Sponaugle's H6 EZ30R 818S

[longislandwrx]

wow. you are going to need more engine stands

[Mechie3]

I think you need more engines, just to be safe.

[JAubin]

Damn that's quite the score. I think the better move would be more 818(s) to put the motors in. Might as well get an R and a C...

[sponaugle]

wow. you are going to need more engine stands

I think you need more engines, just to be safe.

Damn that's quite the score. I think the better move would be more 818(s) to put the motors in. Might as well get an R and a C...

Seee. this is why I love you guys. Such a supporting and understanding environment. When I was unpacking of the crates last night I said the exact same thing. I need more engine stands! Actually I do need to get another more beefy engine stand as I am about to start a rebuild on my GT-R VR38DETT engine, and those things are topheavy.

I did talk to Kelford about the cams. The were indeed a special run, and are custom steel billet cams ($). The only downside is that Kelford said I should not run them without a DLC coating on the buckets. Have you guys heard of that before?

A bit of google search says that is referring to "Diamond Like Coating"... I found lots of reference but no real links of someone who actually does the coating in small scale. Thoughts?

Jeff

[Mechie3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamond-like_carbon

That search term might help you find better results.

[Evan78]

I wonder if WPC is a viable substitute for what Kelford is recommending. I think individual batches are fairly inexpensive.

http://www.wpctreatment.com/documents/Why_WPC.pdf

[longislandwrx]

Actually I do need to get another more beefy engine stand as I am about to start a rebuild on my GT-R VR38DETT engine, and those things are topheavy.

My OTC dream $tand, although their cheaper ones are just as nice.

otc-1735b.gif

http://www.factoryconnection.com DLC coats motorcycle parts... looks like they do it in house, or at least could point you in the right direction.

I saw your post on NAS and one guys used it on his motorsports parts, so it may be a good lead.

[sponaugle]

My OTC dream $tand, although their cheaper ones are just as nice.
otc-1735b.gif
http://www.factoryconnection.com DLC coats motorcycle parts... looks like they do it in house, or at least could point you in the right direction.
I saw your post on NAS and one guys used it on his motorsports parts, so it may be a good lead.

Indeed it was. I contacted the guy at Morgan, and they can do DLC coatings. Cost is $1500 for a batch, pretty much regardless of size. I want to do 48 buckets ( 12 buckets in each head, and two sets of heads ). Of course I have to make sure the clearance is right as the buckets are all different sizes. I may do a few extra buckets of the thicker variety as it is always possible to machine down the valve stem just a bit.

The EZ30R buckets are slightly smaller in diameter then the EJ ones, and the stock intake ones are a very complicated piece owing to the variable lift. In my case I am using the exhaust cam buckets on both sides.

The exhaust side looks just like an EJ. The buckets are of the same kind of construction, with the size printed on the bottom.. Ranging from 4.32 to 5.59.


The intake valves are much longer and stick up way past the retainers. This allows the dual lift bucket to follow one of two different cam paths. Since the intake buckets are so complicated they only come in one thickness, and you use the very small bucket you see here on the top of the valve to change the spacing.



With the small bucket off the valve top is similar to the exhaust side, just a lot taller. You can also see the oil supply hole in the side of the bucket hole, as that is what gets oil pressure when the lift is turned on.



With these cams I am getting rid of the multi-lift as the billet steel cams don's support it. That also reduced the weight of the valve train because the lift buckets are pretty heavy.

Jeff

[Aero STI]

Jeff, we do very exotic coatings at my work. DLC isn't really all that exotic, but we can do that. Usually we lay down a few hundred angstroms for extreme scratch resistance, so 2-4 microns like what is suggested for the forks seems excessive. I'm personally interested in this, so I'll ask a few of the coating scientists if depositing DLC on buckets with our equipment is plausible. Height is usually the biggest limiting factor in our coaters.

[Scargo]

It seems that in extreme applications that the coatings are very helpful for piston wrist pins, cams and buckets.
I just spent about $300 for new buckets because the cams had worn them so excessively that they were unusable for my new build.

[sponaugle]

Jeff, we do very exotic coatings at my work. DLC isn't really all that exotic, but we can do that. Usually we lay down a few hundred angstroms for extreme scratch resistance, so 2-4 microns like what is suggested for the forks seems excessive. I'm personally interested in this, so I'll ask a few of the coating scientists if depositing DLC on buckets with our equipment is plausible. Height is usually the biggest limiting factor in our coaters.

