Sizing a Coyote Footbox

[4.6 litre]

My objective is to size both the DS and PS footbox to accommodate the Coyote engine. And hopefully install a footbox modification either sized by myself or install an existing builder’s design modification. Should anyone like measurements taken during this process please let me know.

The plan is to:

• Compare the standard F5 DS Inside Vertical Panel (IVP) with the standard F5 DS 4.6L IVP, if necessary

• Install Coyote engine (Coyote engine with 3/8 inch spacers) in bare chassis. Take measurements if required.

• Install Stainless Headers Mfg Coyote SS headers with F5 standard DS 4.6L IVP and standard F5 PS IVP. Take measurements as required.

• Determine DS FB accelerator pedal expansion

• Determine DS FB dead foot pedal support.

• Determine PS FB expansion.

I’m doing this first because I have never worked with sheet metal before and this mod has been driving me nuts since the first month (11/2013) I contemplated putting a Coyote engine in a roadster

All of these FB modifications have been done previously by pathfinder roadster builders but they all differ somewhat. I hope by doing this exercise I will become experienced in doing sheet metal mods, provide information that will be useful to other potential builders and/or verify that an existing builders mod will work for my roadster.

At the present time I have a bare chassis, the Coyote engine, engine mounts, a Moroso roadster oil pan and Stainless Headers Mfg Coyote SS headers. The Whitby Motorcars 3/8 inch engine spacers should arrive this week. I think I am pretty much Good to Go now.

I’ve attached pics of the bare chassis and SS headers. Pics of the Coyote engine and the Moroso oil pan have been posted previously on “Lifting a Coyote Engine”. If anyone wants them reposted let me know.

Your comments are appreciated.

Regards,
Damien

[Jester]

Hi Damian,

You may already know this however here are some comments:

Doing the mods to the foot boxes can be quite time consuming but is well worth the effort - do not rush this. Making templates out of thin cardboard sheets and tape will save time and frustration. You may want to make the cardboard template of the DS trans tunnel side of the foot box panel first as per the drawings and measurements illustrated by another forum member (I believe DaleG had this listed on one of his posts - if I recall), or as per your own design, then mount the cardboard template in place followed by test fitting the engine. Once you have the panel the way you want it - move onto modifying the FFR supplied panel to match your template.

I used a hand shear to cut the aluminum and a bench mounted brake for the necessary bends (tools less than $200).

Take your time and the results will reflect your effort.

Once you complete the modification to this one panel you will find making other modifications to any of the aluminum panels very easy - this is very gratifying once completed as no other roadster will be exactly like yours.

Note - you will want to mount the gas peddle before permanently mounting the DS trans tunnel foot box panel and outer foot box panel as having access to this area is important as this will make gas peddle installation much easier.

For reference I have attached a few pic's of my foot box mods - loads of room on the DS (gas pedal area and cylinder head area). Although no one has complained (even those few 6'2") and it is not necessary, I should have also extended the PS footbox forward to match the DS (I would do this next time around).
DS Footbox inside.JPGDS Footbox outside.JPGPS Foofbox Outside.JPGPS Footbox inside.JPG

[DaleG]

Jester's mods look perfect. Also check out 2bking's mods on the other forum (not sure if he frequents this one). I did almost the same as Jester, but not nearly as neat.

[2bking]

Damien, check out my build thread and PM me if you are interested. I have drawings that can be printed full size to make the layout much easier.

[Jester]

Jester's mods look perfect. Also check out 2bking's mods on the other forum (not sure if he frequents this one). I did almost the same as Jester, but not nearly as neat.

Ah yes - 2bking is the builder with the nice foot box templates available.

Thx for the clarification Dale

Good to see King has posted a reply with a link to his work. Kings mods are very clean and the design and template looks great - I would not hesitate using King's template's as these will save you time and frustration.

Good luck.

[Davidbr_48]

Hi -

I installed a Coyote crate engine in my Roadster without having to make any mods to the footboxes. I was able to use the accelerator pedal that came with the Coyote engine "as is" without making the mods shown in the FF manual for installing the Coyote. Only thing is, the inside wall (i.e., next to the engine) of the driver's footbox that comes standard with the FF kit has to be replaced with one designed to fit the Coyote. FF provided that to me at no charge. Hope this helps.

David / Tucson AZ

[4.6 litre]

Thanks guys,

It's great if this thread could capture all the various types of Footbox mods for the Coyote engine install. I almost didn't buy the Coyote because I was apprehensive about doing these mods. Fortunately I followed the advice of you guys' which was, "build the car you want" .

