Who is planning on running NASA ST classes

[johngeorge]

Id like to get an ida who is gonna race NASA SU? ST1? ST2? or ST3? and in what NASA region?

[C.Plavan]

I'm looking at shooting at ST1, Maybe ST2 with a stock motor depending on weight. I'm in Central California, so I can race Northern or Southern Region. Southern will probably be my home though. My goal is a NASA race in October.... If my dry sump from Element Tuning EVER gets here (1+ months of excuses.)

[Mitch Wright]

Like Chad I plan on ST2 depending on what WHP I end up with and the as raced weight. ST1 is more likely right now with my current projected HP. I have also discussed how the car will be classed for SCCA club events.
My Kit has be built and believe it will be delivered in the next few weeks. What is a bummer is work getting in the way of getting started once the car gets here. My target completion is next spring.

[FFRSpec72]

John, if my challenge car stops braking or I stop hitting things and get the 818R finished, we will run in ST2 or ST3 in NASA and SPU or ST (10:1) in ICSCC/SCCA. If I build it to run ST in ICSCC then it will run ST3 in NASA. SPU would be like SU but limited to under 2.0l so have more of a chance in SPU then SU, so can run SPU in ICSCC and SCCA. So my target is to build the 818 to be capable of being competitive in ST2, ST3, ST an SPU without any changes except weight (ballast)

[Brando]

I am shooting for ST1. You better run Southern Chad!

[Brando]

Does this seem accurate for NASA modification factors?

Non-Production -4 (-7 for st3)
2200 lbs -0.3
Size 245 or smaller (DOT approved) = +0.7

I would like to assume NASA will follow suit on the 65 and roadster and go with -.2 (-.5 ST3) for the Non-production

-.2 -.3 +.7 = +.2 (tire size/type permitting)

5.7 @ 2100lb/368hp ST1
8.2 @ 2100lb/256hp ST2

Is this correct?

[johngeorge]

Brando, Don't assume anything with NASA ST rules. They will be on the conservative side to start with any new car and you will have to prove that you are not competitive to get a help with the #s.

2999-2600 lbs -0.1
2599-2200 lbs -0.2
2199-1800 lbs -0.3
1799 lbs or less -2.0

I think its best to have your minimum weight at the minimum of the weight table, as close to 2200lb or 1800lb. Tune your car/add/remove weight to get the power/weight as close as possible...

Non-production = -0.4 (-0.7 for ST3)
2200 lbs = -0.2
DOT-approved Tire Width 245 or smaller = +0.7

2200lb/407HP = 5.505:1 ST1
2200lb/278HP = 8.014:1 ST2
2200lb/239HP = 9.005:1 ST3


Non-production = -0.4 (-0.7 for ST3)
1800 lbs = -0.3
DOT-approved Tire Width 245 or smaller = +0.7

1800lb/327HP = 5.505:1 ST1
1800lb/225HP = 8.000:1 ST2
1800lb/193HP = 9.026:1 ST3

[C.Plavan]

FYI- Here is a link to the calculator that can help.

http://www.nasaproracing.com/racing/...r_2014_v1.xlsx

[FFRSpec72]

you will have to prove that you are not competitive to get a help with the #s

I'm doing a great job of that that this year with the challenge car, I may be able to carry that over to the 818 if I ever get it done.

[Santiago]

Think I'll likely be in ST2 to start. Midwest region for me, so I'll try to represent the 818R on this side of the country. =)
Sadly, that won't be for a couple of years at the rate I work...

[Bill Waters]

ST1 or ST2 for me. It's just a question of how much boost I elect to run (invested in Cosworth short block assembly, so it will take it), though the idea of a reliable 350 whp (and therefore ST 2) seems to make a lot of sense. Though I have most of what I need to finish, still a ways off.

[Doowop]

ST2 probably , Rocky Mountain region

[Brando]

a reliable 350 whp (and therefore ST 2) seems to make a lot of sense. Though I have most of what I need to finish, still a ways off.

I believe you will be in ST1 with that much HP. Might as well go 400HP

[Sgt.Gator]

This is a great thread to discuss. I'd also like to throw in that we should be thinking about what a "Spec 818" class would look like.

Tony, I don't see how we can race in ICSCC ST. The class requires that all cars be true production cars, and no tube frame cars. "All vehicles must be based on OEM series production street cars that were sold as complete vehicles (chassis and drivetrain) by the manufacturer to the general public in the USA or Canada. Tube-frame cars are not eligible." So unless we can get the ST guys to change the rules, that's not possible.

And for ICSCC SPU is out too. Yes, you could run a less than 2 Liter engine, but don't forget the 1.4 x modification factor for a turbo, so that puts you in the SPM class. The good news is the 2.5L times 1.4 is still in the SPM class. "Super Production cars shall compete in 3 classes, over 4.0 litres or 20B rotary powered (SPO), 2.0 – 4.0 litres or 13B rotary powered (SPM), and under 2.0 litres or 12A rotary powered (SPU). SP cars shall meet the safety requirements of Section 1303. A. with no minimum weight and will resemble a production car in appearance. Cars fitted with superchargers and/or turbochargers shall use a displacement factor of 1.4 to determine classification."

