818R "Glynman Style"

[longislandwrx]

Sounds good, if you have ported ones already, then I wouldn't bother.

Personally I went with composites for 3 reasons.

GS 8mm phenolics with a gasket cost $100... composites are $200 and have o-rings. halfway there already.

I didn't have jdm tgvs, so there would have been a cost/labor involved, composites are a done deal.

the composites save 3.88 lbs over stock tgvs (and I believe over a lb over jdms)

as far as I know, if you are going for max flow, the 2.5 intake outflows the plastic all day long, but there's more work involved in the swap.

here's a good thread, with a few of the flows.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2229576

The composite manifold is definitely lighter and less susceptible to heat soak.

[Scargo]

I think it's interesting that the data from the NASIOC manifold flow tests (which I'm familiar with) showed that the worst flow was the plastic "thing" that they put down.

Plastic Thing with TB
Runner 1 293 CFM
Runner 2 283 CFM
Runner 3 283 CFM
Runner 4 291 CFM
Average 287.5 CFM
Runner to runner max variation 10 CFM or 3.5%

What is interesting to me about these numbers is that I ported a set of W25 heads and had Supertech +1mm valves installed. With my Kelford 200-C cams (272/268 Degree, 11.30/10.50mm High Lift) I was able to get 284 CFM out of the intakes. That's pretty decent.
So, why do I need a bigger/better manifold for an essentially stock DAVCS head and destroked motor? Micah McMahan (3MI Racing) and Dominic Acia ("get a Dom tune"- now at Turn-in Concepts) both like this manifold for my destroker motor. I believe it has something to do with the size/flow and some to do with the runner lengths and a small bit to do with it being plastic and not sucking up heat.
I dug out my NA long runner manifold and measured all three. The STi has the shortest runners at 43CM. The TGV-less NA measures abut 59CM and the plastic one is 62CM!

longislandwrx (sorry, I can't remember your name),
Seems I need a set of phenolic spacers if I am going to run an aftermarket, O-ringed TGV and the plastic manifold. Can't do O-ring on O-ring.
I think I will get standard 2mm phenolic spacers (and use ported stock TGVs) unless there is a double O-ringed spacer out there. I haven't run across one. I also wonder about wrapping the manifold or at least putting gold foil on the underside. I don't believe I've seen anyone doing that.

[Scargo]

Received the T's from of all places Low Range Off-Road.
FullSizeRender (48).jpg
Plated brass, they get me closer to my goal of all Metric, double-flares like the Subaru has. They seem well-made.

[Hindsight]

Hey Scott..... so I'm scratching my head at how you were able to pull off your remote oil cooler sandwich plate the way you did. I tried to basically copy what you did but I'm running into a clearance issue with the timing cover.

I have an '07 donor so I had to take all this crap off:



That allowed me to then thread in the shorter threaded tube (Subaru part number you referenced in another post somewhere I saved), and then attach my Mocal sandwich plate with built in thermostat. The issue I ran into is that it won't sit flush because it hits the timing cover:


I thought about maybe keeping the heat shield off and wrapping the manifold with header wrap to all me room to mount the plate this way, which would work:


But if I do it that way, I don't know that it would fit with headers (which I will upgrade to at some point) and it's going to result in my having even longer oil lines. If I do it like the second pic, I'll probably have 6-8 feet of total oil line (out and return) since the oil cooler has to go on the left side of the car.

My other thought is to just take a cutoff wheel and hack off enough of the timing cover that the bracket clears it. I realize that this means the cover is no longer sealed and I suppose a rock or something could fly up in there but with the plate and it's hoses in the way, I think that's a pretty slim chance. Thoughts?

[Scargo]

It's Glyn, but I can see why you would call me Scott. My signature is a reference to Star Trek, when Captain Kirk asks Scotty to divert more power to the ship's shields. Scotty responds with, “Giving them all we got.”

I have to plead ignorance with your engine's heat exchanger pieces. I have never seen the parts you are showing me in the first picture. The exchanger itself looks somewhat like later model ones. With those parts removed it appears that the case surface is at the same height as a EJ255~257 engine and that the gasket has the same surface to seal on.
The thing is, I did this with a Canton adapter that eliminates the filter from the area. You have a "sandwich plate". The exiting heights for the hose fittings must be different.
I would cut the plastic in a heartbeat. You can always silicone around it to keep water out. If you go that route use the very best, pure silicone caulk you can get because it will have better temperature resistance.

