FFRSpec72 818R Build Seattle WA

[Frank818]

Is the line learking or the fitting? If it's either or you just need to change the line and you're done, no need for a new cooler altogether.

[FFRSpec72]

Is the line learking or the fitting? If it's either or you just need to change the line and you're done, no need for a new cooler altogether.

Agree, just have to find someone that can make or get me a line by this Thursday..

[Hindsight]

Found a 3" to 4" adapter so finished up my vents and intake to the intercooler

Attachment 57526 Attachment 57528 Attachment 57529 Attachment 57530

Cool side scoop manifold. Did you fabricate that yourself out of fiberglass?

[FFRSpec72]

Cool side scoop manifold. Did you fabricate that yourself out of fiberglass?

It's fiberglass, these are some factory five prototypes that I'm giving feedback on.

[Hindsight]

Very cool! I'm sure you didn't think they would go un-noticed when you posted that pic up haha.

[Sgt.Gator]

Agree, just have to find someone that can make or get me a line by this Thursday..

Tony I'll be at PIR Friday morning. I can bring my AN tools, lines, fittings and we can make you one in about 15 minutes . Or send me the exact length and I can make one for you today and ship it overnight.
Is that -10AN line? Send me pics of both ends and the overall length including fittings.

[FFRSpec72]

Tony I'll be at PIR Friday morning. I can bring my AN tools, lines, fittings and we can make you one in about 15 minutes . Or send me the exact length and I can make one for you today and ship it overnight.
Is that -10AN line? Send me pics of both ends and the overall length including fittings.

I found someone to make a line for me, so should pick it up today. If you could bring some AN10 line and female ends just in case that would be awesome. Looks like I will arrive Friday AM at the track (I will leave Seattle early Friday Morning). If I can make it through the day on Friday I will run either the NOVICE race (low key) or Group 4 ITE, depends on the car and how safe I feel driving it.

I will be running about 230 rwhp (detuned) to bring me into the 10:1, on a very conservative tune the car was putting out 290 rwhp so that would have put me in below the 8:1

[Mechie3]

It's fiberglass, these are some factory five prototypes that I'm giving feedback on.

Nice! It's what I've always said the solution should have been (seal scoops, sealed TMIC) but didn't have the fab skills to do myself. One of the Subaru rally cars I saw had a radiator in the back and they used these massive 6"+ hoses. Not sure how the thermal load of an IC compares to that of a radiator offhand. Let us know how they work!

[RetroRacing]

We have a ton of fittings as well, between us all, we should have you covered. We will be there Thursday night getting set up.

[Frank818]

Looks like your leak is fixed, Tony.

[Sgt.Gator]

I'll bring a GoPro with a suction mount and some yarn for aero testing on your scoops. Here's what I learned on my STI a couple of months ago:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost....9&postcount=56
and
http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost....4&postcount=57

[FFRSpec72]

I'll bring a GoPro with a suction mount and some yarn for aero testing on your scoops. Here's what I learned on my STI a couple of months ago:

http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost....9&postcount=56
and
http://legacygt.com/forums/showpost....4&postcount=57

I can't view these (requires account), make sure you bring some tape unless you want to hold on to the yarn as I drive ?

[Sgt.Gator]

I can't view these (requires account), make sure you bring some tape unless you want to hold on to the yarn as I drive ?

LOL!
I'll repost them here.
<<<>>>
The aero test day at ORP went great. Except that I couldn't find my manometer Friday. It should have been in my Data tool box, the accessory hoses and the instructions were there, but no instrument. That drives me nuts!

So I used the old school yarn, tape, and camera. There were some amazing discoveries.

First I setup the camera to try to capture what was going on with the brake ducts. That didn't work too well, but on reviewing the video I noticed the yarn that should have been flowing into the lower radiator opening was not most of the time. It was flowing sideways left, sideways right and a every once in awhile backwards! It only flowed straight in at speeds over 80 mph!



