Hello everyone, I am happy to join the group. I have a FFR Challenge car, I did not know that is what I have had for the last ten years but that is it. I used to work at an Automotive school and I was given a free motorcycle. I put an hour into it and tried to flip it for a few quick bucks. Guy came and said "I cannot pay you for it but I will trade you for a car". Said it was a 65 Wildcat and when it pulled up it was a 66 Special. But it did drive to my house so I made the trade. I took it to school and used it as a project and we suicide the rear doors, channel, chopped, and custom painted the car. All of it paid by the school so I turned my free bike into a free low rider and again thought I would make a buck. Guy came and said "I cannot pay you for it but I will trade you for a race car". It was the race part that got my attention. The original owner who raced it in the 25 hours of Daytona and other events sadly pulled the motor and transmission and died of a heart attack. His estate was willed to his neighbor and that is who I made the trade. It was red with the meatball and I found a rolled Mustang and put in what was there before a 302 with a HO 5 Speed. Did not even rewire it just used the harness in it and it fired right up. So I took it for a track day at Laguna Seca and some idiot in a real Cobra was out there and almost took me out rolling out of the Corkscrew like a moron. I realized at that point I have something special and I cannot afford to replace it if I wreck it so no more racing unless I win the lottery. I race 24 hours of Lemons to get my fix because if I crash my 1989 Probe that is more my price range. Since I was no longer going to race it and had done zero research on the car I painted it Blue with the stripes, ditched the SCCA cage ( I left the side bars) and race seat and windshield (kept it all just in case). I made the hoop style roll bar, made a wood dash, added a remote key solenoid so I have a way to lock it, Started to carpet, factory seats, Windshield, Stereo, heater core, and basically thought I would make it a street car. When I started hunting on the chassis for the VIN that is when my journey of discovery began, I realized what I have is the Challenge Car. I am asking for forgiveness of the racing gods that I offended. Now I need to know what to do, do I finish making it a street car and take on the Gorilla that is the state of California try to get it legal. Do I undo what I have done and make it a race car again? (which means I would have to sell it because I am a believer you should not race what you cannot replace). I thought it would be best to ask the enthusiasts what you would do, to street or not to street... that is the question. Thank you I would love input
Everyone is different for what they call irreplaceable. Ultimately, these cars are toys to be driven for the love and thrill of it. If you don't feel you can do that, then yeah sell it. Otherwise, just enjoy yourself and try not to think of it as a liability. Also consider that the resale you'll expect will be quite a bit less than the average Roadster you see on BAT given the modifications and unknown origin.
Everyone is different for what they call irreplaceable. Ultimately, these cars are toys to be driven for the love and thrill of it. If you don't feel you can do that, then yeah sell it. Otherwise, just enjoy yourself and try not to think of it as a liability. Also consider that the resale you'll expect will be quite a bit less than the average Roadster you see on BAT given the modifications and unknown origin.
I appreciate it, just did not know if I did a sacrilegious act trying to make a race car a street car. But I will enjoy it more on the street. I have a dealer plate at work so I have driven it a bit, rough ride on the street for sure. Did not know it was a Challenge car until I did the research and did not know if they had a cult following or more things to consider. I know especially with a used Mustang power plant it is not worth nearly as much as y'alls car but since I am in it under 3k I can always make money on it. I am just trying to do right by the car gods and figure out what is best for the car.
That is typically my thoughts, I am just not used to having this nice of a toy and want to do right by the car. Also probably secretly want an excuse not to deal with the DMV but that is overcome the first time I can cruise HWY1 with it.
Thanks, nice to know I wont get shanked if I bring it to a car show. Still a lot to do to make it nicer but that never ends with a hot rod. I am fun doing the research, looking like it was 2666 and Donny Edwards raced it 11 times from 4/9/05 to 11/30/07
From the FFR chassis number, would the CA DMV even know that it was a challenge car? It is not how the kit was born that is important, it is that the vehicle passes the inspections by the CHP, mostly about stolen parts, the CARB regarding emissions equipment, and finally the brake and light inspection. I used to live in SoCal and built my MK4 there, the people behind the desks at the DMV are pretty clueless regarding specially constructed vehicles.
