Sponaugle's H6 EZ30R 818S

[Hindsight]

Jeff,

Have you installed a race logic traction control system in any of your other vehicles? Seems like the installation should be fairly straight forward in the 818 so long as you retain the ABS system no? I have never been a fan of traction control because my experience with it has been with OEM systems that kill performance instead of improve it (my old S4 would just kill the throttle for like 3 or 4 seconds on wheel slip). But after reading up more on the race logic system, I think I am completely sold.

[sponaugle]

Jeff,

Have you installed a race logic traction control system in any of your other vehicles? Seems like the installation should be fairly straight forward in the 818 so long as you retain the ABS system no? I have never been a fan of traction control because my experience with it has been with OEM systems that kill performance instead of improve it (my old S4 would just kill the throttle for like 3 or 4 seconds on wheel slip). But after reading up more on the race logic system, I think I am completely sold.

Yes, I have the 8-cylinder version in my GTO:

Results here: http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=522194
Install details here: http://www.ls1gto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=522370

You don't need to 'retain the ABS'.. you just need to retain the ABS wheel speed sensors. Everything else could be deleted.

The graphs in the results thread are very telling.

This one tells the story pretty well:


Good Stuff.

[Plebeian]

Jeff, I just read this thread today, WOW. You are setting the bar very high. I have a couple questions for you. What are you going to do about a rollbar to be allowed to drag race? PIR is not fond of fast convertibles without a full halo cage (based on how they have treated me in my Cobra). Since your car will be street driven, is the 105 octane of E85 (available at multiple pumps around town) not high enough that you require the E98? Was that you tracking your GTR at PIR last weekend?

[Hindsight]

Thanks for the info Jeff, I'm definitely sold.

Regarding PIR....... I remember how many times I showed up to race and was sent home before finally getting everything just "right" to be able to drag race there. Not fun. Regarding the halo cage, I'm curious about that as well because it applies to more than just PIR - any NHRA sanctioned track requires it but there is some grey area (mostly due to the fact that our cars are roadsters and not convertibles - but good luck arguing that with the tech inspectors - especially PIR). This issue comes up a lot with the FFR Roadster guys. Lots of threads on the roadster forum (especially the "other" roadster forum) discussing this.

[Turn In Concepts]

Thanks. I did a quick new set of lines on one of the pictures:



They are much closer together now.



Thanks! It has been a fun build so far.

That video is hilarious! I am going to have to give Jeff a hard time on Monday. I have those wheels in the attic of my shop.. they are just too ugly to keep looking at!




Yes... Mick was part of the PDXTuning gang so I've know him for a long time. He has a very cool yellow WRX wagon track machine with a dry sump setup.

I think your LCA line is off a bit. It should be running through the center of the pivot point of the ball joint which is further down. Your original picture set was correct.

[Wayne Presley]

I think your LCA line is off a bit. It should be running through the center of the pivot point of the ball joint which is further down. Your original picture set was correct.

nope, second pic is correct

[Turn In Concepts]

You're right. I was looking at it backwards. For some reason I was thinking of an Evo control arm likely due to the fact that I was under one this morning.

Tony

[sponaugle]

Entirely unrelated to my 818, I had my GT-R on the dyno last night. I changed out the turbochargers for a slightly larger set and upgraded the fuel system with a pair of W460s and 6 1300cc injectors. A nice 752whp. Car is snappy.




However good news on the 818 front as my heads are done and ready for pickup, so I can get this car rolling!

Jeff

[bompus]

my GT-R

Lucky! Rub it in why don't you

[Wayne Presley]

Car is snappy.

Jeff

Hi my name is Jeff and I have a problem with understatements....

[Hindsight]

Right?? Snappy is a miata.... Or a Focus SVT.

[MrDude_1]

Right?? Snappy is a miata.... Or a Focus SVT.

I actually thought it was an accurate statement. You have to remember how much the GT-R weighs.

Then again, I referred to a 220hp 400lb sportbike and a 110hp 200lb supermoto as "snappy"... so maybe I just like the term too.

[Hindsight]

Yeah there is a reason they call it "Godzilla".