Regards,

Damien

[Jester]

Hi -

I installed a Coyote crate engine in my Roadster without having to make any mods to the footboxes. I was able to use the accelerator pedal that came with the Coyote engine "as is" without making the mods shown in the FF manual for installing the Coyote. Only thing is, the inside wall (i.e., next to the engine) of the driver's footbox that comes standard with the FF kit has to be replaced with one designed to fit the Coyote. FF provided that to me at no charge. Hope this helps.

David / Tucson AZ

David, Interesting

Perhaps FFR has redesigned this panel, however with my Mk4, FFR supplied a stock inner DS panel originally designed for the Ford 4.6l mod motor. As the Coyote is built on the Ford Mod engine platform and the panel does fit however the DS head rubs against the panel and space for the gas peddle foot is very limited (unless the driver has smaller feet). With the mods to the panel the issues regarding space for head clearance and gas peddle are significantly improved which positively impacts the driving experience (creature comfort), safety (peddle access for larger feet) and possible future sale (broader market not limited to smaller feet).

It would be nice to know if FFR is now supplying a new inner panel that addresses head clearance and increases the space for the gas peddle on the trans tunnel side (?)

[2bking]

Quote Originally Posted by Davidbr_48 View Post

Hi -

I installed a Coyote crate engine in my Roadster without having to make any mods to the footboxes. I was able to use the accelerator pedal that came with the Coyote engine "as is" without making the mods shown in the FF manual for installing the Coyote. Only thing is, the inside wall (i.e., next to the engine) of the driver's footbox that comes standard with the FF kit has to be replaced with one designed to fit the Coyote. FF provided that to me at no charge. Hope this helps.

David / Tucson AZ

David I'm curious as to how you used the accelerator pedal without the mod suggested. The FF mod mangles the pedal just to get it to bolt in. I installed the Modular sheet metal and like Jester, I couldn't get my foot on the accelerator pedal without hitting the brake pedal. But the deciding factor in having to change something was the hitting the accelerator pedal when going for the brake. But I have the Wilwood pedal box and maybe there is a new FF Modular panel. Pictures would help.

[DaleG]

David, some pics of the DS footbox inner panel (in and out), and of your pedal install would be helpful.

Cheers, Dale

[Jester]

David I'm curious as to how you used the accelerator pedal without the mod suggested. The FF mod mangles the pedal just to get it to bolt in. I installed the Modular sheet metal and like Jester, I couldn't get my foot on the accelerator pedal without hitting the brake pedal. But the deciding factor in having to change something was the hitting the accelerator pedal when going for the brake. But I have the Wilwood pedal box and maybe there is a new FF Modular panel. Pictures would help.

King,

I installed my gas peddle without any mod to the actual peddle as I did not want to change the throttle response - I only modified the peddle mount area - you can see the peddle in the photo I posted above.

[4.6 litre]

Damien, check out my build thread and PM me if you are interested. I have drawings that can be printed full size to make the layout much easier.

King,

I received your drawings and they're fantastic. They are very professional. Since there are 3 options I'll want to make cutouts of all of them. My wife is telling me to just take the easiest one and sent it out to a tin knocker. I'm not ready to do that. I want to learn from this. With all the information I've received from you all. I should be in a good position to proceed. I'm a happy camper!

I'll keep you all posted.

Thanks for the files
Damien

[2bking]

King,

I installed my gas peddle without any mod to the actual peddle as I did not want to change the throttle response - I only modified the peddle mount area - you can see the peddle in the photo I posted above.

David, Jester,
Good job! I didn't realize it could be done. I spent a few minutes with it and the FF instruction and came to the conclusion it was too large. I assume the fasteners showing on the front of the foot box are the ones securing it.

Jester, your sheet metal mod looks to have more foot room than mine and is well done.

[4.6 litre]

Will the motor mounts alone support the Coyote in the bare chassis or will I needed to provide additional support? I just want to drop the engine in and install the new headers.

Regards,

Damien

[Jester]

I have attached a few pic's before and after the FB mod for Coyote as well as a few pic's for the what I needed to do to the base of the gas peddle mount to install.

