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Thread: FFRSpec72 818R Build Seattle WA

  1. #841
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt.Gator View Post
    Oh man the turbo! Sorry to see that.
    I assume the bearing went, which means you have metal shavings in your engine oil. You'll need to pull the oil pan off and check for excessive glitter. You know what happens from there.....
    Gator, would then oil filter prevent the glitter from getting back into the engine?
    Bob
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
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  2. #842
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt.Gator View Post
    Oh man the turbo! Sorry to see that.
    I assume the bearing went, which means you have metal shavings in your engine oil. You'll need to pull the oil pan off and check for excessive glitter. You know what happens from there.....
    I don't know if that is what happened, the water side has all the damage, so not sure what if any went in the oil, I would think there would be some prevention to keep that from happening as I surely hop my engine is not gone.
    Tony Nadalin
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
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  3. #843
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    Gator, would then oil filter prevent the glitter from getting back into the engine?
    Bob
    That is the theory. In practice it often results in a destroyed engine (sometime down the road). The sooner you catch it the better and less likely the engine is hurt. Some guys on their street cars keep driving thru the pre-catastrophic symptoms which results in trashed engine bearings.

    Quote Originally Posted by FFRSpec72 View Post
    I don't know if that is what happened, the water side has all the damage, so not sure what if any went in the oil, I would think there would be some prevention to keep that from happening as I surely hop my engine is not gone.
    It's probably fine. But you'll want to pull the pan and check it both for Alum glitter and run a magnet around in it for steel. Then cut the oil filter open and unfold it for a close look. Then decide what the next course is.

    There's a Blown Turbo Wiki at the LGT forum that covers all this: http://legacygt.com/forums/showthrea...ki-173358.html


    The general rule of thumb is if the engine blows you have to re-build the turbo too. If the tubo fails you may have to rebuild the engine.

    There's one guy on the LGT forum that does a super job rebuilding turbos, I can PM you his info. I have one of his custom rebuilds on my Spec B.
    Last edited by Sgt.Gator; 04-30-2017 at 01:08 AM.
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  4. #844
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    So don't know if I should buy new or rebuild as this turbo crap is all new to me and I hate replacing things, now I know why my challenge car runs and runs, come in from a race and do nothing except fuel and tires and back out, none of this turbo crap
    Tony Nadalin
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  5. #845
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    Sorry Tony, I know the turbo stuff is frustrating. A lot more to deal with and go wrong. There are advantages obviously but I know most road racers prefer NA for reliability/simplicity. I think you've just had some bad luck though..... this isn't the norm. I've run 7 track days now on my setup with no issues (knock on wood) other than a cooling system that is just borderline cutting it.

    If I was in your position, I would get a NEW oil hose and a new turbo. Probably a dom 1.5 or a 16g or 18g depending on how much power you want.

    Remind me: Is your engine new or used as from the donor? Same question about the turbo.

  6. #846
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    Sorry Tony, I know the turbo stuff is frustrating. A lot more to deal with and go wrong. There are advantages obviously but I know most road racers prefer NA for reliability/simplicity. I think you've just had some bad luck though..... this isn't the norm. I've run 7 track days now on my setup with no issues (knock on wood) other than a cooling system that is just borderline cutting it.

    If I was in your position, I would get a NEW oil hose and a new turbo. Probably a dom 1.5 or a 16g or 18g depending on how much power you want.

    Remind me: Is your engine new or used as from the donor? Same question about the turbo.
    Running a JDM EJ207v7 with 31,000 miles, all stock, except the dry sump, the current turbo is a VF30
    Tony Nadalin
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
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  7. #847
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    Ok thanks. I agree with Gator's suggestion to pull the oil pan and check for shavings and empty any of them out that you find. That turbine looks thrashed so you might find bits of it in there. It's very easy to pull the pan and replace it. Looks to me like the turbo bearing failed which took the seal out with it. Since the oil drains from the turbo back into the oil pan, the screen on the oil pan pickup and the oil filter should filter out any particles.

