MRG MotorSports 818S Build

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Hi Frank,
Using KIR-47900 Seat, Aluminum, Intermediate Road Race, 15 Degree Layback, 18 in. Hip Width,
I added a custom bend to the back of the kirkey seat. It is 5.5" from firewall at bottom. 2.5" at the 10" high bar and touching the 24" square bar and touching the angled roll bar.
The cross brace is right under my bent knee. So no problem at all.
Here is a picture of my seat test a long time ago. I will be permanently installing it this week. I'll post more pictures.
Bob
seat.jpg

[Bob_n_Cincy]

This week I am going to Turn In Concepts to do a dynamometer run for 2 reasons.

First: To make sure everything in my engine is running proper.
I don't want anything going on that will break the motor, like a lot have experienced.

Second: I want to establish a base line for my engine.
So I can see the result of modifications I make later.

Currently my 2004 FXT 2.5L turbo AVCS DBW engine (93K) is pretty close to stock. The only significant change is that I have no exhaust after the catalytic converters.
The published numbers on my engine are:
210 max HP @ crankshaft
235 max ft-lbs @ crankshaft

Does anyone want to take a guess at my wheel HP and torque numbers will be?

I would also like to get some opinions on my future mod list.
My application is Autocross, track day and daily driver.
I put the list in the order of importance.


Engine reliability mods
Air to water intercooler
STI style oil Pan and pick up.
Accusump
External Oil cooler
Low oil pressure / hot engine LOUD buzzer (marine type)

Help engine breath easier.
K&N air Filter
tgv delete
equal length headers
up pipe without CAt
down pipe with out CAT

Misc improvements
add gauges
Wide band AFR
Boost gauge
AOS system


Performance Mods
bigger turbo
turbo blanket

Please make recommendations as you see fit.
Thanks
Bob

[Hindsight]

Bob, I like the upgrade list above. It's nearly identical to mine including the wide band AFR etc. If you later go with a bigger turbo, depending on how big you go, most of them will require a fuel pump and injector upgrade too. Also, it seems that anything more than a stock turbo with a tune is going to really be pushing the stock pistons so you'll probably want to price in some machine work and some forged pistons in that stage of the build, unless you are ok with the high chance of blowing your ring lands and then doing a bigger build after that happens.

RE the headers.... not much bang for the buck with the stock turbo. It will also take away the characteristic subie rumble and make it sound more like a Honda instead. Some don't care about that, some do.... but a good header runs $800 - $1700 and you will want to spend more money on header wrap or coating (wrap is the way to go IMHO). You can get a bolt-on turbo upgrade for that kind of money. It also seems to be a challenge to find a header that will fit in the 818.

RE your tuned HP rating with current components.... ~250-270 WHP would be my guess, but it depends on how aggressive they go with it and the brand of Dyno.

Good luck with it and keep us posted!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

more than a stock turbo with a tune is going to really be pushing the stock pistons so you'll probably want to price in some machine work and some forged pistons

I believe the 04 forester xt came with strong internals. Is this correct?

RE the headers.... not much bang for the buck with the stock turbo. It will also take away the characteristic subie rumble and make it sound more like a Honda instead. Some don't care about that, some do.... but a good header runs $800 - $1700

I was going to use a EL header off my NA engine with a custom up pipe and cat removed.
exhaust manifold.jpg
I want it to sound like a Porsche, not a Honda.

I'm not going to do a tune yet. Just a verification.
It is a Dyno Dynamics AWD unit

[Hindsight]

I believe the 04 forester xt came with strong internals. Is this correct?

I haven't been in Subaru's long enough to know... maybe one of the resident Subaru gurus on the forum will chime in on that one.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

This week I am going to Turn In Concepts to do a dynamometer run for 2 reasons.

First: To make sure everything in my engine is running proper.
I don't want anything going on that will break the motor, like a lot have experienced.

Second: I want to establish a base line for my engine.
So I can see the result of modifications I make later.

Currently my 2004 FXT 2.5L turbo AVCS DBW engine (93K) is pretty close to stock. The only significant change is that I have no exhaust after the catalytic converters.
The published numbers on my engine are:
210 max HP @ crankshaft
235 max ft-lbs @ crankshaft

Does anyone want to take a guess at my wheel HP and torque numbers will be?

I would also like to get some opinions on my future mod list.
My application is Autocross, track day and daily driver.
I put the list in the order of importance.


Engine reliability mods
Air to water intercooler
STI style oil Pan and pick up.
Accusump
External Oil cooler
Low oil pressure / hot engine LOUD buzzer (marine type)

Help engine breath easier.
K&N air Filter
tgv delete
equal length headers
up pipe without CAt
down pipe with out CAT

Misc improvements
add gauges
Wide band AFR
Boost gauge
AOS system


Performance Mods
bigger turbo
turbo blanket

Please make recommendations as you see fit.
Thanks
Bob

Anybody else have comments or suggestions on this?
Thanks
Bob

[CanadianYank]

Anybody else have comments or suggestions on this?
Thanks
Bob

Not a Suby expert Bob but Im interested in your findings. I'm guessing 30HP more? Good luck and have fun!