Whoa! This needs more investigation! So I moved the camera over to capture the entire front:


OK, clearly the lower radiator has air flow has issues. A great deal of the time the center tufts, directly in front of the center radiator brace, are flowing backwards. And the tufts on the side are not always flowing in too.

Suspecting this reverse flow is at least partly caused by the TMIC Scoop over-pressurizing the engine bay we taped up the TMIC scoop and I went out for 1 lap doing my best to stay out of boost, but still hit 80 mph a couple of times. Check out the flow with the TMIC scoop taped shut:



A 100% improvement!

I'm not showing the pics of the upper grille flow because it worked fine the whole time. It's only the lower grille that has this problem.

So it looks like an FMIC or AWIC is in my future if I want to get rid of the TMIC scoop not just for aero drag but cooling too.

[Sgt.Gator]

I also did the testing on the rear window, trunk lid, and wing. More surprises!





The airflow wraps around the rear window pillars and is angling across the rear window from the sides (expected behavior).

But they seem to be colliding in the middle and forcing the boundary layer to flow backwards, right up the center of the window! I never would have thought that could happen! Unreal. Another holy cow, I never would have thought moment!

I guess those EVO Vortex Generators actually have a purpose! Subaru offers them now as an SPT part for 2008-2014 STI and WRX. E751SFG300

[FFRSpec72]

Would be good to test the side IC vents, radiator intake/exit, rear spoiler and rear deck area and vents. I should look like the yarn monster out there if it makes it that far

[RetroRacing]

Bring extra yarn.

Make sure it's fire retardant, it's going to be a scorcher.

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm working on a Cool Shirt backpack complete with cooler, pump, and 12v battery!

[Mitch Wright]

Tony, good luck with your shakedown. More important is have fun, looking forward to your report.

[FFRSpec72]

Tony, good luck with your shakedown. More important is have fun, looking forward to your report.

It will be fun to compare the 2 cars and see what works and what did not. I'm not used to the turbo boost kick, as I was doping some pulls in 3rd (for some tuning readings) I get this initial pull and then around 4k I get this blast of power, kind of scary power on the street. I just hope that everything holds together or we can fix what goes wrong and we can have some fun track time

[FFRSpec72]

Bad/sad day at the track, I meet Jeff (retroracing) at the track, and we went out for 1st session, my car would not go over 80moh (4-5k), engine would start to run rich (blowing black smoke out the exhaust, like LOTS) and start to stumble, so could get it up to about 80mph when I ease the throttle.

So with limited speed, and 100+ degrees out, my engine temps were right at 180, and oil temps were under 200, no leaks, no other issues but again I was not going over 80mph. So I did get to practice going as fast as I could into turns, the car handled well, lost of grip and breaking power.

Jeff had some electrical issue, so my car became a donor as he had to borrow my alternator assemble, he seems to be back up and running now and will do a small endure, I left track last night since nothing I could do. So will have to see how Jeff makes out today.

Also a big thanks to Sgt.Gator for coming out and helping.

I did get my log book and they did have some issues with the roll cage, mainly being the 2x2 rear hoop and how the supports were welded to it and the ends being open, they still passed but they were not happy and asked that I address these issues.

[Hindsight]

Thanks for the report - sorry you weren't able to use the car to its fullest. Such is racing a newly built car though. Have you had a tune on it yet? Do you think it was a tune issue or maybe a bad ground or something? Sounds more like a tune issue.

Can you tell me more about the roll cage issue. What do you mean by "2x2 hoop"? And what was the issue with how the supports are welded to it? The only thing I thought was open was the square tubing on the upper part of the frame that the roll bar welds to..... the square tube frame is open at the ends, but I thought all the round rollbar components were fully welded shut. I'm asking because tonight, I will be cutting my "S" rollbar off and will be fabricating a new one that looks like an "R" tomorrow, in prep for my coming HPDE weekend. Any input would be appreciated. I'm thinking about trying to do what FFR did on the S with the rear support bars so I don't have to cut the engine cover like you do on the R but I'm on the fence as to whether doing it that way will provide enough support.

