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Thread: Hindsight's build thread

  1. #1481
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    Phil and Mitch:

    That is without driver, but with a full tank of gas. I read online that driver weight wouldn't cross-weight and I was in a super hurry to get this done last night because I needed to go to bed. I tested it this morning with me in it ant it came to 49.7% so I need to re-adjust a bit today.

    I did remember to undo my sway bar links, and also set the tire pressures.

    My 818 has always been fat. I have NO idea why. I have no sound deadening except for what little I added around the fuel surge tank. I'm running Enkei RPF-1 wheels which are known to be light (though I do have 18" wheels in the back which are heavier than 17). Momo racing seats that weigh only like 15lbs each. My engine is stripped down (no air pump, power steering, etc). The only thing that would cause my 818 to be heavier than most is the AWIC and the remote oil cooler, but even then, I think plenty of guys running AWIC come in a lot lighter than me.

    Really baffled at why it's this heavy.

  2. #1482
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    Looks great! Good luck and keep us informed.
    Yes, we found that the rear brakes do as much work as the fronts, so we actually have the same master size front and rear with DT70 up front and DT60 in the rear with a wilwood set up, and the rods neutral. Thing will pull you eyes out under braking!

  3. #1483
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    Retro, which wilwood brake setup do you have? There are two different kits offered and only one of them works for the 06/07 spindles that I have. One kit has 6 piston front and 4 piston rear, and the other has 4 piston front and 4 piston rears but the rears are smaller than on the bigger kit. Only that latter kit works with the 06/07 psindles. Do you find the Wilwood calipers to be sturdy? They just seem so minimal, like they'd flex.

  4. #1484
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    Good luck on Friday.
    My $.02 on corner weighting: 1) Has to be done with the driver in the car and anti-roll bars disconnected. If doing it by yourself set the correct amount of weight in the driver's seat, bags of sand, fertilizer, wood pellets etc... work good for that. 2) After the corner weighting is done reconnect the bars, make sure it doesn't change the corner weight values. If it does adjust the links until it gets back to the previous values.
    818R Build date 10/31/15

  5. #1485
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    Agree on the amount of work the rear brakes do on the car, down the road looking into a pedal assembly could be worth doing. At least for track duty if you can't get the results from your current set up.
    What Daniel suggest for drivers weight in the seat is common practice. The only thing I do differently is I install the sway bar links once I have the corners done while the car is on the scales. I just make sure the link that I have disconnected is adjusted so the bolt just slides into the bar or lower control arm. Either way works.

  6. #1486
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    Thanks guys. Yeah I did re-adjust it this morning with driver weight in the driver seat, 160lbs. It only changed it 0.7%, but I adjusted that down to 0%, and it also required me to update the sway bar link length on one side after the updated corner balance was complete.

    This is what I'm at now, with driver weight in the car:
    Last edited by Hindsight; 09-21-2017 at 12:59 PM.

  7. #1487
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    I'll add it to the post your weights thread. Thanks.
    "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
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  8. #1488
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    Oh wonderful - let everyone be sure to know that I have the fattest 818 out there LOL!

  9. #1489
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    What a day. So damn hot and sunny! 86+ degrees on the track today.

    Car is still overheating when the temps get above high 70's. I can go a couple of laps before I start seeing coolant temps over 225. It will climb from 225 to 235 fairly quickly in the course of half a lap or so at Road Atlanta. But that track has great big long straights and it is tough on a cooling system and brakes. I didn't have temp issues at Roebling which has very few places where you are wide open for long. My oil temps climb then too but I think it's mostly due to the coolant temps climbing. I will be replacing the OE radiator with the Mishimoto one I have sitting in my garage, and also adding some really well-sealed ducting for it. Today on the track, I had to alternate between hot laps and cool-down laps every session. Very frustrating after you've passed a bunch of cars!

    Sway Bar:
    The sway bar made a huge difference on the track but I'm surprised that even at the firmest setting, it still wasn't quite enough to get me to where I want to be. I really can't feel any understeer still, no matter how I enter a corner (IE late apexing and accelerating). But I DO notice that the rear is much, much less loose. So at least I know I'm heading in the right direction. The car feels much more planted now and I can bang curbs harder than ever before and the car doesn't seem upset by it. I catch some air in turn 3 with the right wheels and tires at the apex and when it comes down, it feels very planted. At this point, my options are to try some springs that are 50# lighter in the rear, fabricate a 1" sway bar to replace the 3/4" one I just built, or use a 1" block of aluminum spacer between the frame and sway bar mounting bracket. That would all me to drill another hole in the control arms that is further inboard, giving me more rate on the bar. Without the spacer, the coilover spring would block the swaybar link. Mitch did something similar on his mounts. I think this is the easiest thing to do, and cheapest so I'll probably go that route. Plus I won't have to deal with corner balancing it again.