Coyote DS Foot Box Aluminum:
FFR Original Aluminum Pannel - Coyote Gas Peddle Clearance - no mod - 1.jpgGas Peddle Clearance - after pannel mod.jpg

Head clearance after pannel mod - 1.jpgHead Clearance - pannel Mod - 2.jpg

Coyote Gas Peddle install
Coyote Throttle Peddle - Installation.jpgCoyote Throttle Peddle - Peddle Base Modification - 1.jpgCoyote Throttle Peddle - Peddle Base Modification - 2.jpg

Note: I sent FFR details and pictures of my gas peddle install but I never got a reply. I think my install is much easier and cleaner than the FFR install and OEM throttle response is maintained (no cutting of the peddle arm). The critical issues with this install is that the mounting base of the throttle peddle needs to be clear of the steering shaft (ZERO interference). I needed to drill a few new holes to mount the peddle.

[Jester]

Will the motor mounts alone support the Coyote in the bare chassis or will I needed to provide additional support? I just want to drop the engine in and install the new headers.

Regards,

Damien

Yes, mounts will support the engine (my Coyote was well balanced on the frame mounts) - you will need to attach the engine mounts to the engine block, drop the engine in and secure the frame/engine mount bolts. Be very careful that the chains are properly secured to the engine and that the bolts used to secure the chains to your engine block are large enough so there is no way they can slip through the chain loops. This happened to me and it was not fun (I was alone and no one got hurt when the engine swung free from one of the lift mount bolts).

[4.6 litre]

FYI

I had a verbal conversation with a technician at FRPP this morning. There is no M-6007-M50K 5.0L Engine Assembly Specification however there is one for a M-6007-A50NA 5.0L Engine Assembly. I was inquiring about the torque for the header bolts. He informed me that everything in the A50NA applied to the M50K except some internal engine torque values. Since I’m only concerned with external engine bolts I going to follow that document for bolt torque. As my Father would say, this information and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee, use at your discretion.

Damien

[Davidbr_48]

Here are a couple pix of my pedals.gas pedal.pngpedals.png.

I trimmed part of the Ford gas pedal so I could move it close to the inside footbox wall, and FF sent me a flat plate to mount it on.

[DaleG]

Here's the instructions: http://www.fordracingparts.com/downl...6007-A50NA.pdf

[4.6 litre]

DaleG

Thanks for the spec I guess it was online. What do they mean then they give two sequential ratings for torque, i.e., "Exhaust manifold nuts: 18 then 26 lb-in" on pg 7 of 11?

Thanks and regards,

Damien

[DaleG]

I'm thinking initial round at 18, starting on center nuts and working outwards (back and forth until all are @ 18). Then same sequence again to 26.

Can anyone confirm this?

[4.6 litre]

I'm thinking initial round at 18, starting on center nuts and working outwards (back and forth until all are @ 18). Then same sequence again to 26.

Can anyone confirm this?

DaleG - I was interested in the header bolt torque which also seems to have two values plus sequence. I found some information on 2011+ Mustang GT Tech Forum at

http://www.allfordmustangs.com/forum...fications.html

I apologize if my misled you. When you read the discussion you'll see confirmation of your method and another variation. I hope I haven't cause anyone an inconvenience.

Regards,

Damien

[4.6 litre]

DaleG

Thanks for the spec I guess it was online. What do they mean then they give two sequential ratings for torque, i.e., "Exhaust manifold nuts: 18 then 26 lb-in" on pg 7 of 11?

Thanks and regards,

Damien

FYI

The "18 then 26 " was under the lb-in column in the 6007-A50NA specification. The values should have been under the lb ft column for the conversion from Nm to work.

Regards

Damien

[DaleG]

So, its 18, then 26 lb-ft, not lb-in? Thanks.

[4.6 litre]

I have attached a few pic's before and after the FB mod for Coyote as well as a few pic's for the what I needed to do to the base of the gas peddle mount to install.

Coyote DS Foot Box Aluminum:
FFR Original Aluminum Pannel - Coyote Gas Peddle Clearance - no mod - 1.jpgGas Peddle Clearance - after pannel mod.jpg

Head clearance after pannel mod - 1.jpgHead Clearance - pannel Mod - 2.jpg

Coyote Gas Peddle install
Coyote Throttle Peddle - Installation.jpgCoyote Throttle Peddle - Peddle Base Modification - 1.jpgCoyote Throttle Peddle - Peddle Base Modification - 2.jpg

Note: I sent FFR details and pictures of my gas peddle install but I never got a reply. I think my install is much easier and cleaner than the FFR install and OEM throttle response is maintained (no cutting of the peddle arm). The critical issues with this install is that the mounting base of the throttle peddle needs to be clear of the steering shaft (ZERO interference). I needed to drill a few new holes to mount the peddle.

Jester,

Those are great pics. Those are the kinds of photos I am going to take. You beat me to the punch. There was someone who make a rivnut access plate in the interior wall to gain access to the header bolts. I don't know how many times one would need to access the bolts but once would probably be enough to justify an access plate. That's one determination I want to make during this process.

