Is it possible to build without "mods"?

[Scud67]

Ok - obviously I am new to this and have not even come close to ordering a kit yet, but is it actually possible to build an FFR roadster without doing ANY of the modifications? It seems to me that if you buy a "kit" it should go together without having to modify things at all.... I know that the mods make it better or easier to work on later (such as not having to drop the tank to reach certain bolts). Also, does FFR take into account these mods and change the kits to reflect any of them to make the kit "better"?

[Jeff Kleiner]

It's possible, but it takes the same level of self control as required to work in a bubblepack factory.

Jeff

[aspbite]

Also, does FFR take into account these mods and change the kits to reflect any of them to make the kit "better"?

Yes

[MPTech]

It's possible and makes the build faster and cheaper.
But I bet you can't do it, especially if you read these forums.
Too many good ideas and cool aftermarket parts.

Yes, FFR takes some of these mods into consideration and incorporates some of them into the model releases. ie: MK4. And add mods mid-release, as they go. ie: Driver Side Footbox access panel.

[skullandbones]

No! Live is too short to follow the rules. You have to break out and do your own thing. But seriously: it's close to impossible and practically improbable that you will. There are just too many cool things to do on these projects. Also, there are some things that aren't really right or wrong. So FFR will recommend doing it a certain way when there are probably 50 different ways to do it like running brake lines and which way to route electrical, where to mount the battery box, which combination of wheels and tires. The list goes on and on like that. Gook luck keeping it stock! WEK.

[jakester888]

I intended to go completely by the book with a donor Mustang. I attended a build class, visited FFR at one of their open houses and I started out in that direction, harvested all the parts but started to realize as guys on this thread have pointed out that there are better ways to get the job done. I started out with locating the battery under the surface plane of the trunk, which then lead to building the "secret compartment" mod in the trunk as well. That lead to more cool work with the mid-trunk separator and cubby hole behind the seats. Then the "bling" to the engine (upper & lower intake) lead to new alternator, new solenoid. Then the wiring became difficult so I abandoned the donor harness. I bet you CANNOT go by the book - it's too tempting to choose better design options.

[Davidbr_48]

Of course it's possible to build without any mods, but there are a few mods that are very popular for obvious reasons -- power steering being number one I think because of the sheer effort required without it. Other "functional" mods you might consider include include relocating the battery to the front or under the trunk, and adding a bracket to the bottom of the radiator so it doesn't bounce around. In addition it's hard to resist dressing up your car -- better mirrors, fancy door hinges made from billet aluminum, stainless roll bars, etc. I had a great time building my Roadster and hope you do too.

Davidbr / Tucson

[carlewms]

Scud,

Yes...but...

I am in the middle of a Mk 4 build staring with a base kit with a bunch of options (purchased during one of FFR's sales). I went that route because my budget would not allow both a full kit and the options (like IRS) that I really wanted.

That strategy at least from a budget point of view allowed me to make more mods that otherwise I could not have afforded.

Build time (and cost to an extent) is indirectly proportional to the number of mods... More mods more build time and cost.

Some mods depend on how you intend to use the car...if you want a ride that you will drive a lot around town or autocross, power steering would be a mod to consider.

The other consideration is that some mods are very difficult to do on a completed car. The PS footbox expansion comes to mind.

You will get many responses...here are the mods I would do at a minimum:
1. PS footbox expansion;
2. RT accelerator;
3. RT turn signal on the steering;
4. DS footbox inside expansion; and,
5. Rear Quickjack/body mounting mods.

Just my two cents.

Carl

[Scud67]

Thanks for all of the replies.... it's just a lot to take in as far as the mods go. In reading all of these "build threads" there is so much that can be done and in so many ways. Not sure which way I will go when I eventually get mine going. I was actually thinking that I would go another route (like the rolling chassis cars), but then I thought building it myself would be so much more rewarding than just paying for one. So much to think about.

[edwardb]

OK, here's my take. This is an interesting question actually. Because this forum (and the other one) have so much traffic related to mods (including many that I've incorporated into my builds) it's easy to get the impression IMO that mods are somehow "necessary" and the kit as delivered by FFR is inferior in some way. Often "better" is used to describe mods that may or may not really be better. It's all relative to your skill level, interest in doing the work (and rework) for mods, budget, time, and as pointed out the intended use for the car. For instance, I see guys putting big expensive racing brakes, fancy adjustable shocks, etc. on cars that will only ever be tooled around on the street. Better? I guess so. But not really any better for the intended use. If you want a nice replica to cruise with, go to car shows, etc. then the base or complete kit builds will deliver that. Everything works. If you're going to take it to the track, auto-X, etc. there are definitely things that improve it for those purposes alone. Some mods may even be required for safety or to pass tech inspections. Others like me don't track the car, but just enjoy the challenge, planning, execution, etc. of the build and mods become part of the fun whether they're really required or cost effective.