Jeff, just think, you'll only need about 360hp in the 818 to get similar acceleration performance (assuming you can get traction of course).

[sponaugle]

Hi my name is Jeff and I have a problem with understatements....

Hahahah. I guess that is better than overstatements!

Yeah there is a reason they call it "Godzilla".
Jeff, just think, you'll only need about 360hp in the 818 to get similar acceleration performance (assuming you can get traction of course).

Yea.. good point! My GT-R weighs in at about 3840 lbs. My 818 with the EZ30R will probably be something in the 1900-2000 lbs. That puts my GT-R at 5.12 lb/whp. I can get 600whp out of the EZ30R which would be 3.1-3.3 lb/whp... so that is indeed a bit more.

Of course traction will be the limiting factor... that and the transmission. The shifting is so fast on the GT-R... It will take some work on my part to catch that time back up.

I actually thought it was an accurate statement. You have to remember how much the GT-R weighs.
Then again, I referred to a 220hp 400lb sportbike and a 110hp 200lb supermoto as "snappy"... so maybe I just like the term too.

Yep. The Saturn V is fast. My car is snappy.

Honestly part of the conservativism is because in the GT-R world 750whp is serious weak sauce. There are so many GT-Rs above 1000whp... and the AMS Omega GT-R.... dear god... 0-60 in 1.53 seconds, 0-100 in 2.79 seconds. Now that deserves something stronger then snappy!

Jeff

[sponaugle]

I have started work on the EZ30R harness. I am using a Vipec V88 ECM to control the engine, and the ViPEC uses TE Superseal 1.0 connectors. I got a couple sets of connectors and a few hundred pins. If anyone else builds a harness like this, this crimper:

http://milspecwiring.com/store/index...product_id=417

works great with these superseal pins.. and is a lot cheaper then then the TE tool.

For wire I am using M22759/16 Tefzel wire, which is a great milspec motorsport wire.



I got the wire from ProwireUSA, which has a great selection of multiple striped colors. I decided to use the classic Deutsch DTM connectors for harness to harness, and Prowire also has those.

If anyone else is doing an EZ30R I'm happy to share my wiring spreadsheet.

[Boog]

What are the advantages of mil spec wire over 'generic automotive' wire? Insulation corrosion resistance, reduced signal crosstalk, heat dissipation, etc? Conductor consistency, resistance, material, winding, etc? I don't doubt that there are good reasons to go mil spec, I'm just curious what they are.

Also, how did you decide on a wire gauge? I'd love to have some good criteria of "If X and Y, you can use 20 gauge. If A and B, you should be using 16 gauge." Some items like a starter have a known draw so its easy to consult a amps/length->gauge chart, but lots of items like say an ABS pump trigger or a signal wire to the cluster etc, have me scratching my head. So far I was just planning on mimicking the wire gauge used in the original harness as best I can, but it would be great to learn the right way to go about it.

[metalmaker12]

Wow!!! This is sick stuff!!

[sponaugle]

What are the advantages of mil spec wire over 'generic automotive' wire? Insulation corrosion resistance, reduced signal crosstalk, heat dissipation, etc? Conductor consistency, resistance, material, winding, etc? I don't doubt that there are good reasons to go mil spec, I'm just curious what they are.

There are people who spend their careers spec’ing wire, but I’ll give my 3.141 cents about it.

Most generic wire you would buy at an autoparts store is “PVC”. It is typically bare copper with polyvinylchloride insulation, and is good for to about 175 degrees F. There are a few higher end PVC based wires (sometimes strangely marked as SAE J-1128), and some of these have a higher temperature range, but still low abrasion resistance.

This kind of wire can work fine, but it is certainly the low end of the barrel. Pretty much all cars use better wire then this.

The next level up is something like GXL, which is a thin wall cross-linked polyethylene insulation (XLPE). This insulation is good to 257 degrees F, and has better abrasion resistance than PVC. This is good stuff, and if you are going to stock your wire bar with some wire, this is a good place to start. (skip the cheap "primary wire"). It is pretty flexible and will fit into most standard automotive connectors.