[C.Plavan]

NASA had the same issue with my rollcage, that I documented my first time out. Supposedly NASA called FFR and never got anywhere.

As for your engine issues. Do you have the VSS (vehicle speed sensor) disabled with the Cobb? Is the VSS even hooked up? That sounds like the issue to me, and it puts the motor into safe mode.

[FFRSpec72]

NASA had the same issue with my rollcage, that I documented my first time out. Supposedly NASA called FFR and never got anywhere.

As for your engine issues. Do you have the VSS (vehicle speed sensor) disabled with the Cobb? Is the VSS even hooked up? That sounds like the issue to me, and it puts the motor into safe mode.

VSS is hooked up as speedo is working, seems like the positive battery terminal was loose, one of those flat end terminals that has a screw into battery post, the screw was half way out, so did a few pulls this morning and all seems ok, having folks look over the logs as I had my wide band also running.

They gave me a roll cage stamp but cautioned me on this issue. There is also a diagonal 1x1 that come up to the 2x2 on the side, well that is welded like a half inch down from the top of the 2x2 and they did not like that either. I assume that they also passed retroracing (Jeff) cage as they were going to look at that this morning

[FFRSpec72]

818Frame.jpg

Thanks for the report - sorry you weren't able to use the car to its fullest. Such is racing a newly built car though. Have you had a tune on it yet? Do you think it was a tune issue or maybe a bad ground or something? Sounds more like a tune issue.

Can you tell me more about the roll cage issue. What do you mean by "2x2 hoop"? And what was the issue with how the supports are welded to it? The only thing I thought was open was the square tubing on the upper part of the frame that the roll bar welds to..... the square tube frame is open at the ends, but I thought all the round rollbar components were fully welded shut. I'm asking because tonight, I will be cutting my "S" rollbar off and will be fabricating a new one that looks like an "R" tomorrow, in prep for my coming HPDE weekend. Any input would be appreciated. I'm thinking about trying to do what FFR did on the S with the rear support bars so I don't have to cut the engine cover like you do on the R but I'm on the fence as to whether doing it that way will provide enough support.

Here is what I was told during the cage inspection last night, my cage still passed but they were not all that happy, they let it go because cars in NASA had already had cages approved

818Frame.jpg

[Hindsight]

Thanks for the detail. That does make sense.

[FFRSpec72]

Thanks for the detail. That does make sense.

I'm sure they will hound me until I do something about it, so will most likely just weld in a inch or so of solid tubing in each end.

[Zach34]

Thanks for posting the picture of the frame issues. I was confused about the diagonal you were talking about until I saw that.

So, as I understand you, they were fine with the square tube, they just didn't like that it was open on the ends? I remember seeing Chad's post about the issue literally the day before I sent my frame out for powdercoat. I ran out and welded in two squares of 3/16" plate to close up the ends of the tube. Chad, did they highlight the issue with the diagonal piece, too? That could be fixed with a gusset pretty easily. I hate grinding off powder, though.

I think within the next year there will be enough feedback info floating around for a Mk II version of the 818 frame from FFR, but these two things could be fixed without modifying their jig.

[C.Plavan]

818Frame.jpg

Here is what I was told during the cage inspection last night, my cage still passed but they were not all that happy, they let it go because cars in NASA had already had cages approved

818Frame.jpg

Yep- Exactly the same thing NASA had the issue with. C'mon Factory Five. Fix it for safety sake.

[C.Plavan]

Thanks for posting the picture of the frame issues. I was confused about the diagonal you were talking about until I saw that.

