Oil issues: Dry Sump, Accusump for road racing?

[DodgyTim]

Hi Gator, I'm not in a super rush as my current plan is registration about Xmas time. It will be easier for me to pass inspection with the Killer B stuff I've already fitted, then change to the DS system prior to tracking.
Your kit sounds well thought out, please keep progressing - I reckon there is a good market for an 818 specific kit as more people (like me) finally face the facts about needing a DS

[Hindsight]

Hey for all you H6 guys wanting a dry sump..... Element Tuning is working on one right now, just FYI.

[Sgt.Gator]

Scargo: Doesn't the oil pump only get oil directly from the DS tank? If that tank became empty wouldn't the oil pump starve, while the engine fills?

Yes and Yes.

Hindsight: That's good news. I spent a few hours with the H6 Tech Manual and examining them in person. I don't see how it will be possible to do it. If he can figure out how to do it on a H6 and a FA20 that's awesome.

Dodgy: I'll keep you posted.

[NevaLift2Shift]

SgtGator, Keep me in the loop about the dry sump system. I'm really starting to believe that my hopes of tracking the car with slicks and 300+ hp is probably going to cost me a shortblock or three.

I already spent over 1k on Killer B stuff and an AOS, now it looks like I won't be using any of it. I've found a few Cosworth kits, wouldn't mind one of those, but it sounds like the cog drive is not going to clear?

[Hindsight]

The killer-b stuff and AOS would sell really fast on Nasioc, for quite close to what you paid for it - just FYI.

[Sgt.Gator]

SgtGator, Keep me in the loop about the dry sump system. I'm really starting to believe that my hopes of tracking the car with slicks and 300+ hp is probably going to cost me a shortblock or three.

I already spent over 1k on Killer B stuff and an AOS, now it looks like I won't be using any of it. I've found a few Cosworth kits, wouldn't mind one of those, but it sounds like the cog drive is not going to clear?

I don't know if it will or not. The local 818 here is still waiting to put his engine in. I'll have a better idea after hooking up with Retro or Tony at the next race.

[Sgt.Gator]

Below is the sketch of my new oiling system after losing my engine last month.

Can anyone recommend an inline vacuum regulator?
Thanks
Bob

Bob I looked at your drawing again and realized the Aeromotive pressure regulator I linked won't work in this fashion. It's a straight thru design meant to be between a vacuum pump and the engine block. In your drawing it would see no vacuum becuse one end of your line is at atmosphere pressure at the breather can. So there will never be enough vacuum in the line to open the regulator. Your design is an open system, not a closed block system that will create a vacuum.

If you want it to be a closed system with vacuum you can use the Aeromotive regulator the way I did by capping it off. In your drawing eliminate the line between the breather can and the regulator. Put a cap where that line used to go into the regulator.
Here's what mine looks like:

Aeromotive Regulator Capped Off.jpg

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob I looked at your drawing again and realized the Aeromotive pressure regulator I linked won't work in this fashion. It's a straight thru design meant to be between a vacuum pump and the engine block. In your drawing it would see no vacuum becuse one end of your line is at atmosphere pressure at the breather can. So there will never be enough vacuum in the line to open the regulator. Your design is an open system, not a closed block system that will create a vacuum.

If you want it to be a closed system with vacuum you can use the Aeromotive regulator the way I did by capping it off. In your drawing eliminate the line between the breather can and the regulator. Put a cap where that line used to go into the regulator.
Here's what mine looks like:

Aeromotive Regulator Capped Off.jpg

Hi Gator,
My Aviaid parts will be here Monday except for the tank.

I understood that the Aeromotive and all the vacuum reliefs/regulators I found a auto parts sources wouldn't work because there is no way to put a fitting on the air intake side.
The only thing I can fine is the industrial (heavy) types.
Maybe I'm over engineering this and should just go with something like this with a KN filter hat.

http://www.gzmotorsports.com/VCV101A...rol-Valve.html
Bob

[Hobby Racer]

Hey for all you H6 guys wanting a dry sump..... Element Tuning is working on one right now, just FYI.

Definitely interested in a DS pan for the H6! Please keep us posted.

[Zach34]

Doesn't the oil pump only get oil directly from the DS tank? If that tank became empty wouldn't the oil pump starve, while the engine fills?
I have never seen a serpentine belt break... on anything, but I've heard a lot of them squealing.

