FFRSpec72 818R Build Seattle WA

[Scargo]

DanielsDM introduced a new word "fuel container" which I think has no place in this discussion as it muddies the water.

As said, NASA rules state a barrier is needed.
15.4 Fuel Cell / Tank
All fuel cells must be FIA FT3 (or higher) certified.
A fuel cell is not required, except as specified by class rules.. All vehicles having a fuel cell must comply with
the rules in this section, even if a fuel cell is not required by the class rules.
1. There should be a solid bulkhead completely separating the fuel tank, fuel pump, fuel cell, filler neck
hoses, and/or vent lines, from the driver compartment.

I'm not a tech guy either but I see the difference in the use of the word "tank" and "fuel cell". A "tank" denotes a stock tank in its stock location, which means it has a barrier intrinsic to the car, or as manufactured. I don't think DOT allows cars to be sold without a barrier being between the tank and passengers.
A "fuel cell", when not behind the stock barrier, or with exposed fittings and hoses, does not have a barrier if anything is exposed. Fuel could spray out into the cockpit from a line or fitting without a barrier. So, once you install a fuel cell in a non-stock location the barrier must be constructed.
My 2 cents.
I also agree that oil is often what catches fire and just hot oil can burn you severely. I am now going to enclose my Accusump and fittings (which is in the passenger floorboard area of my STi) because of this or move it back to the engine compartment.
I think it's a serious lapse of safety (for the participant) that I can run a almost race legal, prepared car at a "track day" or HPDE event without meeting some of the fire safety standards of NASA/SCCA racing.

[Mechie3]

I'm with Tony on this one regarding verbiage. I'm involved a lot with requirements writing for engineering development. All requirements are required to say "shall" or "must" not "should" or "may". The first two are requirements (shall/must) the second two are "nice to haves". Nice to haves are not requirements and thus, we don't document them.

[FFRSpec72]

I get where you're coming from on the verbiage. In some segments of military publications, "should" denotes something that is only strongly recommended (i.e. - you better follow it unless you have a good reason not to), and "shall" denotes something that must be done or adhered to no matter what. However, those terms are always defined in their specific use up front. NASA could probably change the wording here, but it's clear what their intent is, even though it says "should" - a firewall must be installed.

I mean really, think if you had a fuel leak at one of the fittings. If it ignites, you probably won't notice it until something on your body is on fire - not going to be able to pull the fire extinguisher fast enough - unless you have a firewall.

I don't think so as in 15.4 there is a MUST for FIA FT3 certification then there is the SHOULD for a bulkhead, the writers chose 2 different words to denote different meanings. SCCA actually defines the terms and what they mean in the writing, I believe NASA and other orgs use SCCA as their model for rules.

[RetroRacing]

Here is my take on this. A fuel cell is the bladder inside the can (steel or alum), so if you cover the fittings, the can is the bulkhead that seperates the fuel cell from the driver. We again, separated ours out of ease of install with another layer.

[C.Plavan]

Always error on the side of safety. I still dont understand why some people don't get that.

[DanielsDM]

DanielsDM introduced a new word "fuel container" which I think has no place in this discussion as it muddies the water.

I apologize if you think I muddied the water. My intent is to clarify that the bladder (which actually contains the fuel) is the fuel cell and not the metal can which is commonly used to enclose it. Thus the can serves as the barrier between the fuel cell and the driver compartment. The fittings, lines, connections etc... "should" also have a barrier separating them from the driver compartment.

[FFRSpec72]

I apologize if you think I muddied the water. My intent is to clarify that the bladder (which actually contains the fuel) is the fuel cell and not the metal can which is commonly used to enclose it. Thus the can serves as the barrier between the fuel cell and the driver compartment. The fittings, lines, connections etc... "should" also have a barrier separating them from the driver compartment.

is your "should" = optional or your "should" = mandatory ?

[DanielsDM]

is your "should" = optional or your "should" = mandatory ?

I agree with you that the way the rule is written should = optional. But for a car I'm racing in it is mandatory.

[FFRSpec72]

I agree with you that the way the rule is written should = optional. But for a car I'm racing in it is mandatory.

I would also agree that I would want this in a car that I am racing (as I'm doing it), I just did not like the way the tech inspectors were forcing me on rules that did not require it.