When I saw the first Mk4 at the Detroit Autorama a few years ago, the first thing that struck me was "Oh, this is what a factory base build looks like." I had seen so many cars with so many mods that it was a bit surprising seeing one straight from FFR built just the way the manual describes. But in the end, it was clear this was a totally functional and perfectly good build. One that anyone could be proud of. I thought the same thing a couple years later when I saw the Mk4 build by/for Summit Racing. It's a bit higher end build, but still pretty much by the book and a very nice car. So the basic answer to your question IMO is "yes" a non-modified car can be built and will be fine, again depending on what you plan to do with it. Probably the safest bet for someone is to buy the complete kit and build it by the book. Nearly every part is included and they all work together.

Another class of mods could go into the category of "creature comfort." Here again, all aren't necessary but make the car maybe easier to live with, especially since most of us are used to cars now that are a little more comfortable than your average 60's raw and basic sport/muscle cars were back in the day. This would include things like heat and noise insulation, cockpit ventilation (or even A/C), heated seats, cancelling turn signal and stalk, larger footboxes, expanded trunk, gas struts or prop rod for the trunk, push button start, sound system, and the list could go on and on. Power steering and power brakes kind of fall into this category, although some may say they're required based on intended use of the car, which I agree with as well.

As someone already mentioned, yes some mods added on early versions were added to the Mk4. Some were listed. Others like hidden body mounts, hidden trunk hinges, drop-butt mod, revised more authentic trunk lid, are incorporated. Some outright improvements include the newer FFR 2-piece spindles. Not saying that further improvements won't be made but seems that FFR's attention is mainly elsewhere with new models vs. further refinement of this one which has had multiple improvement cycles over the years and is a pretty mature design.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I personally enjoy the daylights out of it.

[Scud67]

Thank you edwardb - That is pretty much what I was asking. I am planning on just "street use" when I build one. I won't do a top, ac, heat, stereo, etc., but I like the push button start and other things like that. My main problem is that I wanted to do a "crate motor" but here in Massachusetts I hear that is a real PITA. I don't really like the look of the donor 302 EFI motor in these cars though..... so not sure what will happen there.

I do know someone close by with an original AC and was thinking of taking lots of pictures of the dash and interior along with the engine bay to try to make my build look close to the original. Again, not sure how that will turn out.

Building the kit from FFR shouldn't be that bad for me - I was an auto tech for 17 years and have a nice lift in my home shop along with all of my tools from back then.

[Scud67]

Hey edwardb - I see you are in Michigan... are you going to be at the Dream Cruise? I will be there on the 15th (was hoping to do the Superformance Dream Drive again this year, but they cancelled it).

[blueoval_bowtie_guy]

A friend of mine - Roger Hedden - who was known in the Cobra forums as 'TurkeyMaster' built a full donor car. He even cut the gauges out of the original Mustang GT dashboard. It was a very nicely sorted out reliable 'Cobra'. Sadly he passed away and his widow sold the car. The last I heard, from MrMustang was the car had been sold by the second owner to someone in Germany.

Yes, it is possible to build a full donor car but it takes a lot of willpower which it seems that very few of us have.

[Carlos C]

Scud:

No, it's not possible.

You can lie to yourself all you want that your car will be exactly as per the FFR manual, but it won't happen. It's not in our (car enthusiasts and/or tinkerers) nature to leave well-enough alone. We always want to put our signature in the form of a mod to everything we touch (or maybe it's just me?). Even if you de-associate yourself from the forum(s), you'll find something you want to "improve" on during your build, while strictly following the manual alone. It could be something minor, such as the start button you mentioned, or major mods to the engine, brakes, suspension, or chassis.

Good luck building a completely stock FFR car. Make sure to share your build with the rest of us, and include plenty of photos... We LOVE pictures.

Carlos

[MPTech]

Is it possible to build without "mods"?

Technically, yes.
Spiritually, NO

as Carlos said, as gearheads, it's just not in our DNA.

If you absolutely want a stock / non-modded build (which I can't for the life of me understand why), don't return to this forum or FFcars.
I guarantee it will cause you to spend MORE time and MORE money.