That said, I would not undo the conversions already made to create a good street car. On the streets are where you are going to spend the most time in the car anyway. If you want to track or autocross the car once in a while, no problem other than insurance. I would recommend you complete making it a full street car and enjoy it. However, that said, you may find you would want to do some mods in the process to the rear suspension. I had the 3-link and liked it with the exception of hitting freeway expansion joints at 70 when the freeway passed over something below. If you want even better ride comfort, a seat change would definitely help. The guy who bought my MK4 just did that and he said it was night and day better than the Kirkeys that were in the car. An upgrade to IRS would be even better, just not sure if that is even mechanically feasible beyond the likely prohibitively high cost.
Do the least to the car you have to so that it is road worthy, insurable, and titled. Then drive the piss out of it until you get bored, then modify it further and repeat.
MK4 base kit, 2004 Mach 1 donor, 4.6L DOHC, TR-3650 5-speed, narrowed stock axle with 3.55 gears and TruTrac, PS, PB, ABS, 17" Halibrand replica wheels, dual roll bars, Kirkey high back seats, with paint by Jeff Miller, registered 9/2014, sold 3/1/2018.
New project, 1970 Mustang Fastback Coyote powered restomod. Started 10/14/16. http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/bu...mod-build.html
... I had the 3-link and liked it with the exception of hitting freeway expansion joints at 70 when the freeway passed over something below...
Regarding ride comfort: Challenge cars have 750# front springs and 500# in the rear, the street roadsters with 3 link are delivered with 500# front and 350# rear.
There's nothing stopping a Challenge Car from being a street car once you have lights and meet street or licensing requirements. There's no indication in the chassis numbers as to what it was intended to be although I would expect that Factory Five can track the numbers to a configuration. The additional cage and support bars would identify the chassis as a Challenge Car, it's a fair chunk of tubing.
As far as pieces and parts, as others have said, change it to be what you want to drive.
Jim
2016 Mk4 Challenge Car, IRS, 3.31 Torsen, RDI Aluminum 427w, AFR 225s, Vic Jr. ProSystems 780 HP, TKO-600 w/Liberty mods. Forward cage. Levy 6/4 piston Wilwoods. Not completed yet, will be a streetable track car.
2004 Superformance MkIII #1855, 2007 Superformance MkIII #2584 purchased in 2012 both sold.
You never know with the California DMV. I am getting my ducks in a row still need to add turn signals and a few other details for when inevitably I will be doing a CHP brake lamp check. I kept all of the smog crud on the motor of the Mustang I pulled it off of . No idea what to do if they ask about a catalytic converter. Anyway I will figure it out. Thank you all for the feedback I think I will stay the course
I have a Challenge car that I drive on the street, but I also do autox and a couple track days every year. The extent on my "conversion" was a windshield, functional headlights, tail lights and blinkers. Also stuck a heater in it as I'm in the North East and that expands my driving season a bit. I did not make the doors functional. I went back and forth a lot on the doors. Ultimately after getting in and out of a lot of other people's Cobra that have doors, I honestly find stepping over the door to be easier! The down side is you have to step on the seats. Being mine is a Challenge car the seats are just basic Kirkey with vinyl so stepping on them doesn't bother me, I just have to remember not to do that in other people's Cobra! I like the ride/stiffness of mine and have taken it on many long haul trips 1000+ miles and I honestly find it more comfortable then my daily driver.
I hear ya on the race car bit though. I bought mine from Carl Thomson who raced it heavily. While the car desperately needs a repaint I still resist because every once in a while I'll go to something and some one will recognize the car. I've got all the NASA racing logs and the car has quite the history with many wins. So, I'm always ya, I'd like to paint it and make it pretty but.... I don't, because race car!
As for car shows... I don't go to very many. Mostly, because I enjoy driving it. Some how sitting in a lawn chair in a parking lot on a nice day is just crazy boring. Also, for car shows about 80% of the time it's an ok time, but there's also this snobby group that wants to throw insults that it isn't real, it's a kit! OMG! Call the you aren't cool enough police! Then of course they tell me how great their Ford or Chevy is as it's "built, not bought". Last I checked, Ford and Chevy built the car that they are claiming they built but don't let hypocrisy get in the way. Rather then debate them, I just go drive.
Just curious, as it was originally sold and used as a race car, was it ever titled? Do you have a title or at least the original Certificate of Origin? Seems without all the required paperwork you may be relegated to driving on your work dealer plate. The several race cars (not FFR) that I played with over the years never had titles as they were never intended for street use.