So for ICSCC the only class we fit in is SPM, and SPO if you want to go up a class.

My plan:
ICSCC SPM
NASA ST 3 or 2.
I may build a N.A. H6 EZ30R, which would fit right in SPM and ST3. If I later feel the need for more power I could turbo or SC it and move up the ST2 or 1 and SPO. I've seen the two other Subaru turbos in our ICSCC ST class blow up this year (except my Legacy GT EJ255, 305 to 335 AWHP, fingers crossed) so I'm looking for a little more reliability without powering up the boost.

If we could come to general agreement on what we'd like to see in a Spec 818 that would be helpful for the future. Something that resembles the NASA ST 2 or 3 class mods would be nice. For sake of discussion:
8" max wheels
245 max tires, potentially a spec tire.
FF Splitter and Wing
Any Subaru engine and transmission, but limit power to 9 or 8 to 1.
No capability to change maps from inside or outside the car while on track. (No Cobb Accessport in vehicle).

[FFRSpec72]

Tony, I don't see how we can race in ICSCC ST.

If we could come to general agreement on what we'd like to see in a Spec 818 that would be helpful for the future. Something that resembles the NASA ST 2 or 3 class mods would be nice. For sake of discussion:
8" max wheels
245 max tires, potentially a spec tire.
FF Splitter and Wing
Any Subaru engine and transmission, but limit power to 9 or 8 to 1.
No capability to change maps from inside or outside the car while on track. (No Cobb Accessport in vehicle).

Yea, I forgot about the modification factor, so for SCCA and ICSCC its the regional SPM or ITE class rules. If ICSCC changes to the use the NASA STx rules that would be great, as the only thing we need in ICSCC ST rules is a change to allow the usage of tube frames and maybe we can push for that next year.

Spec class

8" max wheels (17" or 18" or mixture)
Toyo RR 245 max tires, potentially a spec tire.
FF Splitter and Wing and any other aero supplied by FFR
Any Subaru engine and transmission (5sp), but limit power to 9 or 8 to 1 (prefer 8 to 1) then we can have a 8:1:8 class
Stock ECU (USDM or JDM) No capability to change maps from inside or outside the car while on track. (No Cobb Accessport in vehicle).

[Sgt.Gator]

"Spec class
8" max wheels (17" or 18" or mixture)
Toyo RR 245 max tires, potentially a spec tire.
FF Splitter and Wing and any other aero supplied by FFR
Any Subaru engine and transmission (5sp), but limit power to 9 or 8 to 1 (prefer 8 to 1) then we can have a 8:1:8 class
Stock ECU (USDM or JDM) No capability to change maps from inside or outside the car while on track. (No Cobb Accessport in vehicle)"

I love the 8:1 power 8" wheel 818 class!

The above specs would put us in both NASA ST2 and our own spec class in ICSCC or regional SCCA if we get a couple of more cars...

Some folks will want the 6 speed if for nothing else the reliability, but it would add a significant cost to a spec class type car. I have the 5 speed in my 3300 LB Legacy GT race car and it's held up fine for me and for Subaru NA/Phoenix Racing when it was raced in the Grand Am Cup. So if the 5 speed can take a 3300 lb car at 305 HP, I'm pretty confident it will be fine in a 2100 lb 260 HP car. And 5 speeds are much easier to source and cheaper to replace than a 6 speed.

[Bill Waters]

I believe you will be in ST1 with that much HP. Might as well go 400HP

....and also, as they say, because I can!

[FFRSpec72]

"Spec class
8" max wheels (17" or 18" or mixture)
Toyo RR 245 max tires, potentially a spec tire.
FF Splitter and Wing and any other aero supplied by FFR
Any Subaru engine and transmission (5sp), but limit power to 9 or 8 to 1 (prefer 8 to 1) then we can have a 8:1:8 class
Stock ECU (USDM or JDM) No capability to change maps from inside or outside the car while on track. (No Cobb Accessport in vehicle)"

I love the 8:1 power 8" wheel 818 class!

The above specs would put us in both NASA ST2 and our own spec class in ICSCC or regional SCCA if we get a couple of more cars...

Some folks will want the 6 speed if for nothing else the reliability, but it would add a significant cost to a spec class type car. I have the 5 speed in my 3300 LB Legacy GT race car and it's held up fine for me and for Subaru NA/Phoenix Racing when it was raced in the Grand Am Cup. So if the 5 speed can take a 3300 lb car at 305 HP, I'm pretty confident it will be fine in a 2100 lb 260 HP car. And 5 speeds are much easier to source and cheaper to replace than a 6 speed.