Now, since you are already asking our advice and listening to us
MY RECOMMENDATION, is to start planning your build and prioritize what mods are important to you and justify your budget.
As also said, identifying what mods can be easily done after your initial build is complete, is also important.
Do you consider a heater as a modification? It will be hard to install later, but maybe seat-heaters would be more economical and easy to upgrade.
As mentioned, expanding the PS Footbox is highly recommended and HARD to upgrade later. But not very expensive and does add time to your build. (I personally recommend it and if you've ever ridden shotgun, you'll agree! Well worth the effort)
Also, the Russ Thompson gas pedal is a great upgrade too!

still listening???? We are passionate about our cars and building them ourselves makes them very personal. I can't tell you the sense of pride you feel when a fellow builder notices one of your customizations, points it out, and says "Nice Job!", then asks you about it in detail. It's what building these cars is all about. I really feel there is a "brotherhood of builder". I can talk for hours to someone that has built one (even if I never met him before), but someone that "bought" a built car, we just don't have much in common, except the appreciation of an awesome car!

Build the car YOU want, Dave Smith provides excellent bones, but there is always room for improvement!

[edwardb]

Hey edwardb - I see you are in Michigan... are you going to be at the Dream Cruise? I will be there on the 15th (was hoping to do the Superformance Dream Drive again this year, but they cancelled it).

Yes, I'll be there with the Mk3. Great Lakes Cobra Club hangs out on the corner of Hazel and Woodward Ave in Birmingham all day Saturday, Aug 16. Looks like 60 or so of us will be parked there.

[Scud67]

Edwardb - too bad you wouldn't be there earlier, we head back to MA. early Saturday morning. We are catching the dream Cruise on Friday - I know it hasn't really begun then, but there are still plenty of cars to see. I think Jason is in your club (I got to ride in his Superformance 2 years in a row at the Dream Drive - WHAT A CAR!)

MPTech - thanks for the info. It was just a bit confusing in checking out these forums with everyone posting the modifications. So, I had to ask the question. I would consider a modification anything that the FFR kit does not account for or include (other than donor parts if the "full kit" is not purchased). I don't really want to go the "donor" route, I would rather do the "complete kit" - having everything new is a nice feeling. And again, I don't really like the look of the 302 EFI engine in these cars. I already have an 87 GT that I have done tons of work to. I was thinking of selling it to get some of the funds for the kit, but when I met Mike Forte at the open house this year he told me that I should hang on to it.

[edwardb]

Edwardb - too bad you wouldn't be there earlier, we head back to MA. early Saturday morning. We are catching the dream Cruise on Friday - I know it hasn't really begun then, but there are still plenty of cars to see. I think Jason is in your club (I got to ride in his Superformance 2 years in a row at the Dream Drive - WHAT A CAR!)

Yea, even though officially on Saturday August 16th, it's a week long event. Pretty crazy for anyone who hasn't seen anything like it. I will probably be around for some of the weekday events, including maybe something on Friday. But a pretty busy week at work as well that week, so can't predict what I'll be able to do.

Just saw your post about your experience, tools, lift, etc. You shouldn't have any trouble. Lots of of engine options out there. Certainly don't have to go the donor 5.0 EFI look if you don't want to. But you have to play nice with whatever local regs you have. Here in Michigan, these kinds of cars only have to pass a safety inspection. Nothing related to engine, emissions, etc. If it runs and the lights light and horn honks, you're basically good to go.

[Gumball]

Scud,

As others pointed out, it is possible for some people to build a by-the-book donor build (or similar with new parts). I know a guy in my area who built one quite a few years back - he started with a decent donor, cleaned and rebuilt everything himself, did his own bodywork and paint, and in the end had a very nice car for around $18k all-in.

On the other hand, I wanted something a little more period correct and that would withstand close scrutiny - check out some of my build threads (I don't have a single one, just multiple postings) for a taste of all the mods that I've done to my car. If you really want to check lots of them out in one place, look at the "Modifications for Originality" forum over at ffcars.com.

Best of luck with your decision - in the end, it's all about what you intend to do with the car and how much work you enjoy.

[Scud67]

Nice that you only need safety there - here it has to pass emissions that match the year of the engine. So cat converters may be needed, along with all of the other smog stuff.
Here is my lift/ shop.