For a related aside I will point out that, with the filter there, you are going to get heat off the headers and it's going to heat the oil as it passes through. Make sure the headers are well-wrapped completely and double layered (fully overlapped). I double-up in critical areas when I can. I have a buddy whose oil hose burst where it was closest to the headers. This caused him to spin out and the car burst into flames. He had his headers and hoses insulated and yet they were a half-inch or less from the headers. They quickly got hard and brittle over time and failed. We just found that another STi track friend, who, like you, had new hoses going to a cooler and Accusump, had the hoses hard against the headers with only a thin silicone sleeve and one wrap of insulation on the header pipe. Some of the header was not wrapped at all... We liked to freaked!
We had on hand some super insulation material. We tweaked the angle of the fittings a bit and were able to wedge that in-between the two and wrapped the headers better for a temporary fix.
This is an area, and a mod, that needs to be taken very seriously! On my first (2011) STi, I had a header to up-pipe gasket fail on my Full Race header system and it torched the surrounding area (after it blew through my wrappings) and caught stuff on fire. Fortunately I had pulled into the pits and people put it out fairly quickly but I suffered major wiring damage. Besides header wrap, a metal shield in that area is a good idea if you have a late model engine with D-AVCS. Header to up-pipe and up-pipe to turbo gasket failures may be rare, but when they occur they can incinerate anything nearby that's combustible. It can be like a blow-torch. For example, when head gaskets burn through the escaping gasses have the ability to quickly cut a path in the metal of the case and head.

[longislandwrx]

Seems I need a set of phenolic spacers if I am going to run an aftermarket, O-ringed TGV and the plastic manifold. Can't do O-ring on O-ring.
I think I will get standard 2mm phenolic spacers (and use ported stock TGVs) unless there is a double O-ringed spacer out there. I haven't run across one. I also wonder about wrapping the manifold or at least putting gold foil on the underside. I don't believe I've seen anyone doing that.

There used to be a specific composite TGV for the plastic manifolds, no phenolics required. (no top oring groove)

http://www.zerolift.com/product-p/zl-tgv-p.htm

I was going to post this

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2709634

and realized you already replied to it.

And I wasn't knocking the composite, was just saying its not the highest flowing. I agree for your build its a good fit.

[Scargo]

Thanks for the effort! Always interested in a different perspective or idea.
The manifold issue is an interesting one. It has been discussed on NASIOC (at least) at length. Once, when I mentioned manifold diameter and tuning length I was met with some derision since you are packing the air in with a turbo. It's like you could have almost any shape or length or volume and it would work because of boost. Then experts came back and supported me about the relevance of tuned length and volume. Now, I don't pretend to know a lot about turbocharged engines but I know that for NA motors the intake and exhaust manifold design is critical to what you are trying to accomplish in where you optimize the power band.
You want the intake air moving as fast as possible into the cylinders. So, smaller is better up to a point. High velocity increases turbulence and mixes the air and fuel better. Under serious boost this may be less relevant. Still, you want runners balanced. If they are too small you might miss out on some efficiency at higher RPMs. Then there are the pressure waves that length affects. Again, I cannot say how relevant it is under two or three atmospheres, but it makes sense t me that it is relevant at low or off-boost. I'm not sure I am understanding the importance of different sized plenums in this discussion.

[Hindsight]

Sorry Glyn, now that you mention your name, I do remember it but I don't know why I could swear your name was Scott. Maybe someone else called you that at one point?!

Anyway, thanks for the input. I'm with you on the heat shielding. I've already been researching header wraps and hose sleeving.... can't believe how expensive the sleeving is!

[Harley818]

Glyn,
I found the zerolift tgv deletes on amazon for $180. Heat isolation, o-ring seals, weight savings (not much but it all counts), and nice smooth bores without any work on my part.....

last couple weekends up the sunshine coast have been awesome and sunny.......just sayin.
I was watching for a Prius on two wheels.... but didn't see any.

[Scargo]

Harley, I have an app that shows me the temps in Madeira Park every time I open my laptop... Supposed to be 70 today. Pretty warm here in CT. 77 today.
I have new performance tires on the Prius. I'll be passing through Vancouver around the 16th of June. Wife just made reservations yesterday (forget exact date). I go down to Sechelt fairly often. Looking forward to getting out there.