Thanks for looking. I'm not sure how much is typically done in a case like this. The purpose is to add hardness and prevent the steel billet cam from wearing the buckets quickly. Size wise, the buckets are pretty small, about an 1.5 inches tall or so. Let me know what you find out. I have 48 buckets total to 'coat'.

It seems that in extreme applications that the coatings are very helpful for piston wrist pins, cams and buckets.
I just spent about $300 for new buckets because the cams had worn them so excessively that they were unusable for my new build.

Yea, there are some wrist pins you can get that are DLC coated. I think the super heavy duty ones for the GT-R (for >1500whp builds) are DLC coated (As well as heavy).

There are some long threads on Nasioc about cams and bucket wear. It seems that a surprising number of people have had either cam lobes wear down, or buckets damaged. I have personally never seen that, but then again I usually break something before I get to that kind of milage.

Jeff

[Frank818]

Spare parts? I thought you were fitting all the parts/engines in the 818? No spare.

[Aero STI]

Thanks for looking. I'm not sure how much is typically done in a case like this. The purpose is to add hardness and prevent the steel billet cam from wearing the buckets quickly. Size wise, the buckets are pretty small, about an 1.5 inches tall or so. Let me know what you find out. I have 48 buckets total to 'coat'.

I spoke to one of the guys this morning, he said the thickest coatings we do are typically in the 10's of nanometers. You're hitting the parts with an ION (plasma) beam and then injecting acetylene into the beam, or filling the chamber with acetylene and injecting argon into the beam. He said putting micron thick coatings is doable as long as the process parameters are dialed in. It turns out the department that I manage is a heavy user of this for machined parts, so this guy thought it was cool I was interested in knowing more about the process. The ION beam isn't simply depositing sp^2 or sp^3 and building up the surface, it is also removing some material in the process. So, even at 2-4 microns thick it's not purely additive. I put in a call to the guy that spent a few years developing DLC coatings. I'm waiting to hear back from him. He's a good friend and a gearhead. No promises, but if anyone is willing to do this at my company, he would be the guy.

[Aero STI]

Jeff, I spoke to the "expert" on DLC at my company. He gave me way more information about the different methods of coating DLC. Our technique would be an experiment vs. tried and true. A coating would be deposited, at best it would do what you need, at worst it would wear off quickly and the part would behave as it would without a coating. The biggest concern is the throat on the entrance chamber to that coater because it is only 1" tall. It peaked his interest and we're going to try it out on some buckets for my CRF450R supermoto, but the outfits selling this as a service would be a much better route for you to take. Sorry if that's a let down.

[sponaugle]

Spare parts? I thought you were fitting all the parts/engines in the 818? No spare.

That's right..I forgot to mention I'll be running an EZ30R at each corner of the car... one per wheel.

Jeff, I spoke to the "expert" on DLC at my company. He gave me way more information about the different methods of coating DLC. Our technique would be an experiment vs. tried and true. A coating would be deposited, at best it would do what you need, at worst it would wear off quickly and the part would behave as it would without a coating. The biggest concern is the throat on the entrance chamber to that coater because it is only 1" tall. It peaked his interest and we're going to try it out on some buckets for my CRF450R supermoto, but the outfits selling this as a service would be a much better route for you to take. Sorry if that's a let down.

No worries, and thank you for looking into it. I have a quote from a place in CA that can do it, and I'm waiting to hear back from a place on the east coast. I'll post up what I find out. I am curious how long the buckets will last without a coating. I'll ask Kelford.

Jeff

[Pearldrummer7]

GT-R VR38DETT engine

Now that would be a cool donor engine. I don't know how you could make it cooperate transmission/electronic wise, but .... think of the power!

[sponaugle]

Oh one other interesting this:

Here are the various Subaru cam specs:



All of the factory numbers are from the factory datasheets, which means they are more like 'advertised' numbers, not real numbers. Subaru does not specify the valve lift they use for the duration measurements, but based on past experience it is either .5mm, or even just 'contact'. For example the 2004 STI cams are shown as having 240 degrees of duration, but most aftermarket shops measure it at 204-206 degrees at .050" lift.

I put the Kelford numbers at the bottom, both the real, and the 'advertised' numbers. I'm not sure if the advertised numbers really match up to the Subaru specs, but they are close.