You can get this from places like ProWire, Del City, and a bunch of others.. It is usually referred to as ‘cross-linked’ wire.

SXL is a thicker wall version of GXL, with the same temperature range. It is a bit less flexible, but still easy to use. The thicker wall is a bit better abrasion resistance. TXL is a thinner version of SXL, but I would stick with GXL and SXL for most applications. TXL is nice for harness that have limited space. If you buy a wire kit from someone like painless, this is what they use. ( TXL and GXL ).

Next up the line is the 22759/16 Tefzel wire I am using. Tefzel is a Dupont trade name for ETFE (Ethylene tetrafluoroethylene). This is an excellent wire for motorsports use, and is a tinned copper wire. It is lighter than SXL by a noticeable amount, and slightly more compact due to the thinner and harder insulation. If you were to handle the wire it has a slightly harder surface feel, sort of like the difference between a counter top and a vinyl floor. It has very good abrasion resistance, especially wire to wire (in harnesses). It has better gasoline and oil resistance, and is good to 300 degrees F.

The top of the line for motorsports is probably Spec 55. It is also called MIL 22759/32 and /35. It uses a cross linked ETFE polymer (called XLETFE), which is even better than the normal Tefzel stuff. You can get single wall and double wall Spec 55. The double wall is of course very abrasion resistant and good to almost 400 degrees F. This is used in a lot of aircraft applications (notably the Boeing 777).

There are other types, like Aromatic Polyimide (KAPTON) and TKT that are really good wire for aerospace applications.

As for prices:
100 ft of parts store grade 'primary wire' is about $6
100 ft of GXL is about $9
100 ft of ETFE-Tefzel is about $20
100 ft of Spec 55 is about $30

At a minimum, get the GXL stuff. Obviously prices go up at each level, and if you are trying to trim down every last ounce ( and you know who I am talking about!! ), the Tefzel/Spec 55 is the way to go.

I am sure there are other people on this forum that are more knowledgeable about wire types so feel free to add to the conversation.

[sponaugle]

Also, how did you decide on a wire gauge? I'd love to have some good criteria of "If X and Y, you can use 20 gauge. If A and B, you should be using 16 gauge." Some items like a starter have a known draw so its easy to consult a amps/length->gauge chart, but lots of items like say an ABS pump trigger or a signal wire to the cluster etc, have me scratching my head. So far I was just planning on mimicking the wire gauge used in the original harness as best I can, but it would be great to learn the right way to go about it.

Gauge is typically picked based on amperage. In the case of a car harness, length is usually less than 15 feet or so. I am using 20 gauge for circuits that go to the ECU and are low amperage (most of the circuits). For the fuel injectors and solenoids I am using 16 gauge, which is certainly plenty given the current demands.

Things that are signal wires (CAN bus, things that go to the dash, controls, etc) are very low current, and 20 gauge is plenty. I suspect that in 818 most circuit paths will be shorter so the demand for larger gauge is even less. Probably the highest current demand circuits post fuse box are the head and tail lights, power to things like the ABS pump, ECU power, and relay power for things like the DBW throttle. For those I have used 16 gauge. In looking at the factory harness there are a few power circuits (going to the relay box for example) that use 12 gauge wire, and I would do the same.

The risk in running a wire that is too small is two factor... one is heat, and the other is resistance. If you have a high resistance wire ( small wire ) with a lot of current it will have higher voltage drop and produce more heat. At the extreme end of the spectrum you could start a fire.. however that is actually not that likely to occur. Most circuits are fuse protected enough to prevent that.

If all else fails I would always tend to default to a thicker wire, but don't go too far with that as it adds unneeded weight and bulk.

I have seen far more circuit failures because of terrible solder joints and bad crimp jobs then everything else combined.

A really well done crimp is much better than a solder joint. I personally like these crimps:

http://www.delcity.net/store/Heat-Sh...ctors/p_805406

.. as they are a combined crimp and heat shrink. Some people prefer to use non insulated crimps covered with heat shrink, which works well as long as you use a good thick and strong heat shrink.

Jeff

[Jaime]

A really well done crimp is much stronger then a solder joint.

