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Thread: Front tires rub. What did I do wrong?

  1. #1
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Unhappy Front tires rub. What did I do wrong?

    Where did I go wrong?
    Both front tires rub on the frame but I think I followed the recommended wheel & tire sizes.
    FFR Manual, page 472: front optimum tire size: 215/45/17

    Here's what I have:
    2006 WRX sedan aluminum lower control arms
    FFR upper control arms - driver side cut per manual revision
    eyeball alignment - not exact yet, but close
    17 x 8 Enkei Racing RPF1 wheels
    215/45ZR-17 Michelin Pilot Super Sport XL tires (20 psi), overall diameter 24.7"
    Ride height: 4.5"

    Both sides rub on the frame behind the wheel well at less than full turn.
    front tires rub frame.jpg
    Last edited by AZPete; 07-25-2014 at 09:33 PM. Reason: added ride height
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

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    I haven't reached this point yet, but I do know that I am planning on using 17x7 wheels on the front with 215/40/17 tires to try and avoid an issue like this. I'm sure others could chime in on how to fix your problem. I think I remember Jerome using some type of spacer to assist with clearance on the front so might be worth while checking with him.

  3. #3
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    I thought the 215/45/17 was a typo? I believe they later corrected it to be 215/40/17 or less than a 24.0" overall tire diameter. Also, what's the offset on those wheels?
    818S - #67 (SOLD IT!)
    Delivered: 18 November 2013
    Go Karted: 29 December 2013
    Titled/Registered: 28 March 2014
    Finished: NEVER!
    341 hp @ 4844 RPM / 389 tq @ 3717 RPM

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    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Hi Pete,
    You need to flip over you LCA bushing and put the squiggle on the bottom. This will move the bushing toward the outside of the car. That will result in the ball joint moving forward.
    LCRrightrear.jpg
    Bob

  5. #5
    818 builder metalmaker12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    Hi Pete,
    You need to flip over you LCA bushing and put the squiggle on the bottom. This will move the bushing toward the outside of the car. That will result in the ball joint moving forward.
    LCRrightrear.jpg
    Bob
    This should help along with a 24.0" overall and 35-30mm offset.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Flipping over the LCA bushings, you mean flipping compared to OEM config or flipping over from FFR's config back to OEM's config? What's your point of reference when you say "flip over"?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  7. #7
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    Flipping over the LCA bushings, you mean flipping compared to OEM config or flipping over from FFR's config back to OEM's config? What's your point of reference when you say "flip over"?
    Install them so the like this picture. lcabush818_zpsecf870b5.jpg Credit to Guns for this picture.
    Bob

  8. #8
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Bob, I checked my LCA bushings and you are right. I'll flip them this weekend! I remember lots of forum discussion and questions about the LCA bushings, and being careful, but somehow I got them wrong. Now I hope this correction will clear the tires. Thank you! I'll post the result.

    Jerome, the wheels have +35mm offset. I checked the FFR revisions I have and don't find any correction to the 215/45/17 size. If it was a typo then was there some forum post I missed? I studied the wheel & tire thread carefully before ordering but found so many differing opinions that I went with FFR's recommendation of 215/45/17. I'll flip the LCA bushings and hope I didn't make an expensive mistake buying wheels and tires. Thanks for helping!
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

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    Also, was this with the car still on the dolly or lowered down on the ground? From what I recall, the car should have more clearance when it's actually sitting on its wheels.

    This is from the 1H manual.

    818S - #67 (SOLD IT!)
    Delivered: 18 November 2013
    Go Karted: 29 December 2013
    Titled/Registered: 28 March 2014
    Finished: NEVER!
    341 hp @ 4844 RPM / 389 tq @ 3717 RPM

  10. #10
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Crap, somehow I missed the 1H update. Thanks, Jerome, for pointing this out. A $300 mistake.
    Yup, the chassis is on the ground at 4.5" ride height.

    Edit: I checked my copy of 818_Manual_rev-1H-update.pdf and there's nothing about tires & wheels. Maybe it's not complete - mine has 25 pages and no mention of tires in the Page 1 index. Strange.