Regards,

Damien

[DaleG]

Jester,

Those are great pics. Those are the kinds of photos I am going to take. You beat me to the punch. There was someone who make a rivnut access plate in the interior wall to gain access to the header bolts. I don't know how many times one would need to access the bolts but once would probably be enough to justify an access plate. That's one determination I want to make during this process.

Regards,

Damien

It was me that installed an access panel for the DS head. When engine goes back in, I'll let you know if it works. But I agree that torquing is probably not possible.

[4.6 litre]

Guys,

Couple of questions:

Q1) Do I need to also remove the header mounting studs before I drop the Coyote in the chassis and if so what type of handy dandy socket do I use to remove them? Does anyone know the size. (I'll also check the spec)

Q2) I used duct tape and painters tape to cover the manifold openings. Should one not be used or is one preferred over the other?

Thanks for your response

Damien

[Jester]

[QUOTE=4.6 litre;166380]Guys,

Couple of questions:

Q1) Do I need to also remove the header mounting studs before I drop the Coyote in the chassis and if so what type of handy dandy socket do I use to remove them? Does anyone know the size. (I'll also check the spec)

Q2) I used duct tape and painters tape to cover the manifold openings. Should one not be used or is one preferred over the other?

Thanks for your response

Damien


It is recommended that you remove the studs and replace with proper bolts as the studs limit the accessibility for the socket/nut in several tight areas (bolt heads are easier to access for tightening etc.). I recall the bolt size was previously posted if you look through the earlier Coyote posts. I left the studs in and managed to tighten all of the nuts (I did not torque though - 18 & 26 ft lbs is a good tighten with a ratchet - not to difficult to reach 26 ft lbs)

Re tape - either is fine - (nothing a little solvent can't remove if tape residue if left)

[4.6 litre]

[QUOTE=Jester;166384]

Guys,

Couple of questions:

Q1) Do I need to also remove the header mounting studs before I drop the Coyote in the chassis and if so what type of handy dandy socket do I use to remove them? Does anyone know the size. (I'll also check the spec)

Q2) I used duct tape and painters tape to cover the manifold openings. Should one not be used or is one preferred over the other?

Thanks for your response

Damien


It is recommended that you remove the studs and replace with proper bolts as the studs limit the accessibility for the socket/nut in several tight areas (bolt heads are easier to access for tightening etc.). I recall the bolt size was previously posted if you look through the earlier Coyote posts. I left the studs in and managed to tighten all of the nuts (I did not torque though - 18 & 26 ft lbs is a good tighten with a ratchet - not to difficult to reach 26 ft lbs)

Re tape - either is fine - (nothing a little solvent can't remove if tape residue if left)

Jester,

The following is from the F5 Coyote Spec. Pg 19:

"Ford Racing Alternator, pipe fittings, Shallow oil pan
Exhaust
Remove the Stock Mustang headers.
Remove all of the header studs using a 6mm 6 point socket."

The stud has a torx head and it fits a 6mm socket. Are you suggesting replacing it with a shorter hex head bolt or a shorter torx bolt?

Can a 6mm socket be use to take out a 6mm torx? I'm concerned about stripping the head.

I'm still searching the forum for an exact description of the replacement bolt. Worst case I'll just call FRPP for the stud grade and pitch.

Regards,
Damien

[DaleG]

Here's the info I used, from another Coyote build:

All the studs can be used on the passenger side.
On the drivers side, all the studs need to be removed to slide the headers on. I then used the studs because they thread in easier where I could. The DS looks like this from front to back:
Top Row: Stud, bolt, stud, stud.
Bottom Row: Stud, bolt, bolt, bolt.

Hope this helps you.

Cheers, Dale

[2bking]

Q1) Do I need to also remove the header mounting studs before I drop the Coyote in the chassis and if so what type of handy dandy socket do I use to remove them? Does anyone know the size. (I'll also check the spec)

The studs are superior to putting bolts into aluminum and don't strip when torqueing so I wouldn't remove them until all other options are exhausted. I was able to install the Stainless Headers onto the studs (both sides) with the clearance I had and get a wrench on all nuts when I checked out the mods I had done.

Can a 6mm socket be use to take out a 6mm torx? I'm concerned about stripping the head.

A 6mm socket isn't the same shape as the 6mm torx socket but if it fits without much play it will probably work. Both have six repeating shapes. If it starts to spin on the stud the torx will still work.