Absolutely. But, nothing is worse than a bad crimp where the wire works its way out of the crimp and causes intermittent connection problems. I would say if you can afford good crimps and tools, then that's what you should do. The best economy option is to solder and cover with adhesive lined heat shrink. The heat shrink will give the joint some rigidity and help combat the tendency of soldered connections to break due to repeated flexing where the solder ends.

I went through 20 feet of heat shrink on my build.

For anyone else trying to reproduce what you are doing - that pile of wire is worth about $400 assuming those are all 100 foot spools.

Waytek sells GXL for a little more than 5 cents per foot, but they have a minimum of 250 feet per color and no striped colors. Most of us mortals would use fewer color anyways because of the additional expense that comes from ordering smaller spools or wasting more wire. That way you can do ten colors for around $140.

Most of my wiring is 18ga for low current circuits and 16ga for big loads like headlights and motors (heater blower, AWIC pump).

Deutsch DTM connectors are pretty much the best you can get, but they only go up to 12 pins. Molex MX150 connectors go up to 20 pins and can use standards crimp tools.

[sponaugle]

Absolutely. But, nothing is worse than a bad crimp where the wire works its way out of the crimp and causes intermittent connection problems. I would say if you can afford good crimps and tools, then that's what you should do. The best economy option is to solder and cover with adhesive lined heat shrink. The heat shrink will give the joint some rigidity and help combat the tendency of soldered connections to break due to repeated flexing where the solder ends.

Yep.. you are spot on. Bad crimps are perhaps the worst.. especially with exposed wire. Just a small amount of vibration and the wire will break. The only downside of the solder and heat wrap is the solder joint itself is pretty firm (not flexible), which creates a common failure where the solder ends. The key is to use enough heat shrink and to position the solder joint so it is not in a flexing location. Of course with a crimp you can have the same problem which is why I like the heat shrink crimps that are a bit flexible on the ends.

I went through 20 feet of heat shrink on my build.

Yea. it is amazing how much of this stuff you can use!

For anyone else trying to reproduce what you are doing - that pile of wire is worth about $400 assuming those are all 100 foot spools.
Waytek sells GXL for a little more than 5 cents per foot, but they have a minimum of 250 feet per color and no striped colors. Most of us mortals would use fewer color anyways because of the additional expense that comes from ordering smaller spools or wasting more wire. That way you can do ten colors for around $140.

Yes, that order was almost $600 as prices are a bit higher for some of the less common color patterns (and I got some 16 gauge as well).
That is a good price for the GXL wire.

Most of my wiring is 18ga for low current circuits and 16ga for big loads like headlights and motors (heater blower, AWIC pump).
Deutsch DTM connectors are pretty much the best you can get, but they only go up to 12 pins. Molex MX150 connectors go up to 20 pins and can use standards crimp tools.

I love the DTM connectors... the barrel crimp works very well, and the connectors are very heat resistant. It is true that the connector count in limited, and they are not super compact. That MX150 is a nice connector!

I also like the HDP20 Deutsch connectors:



They have 6 to 47 pin connectors in a very good metal shielded mil-spec housing. I ordered a couple of the HDP20s to try out.

Jeff

[Scargo]

I used to do Mil-Spec wiring many moons ago. Jeff has a good explanation and I could not agree more. Cheap stuff has a low abrasion resistance but the insulation also splits with the smallest scratch. I would never use PVC in an engine compartment, let alone anywhere else in my car.
My independent research came up with many of the same resources for wire and I planned on using the same style of splices. I was actually surprised that soldered together wires can be problematic if they can move at all.
I like the idea of signal carrying wires being 20 gauge.
Not discussed was the fuel pump power wire, which might be best addressed locally with a relay so there aren't multiple higher amperage wires running front to back.
Jeff, I cannot find the connectors like you have in the picture based on your info. 34 pin?
And, oh crap... another crimping tool I need to buy!

[Jaime]

Jeff, I cannot find the connectors like you have in the picture based on your info. 34 pin?

18 pin.. here.

[Jaime]

Also, WireCare will rent out the crimper for $25.

[sponaugle]

18 pin.. here.