Frank

[wleehendrick]

I want it to sound like a Porsche, not a Honda.

But it'll sound like this Porsche:
porsche-924-1.jpg
(pretty much like a Honda)
Not this one:
gt3rs2010_01.jpg
unless you put an H6 in!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Tonight Michael and I both drove the 818 for the first time.
It was only a few hundred feet in and out of the garage.
Michael first comment was that it didn't have very good traction. Every time he would leave out the clutch the tires would spin

His next comment was that he thought he had to push on the brakes pretty hard.

I think both comment were understandable. The R888 were cold and the brand new south bend 2 stage clutch really grips. Michael normally dumps the clutch at 3000 Rpm on his 4wd impreza and he only thing hat slips is the clutch.

Second, He has never driven a car with manual brakes. The power booster increases the pressure by a factor of 6.
Bob

[Quiny]

You may already know this but the proportioning valve needs to be screwed in all the way to have no effect, I never read the instructions and assumed out was bypassing.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

You may already know this but the proportioning valve needs to be screwed in all the way to have no effect, I never read the instructions and assumed out was bypassing.

Hi Quiny, thanks for the suggestion.
I don't have the proportioning valve installed.
Instead of reducing pressure to front brakes, I plan to increase the size of the rear brakes.
I also have antilock actuator installed (plumbed) but not wired yet.
Bob

[Quiny]

I also have antilock actuator installed (plumbed) but not wired yet.
Bob

Do you mean the stock ABS or is this something different? If it is something different please elaborate. I was thinking the same thing about increasing the size of the rears to compensate, I hate the idea of a front proportioning valve.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Do you mean the stock ABS or is this something different? If it is something different please elaborate. I was thinking the same thing about increasing the size of the rears to compensate, I hate the idea of a front proportioning valve.

I am using the stock ABS unit.
I also hate the idea of a front proportioning valve on the 818. I have a plan for the rear brakes see post# ( I will edit when I find it) couldn't find it but here is a picture. Basically changing to a vented rotor with a dual piston caliper should double my rear braking force. Then I will put a proportioning valve on the back if needed.
Bob

IMG_20140629_173104670s.jpg

[metalmaker12]

From my experience with the 818 the brakes are more than we need with the 4pot/2pot setup I am running. I can smoke the tires and come to a hault with great control. As you mention manuel brakes do feel like you have to push harder when you first try them, but once you get used to them, IMO they have a much better feel and control on a lite race car. Abs can't hurt.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Michael and I just had the second biggest day in our 818 life.
The best day was the day we pick up the kits.
Today we spent the afternoon at Turn In Concepts.

Got a Dom tune
measured corner weights
did a bunch of go karting.

First corner weights:
Michael adjusted ride height to 4.5 eyeballing the spring to get them to equal lengths.


Michael was within 1%. Not bad for a rookie.

Also the total weight of 1564 LBS in go kart mode. We might make the magic 818kg number.

[Frank818]

Wow, those are spot on!!! With or without Mike in the car?

I never realized the body panels would weight as much as 300lbs.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Wow, those are spot on!!! With or without Mike in the car?

I never realized the body panels would weight as much as 300lbs.

they don't.
we are in go kart mode. no doors, no windshield, no dash, no nose steel.
10696302_10152785641478428_5178686313402238230_n.jpg

without Michael or I in the car. We won't talk about those numbers. Let's just say either one of us would easily but it over 1800 lbs.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

While we were at Turn In Concepts http://turninconcepts.com/today we had them check out the performance of our engine.
Totally stock 2004 XT 2.5L TD04 Stock Turbo 90k miles
Tune done by Dom Acia of http://getadomtune.com/about.html

After Dom deleted all my CEL codes (evap system and automatic transmission)
He took a look at the power.



Boost was set at 12psi
Out of the box we were at 185whp
He did his magic an raised it to 195.5whp
20141007 dom tune004s.jpg20141007 dom tune006s.jpg20141007 dom tune005s.jpg

I love the way it stays near peak hp from 4000 to 6500 rpms. Means I won't upset the car if I keep the rpm between those 2 points when shifting.
220 ft-lbs torque means 1.48g in 1st (if tires would stick) 0.88G in second and 0.62 G in third. I'm good with that.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Tony and Dom of Turn In Concepts take the 818 out for a spin (wet roads with slicks)
By the way, Tony (dark hair) is 6"2"

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I learned a couple interesting ECU functions yesterday at the tuners.
1. The neutral safety switch and the speedometer must be hooked up for AVCS to work
2. I have a DBW (drive by wire) throttle. I do not have a throttle pedal stop installed. Pushing the pedal al the way down causes an ECU fault and puts it in LIMP mode. Disconnecting battery power for a few seconds will reset the ECU.

LTD
Bob

[svanlare]

Picking up the news a couple of days late. Congrats on the runs, major milestone accomplished!

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Picking up the news a couple of days late. Congrats on the runs, major milestone accomplished!

Thanks Steve,
After scales, dyno, and go karting we had a meeting to discuss modification.

