Ssssly 818 buildup thread

[Frank818]

I am very sorry to see these issues, it is very frustrating!
Have you contacted FFR yet?

I see your panels are red. My white panels from April are near perfect.

Same here, April 2014 seems to be a good month. I call myself lucky on that. I have many other issues but at least so far not this one.

It is in no way a 15k build unless you want to drive a junk box.

Double that to the minimum if you want something with power, great quality and all of it reliable.

[sponaugle]

I am very sorry to see these issues, it is very frustrating!
Same here, April 2014 seems to be a good month. I call myself lucky on that. I have many other issues but at least so far not this one.
Double that to the minimum if you want something with power, great quality and all of it reliable.

Agreed that it is a bummer that you have these issues. My kit , delivered in May, certainly has better fiberglass (white). It is interesting to hear people's point of view in regards to cost vs quality. I certainly would have been happy to pay more for better body work, as that is one area I have no experience in. On the other hand it is a kit car, so learning something new is what it is about!

I hope you get everything sorted so you can get building!

Jeff

[Wayne Presley]

I'm building my 4th 818 right now and all the panels while not perfect/paint quality are definitely useable and will wrap very nicely. All of the aluminum was near perfect for a laser cutter on aluminum.

Have you called FFR yet? What was their response?

[sponaugle]

All of the aluminum was near perfect for a laser cutter on aluminum.

I forgot to mention, my aluminum was also pretty much perfect. I could not have done better cuts myself. Very clean on both sides.
Jeff

[ssssly]

I contacted FFR and have not received a response as of yet.

As for the "Its a kit car, what did you expect?" point of view. I expect what I expect for every product I purchase new from any company. That the product provided be free of manufacturer defects, or that the company repair the manufacturer defects at no cost to me, or that the company replace the defective item with one free from manufacturer defect at no cost to me.

I fully expected that it would need to be smoothed and painted for a "show quality" finish. That is however not what I am looking at.

Every single panel needs to be brought down to the bare fiberglass. And then every single corner and bend needs to be repaired and relayed, filled, and then prepped and painted. Is the difference between 2 days and $1500-$2000 and 3 weeks at $8,000-$10,000.

The same with the frame. I now need to send it out, have all the powder coat stripped, welds ground down properly, frame cleaned properly and re-powder coated. Which will cost close to $2000, and take nearly a month to get it back. All on top of the $400 I already paid to powder coat it.

The aluminum is all scrap. They are only good for making templates. Trying to hand sand that amount of slag off such a thin piece of aluminum would only result in non-uniform thickness. Which would look just as bad if not worse than the slag when painted.

Guess I could block mount them, and then glass table sand them flat (like old school, back yard cylinder head decking). But again, I shouldn't have to.

I have no problem paying money to make something the way I want it. I do have issue with paying money to fix manufacturer defects in a new item.

And the bigger question to me, is why FFR thinks this level of quality is acceptable? A FFR employee personally handled every single piece that was shipped to me, checked off that it was there (even checked off a few were there that weren't) and then shipped it. Saying, yes! This is the quality of product that FFR should be known for, and that FFR customers deserve.

In all, with options, I paid $12000 dollars for this kit. Almost 3 months of my enlisted take home pay. And I think I deserve better for 3 months work. I know how hard I worked and the amount of pride I put into what I did to earn that money. And there was no pride taken in the products that were sent to me. Or at least I can't conceive of how somebody could have been proud of it.

Which is a shame. Because after the amount of R&D that went into this kit and the accomplishment it should be, the people who are making the components should be able to be proud of what they have accomplished.

On the up side, the Stewart Transport guy was great. Super friendly, polite, courteous and went further out of his way than I would have expected to ensure he got the kit to me. And 3 days ahead of schedule on top of it.

[AZPete]

Yikes, I didn't realize every fiberglass panel, every aluminum panel and the frame were all screwed up. The photos didn't show that much.

