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Thread: Hindsight's build thread

  1. #1321
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    I love the bracket you made! Looks so professional!

    I also wonder if that surge tank can fit the old '33 'Rod tank, there isn't a lot of space between the sides top of the tank and inside of the rear thick aluminum firewall plate.
    Frank
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  2. #1322
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    Thanks Frank! A buddy of mine saw it and told me I need to pull it and ensure my welds continue all the way around or I could get stress cracks. It's only an issue on aluminum apparently. It's just very hard for me to weld aluminum close to the edges on my TIG setup without blowing through the aluminum. The aluminum I used is 3/16 which is at the very upper end of my TIG machine's capability, making it more challenging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian818 View Post
    Is that a radium surge tank? They look nice, definitely on my list to buy. Fairly pricey IMO, but you get what you pay for. I'm curious how loud it will be behind the seat, I recall someone mentioned they're quite loud. Maybe consider using rubber to isolate it from the bracket?
    Yes it is a Radium tank and yes, crazy expensive. I really see no reason it should cost as much as it does. I debated fabricating my own but didn't want to deal with figuring out how to perfectly seal the top of it. The Radium unit is VERY nice quality for sure though. I will let you know about volume. Being an open cockpit car with the engine right behind you, the car is really loud anyway. The surge tank will have a carpeted firewall over it so hopefully that will cut down on the sound some. I will let you know how loud it is. Some of it will be based on how loud the pump itself is since some of them are loud and some are quiet. This one is a Walbro 274 which will support my ultimate power goals of around 500WHP on E85, when the time comes.

  3. #1323
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    I don't think you'll get stress cracks in that. I would have done it the same way, and your welds look good. Trying to get enough heat into that corner would be a pain. Is it 6061? At 3/16 thick it seems to me it would take a lot more stress than just hanging that surge tank off of it to get a stress fracture to creep out of a weld.

  4. #1324
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    Thanks Zach. The aluminum is 5052. I try to use 6061 for most things but had this on-hand. So considering that, you still think I'm good as is?

  5. #1325
    Senior Member FFRSpec72's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    Thanks Zach. The aluminum is 5052. I try to use 6061 for most things but had this on-hand. So considering that, you still think I'm good as is?
    I did not think that 5052 was really something that you could do dependable welding on, as that is why I use 6061.
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  6. #1326
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    Really? I read that 5052 has really good weldability. I'm a novice welder though so any feedback is appreciated.

    Edit, I used 4043 filler. I just did a search and found this which says 4043 works well with 5052: http://www.thefabricator.com/article...-filler-alloy-

    Still open to input as always!
    Last edited by Hindsight; 01-30-2017 at 03:03 PM.

  7. #1327
    Senior Member Canadian818's Avatar
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    4043 is a good filler for anything that see cyclic loading. I've also considered making my own, but I think it'll be a headache. Another option is a cheap eBay tank and just mount the pump externally.
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  8. #1328
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    Got the side skirts installed and re-adjusted the passenger door hinges so the door doesn't drag on the side sail when closing. Need to send the inner splitter support struts off to the powder coater.

    You probably read this already, but on FFR's description of the front race splitter (at their online store) it says they recommend use of the race wing in order to maintain proper traction at higher speeds. If you use the street splitter they recommend the carbon wing like you have. I have no experience myself, but I think FFR tested in the wind tunnel to confirm this.

  9. #1329
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    Quote Originally Posted by ben1272 View Post
    You probably read this already, but on FFR's description of the front race splitter (at their online store) it says they recommend use of the race wing in order to maintain proper traction at higher speeds. If you use the street splitter they recommend the carbon wing like you have. I have no experience myself, but I think FFR tested in the wind tunnel to confirm this.
    Yeah I did read that but I'm going to see what happens on the track. Worst case, I can take it off, but I don't think it's going to make that big of a difference because it's angled in the wrong direction anyway. Mostly an appearance thing for me now.