    Brakes:
    I really like the Hawk DTC-60 pads. Unfortunately they didn't work miracles like I had hoped but they are a big improvement to the Carbotech XP10. They dealt with heat better. I did experience some fade at times but unlike the XP10, they would generally recover by the next braking zone. I experimented with a higher hole for the master cylinder push-rod but the pedal was just too spongy so I put it back to the FFR-specified hole. I did notice that even in the FFR-specified hole that I've been using for a year, after installing the DTC-60 pads and titanium pad shims, the pedal definitely became softer. I did bleed the hell out of the brakes a couple nights ago, running like 16 ounces of expensive brake fluid through them, aided by a full set of 4 speed-bleeders. I really love the speed bleeders and highly suggest them! Very fast, and makes one-man bleeding work great. Much better than the motive pressure bleeder IMHO. Back to braking performance, I hit the ABS a lot more with these pads and no proportion valves. Although they seemed to fade a little at times during a 130 mph stop, pressing on the pedal even harder resulted in even better stopping. I think that's why I hit the ABS so much. If I decide to spend time and money on brakes, I might try adding the brake booster and some cooling ducts. If I want to spend more time and money, I'll get the Wilwood setup and call it a day.

    Harry's Lap Timer totally failed me today. It's always used to worked fine but today it wouldn't auto-start despite saying it was ready and had GPS fix. I believe the GPS fix just wasn't good enough because when it did start once, it wouldn't reset the lap as I crossed the finish line. A number of people had the same issue today. I guess I need to drop $150 for an external GPS receiver if I want it to work. So unfortunately, I have no lap time data to determine how much my mods helped me (if at all). Car sure seemed fast though. I got some Go-Pro so I'll try to time some of the runs by watching those videos.

    Pics and maybe some video to follow. Video won't be that entertaining due to the amount of time I'm doing cool-down laps.
    Last edited by Hindsight; 09-23-2017 at 08:02 AM.

  10. #1490
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    Here is a video of one of the sessions and some pics following. Basically every other lap is a 3/10ths cool-down lap while I let the coolant and oil temps come back down. Watching one of the other sessions I recorded and using a stop-watch, I caught a 1:44.x time which is on-par with my best ever, and that was the last run of the day in peak temps. I believe that I should be able to get to 1:42 in cooler weather, and maybe with an update to the swaybar.















    Last edited by Hindsight; 09-22-2017 at 10:18 PM.

  11. #1491
    Senior Member Rob T's Avatar
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    Hindsight: Interested in the coolant temps you quoted. 125 - 135 seems like an odd number to me. Is that +ambient? Or something else? I typically saw 190-195F when it was around 100F and I was driving probably 6/10. I had way too much oil cooling and could only get the oil to about 210. I am headed to the track on the 6th, now with a single oil cooler, so will be interested to see what happens.

  12. #1492
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob T View Post
    Hindsight: Interested in the coolant temps you quoted. 125 - 135 seems like an odd number to me. Is that +ambient? Or something else? I typically saw 190-195F when it was around 100F and I was driving probably 6/10. I had way too much oil cooling and could only get the oil to about 210. I am headed to the track on the 6th, now with a single oil cooler, so will be interested to see what happens.
    Sorry Rob, brain-fade. Was out in the sun too long yesterday! Coolant temps hit 235, not 135. My oil temps hit 250. Oil and coolant temps probably would have gone even higher had I not backed out of it each time it got up there. If you watch the video, you can see the needle on the coolant temp gauge getting near the top. I was monitoring the actual number on the access port.

    I really need to add ducting for the radiator. I think that will control both the oil temps and the coolant temps. I've just dreaded the ducting project because it's not straight forward on the 818. There are many obstructions in front of the radiator. It's especially annoying the way the portion of the bumper that supports the headlights juts inward into the radiator area. I think I'm going to actually cut that down quite a lot and reinforce it with some aluminum to make up for the loss of material. Also need to seal off the area to the headlights there where the little support bracket is. If I'm going to take the time to add ducting, it's going to be air tight.