Immediate action Items:
Accusump
AWIC
Pedal Stop
Oil Cooler
motor/trans mounts

[Hindsight]

Regarding the DBW pedal stop.... How do you know where to set the stop?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Regarding the DBW pedal stop.... How do you know where to set the stop?

I had no clue.
This is what I found in the manual.
Says stroke should be 2.05 to 2.24 inches.

bbbb.jpg

[Hindsight]

Ah cool thank you. The manual surprises me...... sometimes it omits things that are critical and other times it defines everything (like gas pedal travel lol).

Adding a note for this in my build notes.

[Jaime]

If you think about it, this is a necessary safety feature. As the pedal goes down, the sensor resistance goes down and the voltage goes up. At some point, the resistance goes down to a point where it looks like a short circuit. If the ECU didn't freak out about this, then if there was ever a short in the pedal wires, the car would get stuck at full throttle.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

If you think about it, this is a necessary safety feature. As the pedal goes down, the sensor resistance goes down and the voltage goes up. At some point, the resistance goes down to a point where it looks like a short circuit. If the ECU didn't freak out about this, then if there was ever a short in the pedal wires, the car would get stuck at full throttle.

My pedal actually has redundant potentiometers in it. That's why it has 6 wires.
PED.jpg

[Mechie3]

Any reason to keep the boost at 12psi? Running a stock downpipe? I used to run my 06 (same engine and turbo as your FXT) at 21 (stock block, plenty of other mods).

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Any reason to keep the boost at 12psi? Running a stock downpipe? I used to run my 06 (same engine and turbo as your FXT) at 21 (stock block, plenty of other mods).

I am not a turbo guy, but 21psi out of a TD04 sounds like a lot.
My up and down pipe are both stock and both have cats.
I asked for at tune at stock pressures for reliability and to get used to driving the car. I am very glad I did. This car at 1564 lbs, is stupid fast.
Dom told me my engine was the same as an STI, if I add a stock STI turbo and intercooler. Then could be at 300+ HP.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

A little off topic, but I guess I can hijack my own thread.

Just got word "Jay likes our bike"
He took it out for an hour ride in the hills around silicon valley.
Bob

[Quiny]

A little off topic, but I guess I can hijack my own thread.

Just got word "Jay likes our bike"
He took it out for an hour ride in the hills around silicon valley.
Bob

That is incredible, what an accomplishment. He must have really enjoyed it to be out an hour. Congratulations, when do they go into production?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

That is incredible, what an accomplishment. He must have really enjoyed it to be out an hour. Congratulations, when do they go into production?

last month was the official release.

[Mechie3]

I am not a turbo guy, but 21psi out of a TD04 sounds like a lot.
My up and down pipe are both stock and both have cats.
I asked for at tune at stock pressures for reliability and to get used to driving the car. I am very glad I did. This car at 1564 lbs, is stupid fast.
Dom told me my engine was the same as an STI, if I add a stock STI turbo and intercooler. Then could be at 300+ HP.
Bob

It was a lot. Pushing the edges of what it can reliably do. Lasted for 4 years before the car was totaled. The cat's would be a big reason not to do that. Stock downpipe has the flat flange too which causes problems.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

It was a lot. Pushing the edges of what it can reliably do. Lasted for 4 years before the car was totaled. The cat's would be a big reason not to do that. Stock downpipe has the flat flange too which causes problems.

Hi Craig
I think I will like my motor curve with 12PSI of boost.
818S.jpg
If I get rid of the cat in the up pipe and go with an exhaust like stickshifts.
Where could I get to raising the boost? (staying with the TD04)
Bob

[svanlare]

Immediate action Items:
Accusump
AWIC
Pedal Stop
Oil Cooler
motor/trans mounts

AWIC and Oil cooler I'm considering what to do in the initial build now. I'll be watching the mods here and on some of the other threads closely as cooling seems to be a recurring theme.

[Stickshift84]

Awesome work guys and great videos!!! Keep up the great work. Seeing your power level puts my car and a bigger build plan in perspective. My engine is hurt but further modified than yours and only making about 14 psi now. So I figure am making maybe 230 hp. It is simply a blast to drive. Cant wait to feel mine once I get it around 300 to the wheels (end goal).

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Michael's first drive

[Frank818]

Were you somehow able to check how good/not so good the rear rad location works? I believe we have to wait for the full body to be on, but just in case you saw something out of the ordinary.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Were you somehow able to check how good/not so good the rear rad location works? I believe we have to wait for the full body to be on, but just in case you saw something out of the ordinary.

We have not run hard enough even for the ecu to turn on the radiator fans yet.
We did about 10 dyno pulls but TIC had a big fan blowing air through the radiator.
I have temporally mounted a fan for the TMIC.
We will not know for sure until hot weather, body on and a track day.
I am confident that there will be no issues.
But I have been wrong before and will be again.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Went to bigger rear brake. Using front calipers on all four wheels. H6 rotor, drilling and grinding to mount the bracket. Brake pad modification also. I maintained the parking Brake. Sorry Rasmus this one is heavier.

Does anyone want to trade me for some matching red shocks?
Bob