So, as I understand you, they were fine with the square tube, they just didn't like that it was open on the ends? I remember seeing Chad's post about the issue literally the day before I sent my frame out for powdercoat. I ran out and welded in two squares of 3/16" plate to close up the ends of the tube. Chad, did they highlight the issue with the diagonal piece, too? That could be fixed with a gusset pretty easily. I hate grinding off powder, though.

I think within the next year there will be enough feedback info floating around for a Mk II version of the 818 frame from FFR, but these two things could be fixed without modifying their jig.

Like Tony said, the 2" bar will collapse in a roll over. Before welding the ends, I would find a round bar and insert it into the 2"x2" that fits snuggly and weld it in. Then weld covers over the ends of the bar. That will give you more protection from the 2"x2" crushing down. The rollcage is short enough, you cant afford any crushing distance.

They would of fixed their jig already if they wanted to. They don't care since they have been contacted before. Just plan on making your car safe yourself.

[Sgt.Gator]

It was great crewing with Tony and Retro even though both cars had issues. The negatives were that neither car ever completed an entire practice or qualifying session. And it was 103 degrees and sunny as heck which meant every time we tried to work on the cars they were red hot.

And why did FF put that cross bar exactly where it interferes with the Turbo IWG actuator arm? We had to notch out Tony's at the track to make sure that wouldn't cause problems. That was a fun job for Tony in 100+ weather using a die grinder over a red hot turbo!

I did get to do the test fit in Tony's car. I can say absolutely I would never pass the broomstick test with the FF oem R rear roll hoop and front roll hoop. If I want to build and race one of these I would certainly want a 2" taller rear hoop, and the front hoop would have to come up out of the dash and go across about 4-6" inches above the dash/cowl top. I imagine using a shorty lexan windscreen to fill the gap. Or go full Miata MX-5 Cup car style halo/windshield as I've posted before.

Here's the SCCA rule for open top cars.SCCA GCR Helmet Cage.jpg

[Zach34]

Gator, I hear you. Let's see, here's what I've done so far to the frame:

-Completely cut out and restructured the entire floor to lower the seats (so my head clears the rollbar) and slightly raise the floor (even with the top of the perimeter 1.5" tubes now) for a more comfortable seating position

-Completely restructured the footbox area to push the Wilwood pedal box forward about 4 inches (I'm 6'3") and center the pedals on the steering column (FFR's position felt skewed to the right).

-Re-positioned the steering column mounts to center the column on the driver seat and make it not crooked (yes, in order to not require more adapting parts, FFR made the column very slightly crooked and off center - not any worse than the Roadster, though).

-Cut and welded in new structure under the 6-speed trans so that no awkward spacers are required to make it fit.

-Welded in tabs on either side of the transmission for bolting in a future wing support structure

Things I know I will do:

-Probably make an entirely new crossmember for the engine compartment. I'm going with a rotated turbo, the provided crossmember doesn't quite line up with the frame holes very well, and I want to incorporate the crossmember into the wing support structure.

-Fabricate a wing support structure (maybe coincident with the crossmember).

Things I might do:

-Add a gusset to the problem area pointed out above

-Add some rear impact protection (I'm contemplating a Porsche-like intercooler location behind the rear wheels)

That's an awful long list. Some of it was for comfort, but some is just necessary.

[Hindsight]

I can say absolutely I would never pass the broomstick test with the FF oem R rear roll hoop and front roll hoop. If I want to build and race one of these I would certainly want a 2" taller rear hoop, and the front hoop would have to come up out of the dash and go across about 4-6" inches above the dash/cowl top. I imagine using a shorty lexan windscreen to fill the gap. Or go full Miata MX-5 Cup car style halo/windshiled as I've posted before.

The "S" rollbar on mine was 13.25" above the square 2" frame bar. In order to pass the broom stick test using the top of the windshield as one point for the broom stick, my roll bar needs to be 19" high. That is almost 6" higher than the FFR "S" roll bar! And that is with my very thin racing bucket seats bolted so the bottom of them is pressing against the cross brace frame, as long as it can possibly go. I feel both the S and the R need taller rollbars. If I end up racing the 818 a lot, I will likely do the same thing you mentioned, which is to add a full halo cage with windshield bars and the whole works.