    Wayne told me yesterday that he added a huge radiator to the 818R test mule. Said it was bigger in width and height; apparently he had cooling issues at VIR. I'm hoping I don't have to go that far. He's also running a LOT more power than I am.

  13. #1493
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    Ducting the air through the radiator makes a big difference.

  14. #1494
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    Chad did a great job ducting in the front. The AWIC radiator is mounted in front of the main radiator. I have always seen ambient +10F on the air after AWIC. Again, driving about 6/10. The radiator has two fans. One is controlled by a thermostat. The other has a switch so I can run it in the pits, etc. The front of the AWIC radiator got hit a few times during Chad's development days and some of the fins were bent. Later, Chad added some expanded metal at the front of the car. In addition, I installed some 1/2" thick nomex honeycomb to protect the radiators. It does not appear to hurt the cooling any and it protects them from rocks and tire pieces. At 6/10's, I was seeing 195F max with an air temp of 105F, running a 280HP tune. Again, I had massive oil cooling, which helped, I am sure. On the 6th, I have a 320hp tune, the same AWIC and engine cooling set up, but only the oil cooler in the back, which has fans AND is ducted to the scoops in front of the rear wheels.

  15. #1495
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    Good info, thanks Rob!

  16. #1496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    This is what I'm at now, with driver weight in the car:

    Interesting, I'm just 130lbs more than yours with driver in my car.
    What have you done to the car to be so heavy for an H4?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
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    Build Completed Winter 2021

  17. #1497
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    I don't know Frank! The only guesses I have:
    1. Other people are using scales that are a bit more optimistic?
    2. AWIC? But I know a lot of others are running them
    3. 18" wheels and tires in the back?

    Aside from that, the rest of the car is built VERY light. Super dieted wiring harness. Doesn't make sense to me.

  18. #1498
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    OMG, I'm speechless.
    Some guys run under 1800 (see the thread "Post your weight"), there is no way rear 18" and AWIC can make that up. Maybe they add 150lbs to the max.
    Well as long as the car runs great, that's more important.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
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  19. #1499
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    I think a lot of the weights are done with relatively incomplete cars. I'd bet most are the bare minimum to be registered in the owners state and they only gain weight from there as better seats, tires, awics, surge tanks, oil coolers, splash panels, aero bits, interior luxuries, etc. are added, but the weights never updated.
    Last edited by phil1734; 09-25-2017 at 09:43 AM.

  20. #1500
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    The 1,800 lb cars are all Rs except one. The one S that's 1,800 lbs, Phil1734, is naturally aspirated. Removing the Turbo, AWIC Intercooler, AWIC Radiator, AWIC coolant is a lot of weight. Add on smaller brakes, smaller tires/wheels because of not having to handle massive power and the car gets a lot lighter.
    "Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
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  21. #1501
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Ok now it makes sense!
    If we assume Jeff's 818 is a standard OEM-liked finished 818 turbo, then a "makes sense" weight for such a car would be about 2100lbs without driver. Jeff was in the car at 2300.

    2100 is perfectly inline with my car as it is OEM finished, turbo, AWIC and the assumed gained weight of the VR6 and G50 box is about 200-250lbs more than you guys.

    Jeff I think your weight (818's) makes much more sense now!
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
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  22. #1502
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    Gator, I think you are right about other weights... most of them are not fully completed cars.

    Also, I have a full tank of gas, full fluids (including all the stuff for the oil cooler). The AWIC is full of water, using 3/4" hoses, and my remote oil cooler with hoses is also full of oil.

    Another thought is the exhaust manifold. Mine is stock. Guessing some are running headers which are somewhat lighter. Also full size battery.

    Some thoughts on R vs S is that the S windshield adds a lot of weight. Not sure if it's more than the added frame structure on the R though. I have all the R aero except the diffuser and rear wing which I don't think add that much weight. Maybe 10-20 lbs?

    Would really like to see more weights that are all-up, with driver in the car, all fluids in, ready to hit the track. Guessing most of these weights would come up quite a bit.

  23. #1503
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    According to the FFR press materials circa 2013, the S was actually lighter than the R. I expect their S was never as refined as builds are.