Just curious, as it was originally sold and used as a race car, was it ever titled? Do you have a title or at least the original Certificate of Origin? Seems without all the required paperwork you may be relegated to driving on your work dealer plate. The several race cars (not FFR) that I played with over the years never had titles as they were never intended for street use.
Mine was. It was built by the Traveling Builder and he registered it as a 1965 Shelby Cobra and New Hampshire just accepted the title as is.
In California... that won't be the case. There's the whole SB100 and lots of hoops..
So I agonized over the doors as well because with the inner structure of the door gone to clear the cage it is not a simple path forward. I looked at a million hinge options and even considered cabinet hinges that slide out to have a flush mount at the back. In the end I like the protection of the side of the cage, if I thought through it at the time it would have made more sense to mold in the doors before I painted it but I did not. So again I am guilty of blasphemy to the car gods and I took a good old fashioned home door hinge and painted it blue. Car show was off the cuff, not really my plans for this, just want to drive it. The only car show I have ever brought a car to was Concourse De Lemons in Monterey so no snobs there. As for the fake snob police I always quote Adam Carolla. He said "the Cobras are like the fake breasts of the car world, everyone wants real but the fake ones are just as fun". Thank you for your input
So this one had never seen the street and never been registered and never even had the VIN stamped. Sold and used solely as a race car by the guy who bought it and raced it 11 times (I have his NASA Logbook) The COO they will only send a new one to the guy who bought it (who is Dead). The last ten years I only planned on racing it, as I get older and know that I cannot afford to chuck it into the corner and lose it I am slowly making it a road car. But I have an uphill challenge and I should have done it all right away because now the car is almost 20 years old and harder to prove provenance when they never stamped it and it was never assigned a VIN by DMV
So this one had never seen the street and never been registered and never even had the VIN stamped. Sold and used solely as a race car by the guy who bought it and raced it 11 times (I have his NASA Logbook) The COO they will only send a new one to the guy who bought it (who is Dead). The last ten years I only planned on racing it, as I get older and know that I cannot afford to chuck it into the corner and lose it I am slowly making it a road car. But I have an uphill challenge and I should have done it all right away because now the car is almost 20 years old and harder to prove provenance when they never stamped it and it was never assigned a VIN by DMV
Challenge cars do have an FFR number. It's stamped on the frame... I'm trying to remember exactly where. Once you get that number you should be able to get an FFR plate from Factory Five, which will help in the registration/VIN process.
I have been working with FF to uncover the mystery. I don't see it in all the places I have read, by your knee, in the drivers side well. The race logbook lists the VIN as 2666 so maybe I do not have a Challenge car but FFR2666K which would have been a street car with a NASA style cage welded in? I have had this car for ten years and at the time it all looked legit. But now I have to get paper cuts to find the paperwork I got when I originally bought it. Found the log book but I need to find the bill of sale again and that will shed light on the original owner. Donny Edwards was the one racing it but it turns out he was not the one who originally purchased the car, so not sure if he was a paid driver or bought it to race. They gave me a few leads and I hope to solve the scooby-doo mystery soon.
Does it have the square tube “backbone” structure in the transmission tunnel? Mk2 and later street cars do; Challenge cars do not. Reason being that the structural stiffness created from the full cage full cage made the backbone unnecessary.
That's what I thought from the other photos. So it's a MK3 or older? I honestly don't know when FF started making the first Challenge cars. Mine is square and is a MK3.
IMO, these are cars meant to be driven. No matter challenge or not. Nothing sadder than a car that wants to be driven, sitting in a garage or storage for years. It's like the Toy Story movies. The toys come to life because their owners love them, play with them and make them what they what to be. The car is for you and you alone! Go through the short-term pain of the DMV, drive it, make it live and be alive in it!
If I found through this process that the challenge cars had some magic or value that would want to stay original I would put it back as it was and sell it for someone to race it. Since I have been on here the vibe I get it that it is ok to customize or street them so I will stay on that path. For now it is solving the mystery of the VIN. I am going to throw it on the lift and spend the weekend searching the frame for more clues and find the bill of sale from the estate to get more clues. Thank you
There is no backbone structure visible meaning that either it was born a Challenge car or a pre-Mk2 street car. If it was originally a Challenge car with so much of the cage removed for the most part it has become a Mk1. Here's images of what the Challenge chassis looks like with all of the structure in place.