[Hindsight]

Ok, so mocal makes a 1" spacer which moves the sandwich plate down an inch. That's further than I want, bringing it closer to the header, but it will work and there will still be enough clearance. Using the spacer also requires a longer tube nut. The spacer + tube nut + gasket runs $59 from racerpartswholesale. I'm going to go that route for now.

Now I just have to figure out where to mount the oil cooler. Will post more about that over on my thread.

[Scargo]

I don't understand. You could have a Canton 22-597 for $73 at Summit Racing and add a remote filter mount like Canton's for $114 (and pick from many large, high-performance filters) and add the thermostat for $178 or Perma-Cools for $100 and you're done (except for hose and fittings). The filter block gives you a place to tap in the Accusump or sensors.
ctr-22-595_w_ml.jpgCTR-22-620_BK_ml.jpgctr-22-480_w_ml.jpgprm-1074_jy_ml.jpg
I know it's a lot of money, but you will be doing it right.

[C.Plavan]

Just to be clear for others watching this thread, you dont need all that if you are going Dry Sump. You tie the Oil Cooler into the dry sump easy.

[Hindsight]

Hey Glyn, I was going to do that at first but I went the Mocal route due to cost, simplicity and space savings. The more I get bolted into the car, the more I struggle with finding spaces for everything. Running a remote filter mount and a remote thermostat adds a lot of hoses, fittings, complexity and takes up space. I'm not saying what you are suggesting is in any way inferior to what I've done, quite the contrary, I just wanted to keep it simple. The Mocal unit I got has a built in thermostat and oil filter goes right on. Just need the two hoses and fittings for each end.

So far no one that I know of has figured out what size oil cooler is needed and where it should be mounted. Chad is getting close I think but there isn't a lot of data points yet.

[Scargo]

Chad, you're right, but only partially. You still need a remote filter, a thermostat or a heater in the oil tank, an oil tank, a breather of some sort and miles of hose. And that oil cooler. You can tie the oil cooler in after the filter block, too.

In hindsight, I know it's a lot of money. Somewhat poking you. It's just that I found, what for me is, the best solution for keeping those hoses away from the pesky hot exhaust. I hate that Hell Hole where the filter is!
BTW, just took almost nine quarts to change the oil in my STi. My DIY cost: $122... I sure hope my motor's happy!

[Hindsight]

In your STI, is your oil cooler above the pan or below? If above, does the oil drain back after shutoff causing a high reading on the dipstick? I feel like I'm having deja vu... like I've asked this before.

[Scargo]

The bottom of my Setrab is essentially flush with the bottom of the pan and the top is a couple of inches above. It's big. The filter is very high, for easy access. The oil filters I use, Royal Purple 30-8A or K&N HP-3001 have built-in check valves. I don't ever see high oil levels unless I forget to close the valve on the Accusump.
My signature contains a link to Shutterfly. https://2008subarutrack.shutterfly.com/ I have pics of everything I've done to the STi as well as my IWSTI build page http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gr-members-journals/255053-2008-sti-track-car-journal.html

[Scargo]

Just for fun a video from Palmer Motorsports Park on Friday with HOD (Hooked on Driving). This is the third event ever held at this new track in southern Mass.

[C.Plavan]

Just for fun a video from Palmer Motorsports Park on Friday with HOD (Hooked on Driving). This is the third event ever held at this new track in southern Mass.

WTF with that pit in entrance wall!????? The designer should be shot. (Well, maybe a little extreme... but c'mon think about driver safety!) There is sure alot of K wall also- not alot of run off.

[Scargo]

That was my first impression, too! Your line has you going straight at it as you try and make as big a radius as possible on the straightaway. Plus the "straight" was so dirty that even a good line was greasy. I could not get sand off my Continental slicks and get them to heat up and really work. This made me uncomfortable at 125 on that curved straight, as if I was at the limits in the rain and trying to turn. Only one car went completely off at T12. It is a fun roller coaster track though.
PalmerTrack-lg.jpg

[C.Plavan]

That was my first impression, too! Your line has you going straight at it as you try and make as big a radius as possible on the straightaway. Plus the "straight" was so dirty that even a good line was greasy. I could not get sand off my Continental slicks and get them to heat up and really work. This made me uncomfortable at 125 on that curved straight, as if I was at the limits in the rain and trying to turn. Only one car went completely off at T12. It is a fun roller coaster track though.
PalmerTrack-lg.jpg

Wheel 2 wheel racing for position there is going to cause someone to get hurt really bad. One bump from a car on the inside or rear will be catastrophic.