    I'd bet the windshield and additional tubes just about cancel each other out. Doors probably cancel with the side impact structure. No passenger seat, a lighter race seat, and the lack of interior and wheel well aluminum are probably the biggest savers. If I ever built another 818 i'd try and bribe my way into getting most of the aluminum cut from .032 and see if they'd let me do a "research project" and layup my own body work out of carbon. I bet I could cut 80lbs out of the car at next to no cost.

  24. #1504
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    Good points Phil. The only thing I'd question is splash guard weight. It can't weight that much I don't think (but I DO agree that if you combined ALL the sheet aluminum including interior frame panels - it adds up quite fast and going thinner would absolutely save measurable weight). My seat weighs 17lbs - probably on-par with most light race seats. Lack of a second seat would save another 17lbs - 20 if you include the aluminum brackets. I probably added 5-10lbs with my firewall. FFR padded door panels probably add 10 lbs. but honestly beyond those items, there isn't much interior to my car. What little carpet I have in there can only weigh 2lbs... it's VERY light.

    Oh yeah, I did build a bigger roll bar - probably 5 extra pounds there.

    I'm just going to say that FFR built my frame extra strong with heavy welds and extra thick tubing. That way I'm not to blame.

  25. #1505
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    Ok, is that the "I've got big bones " excuse? or did they fill your frame with sand before welding it up? Lol

  26. #1506
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    It's a thyroid issue

  27. #1507
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    My completed S with fully upholstered interior, full fat mat sound deadening, wood veneer dash, center console and door inserts, arm rest with storage, stereo, AAIC side mounted with fan and ducting , FFR CF splitter, diffuser, sill extensions and tail spoiler, stock WRX seat 2.0 turbo, 3 in exhaust with cat and muffler, carpeted custom aluminum trunk, custom front inner fenders, side vent scoops, craig's hinges for the hood and trunk, craigs large louvers for the hood and his trunk louver between the humps come in at 1923 with 10 gallons of gas. I have RFP1's 17 inch all around (forgot has front grill too ;-)
    Last edited by RM1SepEx; 09-25-2017 at 06:17 PM.
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  28. #1508
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    After doing a lot of thinking and getting a lot of really great advice from Mitch, I decided to leave the front bar alone for now and go with softer rear springs. I now have a set of 400# Eibach springs waiting to replace the current 500# rears. Ultimately I chose to go this way because I think 500# is a bit heavy for this light car and my not having a rear wing. For example, comparing it to the Porsche Cayman guys who run 300/400 or 400/500 on a much heavier car with similar motion ratios. And more importantly, based on driving observations: It still doesn't understeer at all during corner entry when not trail braking, it's not quite neutral mid-corner, and I can't apply as much throttle as I feel I should be able to mid corner to corner exit because the back-end will come around.

    If you watch my last video where I'm tailgating the black 911 trying to get him to give me a point-by, you might notice he is able to get on the gas earlier and harder than I am in the corners. It's most noticeable when we go around turns 10a and 10b.

    There are a handful of fall track days coming up in October/November so if I have the time, I'll get these springs in and try them out at the track before the year ends.

  29. #1509
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Are you sure comparing a rear-engined Porsche to a mid-engined kit-car is a good comparison? If so, why?
    Where did you get the info the motion ratio of a Cayman is pretty much the same as the 818?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
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  30. #1510
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    Hey Frank, a friend sent me some numbers.... .8-something for the Cayman. I found a forum where someone mentioned something similar but after you mentioned it, I googled it again and it looks like maybe that might not be right. Looks as though it's about 1:1. Even at 1:1, it's still close to 1,000lbs heavier than the 818. But in the end, I just used that as one of several data points - the main data point being how the car feels on the track.

    I hear what you are saying about rear engine vs mid - the rear should have better grip, but it isn't just the 911 I've noticed this with. I'm very frequently slower to accelerate out of corners than other cars (even ones that are a lot slower than me) and I know I'm giving up a time because the rear tires aren't getting enough grip. The softer springs will help that.

  31. #1511
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    I'm very frequently slower to accelerate out of corners than other cars (even ones that are a lot slower than me) and I know I'm giving up a time because the rear tires aren't getting enough grip. The softer springs will help that.
    Very very interested to see your tests on this!
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
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    Build Completed Winter 2021

  32. #1512
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    Hindsight, are you still running the front splitter? If you are it seems like the balance issue could be aero, front downforce from the splitter but no wing to balance it out.
    818R Build date 10/31/15

  33. #1513
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielsDM View Post
    Hindsight, are you still running the front splitter? If you are it seems like the balance issue could be aero, front downforce from the splitter but no wing to balance it out.
    Yes I am and it's definitely a possibility, but I believe I heard from Wayne that the FFR front splitter only adds about 40 lbs of down force at high speeds. If the spring change isn't enough, I might play with adjusting to be shorter.

