From Roadster to 818R

[Zach34]

I built a MkII Roadster in 2003 (I'm Cobra3657 on the other forum) and all of a sudden 11 years have gone by. I love the car, but I'm itching for a new project - something track-focused. Obviously the 818R could fit the bill and I've been lurking here for a while. I'm wondering if anybody else has already made this move and what your feedback is on the 818 from the perspective of a long-time roadster owner (I've autocrossed it 4 times and open-tracked it twice). Here are some things I want the 818 to do better than the roadster:

-Seating position. This is huge. I am 6'3", all my height is in my legs, and I never liked having my feet pushed to the left in the Roadster. It sounds like the inside dimensions of the 818 are about the same as the Roadster, but is there room for expansion? I have no problem moving frame tubes, re-welding some stuff and putting some money into a good seat. The semi-awkward seating position of the Roadster (for a tall guy) made it more difficult to drive on the track, I thought. Comfort will be the #1 goal if I build an 818R and I do not want to compromise it.

-Speed. The Roadster is a blast on the track, until you get above let's say 110 mph. Has anybody pushed an 818R to high speed and can give a detailed review of the handling? Does the wing and splitter work?

-Suspension. I fabricated NASCAR-style adjustable front and rear sway bars for the Roadster and it made a tremendous difference in autox. Another thing that made a huge driveability improvement was the SAI mod. Has anybody measured the SAI angle on the 818? It looks like it could be too steep. The original Roadster's angle was rather ludicrous in retrospect before the SAI mod. The SAI mod became almost a default on the Roadsters and I think sway bars became a necessity on the track. There was also an issue with bushing free-play in the rear spindles of IRS Roadsters that caused problems on cars running slicks. It looks like people are figuring out the bump steer on the 818R already. I guess what I'm getting at is: How far away are we from a suspension that works on the track with the 818R? By "works" I mean: no bump steer and predictable oversteer/understeer at all speeds.

Any other thoughts from former Roadster owners? I'll have to sell the Roadster to build the 818. That's going to be tough...

Thanks!

[skullandbones]

I've got a MKIII so I know what you are talking about with the positioning in the roadster. However, I was at HB this year and the red 818S has much more space than mine right out of the box. You sit straight. I think you would be much more comfortable in a S or R.

There aren't the same constraints about allowing for the vintage 15inch wheels (I heard that was the reason for the crazy adaptor). So the 818 should be better for SAI. Until my changes in the front suspension, I measured the roadster at about 20 and I was able to modify it to be 10 and with the camber at -1 and castor at 6. What do you mean by the SAI being too steep in the 818 (too low as in below 9)? I thought it looked right on the chassis at HB. There is no reason for it to be a screwed up like the "adaptor" roadster suspension. BTW: measuring the SAI is not easy since finding the pivot position of the ball joint is critical and easy to miscalculate.

I think you will be very happy with the 818.

WEK.

[edwardb]

I can't comment about the 818 -- I've yet to see one in person -- but one clarification. There have been many changes and improvements to the Roadster since your Mk2 and the already referenced Mk3. The front suspension setup of the Mk4 with the FFR 2-piece spindles addresses the SAI and bump steer concern of previous setups using Mustang spindles and the upper ball joint adapters. That along with the wider steering rack used started with Mk3's (either directly for manual or with extenders for power) makes the front suspension for later built Roadsters much more sorted out. This is from my Mk4 build. No adapters in sight.



Interesting thread question though. I will be interested to see if there are any out there with real world experience who can compare the two. Nothing will replace the history and interest from the replica side of the Roadster, along with the good old American V-8 power. But for driving and comfort, the comparison would be interesting.

[FFRSpec72]

-Seating position. This is huge. I am 6'3", all my height is in my legs, and I never liked having my feet pushed to the left in the Roadster. It sounds like the inside dimensions of the 818 are about the same as the Roadster, but is there room for expansion? I have no problem moving frame tubes, re-welding some stuff and putting some money into a good seat. The semi-awkward seating position of the Roadster (for a tall guy) made it more difficult to drive on the track, I thought. Comfort will be the #1 goal if I build an 818R and I do not want to compromise it.

-Speed. The Roadster is a blast on the track, until you get above let's say 110 mph. Has anybody pushed an 818R to high speed and can give a detailed review of the handling? Does the wing and splitter work?

-Suspension. I fabricated NASCAR-style adjustable front and rear sway bars for the Roadster and it made a tremendous difference in autox. Another thing that made a huge driveability improvement was the SAI mod. Has anybody measured the SAI angle on the 818? It looks like it could be too steep. The original Roadster's angle was rather ludicrous in retrospect before the SAI mod. The SAI mod became almost a default on the Roadsters and I think sway bars became a necessity on the track. There was also an issue with bushing free-play in the rear spindles of IRS Roadsters that caused problems on cars running slicks. It looks like people are figuring out the bump steer on the 818R already. I guess what I'm getting at is: How far away are we from a suspension that works on the track with the 818R? By "works" I mean: no bump steer and predictable oversteer/understeer at all speeds.

Any other thoughts from former Roadster owners? I'll have to sell the Roadster to build the 818. That's going to be tough...

Thanks!

