Adam's Canadian 13B Rotary 818-SR Build

[Canadian818]

Oh, so that's one coil per plug meaning it's not a wasted spark it's almost like coil on plug, you can control spark ignition and duration. As long as your ECU will allow you to change parms. Mine can if I had these. I start to wonder if I should. loll 19amps max each but since pretty much only one at a time is working then the current draw may well be under 25amps max. That's more than my coilpack which is fused at 10a but those look more powerful.

Yeah I believe they call it sequential, but basically coil on plug. I can definitely adjust dwell and timing, but for now it's way over my head. It seems my intercooler and oil coolers arrive today, so I'll be busy fitting and fabricating for the next week. Does everyone fill their oil coolers and lines when installing? I'm just thinking those lines all the way to the front will take awhile of cranking to prime.

[Frank818]

Yeah sequential firing. But sequential injection makes a much bigger difference over batch firing, rather than sequential firing over wasted spark.

I filled up both hoses to my cooler as well as my cooler. My thermostat hasn't open yet, didn't reach 80C in the driveway.

Where will you fit the cooler? Which bumper or fender opening will feed it?

[Canadian818]

I'm using two of these 25 row coolers in the front "brake ducts"



Picked up my Deka ETX18L today, here's where I'm going to put it.



Also, it looks like my intercooler is going to work. This is a rough fit, finial fit will be after the fender is modified. So it will be on more of an angle once I make the room for the wheels. I'll have to move the filler cap for the gas tank either a foot forward or back.

[Frank818]

I'm using that exact same cooler man, except in black and I have one. And in the back, which I will struggle to direct air into but I'll see later.

On your IC, will the upper pipe route over or under the 1.5" square tube? The top of your IC is very very close to the engine cover's side scoop. Have you test fitted the cover on with the IC installed?


Nice game last night, Crosby, Marchand and Bergeron are the best! Well, Price as well.

[Canadian818]

On your IC, will the upper pipe route over or under the 1.5" square tube? The top of your IC is very very close to the engine cover's side scoop. Have you test fitted the cover on with the IC installed?

The top IC port will go under the frame, shouldn't be a problem. I'm starting the exhaust today, here's what I'm thinking for tip location. Originally I was going to go upside down of this, but this matches the other lines of the bumper better.



I have a question for those with experience building harnesses. I've seen conflicting thoughts on whether or not I need to use a relay between the ignition switch and starter. Some say yes, some say no. I'm not sure why it would be needed, all the heavy current is flowing from the battery directly to the starter. Any opinions?

[Hindsight]

Hey Adam, the exhaust looks really cool! I will be interested to see if you get any fumes in the cabin from that location.

On wiring for the starter, the two relays that sit between the switch and the starter are just there for safety. One of them ensures you can't start the car without the clutch pedal depressed, and the other goes to the keyless entry system. You don't *need* either of those really.... but the one for the clutch is nice to have to keep from cranking over the car while it's in gear and ramming into the car or cement wall parked in front of you. You may be aware of this but the actual relay for the starter is the starter solenoid which is mounted directly to the starter. On my car, I added a stand-alone solenoid (like you'd find on a 60's domestic car) which I bolted to the front inside firewall just under the dash and behind my center console. A thick wire then goes from that all the way back to the starter. It connects to both the starter and the starter solenoid trigger wire. The wire off the ignition switch then just goes to my stand-alone solenoid. The thought process in my doing this is to avoid a very large gauge wire running most of the length of the car, up over the engine while being energized all the time. Now, with my setup, that wire is only hot when I am cranking the starter. Works very nicely.

[Canadian818]

Hey Adam, the exhaust looks really cool! I will be interested to see if you get any fumes in the cabin from that location.

Thanks, and something I have planned should eliminate any chance of exhaust coming forward. Unfortunately that's at least 6 months away.