    There shouldn't be any risk in having the turbo rebuilt, if it even can be. If you are really trying to save money, you can show a rebuilder that pic and ask them if it can be rebuilt and if so, how much it would cost. Otherwise I'd just get a new turbo and new oil hose and you'll probably be good to go. Just ensure the turbo oil drain line is not blocked, the turbo coolant lines are good, and the vac lines to the wastegate are good, tight, secure, and won't melt. You should be good. You should be able to do all that inside a single Sunday (including oil pan inspection).

  8. #848
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    Ok thanks. I agree with Gator's suggestion to pull the oil pan and check for shavings and empty any of them out that you find. That turbine looks thrashed so you might find bits of it in there. It's very easy to pull the pan and replace it. Looks to me like the turbo bearing failed which took the seal out with it. Since the oil drains from the turbo back into the oil pan, the screen on the oil pan pickup and the oil filter should filter out any particles.

    There shouldn't be any risk in having the turbo rebuilt, if it even can be. If you are really trying to save money, you can show a rebuilder that pic and ask them if it can be rebuilt and if so, how much it would cost. Otherwise I'd just get a new turbo and new oil hose and you'll probably be good to go. Just ensure the turbo oil drain line is not blocked, the turbo coolant lines are good, and the vac lines to the wastegate are good, tight, secure, and won't melt. You should be good. You should be able to do all that inside a single Sunday (including oil pan inspection).
    Since I'm running a dry sump I gather I should drain oil then check the dry sump tank and if I find anything I will pull the dry sump pan otherwise I will clean out tank, have the intercooler flushed, put turbo on and fill with oil and ready to go.
    Tony Nadalin
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
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  9. #849
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    I'm thinking of a VF43 since it has a thrust bearing.
    Tony Nadalin
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
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  10. #850
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    That sounds like a good plan Tony. I forgot you had a dry sump. My only concern with the dry sump would be whether or not the filter is before or after the pump. I wouldn't want any metal fragments going through the pump.

    Good luck and keep us posted!

  11. #851
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    That sounds like a good plan Tony. I forgot you had a dry sump. My only concern with the dry sump would be whether or not the filter is before or after the pump. I wouldn't want any metal fragments going through the pump.

    Good luck and keep us posted!
    Filter is after the pump, so I will take that off and cut it open also
    Tony Nadalin
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
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    FFR MkII Challenge Car, Spec Racer, Street Legal, SCCA, ICSCC and NASA Racing
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  12. #852
    I have a very, very, nice re-built 18G. When Tony's sure he doesn't want it I'll post it up in the classifieds here. Meanwhile he gets first shot at it since we race in the same conference together.
    Owner: Colonel Red Racing
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  13. #853
    Hi: I am not sure of the details, but my dry sump returns from the oil pan on two suction lines then a pressure line through the oil coolers and back to the reservoir, which supplies by gravity to the intake of the engine oil pump/filter. So....If Tony's system is similar to mine, is there a chance that there is tramp metal in the dry sump pump that got there when it was scavenged from the oil pan after it left the turbo? I know that I am having my dry sump pump rebuilt after the cam shaft seizure. Price quote was about $200 all in.

  14. #854
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob T View Post
    Hi: I am not sure of the details, but my dry sump returns from the oil pan on two suction lines then a pressure line through the oil coolers and back to the reservoir, which supplies by gravity to the intake of the engine oil pump/filter. So....If Tony's system is similar to mine, is there a chance that there is tramp metal in the dry sump pump that got there when it was scavenged from the oil pan after it left the turbo? I know that I am having my dry sump pump rebuilt after the cam shaft seizure. Price quote was about $200 all in.
    Rob,
    Interesting yours is set up that way. My dry sump is 2 scavenge lines from pan to 2 scavenge pumps, then to the tank. Bottom of tank feeds OEM oil pump. output of oil pump goes through big filter and cooler and then back to engine bearings.