[Frank818]

I contacted FFR and have not received a response as of yet.

Ok but what did the person on the phone say? Or you had to leave a voice mail?

[FFRSpec72]

Plain and simple, their fiberglass work is not the best, I have all sorts of issues with my MkII Challenge car where they joined the seams and thus I have layers of gel coat and fiberglass mixed and thus cracks. At lease the 818 dos not have seams that I have to worry about.

[RM1SepEx]

my thin aluminum is perfect, the thick aluminum is very rough, he plasma cutter was run too fast

My powder coating is crap, as I work on the car more bad areas keep popping up. Flaking off the brackets, areas with rust that allows it to peel off in several others. Some areas had coating that was never re-flowed. They need to increase the price and do a better job of prep. I shouldn't have to repair bad areas with POR15 and black paint.

My body is a major problem, I was standing within 6 feet of Dave Smith when he told us hat the white demo car at the open house was just buffed out by Tony Zullo in a couple hrs... NO WAY for ANY of the bodies that I've seen... No paint? what a joke I can't see how anyone could do an 818 without at least a full week of bodywork, voids, corners without complete filling, waves in the gel coat etc...

FFR answer, they gave me a pint of gel coat to match... They are always pleasant and friendly however their solutions are always disappointing.

Wayne, I think you and Erik get different discussions and support than the rest of us based your ongoing relationships and on my discussions with other early builders. Frustrations run high and we all work through it.

[GUNS]

Brooker,

I'd send those panels back. Mine aren't perfect, but they are no where near that bad (chassis #10)/. Like others have said, my thin aluminum is fine, thicker pieces are a bit rough. Welds and powder coat on my frame are also bad.

I feel your frustrations as well. I placed my order for a no paint 818 when it was first announced. It wasn't until after I received my car that FFR changed the language to "minimal paint and body work." I also paid for carbon fiber aero which turned out to be fiber glass that kinda looks like carbon. The list goes on. Every time I get to a new phase of the build there is always something wrong or just not quite right. Most if not all the defects are recoverable, but like you said it's not something you would expect from a company that has been in the business for as long as they have and pride themselves on quality.

On a side note, what do other kit car companies like Superlite and Ultima do for their gel coat bodies? Is it safe to assume that the quality on those bodies is much better?

Good luck with your build man. Try not to get too bitter right off the bat. Even with all of the problems, I've had a blast with my build. I think it'll all be worth it in the long run.

[ssssly]

Not bitter. I will build a great car.

FFR will either replace the improperly manufactured component or pay to have them repaired and or remade.

Some more pics.

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[ssssly]

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[ssssly]

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[ssssly]

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[RM1SepEx]

Your side panels/rear fenders are better than mine...

[theburner9]

looks like some of my panels. I haven't tried to talk to FFR about it yet though.

[Mechie3]

I think yours look similar to mine, though the white might hide imperfections a little better as you don't get the red/white contrast.

[theburner9]

I thought I was going to be the only one with significant issues. Maybe FFR can hurry up with the plastic panels and at least give us a significant break on them if not replace the panels that are bad at no charge.

[Frank818]

Maybe FFR can hurry up with the plastic panels and at least give us a significant break on them if not replace the panels that are bad at no charge.

What makes you think the plastic panels would be defect-free? The manufacturing is different than fiberglass and there cannot be defects? Just asking cuz I know nothing about that.

[Mechie3]

What makes you think the plastic panels would be defect-free? The manufacturing is different than fiberglass and there cannot be defects? Just asking cuz I know nothing about that.

Depending on the process and how they do it, it could be farmed out. This has several benefits including the supplier is now on the hook for quality control and process control (though they might raise the price on FFR if they're too picky and their process isn't consistent). The process is also likely much more automated. The worst processes are those that require skilled labor. A change in workforce, a guy out sick, or someone having a bad day affects your product. None of those affect a machine if all the guy is doing is pushing a button. If the process is good enough you end up with better parts for less money.