[FFRSpec72]

The "S" rollbar on mine was 13.25" above the square 2" frame bar. In order to pass the broom stick test using the top of the windshield as one point for the broom stick, my roll bar needs to be 19" high. That is almost 6" higher than the FFR "S" roll bar! And that is with my very thin racing bucket seats bolted so the bottom of them is pressing against the cross brace frame, as long as it can possibly go. I feel both the S and the R need taller rollbars. If I end up racing the 818 a lot, I will likely do the same thing you mentioned, which is to add a full halo cage with windshield bars and the whole works.

This winter I will most likely add a halo cage like on the challenge car, if the car is still running and I have money.

[FFRSpec72]

It was great crewing with Tony and Retro even though both cars had issues. The negatives were that neither car ever completed an entire practice or qualifying session. And it was 103 degrees and sunny as heck which meant every time we tried to work on the cars they were red hot.

And why did FF put that cross bar exactly where it interferes with the Turbo IWG actuator arm? We had to notch out Tony's at the track to make sure that wouldn't cause problems. That was a fun job for Tony in 100+ weather using a die grinder over a red hot turbo!

I did get to do the test fit in Tony's car. I can say absolutely I would never pass the broomstick test with the FF oem R rear roll hoop and front roll hoop. If I want to build and race one of these I would certainly want a 2" taller rear hoop, and the front hoop would have to come up out of the dash and go across about 4-6" inches above the dash/cowl top. I imagine using a shorty lexan windscreen to fill the gap. Or go full Miata MX-5 Cup car style halo/windshield as I've posted before.

Here's the SCCA rule for open top cars.

Gator, many thanks for coming out and helping this weekend as it was very much appreciated, sorry things did not go well as we would I have liked, but we did learn some lessons, but over all, my temps were good (but was not running it hard), car corners well, no issue with alignment (so far), no leaks, nothing fell off car (that I could tell)

[FFRSpec72]

So reviwing my logs from the track time, granted that I was not above 5K RPM and speed was not above 80mph, the IAT started at 140 on grid and went down to about 125 on track, the water tems started at 192 on grid (i have no fans) and was down to 180 on track (I have a 180 degree thermostat), the oil temps were at 120 at grid and did not go above 180 on track,

[STiPWRD]

It sounds like those FFR side scoops worked out well, any idea if they're going to be releasing them?

[C.Plavan]

It sounds like those FFR side scoops worked out well, any idea if they're going to be releasing them?

Remember it was only to 5K rpm. That is just cruising in a race car. I would hold out until he really winds it up.

Tony will you be installing a Dry Sump soon?

[RetroRacing]

Thanks again Tony for letting us borrow your alternator, we WILL return the favour some day!
We had to both remove the sliders and lower the seat by an inch to the floor, just to barely pass the broom stick test! Now, we are cutting and welding yet again to insure we have no further issues, but why did they not test this prior to building a RACECAR cage?

anyway, we installed caps in our frame ends, we at least that was ok. now we are concerned about shoulder belt angle with the seat so low.

please make it stop.

[Mitch Wright]

Retro, it a race car it never stops, that's part of the fun.

[C.Plavan]

Thanks again Tony for letting us borrow your alternator, we WILL return the favour some day!
We had to both remove the sliders and lower the seat by an inch to the floor, just to barely pass the broom stick test! Now, we are cutting and welding yet again to insure we have no further issues, but why did they not test this prior to building a RACECAR cage?

anyway, we installed caps in our frame ends, we at least that was ok. now we are concerned about shoulder belt angle with the seat so low.

please make it stop.

Since I had a Racetech seat, they sold a shorter seat pad. It lowered me over 1"- I would just remove your seat pad in the OMP and run minimal padding.