[DanielsDM]

Fuel fires are really ugly. A miata spectacularly went up in flames at night during the 2009 25 Hours of Thunderhill. The driver was lucky to get out with only a few 3rd degree burns. https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/ar...fighting-fire/

[RetroRacing]

I was on track at the same time that happened, very scary! We considered wiring the kill switch to the fire pull, so that if you pull the fire system, it kills all electric in the car. People panic when fire is a threat, and sometimes forget to kill the car.

[FFRSpec72]

I finally received my OBDII to CAN bus cable for my Data Capture Pro, so now I feed the OBDII data from the Subaru ECU to the Data Capture Pro and display all the data I want/need, the cable from the ODBII port also serves as a power cable for the Data Capture Pro

WP_20161217_15_10_01_Rich_LI.jpg WP_20161217_15_04_58_Rich_LI.jpg

[DanielsDM]

Are you using Race Capture Pro for data logging? I've never heard of Data Capture Pro. I saw RCP came out with their OBDII to CAN bus bridge module.

[FFRSpec72]

Are you using Race Capture Pro for data logging? I've never heard of Data Capture Pro. I saw RCP came out with their OBDII to CAN bus bridge module.

Yes I am using RCP for logging and for potential display on tablet. Their OBDII to CAN bus works great, the bus speed seems to be fine

[DanielsDM]

Yes I am using RCP for logging and for potential display on tablet. Their OBDII to CAN bus works great, the bus speed seems to be fine

Good to hear that the bus speed is acceptable. What parameters are you planning on logging from the OBDII port? I think I will direct wire a pulsed input for RPM instead of getting that from OBDII, this would free up bandwidth on the bus for other inputs.

[Sgt.Gator]

Tony this is great news, I can't wait to see how this works out for you. I love their endurance telemetry package so the pits can monitor the data in real time.

Until now I had dismissed RCP because they told me it wouldn't work with Pre 2008 Subaru SSM protocol. I even posted in their forum asking for updates because one other guy had made some mods to make it work for him using an Arduino:
ECU data from pre-canbus Subaru

Can you point me to the can bus bridge module? I see the adaptor cable on their website but not the module.

What I'd like to log off the Subaru ECU and into the RCP:
ECU_1 RPM RPM
ECU_2 SPEED Vehicle Speed
ECU_3 TPS Throttle Position Sensor
ECU_4 ECT Engine coolant temperature
ECU_5 TURBO_PRESS Turbo pressure
ECU_6 IN_VVT_R Right bank inlet timing
ECU_7 IN_VVT_L Left bank inlet timing
ECU_8 IGN_ADV Ignition advance
ECU_9 KNOCK_CORR Advances correction depending on detonation sensor
ECU_10 FUEL_LEV Fuel level
ECU_11 NEUTRAL Neutral sensor
ECU_12 CLUTCH Clutch disengaged signal
ECU_13 BRAKE Brake switch
ECU_14 ENG_LOAD Instant engine load
ECU_15 AIR_FLOW Air flow in the air pipes

I'm under the impression that the SSM protocol is too slow to log all these functions but at a minimum I want to log:
ECU_1 RPM RPM
ECU_3 TPS Throttle Position Sensor
ECU_4 ECT Engine coolant temperature
ECU_5 TURBO_PRESS Turbo pressure
ECU_9 KNOCK_CORR Advances correction depending on detonation sensor
ECU_13 BRAKE Brake switch

Everything else I can get with aftermarket sensors.

[FFRSpec72]

Tony this is great news, I can't wait to see how this works out for you. I love their endurance telemetry package so the pits can monitor the data in real time.

Until now I had dismissed RCP because they told me it wouldn't work with Pre 2008 Subaru SSM protocol. I even posted in their forum asking for updates because one other guy had made some mods to make it work for him using an Arduino:
ECU data from pre-canbus Subaru

Can you point me to the can bus bridge module? I see the adaptor cable on their website but not the module.