20140114_161325.jpg

[Scud67]

And another:
20140301_142151.jpg

[fordboy]

I'm a relatively new guy but I'd like to throw in my 2cents. I originally was gonna do a by the book build..I got my complete kit January 7 2014 and wanted to be done and painted in time for a big labor day weekend show in NJ called Lead East. I've gone in my '39 Ford Sedan stock and later in my 53 Ford pick up.. And I've been to the show with no car as a spectator. I considered buying a car already done for less than I was gonna spend on my kit. But I wanted to say I built it !! The more into the build the more the mods looked better and made more sense. Some would've been easier if considered earlier. Like the Everson rear trunk gas Strut supports..I'm gonna wait till the body comes off for paint before I get to that. Others have been easier. I've decided to drive the car for a while before paint...a shake down cruise if you will. And the guys who have responded already are a great group of talented guys who take the time to respond to newer guys like us...I'm just sorry I'll never meet them in person...so do yourself a favor..take the time to consider the wealth of info available on these forums and don't close your mind to nifty things that will make a great kit your own personal creation that you'll be proud of for a long time.

[Scud67]

Thanks fordboy. I am going to have to go through a whole bunch of the build threads and see what I want to do. I am "one of those guys" that do endless research on something before venturing into it. I am going to make a list of what is important for my build as a "base" and then include the modifications that make sense. I am also going to find out what the rules and regulations are for Massachusetts (as that will affect some of the build items, I am sure). I have a feeling it will be a long build once started.

[tirod]

Can the kit be built as F5 intended, yes.

Can you repress your natural hormonal urge to have something just a bit better than the next guy? Before you answer, the direct evidence by posting here is to own a car capable of besting 98% of the daily drivers around you on the commute to work. Are you currently driving a 4 cylinder naturally aspirated four door sedan and completely comfortable in traffic surrounded by ninja bikers and 3/4 ton diesel commuter trucks?

No you aren't. You want something better. Faster. More awesome looking. It's external male enhancement in a very visible and socially acceptable way. It's what guys do.

So, some mods are going to be a natural for you to perform. What they are and the focus of them is selective, costs are part of the assessment, as is complexity.

Access panels, sure. Don't shoot yourself in the foot, they are relatively easy, and beats doing it later.
Brakes - plan on using as big a set of calipers and rotors on the rear as the front. Don't shortchange your safety and performance by accepting the value engineered decision of using donor rear brakes. Just say no.
Power brakes, think about it. In either case, use the complete setup, as the pedal ratios and leverages are two completely different systems, and the parts are not interchangeable.
Spindles - adapting the donor spindles can result in high steering effort, the F5 spindles are superior in that aspect alone, much less losing the monkey bits to make strut spindles act like double ball joint ones.
Motor mounts - some are now reversing them and moving the engine forward, it actually improves balance, makes room for headers and starters, etc. That's just bolt on until you get to the header fit and driveshaft.
Battery mount - delete the rear trunk kit, it has it's disadvantages, balance and short cable lengths are better up front.

Why does the F5 kit incorporate some of it's features? Because the average potential kit buyer shown a standard built kit side by side with the mods I describe would rate it higher. Race car sells. On the track, the modded car would be superior in handling and braking. You can't see performance, what the average buyer sees are tokens of it as they interpret it by looking at other high performance cars. The key is that what one kind of car does may be inherently wrong for another. Real racers understand that and know that sometimes things are counter intuitive, or that the principal may have to be applied in what looks like the opposite manner.

Case in point, the battery - daily drivers have it up front in their nose heavy design, the "race car" way is trunk mounted. BUT - the kit is actually lighter in the nose, 49/51, moving the battery and engine forward helps fix it. Correct principle, opposite solution.

What a lot of mods do is fix the "race car" indulgences inflicted on the kit for sales purposes and get it better. When you start off by correcting fundamental issues to make the car what it can be, then mods are a requirement, not an option.

[mikiec]

When I built 2290 13 years ago. It was by the book and no mods. I have added only one since then. A batterybox by FFmetal. Hated the stock location after having to swap out 2 batteries.

So yes it can be done.

[Scud67]

Thanks tirod - I will probably include some mods to fit my needs, but will try to get away with as little as possible.

mikiec - nice to know. Have you wanted to do any more and just decided that it was too much of a PITA to do now, or are you happy with the car as it is? What engine set up did you go with? Any photos? Thanks.

[ram_g]

It seems to me that if you buy a "kit" it should go together without having to modify things at all....

Just reading this thread now, sorry I frequent the other forum more.

There's something about the original post here that has not been addressed by any of the responses to date. Which is - some of the "mods" are required so that the kit goes together at all, let alone being a modification to improve or add some feature. For example, in my build I have had to grind the frame in areas to allow clearance that should have existed, modify several of the aluminum panels to allow them to fit, modify the body cutouts for the sidepipes, roll bars, windshield, etc., and I'm sure I'm forgetting lots of others. Many or most builders have had to do these and more - in some cases you read of folks having to cut and re-weld parts of the frame to allow something to fit.