    Is there any way to get ALL Updates so I can be sure I don't make similar mistakes again?
    Last edited by AZPete; 07-26-2014 at 03:26 PM.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

  11. #11
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Pete
    I think you can make them work. I was able to get to 1.5' clearance on my 225/45/16 23.9" toyo R888 16x6.5 x 55 ET rims.
    right clearance.jpg
    Bob

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    Pete,

    I'll PM you the link to the complete 1i manual which is newer than the 1h. The wheel/tire specs are on page 489-490. The LCA mounting is on 76-77.

  13. #13
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link with the complete 1i manual. It looks much more complete than anything else I have.


    Anyone want two 215/45/17 tires? I didn't think so.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

  14. #14
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Thanks to Bompus, I've discovered there are at least two versions of the manual revisions! I thought I had the latest version, 1i, but all I had was the 20-page update and not the 495-page 1i revision. For me the error was costly. Here's the difference so you can check what you have:

    818_Manual_rev-1i-update.pdf 2,209 KB 20 pages (pedal box, accelerator cable, seats, console)
    818-Manual-rev-1i.pdf 55,896 KB 495 pages (complete manual)

    Should there be a Sticky showing the most recent manual version? And, how to get it by 818 owners downloading it, or others buying it?
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

  15. #15
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    Pete, your 215-45-17 tires should fit, that is the spec as in my original, hard copy rev 1C manual on page 472...
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

  16. #16
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Dan, I saw the spec in 1C also which is why I bought 215/45/17 tires, but I didn't get any more tires size info because it was changed to 215/40/17 in the 1H revision, but not the 1H Update. The 1i update does not mention tire sizes but the 1i revision has it as 215/40/17. Today I'll remount the LCA bushings and hope the 215/45/17 tires clear the frame.

    So far I've learned that whenever FFR sends out an update I should ignore it and request a link to download the full manual.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

  17. #17
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    Pete, don't panic yet. I think you will get them to work. If the LCA bushing doesn't work, and I suspect it will, the next question is alignment. If your upper A-arms haven't been adjusted properly, this could push the tire back as well.

  18. #18
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    Pete, are you using steel or aluminum LCAs?
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

  19. #19
    818 builder metalmaker12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZPete View Post
    Dan, I saw the spec in 1C also which is why I bought 215/45/17 tires, but I didn't get any more tires size info because it was changed to 215/40/17 in the 1H revision, but not the 1H Update. The 1i update does not mention tire sizes but the 1i revision has it as 215/40/17. Today I'll remount the LCA bushings and hope the 215/45/17 tires clear the frame.

    So far I've learned that whenever FFR sends out an update I should ignore it and request a link to download the full
    manual.
    Try a 5mm spacer also, you can prob get away with a +30mm offset to just clear fender edge. I will be running +30mm offset all around. I am currently at 215-40-17 +35 front and 255-35-18 +39.

    And I don't read the manuel other than as a reference because it's missing the proper sequence in many build operations.
    Last edited by metalmaker12; 07-27-2014 at 01:18 PM.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Goldwing's Avatar
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    The front LCA rear mount has plenty of pics in the manuals both ways. Heck, I called FFR to verify and they check their floor models which had the squiggle side, hump side, whatever you want to call it side up. Working on the alignment yesterday, I had to flip it to squiggle side,..., down in order to get the caster in spec. With all the confusion, I figured I would wait until there was a compelling reason to flip it. That time came yesterday. Well. I have 17x8's with 215/45/17's mounted on them. Low 40's offset. I hope I can make them work. I bought them a while ago now.
    Rich

    818S in progress. 2007 WRX sedan donor.
    Powered up: 7-8-14, First Start: 7-20-14, Go kart: 8-19-14

  21. #21
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    The manual is a mess, I tried early on to get stuff straightened out, even identified inconsistencies page by page photo by photo before a printed manual existed. They published it with mistakes and didn't revise it

    you need the squiggle down to get the position of the wheel to fit properly, we verified that about 11 months ago. My STI arms give you a little more space as they were designed to increase caster

    As Chris indicated a spacer will help to keep the inside edge off the aluminum too
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

  22. #22
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    Hi Pete,
    You need to flip over you LCA bushing and put the squiggle on the bottom. This will move the bushing toward the outside of the car. That will result in the ball joint moving forward.
    LCRrightrear.jpg
    Bob
    That's the flat tab on the bottom? There's been a lot of discussions on that and it seemed everyone agreed to put the flat tab on the bottom with the tabs installed under the top bracket and over the bottom bracket. If I recall, to do all that we needed to swap the whole bushing from the left arm to the right arm and vice-versa.