What I'd like to log off the Subaru ECU and into the RCP:
ECU_1 RPM RPM
ECU_2 SPEED Vehicle Speed
ECU_3 TPS Throttle Position Sensor
ECU_4 ECT Engine coolant temperature
ECU_5 TURBO_PRESS Turbo pressure
ECU_6 IN_VVT_R Right bank inlet timing
ECU_7 IN_VVT_L Left bank inlet timing
ECU_8 IGN_ADV Ignition advance
ECU_9 KNOCK_CORR Advances correction depending on detonation sensor
ECU_10 FUEL_LEV Fuel level
ECU_11 NEUTRAL Neutral sensor
ECU_12 CLUTCH Clutch disengaged signal
ECU_13 BRAKE Brake switch
ECU_14 ENG_LOAD Instant engine load
ECU_15 AIR_FLOW Air flow in the air pipes

I'm under the impression that the SSM protocol is too slow to log all these functions but at a minimum I want to log:
ECU_1 RPM RPM
ECU_3 TPS Throttle Position Sensor
ECU_4 ECT Engine coolant temperature
ECU_5 TURBO_PRESS Turbo pressure
ECU_9 KNOCK_CORR Advances correction depending on detonation sensor
ECU_13 BRAKE Brake switch

Everything else I can get with aftermarket sensors.

So they make a CAN BUS bridge that is for 2006+ cars with actual CAN bus and then this new ODBII to CAN bus adapter and cable (which is in my picture). from my 2002 ECU I can log, RPM, SPEED, IAT, ECT and TPS. I have not tried TURBO PRESS, KNOCK or BREAK yet. So they allow different sampling rates also on the BUS, so I can choose to take 1 MHz, 5 MHz, etc.

So I don't think they have documented the a ODBII to CAN bus adapter and cable and software mapping updates.

[DanielsDM]

Gator,
The OBDII Classic adapter is not for sale yet. I inquired on the Autosportlabs blog and they said they're close. Had a manufacturing issue to resolve, no firm date as to when it will be ready. https://www.autosportlabs.com/kickst...assic-adapter/

[FFRSpec72]

Gator,
The OBDII Classic adapter is not for sale yet. I inquired on the Autosportlabs blog and they said they're close. Had a manufacturing issue to resolve, no firm date as to when it will be ready. https://www.autosportlabs.com/kickst...assic-adapter/

I was in on the beta/kickstart program since they are just down the road from me

[FFRSpec72]

The Classic ODBII adapter currently will let me monitor if provided by the ECU

Engine Temp
Engine Load
Fuel
Oil Temp
IAT
MAP
MAF
TPS
Fuel Pressure
Ign Timing
RPM
Wheel Speed

[Frank818]

Tony!

Damn I'm so sorry about that, what torque did you apply on both nuts for the bumpsteer?
I currently set them both at 20lbs, as per OEM specs, but not sure it's ok.

Also did you use loctite on those too? I have anti-seize grease but no loctite, figured the "lock"-nuts would lock enough.

[DanielsDM]

The Classic ODBII adapter currently will let me monitor if provided by the ECU

Engine Temp
Engine Load
Fuel
Oil Temp
IAT
MAP
MAF
TPS
Fuel Pressure
Ign Timing
RPM
Wheel Speed

I figured you were part of the beta program since your in WA and have one before they are for sale.

Are these the only ECU parameters that it will let you monitor, or will it allow you to access any parameter that the ECU provides? I have a Kiwi2 and Dash Command on my phone and I can configure it access any parameter the ECU provides. In addition to the ones you listed I also want to log AFR, commanded AFR, commanded TPS (drive by wire) and probably several others I can't think of right now.

[FFRSpec72]

Tony!

Damn I'm so sorry about that, what torque did you apply on both nuts for the bumpsteer?
I currently set them both at 20lbs, as per OEM specs, but not sure it's ok.

Also did you use loctite on those too? I have anti-seize grease but no loctite, figured the "lock"-nuts would lock enough.

20 lbs, and I used just nylon lock nuts

[FFRSpec72]

So with the holiday's, travel and snow I finally got a chance to get down to Portland where my car is right now, we primed the dry sump system, 4 quarts of oil in the dry sump tank, 1 quart in the crank (via normal oil fill), 1 quart to prime the pump. pulled all 4 plug wires and spun the engine for 3 or 4 min to get pressure up, reconnected the plugs fired up the engine and no leaks no issues. Added 2 more quarts to being the dry sump tank to half full. The car does sound better that I have the muffler on it now (straight pipe before).