Here is what I am curious about: On the intake side these kelford cams have the same lift as stock. They are slightly longer in duration, but most interestingly the have a different centerline. The stock cam centerline is 488/128 degrees (488 measured from TDC of combustion, 128 degrees from TDC of exhaust/intake stroke). The Kelford cam has a 470/110 degree centerline. That means the Kelford cam opens earlier (more advanced) then the stock cams. The stock cam AVCS system can change by as much as 40 degrees, so this means the Kelford cams are similar to the stock cams running 18 degrees of AVCS advance.

The exhaust Kelford cam has more lift then stock, and more duration, and a slightly later centerline, again increasing overlap.

Of course all of this is based around using the 'advertised' numbers. If you look at the actual raw numbers from Kelford (the spec sheet numbers), the overlap with no AVCS is only 2 degrees. It is only when you try to 'convert' the numbers to 'advertised' that things look different. Also the Kelford spec is measured at 1mm of valve lift, which is even less then the standard 0.050".

It is possible that the factory numbers are really measured at something like 0.5mm of lift, which means that even with 5-10 degrees of active AVCS you still really have very little overlap.

What I need is a way to just get a picture of the cam profile of each!

Jeff

[sponaugle]

Now that would be a cool donor engine. I don't know how you could make it cooperate transmission/electronic wise, but .... think of the power!

yea.. that would be cool.... The only problem is the height. It is a very tall engine.. but hey anything is possible!

[sponaugle]

I am working on inventorying my score. One of the engines I got was an EZ30D (the first gen EZ30 motor). It is similar to the 2nd gen, but has a single combined exhaust port. I am not going to use it... so.. if anyone here on FF818 wants the motor, and are willing to come to my house to get it, it is yours for free.

Only restriction is you have to bring a couple of friends with you help move it. I'm in the west hills in Portland on Skyline.

Jeff

[sponaugle]

I got some time over the weekend to get back into the 818, which felt good!

I connected the battery, checked for shorts, and turned the ignition on for the first time. No Smoke!



With the 04 STI ECU plugged in, I married the AP



Jeff Perrin stopped by and helped me weld up the downpipe. Once I get the body on I'll add the muffler section.



I worked a bit on the turbo compressor output. I need to get a few 45 degree silicon bends, but it will be a very short connection to the intercooler.



I also got the radiator mounted up. Turns out I could use the Perrin rad mounts combined with a few small spacers:



I also installed the rear axles, which are 06 STI front axles with the front STI inner CVs and the rear outer STI CVs. These axles are about 5/8” longer than the factory five ones, but I had no problem extending the hubs out a bit with the links. I did order a 7” upper lateral link, as that one could use some more range.

[sponaugle]

I got one of those vacuum systems for filling the coolant. I connected it to the garage/shop air and pulled a vacuum in the system to check for leaks. Once it was above 25" I removed the air and let it sit. You can quickly see if you have any leaks. Fortunately my system was tight and had no problem holding the vacuum.

With that done, I connected the line to a 5 gallon bucket of coolant and it sucked it all in save about 1.4 gallons. Super slick and easy, and it realy helps to eliminate air bubbles. Took about 3 mins to do the entire system.

This is a tool any car guy/gal should have. It makes refilling the system so easy and painless, even with a complicated layout like the 818.

Video of the vacuum test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpzuj5-xbmY

With that done, I connected the starter up so I could make sure the oil system was working.

Here is a video of the engine turning over. I removed the spark plugs so there is no compression, which makes it an easy job for the starter. The pressure measurement is at the back of the block. 88psi of oil pressure is pretty good, of course the oil and engine are cold.

Here s a video of the starter cranking the engine over:



Jeff

[Kurk818]

Glad to see you making more progress. We all want to see your build in action. Keep it up.

[sponaugle]

Glad to see you making more progress. We all want to see your build in action. Keep it up.

Thanks Kurk! I am looking forward to taking it for a drive! I need to get a few parts to finish the intake tract and then I can fire it up. I need to get this thing done, because I have an R32 Skyline from Japan inbound in about a month... and I know that will be a distraction!

Jeff

[Harley818]

Your build is looking good.
That vacuum system looks slick......I'm not 100% that I got out all the air bubbles. Where did you get it?