On wiring for the starter, the two relays that sit between the switch and the starter are just there for safety. One of them ensures you can't start the car without the clutch pedal depressed, and the other goes to the keyless entry system. You don't *need* either of those really.... but the one for the clutch is nice to have to keep from cranking over the car while it's in gear and ramming into the car or cement wall parked in front of you. You may be aware of this but the actual relay for the starter is the starter solenoid which is mounted directly to the starter. On my car, I added a stand-alone solenoid (like you'd find on a 60's domestic car) which I bolted to the front inside firewall just under the dash and behind my center console. A thick wire then goes from that all the way back to the starter. It connects to both the starter and the starter solenoid trigger wire. The wire off the ignition switch then just goes to my stand-alone solenoid. The thought process in my doing this is to avoid a very large gauge wire running most of the length of the car, up over the engine while being energized all the time. Now, with my setup, that wire is only hot when I am cranking the starter. Works very nicely.

Forgot about the clutch switch for the starter. My ecu has a pinout for the clutch, so it's currently wired into that. I'll have to read the manual and see if has any provisions for starting, if not I'll just splice it. Thanks

[xxguitarist]

Based on our experience, yes, high center exhaust exit results in fumes in the cabin.

[Frank818]

That's the best exhaust exit so far to my eyes, again I envy you. Get that running quickly!
Why 3? You got 3 rotors right? The 3rd is the dump tube?

On the IC, I come back again about it, the top of the IC really looks to be above the tube, maybe not the pipe outlet but the top looks like. Just make sure you test fit it with engine cover, it stresses me out not to know if it will hit on the scoop or not.

[Frank818]

Based on our experience, yes, high center exhaust exit results in fumes in the cabin.

Why didn't we see that in FFR's wind tunnel testing and videos?

[Scargo]

Listen to Andrew...

[Canadian818]

That's the best exhaust exit so far to my eyes, again I envy you. Get that running quickly!
Why 3? You got 3 rotors right? The 3rd is the dump tube?

Thanks frank! I'm really happy with the look. IMO the Zonda R is one of the most beautiful race cars ever built, this is my little piece of Pagani. It's a 3-1 collector so it's a single 3" on the other side. The reason for 3 instead of 4 is because I want to get a bezel machined in the shape of a rotor to go around it.

On the IC, I come back again about it, the top of the IC really looks to be above the tube, maybe not the pipe outlet but the top looks like. Just make sure you test fit it with engine cover, it stresses me out not to know if it will hit on the scoop or not.

Haha, relax Frank, it was just hanging there by some wire. It's a very rough location to show you guys. It will actually be completely inside the side sail when finished. I will be sure to test fit the cover before fitting the upper hose though, don't worry, haha.

[Frank818]

IMO the Zonda R is one of the most beautiful race cars ever built

You've said it. Done. We can close this forum, the truth has spoken and nothing will ever come close to it.



2nd one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLvCgXIwqcs

You and I are going to team up and buy one... of its wheel with our 2nd mortgages on the houses.

[Canadian818]

Oh man that second video is sick, I like how he tightens his belt at the beginning of the long strait.

[Canadian818]

Fabbing my exhaust today. I'm going to have to hear shield around the cat, and I'll probably wrap it too. My only other option would be to come strait out from the turbo and doing a big "S" to have the tips where I want them.

[Speedy G]

Looking awesome! One of my favorite builds!

Speedy G

[Canadian818]

Looking awesome! One of my favorite builds!

Speedy G

Thanks Speedy G!

So right after posting that pic I spent about 10 minutes staring at it on the car. The lazy side of me said welder'up, but that other side, the one that's always nagging "you know better Adam", insisted I do it right. In keeping with this builds theme of "what's the hardest possible way to do it, ok like that!", I've decided to pie cut my two 180* bends because I want it to be a tight fit. I'm gonna need more argon....uugghh

[Frank818]

Man oh man there is SPACE in that engine bay!

Careful with that thinking of "you can do it better". You can always do it better until it's perfect, but at what cost. You're going to say that to yourself many times and in the end it will add one 1 year, 2 years, to your build for which after the fact you'd say "it wasn't worth it". I too want all to be absolutely perfect!!! But after a while trying to make it perfect I saw time flying, too fast, and money vanishing, too fast. So now I work quicker and for everything that isn't seen by the eye when the car rolls, I cut corners to catch up that time I previous lost in part. I could've lived with 80% perfect in many areas but no I went to 95-98 but it cost me months for that and no one will see or feel the benefits, not even me.