Some issues as it's going to be hard as Toyo the narrowest they make is a 235/40/17 tire and I doubt that we could fit that in the front, as I think folks were having issues with a 225 tire and had to go to a 215. I'm getting ready to order rims soon and the widest tire I think the 8" rim will handle is a 225, maybe a 235

[wildhorsesracing]

It is our plan to run in NASA ST-3 with a stock 2.0L turbo engine and 5 speed in the Southeast.

There is so many options for our cars why create a spec class when the NASA ST classes fit all of our cars?

[FFRSpec72]

It is our plan to run in NASA ST-3 with a stock 2.0L turbo engine and 5 speed in the Southeast.

There is so many options for our cars why create a spec class when the NASA ST classes fit all of our cars?

Constraints make the racing a little more competitive and affordable

[C.Plavan]

Check the class sizes before you commit. There are 0 st-3 cars in the region I will race.

[Zach34]

Trying to at least make some sort of decision about this now, even though I'm a long way from wheel-to-wheel events, because I will be sending my engine out to get rebuilt soon.

I have a pretty decent EJ257 from a 2005 WRX STI (it ran pretty well before I tore the donor apart). My question is, do you guys feel this is a motor that can be "de-tuned" easily for ST2, or am I better off just aiming for ST1 from the start.

I have no wheel-to-wheel racing experience, so obviously I have some "prerequisites" to accomplish. I'll start with autox, track day multiple times, complete driving schools, then race. ST1/ST2 is a long ways away for me, but I want to build the car for that end-goal rather than actually try to be competitive in autox and have to overhaul the engine/chassis/tuning strategy for road course duty.

[FFRSpec72]

Trying to at least make some sort of decision about this now, even though I'm a long way from wheel-to-wheel events, because I will be sending my engine out to get rebuilt soon.

I have a pretty decent EJ257 from a 2005 WRX STI (it ran pretty well before I tore the donor apart). My question is, do you guys feel this is a motor that can be "de-tuned" easily for ST2, or am I better off just aiming for ST1 from the start.

I have no wheel-to-wheel racing experience, so obviously I have some "prerequisites" to accomplish. I'll start with autox, track day multiple times, complete driving schools, then race. ST1/ST2 is a long ways away for me, but I want to build the car for that end-goal rather than actually try to be competitive in autox and have to overhaul the engine/chassis/tuning strategy for road course duty.

You also have the option to add ballast, fuel, extra weight, etc. much easier than switching tunes (or forgetting to switch).

[Zach34]

You also have the option to add ballast, fuel, extra weight, etc. much easier than switching tunes (or forgetting to switch).

Very true. I guess another part to my question is whether or not there is a skill/experience jump from ST2 to ST1? In other words, as a less experienced driver, would I be smart to aim for the lower-power class?

[JeromeS13]

Very true. I guess another part to my question is whether or not there is a skill/experience jump from ST2 to ST1? In other words, as a less experienced driver, would I be smart to aim for the lower-power class?

It depends on your local region. I know some of our fastest cars are in ST2/ST3.

[Santiago]

It depends on your local region. I know some of our fastest cars are in ST2/ST3.

Same here (NASA Midwest). Since ST1 permits higher hp, it also tends to cost more to produce/maintain those figures. So I suspect the difference in classes has more to do with what you can afford rather than skill level. We've got guys who have been running in ST2 for a long time because they've built a reliable platform around which they can fine tune their cars and then develop their driving skills and race craft. They're very fast now...

NASA publishes its race results (at least our region does). So just for perspective, pick a track you'll likely frequent and take some time to look over the lap times for the last couple of years. When I do that, I notice two things:
1. ST2 cars are fast, seriously fast
2. They're getting faster every year
Class rules haven't changed much, but drivers skills and tire compound/selection does. As a heads up, the front runners are not running Toyo RRs nor even Hoosier R6/A6, they've moved on to softer slicks.

Best,
-j

[C.Plavan]

I can probably only add about 15 WHP from the stock TD04 to stay in ST2 because of weight/HP. Again, I would not mind jumping to ST1 later with bigger turbo, but ST2 has the bigger turnout for tire contingency money.

[FFRSpec72]

It depends on your local region. I know some of our fastest cars are in ST2/ST3.

Agree same here, as we have a local conference (Canada, Washington and Oregon) and we have a ST class which is a 10:1 class (and excludes tube frames), so I can't compete for championship but I can run with them in ST3 trim. The NASA ST3/GTS3 champion is in that class with a BMW R (v8).

[Santiago]

The NASA ST3/GTS3 champion is in that class with a BMW R (v8).

Go get him Tony!

I'm really just hoping to see an 818 take a championship...any championship. I think this platform has some real potential.

-j

[Scargo]

FFRSpec72 : Eight inch rims is pretty small. It's not a go-cart!
I may spend 2015 testing tuning and playing, then decide if I want to be in ST-2 or ST-1 or just play...

I saw the FFR car run away from everyone at Watkins Glen in a pathetic powered car (I think). I know what it is capable of. That was when I became interested.