Yea.. all of them here:

http://www.wirecare.com/deutsch-conn...20&contacts=47

They have a good range of sizes..Plus for things like power busses they have some cool mixed size in the HDP10..

[Boog]

Great info. I appreciate everyone taking the time to respond.

[sponaugle]

I used to do Mil-Spec wiring many moons ago. Jeff has a good explanation and I could not agree more. Cheap stuff has a low abrasion resistance but the insulation also splits with the smallest scratch. I would never use PVC in an engine compartment, let alone anywhere else in my car.
My independent research came up with many of the same resources for wire and I planned on using the same style of splices. I was actually surprised that soldered together wires can be problematic if they can move at all.
I like the idea of signal carrying wires being 20 gauge.
Not discussed was the fuel pump power wire, which might be best addressed locally with a relay so there aren't multiple higher amperage wires running front to back.
Jeff, I cannot find the connectors like you have in the picture based on your info. 34 pin?
And, oh crap... another crimping tool I need to buy!

Yea, the crimping tools can be expensive! For my fuel pump I am using a relay that is very close to the pump so the control wire from the ECM is a small 18 gauge wire. The fuel pump is one of the fuel places that the gauge really matters a lot.

Here is a snippet from a post on GTR-Life where I am talking about direct wiring the fuel pumps

The stock wires to the fuel pump controller appear to be 16 gauge, which has a typical resistance of 4 ohms/1000ft. If I were to guess I would say there is about 10 feet of wire between the pump and the battery ( thru the IPDM ). That would be a resistance of .04 ohms. Let's assume that connectors and the fuse box adds .02 ohms for a total resistance of to .06 ohms. Worst case a Walbro 460 will draw about 16 amps at 65psi of fuel pressure. That would be a voltage drop of 0.96 volts. That is a reasonable significant amount of drop.

I added a 4 gauge line from the battery to the fuel pump area, and will use that to power both pumps. A 4 gauge wire is about .4 ohms/1000 feet. I am running the wire directly down the side of the car, and the distance is about 6 feet. In the case of the first pump, let's just consider the voltage to the FPCM. Since this one line will drive both pumps, let's assume 32 amps total current. That would net a resistance of .0024 ohms, and a voltage drop of .07 volts. That is a significant difference.

If you are pushing the fuel pumps and getting 15-16 amps of current, you should make sure the lines to the fuel pump are of sufficient gauge. Since there is already a nice beefy battery cable coming to the back of the 818, I would connect that, thru a fuse, to a relay for the fuel pump.

This doesn't really apply if you are using the factory FPCM, as that has a much larger voltage drop built in.

The nice thing about the heat shrink crimps is that the heat shrink ends are somewhat soft and couple directly to the insulation. That gives a transition from the hard center of the crimp, which reduces problems with vibrations. The key to vibration failures are avoiding 'sharp' transitions. If you have a very hard non flexible crimp (the cheap autoparts store PVC ones) connecting to a soft wire with a flexible copper center, as the wire moves it will form a break at that transition. It can be mitigated a bit with heat shrink, especially the sealing heat shrink. Of course the best design it to not have flex occur near those connections.

If you have all of your wires inside loom and taped you are even better off as that limits movement a lot.

Speaking of loom.. for wires in the engine bay this stuff is awesome: http://www.wirecare.com/products.asp?prodline=fg

It is called insultherm.. not split loom so you need to plan in advance, but if you have some wires (EGT probes, etc) going right next to a header, this stuff works well.

Jeff

[Jaime]

If you are pushing the fuel pumps and getting 15-16 amps of current, you should make sure the lines to the fuel pump are of sufficient gauge. Since there is already a nice beefy battery cable coming to the back of the 818, I would connect that, thru a fuse, to a relay for the fuel pump.

Or move the fuse box and fuel pump relay under the hump, two feet from the fuel pump. I also ran 10 gauge wire from the fuel pump relay to the pump.