This is not intended as a FFR bash - overall I am delighted with my kit and would do it again in a heart beat. The issue is expectation management - the statement quoted above is simply not accurate at face value.

So then, if you accept that you need to make some small "mods" as a matter of course as you build one of these kits, going from there to making more specific mods to add or improve a feature is a small, small step. After all, if you're going to whip out the air nibbler to slightly shape an aluminum panel to allow it to fit, what's the difference between that and adding an access panel? That's how it starts, and then it's a mighty slippery slope.

So if were to answer the OP's question directly - I would say NO!

[MPTech]

Depending on your definition of a modification, I would not consider cutting or grinding to fit a panel a kit modification, but I understand your point.
I would consider this part of Building a car as opposed to Assembling one.
Manufacturers Assemble cars, we BUILD them. If you cut a hole for a gauge or drill a hole for a switch or to run a wire, I don't call that modifying the kit, it's building it. Building requires customization to fit parts.

I think the spirit of his question was modifications above and beyond the build manual.

I'm very proud of the fact that I BUILT my car and it wasn't just assembling it.

[edwardb]

I agree with MPTech's response. I don't consider cutting or grinding or fitting to be a modification. One of the common misconceptions -- and I think could be FFR's fault for possibly over-selling the "ease" of building -- is this is an "insert tab A into slot B" kind of assembly. Like a large version of a snap together plastic car kit. It's not. Every one is a custom build in some way because there are so many variations of parts that can be used. That's one of the reasons I commented about using a complete kit, because the variation is reduced somewhat. But there still will be some fitting and adjusting required. Mentioned was the body cutouts. What is provided still requires final sizing based on the individual build. Same with the hood, trunk and doors. They are purposely oversized and require some fitting. The aluminum panels fit pretty well. The Mk4 is improved over the Mk3 in my experience. But some adjustments and even some slight trimming or bending may be required. But this is quite different from a "mod" where the footboxes are made larger, the firewall is moved, the trunk expanded, etc. Those are all clearly mods. In two builds, I haven't had any reason to do any welding. Not even close, and I've incorporated many mods. Examples of reasons for welding that I've seen are because of a mid-shift transmission that can interfere with the existing 3/4 inch tubes in the transmission tunnel, or changing the location of 3/4 tubes in the trunk to expand the trunk size. There are others, but none I've required or attempted.

[ram_g]

Yeah, don't get me wrong - I have zero problem with the fact that it isn't a "insert tab A into slot B" deal and it requires more work than that - that is absolutely the part that I enjoy the most. My point was that there was a gradual continuum of effort / time / cost along the spectrum of "fitting and adjustments" to "just a slight mod to improve something" to "boy it would be great to have this additional functionality" to "I want to knock everybody's socks off with this awesome mod". Once you're on this slope, it's hard to recognize where to apply the brakes.

Or at least that's my excuse for why it's been 6 years and I'm still building!!

[rwantin]

We are passionate about our cars and building them ourselves makes them very personal. I can't tell you the sense of pride you feel when a fellow builder notices one of your customizations, points it out, and says "Nice Job!", then asks you about it in detail. It's what building these cars is all about. I really feel there is a "brotherhood of builder". I can talk for hours to someone that has built one (even if I never met him before), but someone that "bought" a built car, we just don't have much in common, except the appreciation of an awesome car!

I have been reading the build threads with great interest, as it is very cool to see what goes into these. Why? Because I recently bought mine. I was admittedly fearful of this notion...that I was not a builder thus couldn't understand, and certainly that is true. I love the car more than any I have ever owned (far too many), and have been doing a fair amount of work to it. Still, not a builder, and for that reason was sort of reluctant to accept the invite to the Snake Pit for the Cruise. You guys really do some amazing work on these cars...if anything, I am envious.

[Scud67]

Thank you again for the replies.

MPTech and edwardb - I agree that doing cutout shaping and panel adjustment/ fitment would not be a "modification", and that was my intention with posting the question in the first place. I knew that the kit would require some tweaking here and there. I was asking about actual modifications that HAD to be done to build the cars. It seems as though some people have built theirs without any, and most have done at least some of the modifications.

ram_g - As stated above, I would not consider cutting and shaping of panels to be a modification per se.... but I would consider welding and reworking the framing to be modifications of the kit.