  10. #1330
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    The splitter is angled in the wrong direction? It will lift the car up?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
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  11. #1331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    The splitter is angled in the wrong direction? It will lift the car up?
    No Frank,
    FFR is recommending the race splitter and race wing together to keep balanced down force front and rear.
    Bob

    Yeah I did read that but I'm going to see what happens on the track. Worst case, I can take it off, but I don't think it's going to make that big of a difference because it's angled in the wrong direction anyway. Mostly an appearance thing for me now.
    Hindsight,
    The shape of the splitter is fine. The down force comes from the slow moving high pressure air on top the splitter and the low pressure fast moving air on the bottom of the splitter.
    Bob
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 01-30-2017 at 08:54 PM.
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  12. #1332
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    Well, the splitter has a ramp on it that will cause some lift to be generated. But the nature of a splitter, sticking out on front of the bumper, means that the air that hits the bumper cant be deflected downward beneath the car. That right there will fight lift but what I don't know is how much that will offset the ramp of the splitter. The only way for me to really know is going to be when I hit the track. If it pushes in the corners at speed, that means it's too much aero in the front. I don't really think that's going to be a problem though, but that is just a hunch I have.

  13. #1333
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    Well, the splitter has a ramp on it that will cause some lift to be generated. But the nature of a splitter, sticking out on front of the bumper, means that the air that hits the bumper cant be deflected downward beneath the car. That right there will fight lift but what I don't know is how much that will offset the ramp of the splitter. The only way for me to really know is going to be when I hit the track. If it pushes in the corners at speed, that means it's too much aero in the front. I don't really think that's going to be a problem though, but that is just a hunch I have.
    Maybe I'm think of this the wrong way. If pushing (front end sliding) you need more front down force.
    Bob
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  14. #1334
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    Sorry Bob, you are right I had it backwards. It's been a long day.

  15. #1335
    Senior Member UnhipPopano's Avatar
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    I take it that the turn buckles supporting the splitter are also used to adjust the down-force. given how far it sticks out and that it does not pivot, how much can you adjust it?

  16. #1336
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    You cant really adjust it at all. The splitter bolts to the bumper all the way around and the bumper is at a fixed angle. The back edge of the splitter ties into the frame and because the bumper sits higher than the frame, again, it means the splitter is not level, it is actually at an upward rake which is the wrong direction for ideal function (I believe). The support braces I installed are there to keep the splitter from deflecting at high speeds - nothing more.

  17. #1337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    Really? I read that 5052 has really good weldability. I'm a novice welder though so any feedback is appreciated.

    Edit, I used 4043 filler. I just did a search and found this which says 4043 works well with 5052: http://www.thefabricator.com/article...-filler-alloy-

    Still open to input as always!
    Unless you're mounting something like a vibratory tumbler on it, I can't see it stress cracking anytime soon. If you made it out of .040 sheet, then yeah it might crack after a while.

    5052 is better for bending, 6061 is better for machining. In my experience they weld about the same, but I'm not a pro. Same filler rod - 4043. Not sure about toughness specs, but I think 6061 is slightly harder/tougher. They might work harden at different rates, but that's only an issue if there's some flex in your bracket - doesn't look like there would be.

    Got me googling. This says 5052 is superior to 6061 for welding: https://www.nemaenclosures.com/blog/...h-differences/
    Last edited by Zach34; 01-31-2017 at 02:05 AM.

  18. #1338
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Boyd 818 gas tanks are 5052 aluminum.
    http://www.fueltankparts.com/factory...-340-pump.html
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  19. #1339
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    Kind of late to the game here, but I was considering an F150 daily driver for all the same reasons you bought one... what kind of gas mileage are you seeing with your normal commute?

  20. #1340
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    I have less than 1,000 miles on it right now so the mileage will improve. Right now, not paying attention to driving it gently, I'm getting around 18 in the city and low 20's on the highway. I have the 2WD version. Hoping to get 20/26 after break-in with gentle driving.

  21. #1341
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    Frank,

    Our bodies/front body work must fit much differently. My front fascia/splitter is at the same plane as the bottom of the chassis. When mounting the body I did have the chassis set on block at ride height with 2x4s extending to the fascia to support it on the same plane as chassis.
    Something to play with next time you have the front end off the car.