[Wayne Presley]

There is sure alot of K wall also- not alot of run off.

Not a lot??? Now that's an understatement..., Lets see, do I hit the K wall or the jagged rocks...

[D Clary]

Kind of makes Sonoma look wide open

[Wayne Presley]

Kind of makes Sonoma look wide open

Hell Luke had about the same hazards destroying the death star..

[Scargo]

Though there are some dangerous spots, most of it is low-speed, tight turns in third and fourth. Nothing horrible is going to happen to you 'cept on that straight! Turn 2-3 is pretty fast and there's that Jersey barrier again... No tires for high-speed turn 3. I think I'm going to sit it out for a while and hope for the upgrades that are promised.

[Scargo]

I am just about to get back on the kit. I saw this. Don't know if anyone is familiar with the Lotus 211. The enclosed cockpit is what I have envisioned and I have been working on a design. This looks nice.
enclosed cockpit idea.jpg

I also have everything back from Larry's. Now I am ready to build up my long-rod destroker motor. Something to do on a cold and rainy day.

[Rasmus]

I like the enclosed cockpit idea. May the motor go smoothly.

[Hindsight]

Welcome back Glyn. Looking forward to seeing the motor buildup pics.

[Tamra]

The only thing I don't like about the enclosed cockpit is no ride alongs!

Let us know when/if we can help out with your motor assembly. Hope everything goes smoothly!

[Scargo]

I can't remember who's thread I was reading where they were trying to squeeze an exhaust system into the center area at the rear. Perhaps these Blox offerings could help? They have a bunch of them...
racemuffler.jpg

[Scargo]

I have not been working on the car, per se. I have been trying to get my STi back on the track. I had the unfortunate experience of being sold a transaxle that was not what was advertised. The transfer gear ratio of 1:1 was not compatible with my rear differential. It took Jon, at Flatirons Tuning/Flatirons Imports to know what was going on with my car. Now I just need to know if 1.1:1 transfer gears from later model transaxles will work in the '04 six-speed I have. I want to get this ready for the spring season and then I will turn my attention back to the 818. I have the front suspension to finish and a dry-sump destroker motor to build and a close-ratio transaxle with OS Giken LSD to build. I'm going to work with an '06-'07 tranny so I can easily add an external oil cooler.
Just letting everyone know that I am running behind but have not lost interest at all and I'm still dreaming and scheming.

[Canadian818]

Good to hear you're still invested. Once you get going post lots of pics. Also, don't hesitate to post pics of whatever your up to with your STI, I'm sure lots of members would enjoy it.

[Scargo]

Thinking, given all the cooling issues that have been experienced, that I might do something like this. A dragster scoop with big intercooler in it.

[Frank818]

That's the Ariel Atom? Never seen it in green, pretty impressive!

[Scargo]

No, a TR-42. Guy has sunk a ton of money into it and after four years it's still not on the street or track.

[Scargo]

This is close to what I am designing towards.
2.jpg
Exhaust would probably exit on the right side in front of wheel. Bulkhead would be extended to accommodate the turbo. Race fuel tank would be up in passenger space as several others have done.

[Mitch Wright]

Cool project and the fun part of building a cars like this, really no rules and am looking forward to seeing the progress.

[Scargo]

Here's something to keep people amused as the project barely progresses. I have to get the STi back on the track before I can focus on working on the 818.
This might give people some ideas?
A long-runner N/A RS intake, reversed and a tiny alternator relocated. They both will be driven with separate, four rib serpentine belts. I am waiting on pieces for building a tensioner for the alternator. For my power steering pump I was able to use the tensioner bracket and run one of the timing belt idlers as a tensioning wheel.
NA intake on engine.jpgAlternator bracket.jpg

[Rasmus]

Glyn, that is a beautiful motor. Got any more pictures of it? Especially the twin-scroll manifold and uppipe stuff.

[Scargo]

More can be posted shortly. It's getting very close to going in the car. Final bit of welding to do on one pipe at the flange. Reid Washbon Inconel bellows. Headers started out as Full Race parts, but were difficult to get on and impossible to keep gaskets from blowing out. Thus the bellows and V-bands.


I have these on FB. I can get all of them to you, or I can put them on Shutterfly.