The only way I see it done in house is if it's vacuum formed and not injection molded. Still don't think FFR would buy the machinery for that though.

[wleehendrick]

I have fairly early (#52) white panels and some of the same defects, but not nearly as many. Overall, I'm a little disappointed, but accepting given the price of the kit. My Aluminum panels are nearly perfect, although I did have to de-burr the firewall, that's expected. For the steel parts, although there was some weld splatter, my powdercoat seems fine, and I've been working on the chassis for a while now. White does hide defects, and I'm happy with the appearance of the panels I've polished/waxed/buffed out.

FFR has a history of producing bodies requiring paint, and old habits are hard to break, I guess. QC and workmanship should be better, IMHO, but being in the defense/aerospace industry, I'm sure that if you were to impose quality standards/processes like AS9100, given the overhead and labor rates, the price would have to go up dramatically. I think that Dave set an aggressive price target for the 818 and they've been a victim of their own success, struggling to meet demand and rushing through with a lack of attention to detail at times.

Interestingly, I was watching "How It's made: Dream Cars" and they showed the construction of the Alfa Romeo 4C body panels. They use SMC (sheet molded composite) fiberglass body panels. This is a much more consistent process, and less labor intensive, than hand lay up. However, I'm sure it would require a more significant tooling investment than the current molds. Given the success of the 818, Hopefully Dave S will consider a more high-tech construction method in the future.

[RM1SepEx]

The panels are not being done at the Tow Rd location anymore... As of my visit 2 weeks ago

[theburner9]

The panels are not being done at the Tow Rd location anymore... As of my visit 2 weeks ago

Does this mean they are now doing plastic panels? or are they still fiberglass but supposedly better quality?

[wleehendrick]

In the last email, Dave mentioned the Carbon Fiber production has been outsourced, and are now 'perfect' autoclaved, pre-preg. No mention of the FG.

[xxguitarist]

The panels are not being done at the Tow Rd location anymore... As of my visit 2 weeks ago

This has been the case for a while. When we visited in the spring, they were being made out of house too, at least all the main ones.

They are still gelcoat & FG, and some of the defects seen in this thread are a function of the mold prep. They're apparently using clay to fill the sharp corners of the mold to improve release, as opposed to a designed, permanent radius.

Some of the stuff pictured looks to be clay that came off with the part, other is just the -eh- quality that you get out of a less-controlled process like smearing clay into a corner by hand. There are certainly better processes, but the bodies we looked at seemed to be decent.
We think we'll be able to get by fine with some slightly creative wrap positioning, but we're also not after a show car.

[ssssly]

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[ssssly]

And one to show that it is every single exterior tim piece. All the mesh is burnt and slagged as well.

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[Frank818]

Wow, none of my alu parts have anything close to that. In fact I could not find any discoloration, splatter, rough edges, etc.

[ssssly]

Now for bubbled and ready to flake powder coat and dippy, overworked welds.

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[ssssly]

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[GUNS]

Yea, mine isn't nearly that bad. I would almost want to send everything back to them and tell them to try again. That really sucks man, I know you must be frustrated.

[Mechie3]

It looks like the gas for the cutting process was intermittent causing it to oxidize vs a clean cut.

[Frank818]

On the powder coat, I do have a few little bubbles, but like I just said 7 words ago, "little". Not nearly as big as yours and certainly not as many! Looks like you don't have an inch without a bubble, no clean surface.

Now, body panels, alu panels and frame are 3 different things. I wonder how all 3 "passed" the FFR QC. Maybe the same person was "looking" at them.

[ssssly]

Here is the email I received from Joe S today. Notice how instead of the wording used in all FFR advertising, "composite body panels which enable a no-paint finish." the body is now referred to as "RAW material that requires finishing."

Hello Brooker,



Here is the link for the digital manual 818 Assembly Manual



Missing items have been written up, and will be sent.