    Either way the filter should protect metal magic dust from getting to the engine bearings. IMHO.
    Good luck Tony,
    Bob
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
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  15. #855
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    So the cause of the failure was a broken shaft, the exhaust side of shaft broke, not yet sure why, still looking into that, but the good part was that the compressor side stopped spinning so little went into engine and there was no chunks of fins or other debris from the turbo. as all fins are intact just bent and the VF30 uses thrust bearing so no ball bouncing around in there either.
    Tony Nadalin
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
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  16. #856
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    Tony, sounds like the damage may be restricted to the Turbo failure, fingers crossed. A suggestion it might be worth flushing the oil lines that feed and the return from the turbo. turbo oil starvation could be a potential cause, just a thought.
    Last edited by Mitch Wright; 05-02-2017 at 10:39 AM.

  17. #857
    There are screens in the pan on the suction lines, so little bits if any will make it to the drysump pump. We lost everything when the rod went, and the engine ran for a 10-154 seconds after. we found nothing in the lines, nothing in the tank, just in the pan.
    Personally, I would just get a new turbo, or good rebuilt one that you can drop in and go. Rebuild you old one as a spare if you want, but I would want to go through the housings to check for damage before wasting time on it.
    We have had no luck with our car either, yet we soldier on in the hopes of better times to come.

  18. #858
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetroRacing View Post
    There are screens in the pan on the suction lines, so little bits if any will make it to the drysump pump. We lost everything when the rod went, and the engine ran for a 10-154 seconds after. we found nothing in the lines, nothing in the tank, just in the pan.
    Personally, I would just get a new turbo, or good rebuilt one that you can drop in and go. Rebuild you old one as a spare if you want, but I would want to go through the housings to check for damage before wasting time on it.
    We have had no luck with our car either, yet we soldier on in the hopes of better times to come.
    I will either buy a new turbo or a quality rebuilt one, the problem is deciding on which one, VF34, VF43, 18G or some other one, as I'm not looking for an aggressive one that requires a ton of boost as I looking for one that can deliver consistent smooth power that won't over tax my stock JDM EJ207v7 engine
    Tony Nadalin
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
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  19. #859
    That's as good as it could be given the circumstances. Glad to hear that it could be less intensive of a rebuild as initially anticipated.

  20. #860
    I have a VF28 that you can borrow while you make a decision, It's our spare, but I can bring it with us to Portland this weekend (testing our EP cars on Friday).

  21. #861
    Every once in a while we debate here on the forum about whether we really have to replace the oil cooler and other things to do if your engine blew and you are rebuilding. Here's the answer from OutFront Motorsports, along with more good info:

    "Thank you for purchasing a Short block from Outfront Motorsports, if your engine is equipped with an oil cooler and the short block was replaced because of rod, main or turbo bearing failure, the oil cooler must be replaced, as there may be debris trapped in the cooler that won’t release until it is subjected to both high oil pressure and heat. These coolers cost around $260 new. If a warrantee arises due to bearing failure, we will request a copy of the cooler purchase.

    If your engine is equipped with a turbo: a bad/blown turbo can send debris into the crankcase and oiling system. Make sure to clean the turbo drain/feed hoses and nipples before installation.

    If the short block was replaced because of piston failure, cracking or melting, the intake manifold, exhaust manifolds and cylinder ports must be cleaned and free of debris. Remove the throttle body from the intake to access and clean the plenum of the intake. We have seen particles that have blown from one side of the engine through the intake and lodge itself in the plenum or opposite side intake runners, only to be consumed by the new engine upon start up.

    We recommend an oil pump of at least a #10 found in the upper left corner of the pump when looking at it. Do not use #7 or #9 pumps. The number refers to the millimeter thickness of the gears inside. On high performance engines, oil pressure will generally be lower at idle than stock engines as we have enlarged the bearing clearances for sustained higher engine RPM operation. If your engine is supplied with high performance pistons, oil consumption can possibly be higher than normal due to a larger piston to cylinder wall clearance used, this consumption could be up to 1 quart per 800 miles. As a standard our motors do not see this type of oil consumption but this is the Subaru spec. If your engine was rebuilt with stock style pistons, oil consumption of up to one quart per 1200 miles is considered within spec, per Subaru’s’ warranty policy 8.4.29.
    Owner: Colonel Red Racing
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  22. #862
    Quote Originally Posted by Sgt.Gator View Post
    Every once in a while we debate here on the forum about whether we really have to replace the oil cooler and other things to do if your engine blew and you are rebuilding. Here's the answer from OutFront Motorsports, along with more good info:

    "Thank you for purchasing a Short block from Outfront Motorsports, if your engine is equipped with an oil cooler and the short block was replaced because of rod, main or turbo bearing failure, the oil cooler must be replaced, as there may be debris trapped in the cooler that won’t release until it is subjected to both high oil pressure and heat. These coolers cost around $260 new. If a warrantee arises due to bearing failure, we will request a copy of the cooler purchase.