  22. #1342
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    Well, the splitter has a ramp on it that will cause some lift to be generated.
    You have to do like me and block the lower front opening, blocking any air that would flow on top of those rear double ramps. At the same time it will increase the pressure difference between low pressure on top of splitter and high underneath.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
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  23. #1343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch Wright View Post
    Frank,

    Our bodies/front body work must fit much differently. My front fascia/splitter is at the same plane as the bottom of the chassis. When mounting the body I did have the chassis set on block at ride height with 2x4s extending to the fascia to support it on the same plane as chassis.
    Something to play with next time you have the front end off the car.
    Mitch, I mounted the front bumper per the manual which says it's supposed to be about 1.5" higher than the plane of the bottom of the frame. The bumper height also impacts the fender height as well and since I already have tires rubbing on fiberglass of the fenders, I worry that having the bumper lower down even with the frame would make the clearance issues even worse.

  24. #1344
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    This thread is getting to many posts it's hard to keep up. lolll

    Mitch, I think you meant "Jeff" and not "Frank", but that's ok.

    Jeff, so far my front end is about the same height as the frame, around 4.5", give or take 0.5 for the front end. 1.5" diff would be way too much for me, won't fit at all on the side sails.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
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  25. #1345
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    I had it wrong, the manual states the bumper should be 1/2" above the frame. That is what I set it to. So any splitter you install will have a slight upward ramp, unless you lower it down a half inch and make some sort of filler panel between the bumper and the splitter. Alternately, you could lower the nose a bit but I don't want to do that and lose wheel clearance, plus my whole front end is already setup and installed to that height so it would be a major pain.

  26. #1346
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    I had it wrong, the manual states the bumper should be 1/2" above the frame. That is what I set it to. So any splitter you install will have a slight upward ramp, unless you lower it down a half inch and make some sort of filler panel between the bumper and the splitter. Alternately, you could lower the nose a bit but I don't want to do that and lose wheel clearance, plus my whole front end is already setup and installed to that height so it would be a major pain.
    Hindsight
    I don't have my splitter installed yet.
    The lip on my splitter is about 1/2" . So it would be even with the bottom of the chassis. Not counting where the splitter is raised in the middle.

    This is the best picture I have where the camera is the same height as the bottom of the car.

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  27. #1347
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    Lower the nose!
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  28. #1348
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scargo View Post
    Lower the nose!
    p car open fender.png
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  29. #1349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    I had it wrong, the manual states the bumper should be 1/2" above the frame. That is what I set it to. So any splitter you install will have a slight upward ramp, unless you lower it down a half inch and make some sort of filler panel between the bumper and the splitter. Alternately, you could lower the nose a bit but I don't want to do that and lose wheel clearance, plus my whole front end is already setup and installed to that height so it would be a major pain.
    Oh, 0.5", yeah I got that, or so. Can't remember the manual I lost a couple of sheets. 0.5 is easy to get. In my case pretty much how I was trying to get the panels on right it ended up about 0.5 over. Does the splitter need to be at the exact same level as the bottom of the frame?
    Frank
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  30. #1350
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    Thanks for the pic Bob!

    Frank, if you want ideal aero, the answer is yes, and the splitter should be flat too. Basically an extension of the frame. Ideally.

  31. #1351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canadian818 View Post
    Is that a radium surge tank? They look nice, definitely on my list to buy. Fairly pricey IMO, but you get what you pay for. I'm curious how loud it will be behind the seat, I recall someone mentioned they're quite loud. Maybe consider using rubber to isolate it from the bracket?
    I got the wiring and plumbing done and turned the pumps on. Wow, both pumps are crazy loud, running on the full 12 volts without a fuel pump controller. I'm going to use some expensive sound deadening stuff on the back of my firewall to help quiet them down a little. I also made and installed block-off panels that cover the seatbelt area and also the area near the side of the tank that is wide open with the new tank.

    Not shown in the pics is a discriminator valve on the top of the tank. It goes in like a bulk head fitting. I drilled a hole for it right next to the fuel pump top (in the metal tank), installed it, and ran hose from it to my home made charcoal cannister. It bolts to the fuel tank like a bulk-head fitting and allows the tank to breathe, but won't allow fuel through it. Also doubles as a rollover valve. That is my one and only vent now for the tank. Hydramat is in place too.

    I need to replace the bulk-head fitting that goes through the firewall. It sticks out too far and hits the front portion of the firewall. I already have a new bulk head fitting that is 90 degrees. Just need to install it. After that, the part I'm dreading: Fabricating a new firewall. I don't have tooling to bend .125 aluminum so I'm going to just cut and weld anywhere that needs a bend.... there should only be three bends the way I am planning it. I'm only dreading it because it will take a long time. Then I need to make a cover panel for the ECUs and relays. Then carpet the firewall. Lastly, I need to make a belt guard for the alternator belt. If it goes, it could whack the fuel fittings and fuel lines and possibly break them or knock them loose and spray fuel everywhere.