[sponaugle]

Your build is looking good.
That vacuum system looks slick......I'm not 100% that I got out all the air bubbles. Where did you get it?

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

$125 on amazon. Totally worth it.

Jeff

[Kurk818]

Thanks Kurk! I am looking forward to taking it for a drive! I need to get a few parts to finish the intake tract and then I can fire it up. I need to get this thing done, because I have an R32 Skyline from Japan inbound in about a month... and I know that will be a distraction!

Jeff

Wow, thats awesome. Lots of men wish they could do what you do. Keep it up. And of course, we love pics

[STiPWRD]

I need to get this thing done, because I have an R32 Skyline from Japan inbound in about a month... and I know that will be a distraction!

Jeff

I wish I had your problems

[sponaugle]

I got a quote back from BryCoat in regards to the bucket coatings that was very reasonable. The tech there suggested I consider Titanium Carbonnitride.

http://www.brycoat.com/coating-servi...ings/ticn.html

From Brycoat it would bt $12 a bucket. From IHC I can get a real DLC coating, but it would be $60 per bucket.

Is anyone familiar with TiCN?

Also, it is required to take the parts to 750F for this process. Anyone see a problem with that? The buckets are steel of course, but would they soften because of that temperature?

Andrew: Could you by change ask you material experts?


Jeff

[sponaugle]

I wish I had your problems

I prefer to think of them as space-time compression and optimization challenges. My wife however thinks of them more as "Jeff is tinkering again".

Jeff

[Aero STI]

I got a quote back from BryCoat in regards to the bucket coatings that was very reasonable. The tech there suggested I consider Titanium Carbonnitride.

http://www.brycoat.com/coating-servi...ings/ticn.html

From Brycoat it would bt $12 a bucket. From IHC I can get a real DLC coating, but it would be $60 per bucket.

Is anyone familiar with TiCN?

Also, it is required to take the parts to 750F for this process. Anyone see a problem with that? The buckets are steel of course, but would they soften because of that temperature?

Andrew: Could you by change ask you material experts?


Jeff

I checked with my SME...

"TiCN is very hard but not as low friction as DLC. DLC is great for reducing friction/stiction. It is readily oxidized so no combustion areas. Look at what high RPM race engines are using"

He offered this article: http://www.stle.org/assets/document/..._Polishing.pdf

Also, "Vacuum ion implantation of carbon is common. Sort of a super carbonizing surface hardener"

So are you ultimately trying to reduce wear from friction, or add hardness to the top of the bucket? I would put a lot of weight in the recommendations given by brycoat. I imagine they know their stuff.

[longislandwrx]

Jeff Perrin stopped by and helped me weld up the downpipe.

I have an R32 Skyline from Japan inbound in about a month... and I know that will be a distraction!

damn-it-feels-good-to-be-a-gansta.gif

[sponaugle]

damn-it-feels-good-to-be-a-gansta.gif

Hahaha. That is awesome. I even work in a cube!

[sponaugle]

Well, tonight was the night to see what I did wrong. Oil in the motor, gas in the gas tank, coolant in the coolant system, and a downpipe with no muffler or cat.

I checked some connections, made sure the engine would spin over and not catch on any cables etc... then key on:



It ran! It didn't catch fire! It didn't shoot rod bearings out the oil pan. It was also loud. I forgot how loud these engine are with no mufflers or cats. There was a bit of smoke from oil that I spilled on the header, but that will go away once I get it hot.

Oil and fuel pressure looked good. I need to clean up a few small thing before I roll it out of the shop and let it warm up, but no fluids on the floor either.

Feels good to have the engine running, especially since I built the engine.

Jeff

[TouchStone]

Congrats! Its always exciting to see another one of these start up. And I cant wait to start mine.

[Kurk818]

Right on!! Congrats. Huge step and an awesome motivator! Keep this pace going and you'll be done in no time.

[Frank818]

Nice!

[longislandwrx]

BLFJkKZCAAAleFG.jpg

awesome job man.

[C.Plavan]

Congrats!

[STiPWRD]

Congrats! Awesome job

[sponaugle]

Thanks guys! Indeed I am driven to get this thing registered and plated so I can drop the EZ30R in. Of course before I do that I'll have to turn up the boost on this 35R and see how 500whp feels. Reminder to self: Order that Racelogic TC box today.

I am mostly just excited that nothing caught on fire.

Jeff