    If your engine is equipped with a turbo: a bad/blown turbo can send debris into the crankcase and oiling system. Make sure to clean the turbo drain/feed hoses and nipples before installation.

    If the short block was replaced because of piston failure, cracking or melting, the intake manifold, exhaust manifolds and cylinder ports must be cleaned and free of debris. Remove the throttle body from the intake to access and clean the plenum of the intake. We have seen particles that have blown from one side of the engine through the intake and lodge itself in the plenum or opposite side intake runners, only to be consumed by the new engine upon start up.

    We recommend an oil pump of at least a #10 found in the upper left corner of the pump when looking at it. Do not use #7 or #9 pumps. The number refers to the millimeter thickness of the gears inside. On high performance engines, oil pressure will generally be lower at idle than stock engines as we have enlarged the bearing clearances for sustained higher engine RPM operation. If your engine is supplied with high performance pistons, oil consumption can possibly be higher than normal due to a larger piston to cylinder wall clearance used, this consumption could be up to 1 quart per 800 miles. As a standard our motors do not see this type of oil consumption but this is the Subaru spec. If your engine was rebuilt with stock style pistons, oil consumption of up to one quart per 1200 miles is considered within spec, per Subaru’s’ warranty policy 8.4.29.
    I totally agree. For Porsche's, we would send our coolers out to get ultrasonically cleaned by an Airplane Service shop. Our coolers were much more expensive, so just buying a new one for the 818 would probably be cheaper.
    Thanks- Chad
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  23. #863
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    New Bloush turbo on the way an 16G-XT-R as the tuner thought this would be just right for ST2/3 given my weight and tracks I run on. I also went with Perrin E4 Headers and up pipe and most likely keep the stock injectors if the tune comes out not needing more power.
    Last edited by FFRSpec72; 05-15-2017 at 01:01 PM.
    Tony Nadalin
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
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  24. #864
    Good to hear it's going back together. I'm interested to see if the Perrin headers hang below the frame. I'm sticking with the stock manifolds for now because when I have asked people who sell them about how far they hang down below the head, the only reply they can give me is "it fits a 200x WRX" (and I have other things to spend money on right now).
    818R Build date 10/31/15

  25. #865
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielsDM View Post
    Good to hear it's going back together. I'm interested to see if the Perrin headers hang below the frame. I'm sticking with the stock manifolds for now because when I have asked people who sell them about how far they hang down below the head, the only reply they can give me is "it fits a 200x WRX" (and I have other things to spend money on right now).
    So the Perrin E4 tuck up under frame very very nicely, no issues as I can put on the belly pan, they are well designed and cause no interference issues with my setup (dry sump, remote oil filter/cooler). I will post a picture soon.
    Tony Nadalin
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
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  26. #866
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    Nice! So now that's two people who have confirmed those headers stay above the frame. Great info.

  27. #867
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FFRSpec72 View Post
    So the Perrin E4 tuck up under frame very very nicely, no issues as I can put on the belly pan, they are well designed and cause no interference issues with my setup (dry sump, remote oil filter/cooler). I will post a picture soon.
    Tony
    How much clearance between the header and the frame in front of the engine?
    Thanks
    Bob
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
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  28. #868
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    Tony
    How much clearance between the header and the frame in front of the engine?
    Thanks
    Bob
    Bob, I have a good 2" between the further most header tube and the frame, here are a few pictures. The headers are about a 1/4" above the bottom of the 2x2 frame bar which allows the belly pan to go on.