Not sure but I think the chassis numbers are on the 2"sq tube under the dash. Can't check right now but should be able to tomorrow. I can't imagine that the numbers are in a non-standard location.
The only real downside that I find is getting in/out over the side diagonal bar. Once in it's a cozy cockpit.
Then I question taking what is probably the strongest and safest Roadster chassis and gutting it. But then I'm the guy that added to the overhead cage.
Jim
2016 Mk4 Challenge Car, IRS, 3.31 Torsen, RDI Aluminum 427w, AFR 225s, Vic Jr. ProSystems 780 HP, TKO-600 w/Liberty mods. Forward cage. Levy 6/4 piston Wilwoods. Not completed yet, will be a streetable track car.
2004 Superformance MkIII #1855, 2007 Superformance MkIII #2584 purchased in 2012 both sold.
You never know with the California DMV. I am getting my ducks in a row still need to add turn signals and a few other details for when inevitably I will be doing a CHP brake lamp check. I kept all of the smog crud on the motor of the Mustang I pulled it off of . No idea what to do if they ask about a catalytic converter. Anyway I will figure it out. Thank you all for the feedback I think I will stay the course
The CARB inspection does not care about CATs nor do you need them. They are interested in vapor emissions, that's it. If you have a properly installed and working PCV system and a proper fuel filler cap, ask me how I know!, you are golden.
MK4 base kit, 2004 Mach 1 donor, 4.6L DOHC, TR-3650 5-speed, narrowed stock axle with 3.55 gears and TruTrac, PS, PB, ABS, 17" Halibrand replica wheels, dual roll bars, Kirkey high back seats, with paint by Jeff Miller, registered 9/2014, sold 3/1/2018.
New project, 1970 Mustang Fastback Coyote powered restomod. Started 10/14/16. http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/bu...mod-build.html
If I found through this process that the challenge cars had some magic or value that would want to stay original I would put it back as it was and sell it for someone to race it. Since I have been on here the vibe I get it that it is ok to customize or street them so I will stay on that path. For now it is solving the mystery of the VIN. I am going to throw it on the lift and spend the weekend searching the frame for more clues and find the bill of sale from the estate to get more clues. Thank you
If you can locate the Factory Five manufacturers serial number, which can become the VIN in CA, then you can contact Factory Five and they can give you the details of how the kit left the factory.
MK4 base kit, 2004 Mach 1 donor, 4.6L DOHC, TR-3650 5-speed, narrowed stock axle with 3.55 gears and TruTrac, PS, PB, ABS, 17" Halibrand replica wheels, dual roll bars, Kirkey high back seats, with paint by Jeff Miller, registered 9/2014, sold 3/1/2018.
New project, 1970 Mustang Fastback Coyote powered restomod. Started 10/14/16. http://forums.vintage-mustang.com/bu...mod-build.html
Looking at this the challenge car looks right except for the X brace up front is Round tube and mine is square. Starting to think mine is not a challenge car but an older MK. I spent the weekend scouring for a stamped vin and I see nothing. I wonder is there any other part that would be stamped and came with the kit?
Looking at this the challenge car looks right except for the X brace up front is Round tube and mine is square. Starting to think mine is not a challenge car but an older MK. I spent the weekend scouring for a stamped vin and I see nothing. I wonder is there any other part that would be stamped and came with the kit?
Mine is a MK3 Challenge car and has a square X brace up front. If yours is a MK3 Challenge then it is correct to have a square tube front X brace.
For my 2016 Mk4 Challenge Car the S/N is on the 2" square tube to the left of the steering shaft. The square tube is the one that the steering shaft is attached to.
Not sure if you'll be able to see it if the dash it in place.
Jim
2016 Mk4 Challenge Car, IRS, 3.31 Torsen, RDI Aluminum 427w, AFR 225s, Vic Jr. ProSystems 780 HP, TKO-600 w/Liberty mods. Forward cage. Levy 6/4 piston Wilwoods. Not completed yet, will be a streetable track car.
2004 Superformance MkIII #1855, 2007 Superformance MkIII #2584 purchased in 2012 both sold.
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Originally Posted by JimStone