Spent some time on the alignment, with the new spindle adapters I could get a max of -16 degrees camber (WOW), so we set it at -3.5 degrees and set the caster to +6 and the toe out to total 1/8 (1/16 on each side).

I did not get time to measure bump steer yet, I may get Tom to do that if I can't get back down in a few weeks.

The rear firewall is done, just missing the transition to the center console. The dash is cut and being assembled this week.

Sad news: I gained 98 lbs with the dry sump system and extra oil (9 quarts), and other work that has been done to car, So I will be looking to reduce some weight. The car is still 40/60 in weight distribution and exactly 49.9 percent cross weight. So that is looking really good (as adding dry sump I thought would have changed that somewhat).

[Scargo]

What kind of oil pressure are you seeing? Is it mechanically adjustable? Like what I'm hearing!

[FFRSpec72]

What kind of oil pressure are you seeing? Is it mechanically adjustable? Like what I'm hearing!

Over 100PSI not sure yet what it will be when on track. Non-adjustable since this is using stock JDM oil pump

[Hindsight]

Congrats on getting the dry sump in there. I'm sure that was a lot of work.

[Mitch Wright]

Nice work Tony, my car runs at 100psi when cold but drops down as it builds some temp. 70-75psi seem to be its happy place off idle when warmed up.

[DanielsDM]

Sad news: I gained 98 lbs with the dry sump system and extra oil (9 quarts), and other work that has been done to car, So I will be looking to reduce some weight. The car is still 40/60 in weight distribution and exactly 49.9 percent cross weight. So that is looking really good (as adding dry sump I thought would have changed that somewhat).

98 pounds!!!! Is the DS tank and pan made out of lead?? I haven't weighed all the parts of my system yet but I'm thinking it will only add around 30lb including the oil.

[FFRSpec72]

98 pounds!!!! Is the DS tank and pan made out of lead?? I haven't weighed all the parts of my system yet but I'm thinking it will only add around 30lb including the oil.

I grew 98 lbs with all the changes that I have made, suspension, firewall, dry sump, dash, etc., I would say the dry sump added over 50 lbs as you have the tank, the pan, the pump, the lines and fittings and the mounts for the tank (has to be pretty stout) and the extra 4 quarts of oil :-)

[DanielsDM]

Ah, that makes sense. Good to hear your making progress. When do you think you'll be racing?

[FFRSpec72]

Ah, that makes sense. Good to hear your making progress. When do you think you'll be racing?

I will have it out in March and do a few more test and tune days like I did last year and then start racing it if all goes well with suspension and engine

[RetroRacing]

Great to hear!!

[FFRSpec72]

Roll cage fixed, now acceptable to SCCA and ICSCC

20170109_212737000_iOS.jpg

[Scargo]

How? What? Please explain! You removed part of a horizontal crossbar. How does that make it safer?

[FFRSpec72]

How? What? Please explain! You removed part of a horizontal crossbar. How does that make it safer?

No per SCCA and ICSCC the end of the 2x2 needs a cap to prevent the 2x2 from crushing upon a roll over, notice the side bar is welded below the top of the 2x2 thus the reason why they want a end cap.

[Zach34]

Glad to hear that satisfies the rules. I did the same thing after Chad posted about it.

[FFRSpec72]

So finished up the bump steer this weekend, I was able to get .

Driver side .0020 on compression
Driver side .0040 on droop
Passenger side .0010 on compression
Passenger side .0030 on Droop

Alignment was -3 camber, +6 caster and 1/8 toe out (1/16 each side)

[FFRSpec72]

Dash is pretty much finished, will run 3 gauges on dash, gauge 1- oil temp and oil pressure, gauge 2 (center) Air Fuel Ratio, gauge 3- water temp and fuel pressure, there will be a shift light on dash and the tablet will have all the other info (non important stuff like speed, rpm, etc.). Need to put the windscreen back on There are also 2 quick release access panels in to that gets me access to everything form the top of the dash

FullSizeRender.jpg

[FFRSpec72]

Upgrades and updates done, it wrap time will see how that comes out