    9463CA68-27AC-4A50-9DE4-23C23B86C09B.jpg 16EDD347-A494-4EF6-B5AF-A059AF94AA65.jpg 949EB6AC-39F1-414F-B2DD-625C997BD234.jpg 2A50C3D6-325E-48FB-8487-B7F2AB1C09D0.jpg
    Last edited by FFRSpec72; 05-17-2017 at 10:57 AM.
    Tony Nadalin
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
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    FFR MkII Challenge Car, Spec Racer, Street Legal, SCCA, ICSCC and NASA Racing
    818R Build in progress

  29. #869
    Perfect!!! We ceramic coated and wrapped the header , can't wait to see how that helps under bonnet temps.

  30. #870
    Thanks for the info.
    818R Build date 10/31/15

  31. #871
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    This turbo crap is no fun, have to replace the turbo inlet tube as the old one is dry rotted, it was no fun getting the tube out, not much room and hoses are like hard as rock, not flexing. Now to get a new turbo inlet tube ... more money more money
    Tony Nadalin
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
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  32. #872
    done yet!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  33. #873
    That's exactly why we didn't stay stock. that stuff drives me crazy...

  34. #874
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Too much metal in the dry sump tank oil when I drained it, so out comes engine as I want to keep the block. So don't know if I will get a replacement EJ207v7 and drop it in and rebuild the current one or just rebuild the current one. F*&^ !
    Tony Nadalin
    2015 SCCA Oregon Region VP3 Champion
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  35. #875
    We have our block down in Bellingham getting rebuilt. Nice guys, build some crazy stuff. Are you close to Bellingham?

  36. #876
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetroRacing View Post
    We have our block down in Bellingham getting rebuilt. Nice guys, build some crazy stuff. Are you close to Bellingham?
    I'm about 45-60 min away, as I'm looking for a decent Subaru engine guy that can get me back on the track.
    Tony Nadalin
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  37. #877
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    Sorry Tony!!

  38. #878
    Email [email protected], pronounced "Yohan" and tell him Jeff at Retro sent you. He's a really good guy, asked for us to send him our complete flywheel-clutch-front pulley with bolt to balance with the rotating assembly. He is building us a stage 3 short-block for us to mount our heads to. http://www.nwrallysports.com/

    Cant wait to get it in the car and on the dyno!

  39. #879
    Quote Originally Posted by FFRSpec72 View Post
    Too much metal in the dry sump tank oil when I drained it, so out comes engine as I want to keep the block. So don't know if I will get a replacement EJ207v7 and drop it in and rebuild the current one or just rebuild the current one. F*&^ !
    Sorry to hear this. Having been thru this four times in four years I feel your pain!

    Generally for stock power levels the cheapest and most reliable solution is to buy a new factory shortblock. It should run you around $1,900 shipped. MSRP is $2,191 but most dealerships will do better than that. Heuberger is the largest dealer in the US and ships anywhere. And I can get you a price from my sponsor, but frankly it's about the same as Heuberger charges when you throw in shipping.

    Re-building the engine using your current heads and a new shortblock is pretty easy to do yourself. Figure about $5,000 all in for parts if you do the assembly yourself.. That's getting the heads decked and new valves. New oil cooler. New AVCS actuators and AVCS cam gears (or having Outfront rebuild them). Master gasket kit. Replace most if not all the water, oil, and vacuum hoses. New cam buckets. New timing belt. New OEM water pump and oil pump. ARP headstuds is always a good idea at this point. And you need a new or rebuilt turbo, so add that too.

    To give you an idea here's the parts list from when I rebuilt my 2008 Spec B EJ257: http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost....3&postcount=97 Not in this list are the new AVCS cam gears that I had to put in later because my original ones were stuck with goo from the blown engine.

    From our past discussions I know you want to stick to stock power levels and I think that's a great idea. But if you want to up the power anything over 300WHP you should consider a pro built short block form IAG; Rallispec; or Outfront. I've just put a full race Rallispec in my STI.
    Owner: Colonel Red Racing
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  40. #880
    We failed in our first rebuild attempt, don't know for sure yet, but I think it was because we didn't check bearing clearances on the mains (which takes 4-5 times torqueing the engine, pulling it apart) to get it just right.

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