The nice thing about the heat shrink crimps is that the heat shrink ends are somewhat soft and couple directly to the insulation. That gives a transition from the hard center of the crimp, which reduces problems with vibrations. The key to vibration failures are avoiding 'sharp' transitions. If you have a very hard non flexible crimp (the cheap autoparts store PVC ones) connecting to a soft wire with a flexible copper center, as the wire moves it will form a break at that transition. It can be mitigated a bit with heat shrink, especially the sealing heat shrink. Of course the best design it to not have flex occur near those connections.

I don't like crimping through insulation, you don't get that nice fold-over where the ends of the metal go right into the strands of the wire. Just buy the ones from the auto parts zone, pry off the PCV and heat shrink over the connection.

[sponaugle]

Or move the fuse box and fuel pump relay under the hump, two feet from the fuel pump. I also ran 10 gauge wire from the fuel pump relay to the pump.
I don't like crimping through insulation, you don't get that nice fold-over where the ends of the metal go right into the strands of the wire. Just buy the ones from the auto parts zone, pry off the PCV and heat shrink over the connection.

That is a nice setup! Very neat and tidy. Hmmm...

Jeff

[sponaugle]

Update: I finally got around to picking up my heads.





These are Cosworth 06 STI heads with Cosworth valves and cams.



The block has been sitting ready for the heads for a month now..



And we have mating. Now I can get the engine finished up..Bucket sizing is next.

Jeff

[Jaime]

That is a nice setup! Very neat and tidy. Hmmm...

Jeff

Thanks. I'm quite proud of what I did for the fuse box. Here's a better picture of the unit with the covers off:



The switch on the right is to go into test mode. The three 50A relays on top are for the starter, fuel pump, and the main relay. I re-wired the starter interlock circuit so that I only run relay coil current through the ignition switch. That saved me about 30 feet of 10 gauge wire - along with the bulk and weight that come along with large gauge wire.

[P.3]

Jeff, please check PM

[Plebeian]

Any updates?

[sponaugle]

Update:

Progress has been pretty slow due to other projects. I have been working on the GT-R, as well as rewiring my 02 Bugeye. The Bugeye is now running a Vipec with the EZ30R, which works great. It is so so so much better then the hydra. If anyone has a use for a hydra, drop me a note.. I have two.



Engine building continues... here are the two engines I am using as well as the transmission.



I pulled a few turbo parts out of the parts cabinet to see what might work for break in. I think the GT35R with the .82 housing is what I will use.



I got all of the bucket lashes measured, ordered new buckets, installed and confirmed all is good. .008" on the intake, and .010" on the exhaust.



I installed and torqued the pulleys and gears for the timing belt next..



Then started the belt install.

[sponaugle]

Everything lined up nice as it should.



Final look and everything is good.

Next up was the water pipe. In the stock setup the water pipe has an extension coming out of the back of the engine that feeds the heater. The return from the heater goes into another black pipe that feeds across the engine and down to the larger of the two fittings on the water pump. Since I will not have heat in the car, I decided to make a shorter circuit out of this.



The pipe installed on the engine as stock.



I removed the pipe from the engine and pulled the extension out.



The dimensions of the hole are almost perfect for a 3/8 NPT Tap, which I used to add some threads.



Nice clean threads..



Fitting Installed.



I attached two hoses directly to the water pump (one -8 and one -10)

[sponaugle]

The hoses run up the front inner side of the engine. The larger hose goes to the new fitting on the water pipe, and the smaller hose goes to the overflow container.

I also did a test fit of the turbo up pipe..... I have no idea how this will fit in the actual chassis... I'll drop the engine in place next to find out.

[sponaugle]

I also installed a 50psi map sensor:



And cleaned up the fittings around the throttle body:



Up next is to test fit the engine in the chassis.

[sponaugle]

Oh I also installed some Perrin Engine and Transmission mounts:





I also got a Fuel Pressure regulator from Jeff. The really nice thing about this regulator is that the housing has four inputs not two. That means you don’t have to use -AN Y fittings to combine the in and out of each fuel rail. That saves both time, money, and a lot of hassle.

[Samiam1017]

is that upipe,turbo setup gonna clear the crossbar or are you gonna modify the crossbar?

[Frank818]

Too bad about the turbos on the table, I thought you were thinking of using them all on the 818. Like I said, too bad. lolll

Awesome pictures.