Depending on your goal, if you have that time and don't care spending it with money in some situations, then yes go for it, you'll be more than happy in the end. But if you plan on driving the car within a "reasonable" time frame, think twice and spend that extra time to where it really matters to you. Maybe the exhaust does!!! I'm not saying it doesn't, I'm just commenting on the thinking and to weigh your "perfect spots to reach".

[Kurk818]

Keep in mind the movement within the exhaust setup during driving. I have close to 3/4" of clearance around my tip penetration at the bottom corner of the rear bumper and still manage to find fiberglass residue transfer after a spirited drive. Also heat transfer.

[bbjones121]

Keep in mind the movement within the exhaust setup during driving. I have close to 3/4" of clearance around my tip penetration at the bottom corner of the rear bumper and still manage to find fiberglass residue transfer after a spirited drive. Also heat transfer.

I am trying to figure this out also. I don't want a big gap, so I am thinking of getting high temp silicone mat and making a tight fit bushing (cut holes in some cooking pan mats) that i will affix to there inside of the bumper.

This should help hold the tips in place. I have about a 1/4 gap around mine. As far as heat, fiberglass can take a lot. If I notice any issues, I will might make a high temp bezel.

[Scargo]

It's hard for me to tell, but I think what is obstructed in the image is a V-band clamp. Seems it might be advantageous to have a flex coupling in there somewhere. It looks good, though!

[Canadian818]

Keep in mind the movement within the exhaust setup during driving. I have close to 3/4" of clearance around my tip penetration at the bottom corner of the rear bumper and still manage to find fiberglass residue transfer after a spirited drive. Also heat transfer.

Thanks for the input. The reason for the tight fit on the tips is to keep them centered while I fab the exhaust. The whole area will be cut out and mesh installed. However your clearance suggestion is still relevant to the mesh, so I'll keep that in mind.

It's hard for me to tell, but I think what is obstructed in the image is a V-band clamp. Seems it might be advantageous to have a flex coupling in there somewhere. It looks good, though!

Yes there's a v-band connection at the turbo. I hadn't considered a flex joint, my plan was to make a mount supporting the muffler to the transmission. In theory, the 13b should move a lot less than the EJ.

[Frank818]

That mount in question, will it absorb high frequency vibrations?

[Canadian818]

That mount in question, will it absorb high frequency vibrations?

I was going to solid mount it with stainless flat bar. I figured the flat bar would allow a little movement.

[wleehendrick]

In theory, the 13b should move a lot less than the EJ.

I don't think so... from videos other builders posted, most of the movement appears to be vertical movement of the tailpipe, there's little roll, but nearly all pitch. The cause of this in the 818 seems to be the wimpy stock trans mount flexing under load, exacerbated by the elimination of the Subie pitch stop. Roll about the crank doesn't look to be an issue, so if you're putting down similar torque with the 13b, you'll have the same pitch issue as if an EJ were doing the twisting.

The movement is pretty pronounced with the stock mounts, much less with upgraded, and I remember seeing someone rigged up a pitch stop to the cross brace which helped further. If it's an issue, your best bet is probably a beefier trans mount, and if that's not enough, rig up a pitch stop.

[Canadian818]

My transmission mount was shortened significantly and then filled with urathane, the engine mounts are much stiffer than stock as well, so I guess we'll see how she moves soon.

[Canadian818]

How much coolant is everyone using? I'm still using the factory radiator.

[Frank818]

so I guess we'll see how she moves soon.

Oh!! You're planning a monster engine start pretty soon?

[Frank818]

How much coolant is everyone using? I'm still using the factory radiator.

Damn, I think I used something like 23L. I had to flush 5 times so I might have lost some and it's more like 22L, but you see the point. Not sure how much coolant stays in Wayne's favorite engine.