  34. #1514
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    Some more pics from the track day last weekend at Road Atlanta.

    Yes, I was passing this GT3 RS. But he later passed me at like 150mph on the back straight.









  35. #1515
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Nice pix there. How's your front splitter doing?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  36. #1516
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    Thanks Frank. Front splitter is holding up great. Can't really tell how much of a difference it makes on down-force since I have no great way of testing it other than seeing if the car behaves differently in low vs high speed corners but the tracks I race at are all high speed. The slowest I think I get at Road Atlanta is like 70mph.

  37. #1517
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    Wow, sounds like you were really hauling! Yes, ducting will make a HUGE difference in your temps, and lap times, by both forcing air through the rad and smoothing the flow our the holes in the hood, and not just hitting the bulkhead.
    Your brake fade is weird, I know it sounds crazy, but check and make sure your brake rotors are on the right sides of the car (assuming they are directional). If they are not directional, get some directional front rotors. You also might not have enough rear bias in the car, this car loves rear brakes!!

    Softening the rear springs by 50lbs is the best way to tune in my opinion, you aren't adding weight to the car, your promoting rear grip (which is going to help you get out of the corners and in transition) and you can then start tuning shocks once the basic handling is sorted.

    Good luck!

  38. #1518
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    Quote Originally Posted by RetroRacing View Post
    Wow, sounds like you were really hauling! Yes, ducting will make a HUGE difference in your temps, and lap times, by both forcing air through the rad and smoothing the flow our the holes in the hood, and not just hitting the bulkhead.
    Your brake fade is weird, I know it sounds crazy, but check and make sure your brake rotors are on the right sides of the car (assuming they are directional). If they are not directional, get some directional front rotors. You also might not have enough rear bias in the car, this car loves rear brakes!!

    Softening the rear springs by 50lbs is the best way to tune in my opinion, you aren't adding weight to the car, your promoting rear grip (which is going to help you get out of the corners and in transition) and you can then start tuning shocks once the basic handling is sorted.

    Good luck!
    Thanks Retro. My brake rotors are plain vented - no slots or holes. I definitely don't have enough rear bias, but unfortunately there is no easy way to get it with my setup. I had proportion valves on the front that allowed me to dial DOWN the front some, but the increased pedal effort was just too much and those style bias valves aren't that great anyway; they only slow down the pressure to the caliper - in the end the pressure equalizes. The only way to do it right IMHO is dual master cylinders with a balance bar like the Wilwood setup. One day I may re-do my whole braking setup but not now.

  39. #1519
    Senior Member
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    Aug 2016
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    East Hartford, Ct.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    Here is the final rear shift linkage after cleaning it up and cutting off the bits I didn't need. Have the new custom length cables on it as well. They look a little different than others I have seen, but they work great and have nearly no slop. The length was perfect too. 79" on one and 81" on the other. Can't wait to test drive it and see what it feels like while the gears and synchros are turning. I got high-temp cable housings but also wrapped the cables in heat sleeving as well for added protection.



    Here is the exhaust. I just need to add a bend or two and a short pipe dumping the exhaust out the bottom via hidden tip, and add a wide-band bung to the bellmouth. Hoping for go-kart this weekend.
    Are you making shift linkage pieces? I don't need mounting brackets I just need the arm on the shaft and hardware, bell crank and the rod from the crank to the arm. I have the cable rod ends.

    20171106_135838.jpg, 20171106_135913.jpg
    Last edited by JB91710; 12-08-2017 at 10:21 AM.

  40. #1520
    Moonlight Performance
    Hindsight's Avatar
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    May 2014
    Location
    Atlanta
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    Hi, I'm not making them. Mechie is making them though. They are specific to the 5-speed, if I recall correctly. You might be able to use them on your setup.

    For mine, I just ordered some 1/2" thick aluminum plate from eBay, then cut it out on a table saw, and with a cordless jigsaw (where I couldn't use the tablesaw). All using wood blades which work fine on aluminum. I then used a belt/disc sander to round the adges and smooth things out, then hand sanded with increasing grits of sandpaper to finish off. Drilled and tapped the holes as needed. It was all just like woodworking really.

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