The spacers are going to be a little tight or loose in some spots, from welding tolerances. Bare VS powder frame will also change this as well.



All of the aluminum is laser cut at FFR, I’ve never had issues with edging of the aluminum. The components we give are still raw aluminum, most customers use the panels as they are. If you wish to modify them, then it is up to you. send me photos if you wish so I can determine if it is out of spec.



Can you please send some photos of the powder coating your questioning.



I am going to send you a gel coat repair kit, to touch up the areas. I do not see anything in your photos that is out of spec, it is the same as all the panels that we have here. All of the pieces are still considered RAW material, that require finishing. Either finishing the edges if you wish to run just the gel coated body, or prep for paint.



Thank you,



Joe S.

[Aloha818]

Welcome back to the mainland and congrats on receiving your kit!

It is a little overwhelming when you actually receive the kit and start going through all the inventory and realizing, for really the first time, what you have gotten yourself into! I know I did.

I looked at your posting history and prior to receiving your kit your posts primarily revolved around engine building and hubs. As you mention in your opening post to this build thread you mention your experience with engine building and tuning. As it appears that you have not built a FFR car before, it would have seemed prudent to have reviewed and posted about 818 building prior to and after ordering your kit. The panel quality, welding splatter, and powder coating, as delivered quality has been well documented by myself and others.

It looks like you ordered your kit in March this year, I spent most of the spring and summer, along with RM1Sepex, Metalmaker and others working on paint prep and paint, and during this time reporting and posting pics of specific blemishes and voids in the gelcoat. Both Wayne and Wallace posted about spending several thousands on beautiful paint jobs. I am sure FFR would have refunded your money any time during your wait if you explained that the kit might not live up to your expectations.

Please do not take my comments as controversial or as to minimize the fact that FFR should have to do a better job. I just want to provide some balance to others that might read these posts. This kit design is now over a year old and the information is out there, so don't be surprised that you receive the same kit that everyone else has. Everyone on this forum has been very helpful and supportive. And very little, if any confrontational posting, please do not take my comments in that light.

Once you start actually building, the excitement returns and you will get past the defects!

[Dave Smith]

I've read this entire thread and would like to offer my solution. First of all thank you for your service to our country and for your business. I have been doing this for almost 20 years and all I can say is that this post is not an accurate reflection of our product or company. The laser cut aluminum pieces that we provide with the kits are exceptional. The ones shown should not look like that and we're happy to replace them. Same goes for the fiberglass and powder-coating. They do not all look like that no way. To say that all of them are junk is emotional and not true. This post makes the kits we sell look like garbage and that is not the case. The 818 is exceptional in so many ways and I want to personally get to the bottom of every single one of these pictures and claims. I could replace parts but I suspect there is something more at work here and I want to solve this problem fully.

My solution is simple.

I will immediately refund your entire purchase price and arrange for a transport company to pick up your kit as quickly as possible (days not weeks). I want it unmolested and exactly as you have it there to be delivered to my dock for my personal inspection and report.

I am offering to fly you out to Factory Five at my expense, pay for a hotel and rental car, at any time of your choosing to allow you to tour the plant, inspect the welding department, molding department, chassis assembly and packaging areas. At that time you may personally select from a line of four or five completed 818 kits, all identical and all ready for shipment. You can inspect the frame, body panels, aluminum, packaging and parts of the kit you select. I will then ship that exact kit to you, at my expense, as quickly as possible so that you have exactly what you want (you will have to pay for the kit). IF the kit and what we sell does not meet your expectations, then you have your full refund and will not waste any further time.

That is my offer. I’ve never done this before and am happy to speak to you at your convenience.

Prediction. You will be our best customer and you will build an exceptional 818 and you will know, like almost every person we've ever built a car for, that ours is a company of exceptional people and products.

[Mechie3]

Quite the offer!

[Wayne Presley]

Now THAT is customer service!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[matteo92065]

Wow. I have never read anything like that. Amazing.