So I have a R in the build process, the seating will be the exact same as in my MkII challenge car, the cage area is almost the exact same if you make some modifications, I did push the rear firewall back so that I get an extra 4.5" I can push the seat back, I did go with a 10 degree layback seat (not a 20 degree) to also save me about 4". So with those 2 mods I now have same exact room in both cars. I'm 6' with a 32" inseam and I can fully stretch my legs out in both the challenge car and 818R. The seating feels better in 818 as you feet are not cramped and pushed to the side like the challenge car.

The upgrades to the challenge car with FFR MkIV spindles helped the handling quite a bit and cut down on the bump steer, I think that the 818 will be better based upon putting together the front end and seeing where things are lining up and looking at the SAI angle.

I doubt that I will sell the challenge car as it's a hoot to drive on the track, just one of a kind car to lean how to handle it.

[Zach34]

Thanks for the feedback!

I'm a bit over a 34" inseam, so that's what I worry about the most with the seating position. I also would like to lean back more than I have my roadster set up (about 10 degrees). I got to look at a local 818 being built a while back and I'm wondering if I could move the pedals up and forward a bit (the main obstruction is the front lower control arm). Even 2 or 3 inches could make a big difference.

It will be extremely nice to not have my feet pushed to the side. I went to some trouble to get my seats facing exactly forward and centered on the steering wheel in the roadster, but there's nothing to be done about the inside of the footbox.

I may be close to having a buyer for my roadster... I wish there was some way I could keep it.

[STiPWRD]

Zach, the best advice I could give you is to find a local 818 with Boyd tank and try sitting in it. I'm 6'2" with 33" inseam and I'd describe the seating as quite comfortable with the added leg room from the thinner gas tank. The tank that comes with the 818 is just too large for taller people IMO. I've sat in the red 818S at FFR as well as the one I'm building and both feel very good. Keep in mind I've done a few things to maximize the leg room such as use thin fiberglass fixed back momo seats (stock wrx seats are thicker and reduce overall leg room), a smaller 320mm momo steering wheel and a steering wheel bracket made by Rori that relocates the steering wheel 2" forward.

[AZPete]

Zach, you should sit in an 818 and you might get an invitation if you update your profile to show your location (My Profile/About Me).

I'm 6'3" with 32" inseam, built a Mk3 roadster and now building #25 818 with a Boyd tank and shortened steering column for space. My Mk 3 had Kirkey seats which added a lot of space and it was comfortable, once I got in. If you are planning a no-door 818R then it won't matter but the 818S door hinges are much more forward than the door hinges on the Mk 3, which makes the 818S much easier to get into and out of than the roadster. Like the roadster, you can build your 818 to fit.

[FFRSpec72]

Just remember that if you go with the Boyd tank you will most likely not be able to race with NASA as they have a rule about modification of original tank (if replacing original tank, then it must be a fuel cell). My fuel cell is even thinner than the Boyd tank and the overall cell holds more that the Boyd tank

[metalmaker12]

I took my 818 s up to around 130 and it was pretty solid at that speed. I had the suspension dialed in pretty good and it drives very smooth compared to a few roadsters I have driven. It turns like a to cart on roids and has great exit speed with incredible grip I think any FFR model would die for. I am a big fan of its handling and think once they get it dialed in and running great it will prove to be a track beast. It even feels faster than my friends 347 roadster that has like 385Hp when I only was running around 300whp. IMO Aside from other FF with like 400 plus the 818 with 300-350 will hold its own on a drag strip, but slice up any other FF on a road race track.

[Zach34]

For some reason I can't update my location/profile details. I was assuming I have to get my post count up to some threshold before those permissions get turned on. I'm in Norfolk, VA. I did get to sit in an 818S being built by a forum member grayghost a couple months ago. We were only able to set the seats in place. They weren't installed yet, and they were stock Subaru seats. Still, it was extremely helpful to get a look at everything.

I will definitely build to either NASA or SCCA rules, so a custom fuel cell of some kind is almost inevitable.

That's good to hear about the handling. After looking at some pictures, I'm wondering what the advantage of having the front upper a-arms mounted so high might be - unless it's just to clear the shock. The SAI modification on the roadsters moved the upper a-arm down considerably.

[EricScottZehnder]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsvNUDhuhNM

Check out how planted the car is throughout all the turns. Easily correctable, agile, usually around 1.7G in the turns with good rubber, and he goes through the uphill S at something like 120MPH no problem. There's a new front splitter, rear wing and canards for overall grip improvement. They just released a door cutout to help with aero as well. Overall, considering it's only about 1 year in, the car is incredibly sorted performance wise. It seems like the main things everyone is trying to tackle is cooling (including the FFR boys on track).

[gwarden]

I built an early mark II roadster green and white in Norfolk 10 years ago sold it last winter and am building an 818s out in Surry now. I'm 6'2 and have the Boyd tank and not using the wrx seats I drove a go cart stage car in Charles city a cpl weeks ago and it felt ok seat wise.
If you get a chance your welcome to vist, but I'm just getting started

[Zach34]

Well, the Roadster sold a few weeks ago to a fantastic gentleman in Tennessee. It was very tough to see it go, but the time had come and I feel very good about the new owner.

I pulled the trigger on the R today. I was astonished to have a production date of 11/8/2014, just a month away!!! If anybody else is thinking about ordering, be prepared for a quick turn-around. I have to get my crap in order! I still don't know what route I want to take for donor parts.

So I've officially joined the fray, now I just wonder if I can get it on a track, or at least some autox, by April next year.