[Jester]

FYI: I have copied below a technical note received from FFR regarding the header bolt sizes (hope this helps):

Ford Racing has brought to our attention that the 5.0L Coyote cylinder heads have been manufactured with two different header bolt thread specifications. Most use a coarse, M10X1.5mm thread, while some others use a fine, M10X1.25mm thread. The table below details production change dates:

Production Date Range Stock Header Stud Thread Type
03-22-2010 to 09-08-2010 M10 X 1.50mm (Coarse)
09-09-2010 to 01-18-2011 M10 X 1.25mm (Fine)
01-19-2011 and later M10 X 1.50mm (Coarse)

Factory Five supplies header bolts with 1.5mm pitch, which apply to all but about 3 months of engine production. Once you have removed the stock header studs, compare the studs to the supplied bolts and ensure that they match. As an additional confirmation, thread the bolts in several turns by hand. If they do not match, and you find that you require the 1.25mm pitch bolts, you’ll need to obtain a set of bolts to match. This spec would be:

M10 (dia) X 1.25mm (pitch) X 25mm (length ), Grade 8.8

[4.6 litre]

Thanks for all the information,

I was going to call FRPP this morning for the pitch and grade of the stud but I thought I'd check the Forum first. Glad I did. I'm really glad you guys have my back. It's taking time but I'm learning something new every day. I'm enjoying this.

Thanks again,

Damien, slow and steady

[bansheekev]

Not to complicate things even more but my Coyote's header bolts were M10 X 1.25mm (Fine) and I verified the manufacturing date of my engine was February 2013. I would recommend not going purely by the manufacturing date guidelines but actually checking what you have.

I almost bought coarse ones but decided to pull a stud and take it to the hardware store to verify on a thread gauge. Glad I did, saved me an extra round trip with Summit when purchasing the Stage 8 locking header bolts. I used these: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/stg-8914.

Kevin

FYI: I have copied below a technical note received from FFR regarding the header bolt sizes (hope this helps):

Ford Racing has brought to our attention that the 5.0L Coyote cylinder heads have been manufactured with two different header bolt thread specifications. Most use a coarse, M10X1.5mm thread, while some others use a fine, M10X1.25mm thread. The table below details production change dates:

Production Date Range Stock Header Stud Thread Type
03-22-2010 to 09-08-2010 M10 X 1.50mm (Coarse)
09-09-2010 to 01-18-2011 M10 X 1.25mm (Fine)
01-19-2011 and later M10 X 1.50mm (Coarse)

[4.6 litre]

Guys,

Thanks for the info.

Attached is a pic of the stud with a measuring ruler. I removed it with a E8 Torx, just gotta love those nuts and bolts.

Regards,

Damien

[4.6 litre]

Just some pics of the motor mounts on the chassis. The bolt and pin are in the slots. It seems as if the tightness of the bolt is the only thing which will prevent movement in the slot or pin. I was expecting a better fit, any comments?









Regards,

Damien

[DaleG]

Don't forget spacers between chassis brackets and the motor mounts.

[2bking]

Just some pics of the motor mounts on the chassis. The bolt and pin are in the slots. It seems as if the tightness of the bolt is the only thing which will prevent movement in the slot or pin. I was expecting a better fit, any comments?

The bolt is what keeps it all together. The engine torque is somewhat resolved perpendicular to the frame mounts so there not much force trying to slide the mount on the frame perch. I'm not sure what the purpose the pins serve other than get the left and right motor mounts correctly installed. You can't argue with the success of thousands of engines mounted this way.

[4.6 litre]

Don't forget spacers between chassis brackets and the motor mounts.

DaleG,

Spacers from Whitby won't be here until the middle of next week. I bought some M14-2.0 nuts and washers for bolting the motor mounts to the frame. This way I don't have to us the nylon locking bolts that came with the kit at this time. I'll save those for the permanent mount. I'll put the spacers on next week. I just want to get the engine in for now.

Thanks for the reminder.

Damien

[4.6 litre]

The bolt is what keeps it all together. The engine torque is somewhat resolved perpendicular to the frame mounts so there not much force trying to slide the mount on the frame perch. I'm not sure what the purpose the pins serve other than get the left and right motor mounts correctly installed. You can't argue with the success of thousands of engines mounted this way.

King,

Thanks for the response. I was just waiting for that. My wife and I are going to drop the engine. This should be fun. She's learning a lot about this also. It becomes a great business conversation starter for her. Everyone she does business with inquires about the progress of the car. Beside the Tide, Alabama is car country.

Regards,

Damien