    On your pic it looks like that the flat tab is on the top?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  23. #23
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    I attempted to create a list of updates/revisions to the manual. I have links to each full manual version but didn't post in the thread since non-818 owners are supposed to buy from the FFR store.

    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...nual-Revisions

    It is up to date as far as I know.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    That's the flat tab on the bottom? There's been a lot of discussions on that and it seemed everyone agreed to put the flat tab on the bottom with the tabs installed under the top bracket and over the bottom bracket. If I recall, to do all that we needed to swap the whole bushing from the left arm to the right arm and vice-versa.

    On your pic it looks like that the flat tab is on the top?
    Hi Frank
    that picture is of Pete's car (post 4) with the bushing install incorrectly. The squiggle needs to be down like post 7.
    Bob

  25. #25
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Bob my mistake, I quoted the wrong post!! Sorry about that. I'm all good.

    If anyone asks FFR and FFR goes to check on their prototype in the showroom (the one with non-powder coated chassis and no body), that's bad half of the time. If they did not change it since end of April, the prototype has one bushing installed one way and the other the other way.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  26. #26
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    I have the same issue with rubbing on the front with '06 WRX wheels and 215/45r17 tires. These are the factory setup off of an '06 and it seems completely ridiculous that factory five wouldn't tweak the chassis slightly so the standard size tires work without issue.

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  28. #27
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Thanks to all, especially Bob, I've made some progress and learned a bit. As Bob advised, my LCA bushings were installed wrong - he even posted a photo of mine from months ago! I removed the LCAs and remounted the bushings with the "squiggle" down which moved the rear of the LCA about 1/2" inch outward. My 215/45/17 tires still rub the frame but only after an additional 90 degrees of the steering wheel, in other words, at nearly full lock. I will wait until I can get a professional alignment to make sure before I spend $300 for new 215/40/17 tires. I'll just be sure to not turn too sharp in the meantime. Here's where they rub now.
    tire rub after LCA change.jpg
    What I learned is that the manual updates from FRR (1F, 1H and 1i) did not include the revision to the tire sizes. So, before you buy tires, check the most recent FULL manual, not just the short Updates.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

  29. #28
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Hi Pete,
    Glad I could help.
    What offset do you have on your rims. When I have my stock rim with 55 offset the center of steering rotation (kingpin) in closer to the centerline of the tire. The makes the room used by the tire more compact.

    With offsets like 30-35 or spacers makes the swing radius of the tire larger also causing it also to hit the frame.

    After you changed your LCA bushing. You also need to adjust your caster to give you more room.

    Do you have more rub on left side than right side? Mechie3 has a solution for that.
    Bob

    PS: I am an electrical engineer, please understand if I get some of the terms wrong.
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 07-28-2014 at 02:54 PM.

  30. #29
    Senior Member Goldwing's Avatar
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    I see you have aluminum arms. Are they the wrx LCAs or the STI ones? The STI arms have additional caster (the same adjustment we both effectively just made in our cars by flipping the wing mounts) likely helping the clearance more. I wonder if it is safe to adjust/slot/modify the rear LCA mount just a bit more, adding more caster to help with clearance here? Anyone smarter about these things have an opinion here?
    Rich

    818S in progress. 2007 WRX sedan donor.
    Powered up: 7-8-14, First Start: 7-20-14, Go kart: 8-19-14

  31. #30
    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Bob, my 17x8 wheels have 35mm offset. I have adjusted the caster but only by guesstimate and once on the road I'll get a professional alignment. Both front tires rub the same amount at the same amount of turn - nearly full lock. Thanks so much for your help.