I don't like the idea of a flat metal bar to act as a high frequency vibration absorber. It's metal. Metal is not very good to absorb high frequency vibrations cuz it's too dense. Low ones it's better cuz it gives it time to bend but high, it should transfer the vibrations from one side of the bar to the other and not absorb much. Maybe I don't understand what your planning, though.

[RM1SepEx]

Keep in mind the movement within the exhaust setup during driving. I have close to 3/4" of clearance around my tip penetration at the bottom corner of the rear bumper and still manage to find fiberglass residue transfer after a spirited drive. Also heat transfer.

I have 1/4 inch clearance and no contact at all exiting in the lower right corner below the bumper. It's all about the engine and trans mounts. I have Cusco mounts and there it little movement. The stock mounts are like spaghetti. My exhaust pipe isn't very hot at exit (175) but a rotary has a much hotter exhaust

[Frank818]

Adam, why is this rotary having 4 exhausts? Its got 4 rotors and you only got 3?

[Canadian818]

That's a custom 4 rotor race motor, like Mazda used on their 90's LeMans cars. All the RX7's came with 2 rotor's like mine, however there were some 3 rotor cars in Japan. Still working on my new exhaust layout, had to buy 20ft of tubing to get the extra 2ft I needed, and more argon, so much argon.

[Frank818]

Oh so you only got 2 rotors. lolll


Get out man!!! 20ft just for 2? Why? Then I hope you got those 20ft at a huge rebate, like Craig having his titanium bars for, well uhm, free? 2ft of pipes can be get for cheap on internet, I'm curious why you went with 20ft.

And why "so" much argon? Just get a tank and that'll do, trust me, you'll need it for another year.

[Canadian818]

Oh so you only got 2 rotors. lolll


Get out man!!! 20ft just for 2? Why? Then I hope you got those 20ft at a huge rebate, like Craig having his titanium bars for, well uhm, free? 2ft of pipes can be get for cheap on internet, I'm curious why you went with 20ft.

And why "so" much argon? Just get a tank and that'll do, trust me, you'll need it for another year.

No where local would sell by the foot. A performance shop had 5ft sections from vibrant for $145, but a local supplier had 20ft for $170. I couldn't justify buying the vibrant stuff, so now I'm set for a few projects, lol. As for argon, I have a small bottle, just that pie cutting is a lot of welding and a lot of gas is lost back purging.

[iblackwe]

Hi adam,

I am curious to see if you had tried metal supermarkets on 75th st? I got all my exhaust tubing from them for dirt cheap! (I am also in Edmonton). I honestly can't wait until you are finished your build, I have always like the rotary motor and now in an 818 it will be even better. Any reason why your not going with an water to air intercooler?

We will have to get together sometime when both our cars are finished and go for a cruise. I believe there are two other 818's in Calgary, one is complete (Dave's) and I think the other is almost there.

Ian

[Canadian818]

Hey Ian, how did I not know there was another 818 in Edmonton? Crazy. No reason to wait until spring to get together, your more than welcome to come check out my progress and have a chat.

As for the A2A cooler, the only logical reason is weight. Unfortunately, like with every other choice I've made, it's more about the path less traveled.

I did try Metal Supermarket, they're my go to place. However they don't stock what I needed, just 0.125" wall.

[iblackwe]

Yea for sure, I would definitely like to see your progress. I am currently working on the body and interior of my car. At some point this winter I will be pulling the motor again to fix an oil leak I found so I might just have to replace it with a B13 rotary... ha.

Well that is a large intercooler so I am sure it will work 10 fold better than the stock WRX. I would like to know where do you get your exhaust tubing bent? I have yet to see a tubing bender that will do 3" for a reasonable price.

Ian

[Canadian818]

I had previously ordered some U-bends from Columbia River, but now I'm taking a different approach to accomplish some tighter bends.

[Frank818]

You fab'ed this?

[bbjones121]

I had previously ordered some U-bends from Columbia River, but now I'm taking a different approach to accomplish some tighter bends.

Looking good