    Last edited by Hindsight; 02-16-2017 at 09:05 PM.

  32. #1352
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    When I needed some some 8-foot long sheets of 16-gauge stainless bent for a workbench top I was making, I managed to find a local sheet metal fabricator who was able to do it for me rather easily.

    If you don't already have the .125 sheet you intend to use, I would search for a sheet metal shop of some kind in your area. If you can find one that works with aluminum, they might be able to source the best alloy for bending for you. I don't know what alloy the kit-supplied firewall is, but I know it's tough to get thick 6061 sheets to bend to 90 degrees before breaking. 5052 might be better, I'm not sure. Judging by the marks on the kit-supplied firewall, it was done in a large press brake - like a 35-ton or more kind of thing. I can't think of a business off the top of my head that would have one of those, but that's the tool you need.

    Cutting and welding would be a good exercise in drawing a nice long bead in aluminum, but if it's like the kit-supplied firewall and there's no boxing anywhere, I would worry about warping. Please share your experience if you weld it. I'm considering fabricating my own fuel cell (ATL will make a custom bladder to fit your enclosure), which would be a similar welding job.

  33. #1353
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    Question about having the fuel and surge tank between two firewalls. If you get a small leak, how would you know?

  34. #1354
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    Zach, there are some metal places locally and they would bend it for me but the cost would be high and I don't think I can get angle estimates accurate enough using cardboard mock-ups to make it fit 100% properly the first time. I have the aluminum already (I've been getting my metal from eBay because even with shipping, it's cheaper than local) so I just need to get started. Good point about warping but I haven't had a big problem with that when welding thick aluminum yet. Hopefully I don't on this firewall piece!

    UnhipPopano: Really no different than on any car where you have a fuel pump top and hoses that are sandwiched in between the top of the tank and the floor of the trunk. I would probably smell the fuel since the firewall will probably have some small gaps here and there and it won't be sealed with weather stripping or anything that fancy. If it's bigger than that, then it would leak down onto the garage floor since the floor pan has drain holes in it. When I had a bit of fuel slosh into my charcoal can and slowly drop out under the side sail, the smell was quite strong, so I'm figuring I will be able to smell a leak here too.

  35. #1355
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    I hope you are right, as the explosion / ignition point of fuel is a ratio of oxygen to fuel. Too much or too little and nothing will happen. With fuel vapers heavier than air, and a semi enclosed area like the hull of a boat, you may have an unsafe design. On boats, the areas that store fuel need to have ventilation that will remove any vapers that may escape from the tank or fittings. [http://www.boatingbasicsonline.com/c...ral/4_2_d.htm]

  36. #1356
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    As shown in the pic below, the floor pan comes from the factory with a lot of vents. It isn't like a boat that 100% has to be perfectly sealed or it will sink. You are limited with options on the 818 anyway, if you are paranoid about fuel vapors. You could choose to not install a secondary firewall, but then you have no heat shield between the engine and the fuel tank, and the exhaust manifold is less than a foot away from the fuel tank which I didn't like. Heck, you can see the exhaust manifold in the pic and it's more like 4" away from the tank, or less.

    Last edited by Hindsight; 02-17-2017 at 12:51 PM.

  37. #1357
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    Replaced the bulk-head fitting on the fuel system tonight so the firewall would clear the hoses.

    Also fabricated a belt guard that protects the fuel lines and fittings right above the alternator pulley.

    Pics below, including the discriminator valve on the fuel tank.

    Started mocking up the new inner firewall with cardboard and will start building it out of aluminum Saturday.






  38. #1358
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    Driver's side firewall is done. I need to carpet both firewalls, build a cover for the ECU panel and wiring, then put everything back together. This fuel surge tank project was quite an undertaking. A lot more hours than I thought it would require. I'd say I still have a good 8-10 hours to wrap up that stuff and get everything back together. Probably not going to happen this weekend though so maybe next.


  39. #1359
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    QC, Canada
    Posts
    5,732
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    That looks beautiful.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  40. #1360
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
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    831
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    That looks beautiful.
    +1.

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