheaper and less work.

So let me know what you need to get a prototype done.

Non heat treated 4130 only has a 60ksi strength vs the 130 of ETD 4140 (basically a heat treated machinable 4140). I don't know if 4130 is available pre heat treated (and if it can be machined easily after treating) and I can't heat treat it myself. 4140ETD looks to be reasonably priced.

[FFRSpec72]

Non heat treated 4130 only has a 60ksi strength vs the 130 of ETD 4140 (basically a heat treated machinable 4140). I don't know if 4130 is available pre heat treated (and if it can be machined easily after treating) and I can't heat treat it myself. 4140ETD looks to be reasonably priced.

Lets give it a try, PM me and tell me what you need

[STiPWRD]

Perhaps we should start a new thread for this, maybe drum up some more interest. Like Tony, I'd be willing to pay early so there's little to no financial investment for Mechie.

+1 for starting a new thread, I'd be interested.

As this is a critical application, it's vital that we do our homework - Mechie3 is off to a good start. There are several variants of heat treatable alloys out there depending on what sort of strength, ductility, corrosion resistance, etc. you need. I once had to design some very high strength pins for a space application so we chose to grind them out of O1 tool steel and then heat treat them. Once heat treated, these material can be very strong but can also get brittle and I don't know what sort of loads are placed on the rod ends during racing.

Just for kicks, I looked up what ARP makes their head studs (for an EJ257 block) out of and it's 8740 nickel chrome moly alloy (152 ksi yield, 167 ksi ultimate). I believe they roll their threads instead of cutting them. There are many options out there.

I'd suggest getting a machine shop to do the heat treating and hardness testing to verify the ultimate strength.