    Goldwing, I'm using 06 WRX sedan LCAs and the cost of changing to Sti LCAs would probably be more than new tires. I also wondered about somehow moving the rear LCA mount outward. When I bolted up the mounts yesterday, with the "squiggle" side down, it was tempting to use the outer holes (for station wagon) but then thought it might create other problems so I used the inner (sedan) holes.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

  32. #31
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Pete
    A suggestion I got from someone at FFR was to add a spacer under the steering rack boot to decrease the travel of the rack. I disregarded this suggestion. But that would stop your rubbing.
    Bob

  33. #32
    Senior Member Goldwing's Avatar
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    I was thinking about those same wagon holes, but had the same concerns. I pulled one of my front tires out of the shed and confirmed I have the same issue.
    Studying the setup, I notice the pivot of the rear mount is already outboard of the forward mount, so will a little extra matter? Again, we need smarter minds. Another thought? The aluminum arms have a bolt on pivot that goes to the rear bushing. Adding a spacer there would maintain pivot geometry, but add caster similar to the STI arms. Anyone have an opinion there? Adding a spacer may necessitate longer graded bolts holding that piece on.

    image.jpg
    Rich

    818S in progress. 2007 WRX sedan donor.
    Powered up: 7-8-14, First Start: 7-20-14, Go kart: 8-19-14

  34. #33
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Goldwing View Post
    I was thinking about those same wagon holes, but had the same concerns. I pulled one of my front tires out of the shed and confirmed I have the same issue.
    Studying the setup, I notice the pivot of the rear mount is already outboard of the forward mount, so will a little extra matter? Again, we need smarter minds. Another thought? The aluminum arms have a bolt on pivot that goes to the rear bushing. Adding a spacer there would maintain pivot geometry, but add caster similar to the STI arms. Anyone have an opinion there? Adding a spacer may necessitate longer graded bolts holding that piece on.

    image.jpg
    Hey Pete and Rich
    I am using the wagon holes with sedan arms.
    P1050073s.jpg
    There will be a couple of issues.
    1> shocks to short, working on solution
    2> tires rubbing fenders, wait and see
    3> steering rack extension needed, Thanks Mechie3
    4> upper a arm to short, but I am running lots of camber
    Bob
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 07-28-2014 at 06:15 PM.

  35. #34
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    I've known about the free caster mod for a while, but didn't think it would be necessary on the 818 until the posts above made me want to try it to remedy my tire rub. The good news is that it worked, and I still need to fix the location of my squiggle, which should make things even better. I can go lock to lock with no rubbing at all.







    Here is a link to a long thread, in the later posts you'll see mention of adding spacers. I went with a 12MM thick spacer. http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspe...astor-mod.html

  36. #35
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    rear bushings are upside down, wiggle goes down
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

  37. #36
    Senior Member Goldwing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aero STI View Post
    I've known about the free caster mod for a while, but didn't think it would be necessary on the 818 until the posts above made me want to try it to remedy my tire rub. The good news is that it worked, and I still need to fix the location of my squiggle, which should make things even better. I can go lock to lock with no rubbing at all.







    Here is a link to a long thread, in the later posts you'll see mention of adding spacers. I went with a 12MM thick spacer. http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspe...astor-mod.html
    I can't tell you how glad I am to see this mod vetted and tested by others. I did exactly this with 3/8" aluminum stock and longer bolts. I still had a slight bit of rubbing, so I made a couple 5mm steering rack limiters to clip over the rack inside the inner ball joint. To do it again, I'd start with STI aluminum LCAs, but what's done is done.
    Rich

    818S in progress. 2007 WRX sedan donor.
    Powered up: 7-8-14, First Start: 7-20-14, Go kart: 8-19-14

  38. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by RM1SepEx View Post
    rear bushings are upside down, wiggle goes down
    This was already stated in my post. You must have been distracted by my beautiful pictures.

    So people aren't confused this is referred to as the "squiggle" everywhere else in the thread, not "wiggle".

  39. #38
    818 Builder
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
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    Taunton, MA
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    We modified the steering rack by putting a short length of 1 inch schedule 40 PVC pipe around the shaft under the boot on each side. This limits the steering to about 1 full turn in each direction, but it doesn't rub with 235s on the front.

  40. #39
    Senior Member
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    Jan 2014
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    Tucson, AZ
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    Sigh. I found this post long ago and forgot about it until now of.courde. I'm pretty sure my aluminum LCA bushings are both squiggle side up. I'm debating leaving them this way and limiting the rack, or pulling them and swapping sides to obtain full squiggle-down status. What do y'all think?

  41. #40
    Senior Member metros's Avatar
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    Jun 2013
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    NoVA
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    I would say to pull and swap. Only a bit more work than limiting the steering and it's done.

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