Yes the oem oil pump draws from the DS tank, and yes if the tank empties it will starve the oem pump and you will have no oil pressure - probably an instantly blown engine. But that's why there are at least two scavenge pumps. The scavenge side of the system must always out-pump the pressure side so the tank stays full and oil does not flood the crankcase. That's why the scavenge side draws a lot of air along with all the oil and pulls a vacuum on the crankcase. A very thoroughly thought-out system might include some indication or warning light if the scavenge side of the system fails (hose tears, pump fails, or belt fails). A vacuum gauge that triggers a warning light when engine vacuum is lost might be a good solution, if that even exists. That could accompany an oil pressure gauge that triggers a warning light when oil pressure is lost, which is standard in a lot of cars. I'm hoping one of the digital dashes can be configured to do that without adding separate gauges.

A serpentine belt should be fine. I mean, heck, they are OEM on every single car out there any nobody changes them for 100k miles, it seems. And those belts are driving huge A/C compressors and power steering pumps.

[C.Plavan]

If you can drain the DS tank, fill an EJ motor with over 8 Quarts of oil, and starve the oil feed line, you have bigger problems.

[RetroRacing]

WE have ours installed!! Will post pics soon, we decided to seal the block and use the Peterson Vacuum control to set the vacuum in the engine. Should start then engine tomorrow night, I was away last week, they moved the test day and made it impossible to make.
We got really lucky in the mounting of the pump, the shifter cables run under the intake......and are now through the scavange pump belt! Oh, and that is a big tank, with our new wing mount supports (the wing was bending the frame at 5 degrees) the thing barely fits.
We have made a bunch of changes to the car, next test at the end of the month at the Ridge.

[Sgt.Gator]

Retro will you be racing at PIR or just doing the Test & Tune day? I'm planning on coming up if you're doing the Enduro but I can't make it for test&tune.

[RetroRacing]

We are deciding on the endure after the testing at the ridge at the end of the month. I will let you know asap, will need you and hopefully Tony as well for at least one tire change and 3 fuel stops.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I got some of the parts in for our Aviaid dry sump system.
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post251839

[Sgt.Gator]

I got some of the parts in for our Aviaid dry sump system.
Bob

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post251839

Nice! You're the first person I've seen anywhere with the John's DS pan. And I see he sent you the side outlet pump, that's going to be very nice when you are installing and maintaining your system.

The thing I REALLY like on the pan is the oil return inlet (to the OEM pump) fitting doesn't interfere with the scavenge outlets. It does on the ARE pan, this is much better.

In comparison to the Cosworth pan....we noticed the Cosworth pan has a remarkably heavy and thick stainless steel "baffle", but really just a solid piece of steel that's elevated slightly above the aluminum pan, to protect the pan from the oil flinging off the crank and pistons. This pan doesn't have that protection. I'm guessing Cosworth did that from experience of the effects. This is my way of saying that you should monitor your aluminum levels in your oil with a Blackstone analysis at each change and annually drop the pan for an inspection inside for degradation.

Unlike the Cosworth pan that seals with an O-Ring, this one seals like the oem. You could use Fuji Bond or Permatex Right Stuff to seal it to the block per the FSM. But FelPro makes a composite cork/rubber pan gasket you might try instead. In reading the dry sump installs on small block V8s where pan gaskets are still used they like the cork-rubber composite gasket better than an all rubber one. I bought the FelPro one to give it a try. Sometimes the Fujibond/Permatex sealant makes such such a tight seal it's a hell of a lot of work to make it break loose and you end up damaging the block side face with little dents. https://www.amazon.com/Fel-Pro-OS306.../dp/B000C2EE5I

I'll ask John if he can run an O-Ring cut in the face of his DS pan and source an O-Ring to fit. That would make it much easier to drop and re-install the pan for inspections of the crank and pan after every couple of races.

And since I know John doesn't send instructions:
1) You don't use the shims in the packet, bolt the pump direct to the mount.

2) The Fenner bushing is a much better way to connect the pulley to the pump shaft, but of course they don't tell you the torque. For future reference I think it's a Fenner Trantorque Mini. I had to ask him the torque specs, here's his answer: "Actually its 585 inch pounds or 48 foot pounds. Also if you put it on with the nut behind the pulley, you are working with the direction of rotation to tighten the bushing. Technically it should not matter. On the fitting you turn it to where you want it and then tighten the nut against the housing. You should be able to get it to point wherever and then tighten the nut against the housing to compress the o-ring and lock the fitting into place."

Call or email me anytime you want to discuss it.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Gator,
Thanks for your comments an advice.

The Aviaid pan has an o-ring at the pump inlet (not shown in my pictures). I am worried about using a gasket as I might not compress the o-ring properly.
Bob

[Zach34]

In comparison to the Cosworth pan....we noticed the Cosworth pan has a remarkably heavy and thick stainless steel "baffle", but really just a solid piece of steel that's elevated slightly above the aluminum pan, to protect the pan from the oil flinging off the crank and pistons. This pan doesn't have that protection. I'm guessing Cosworth did that from experience of the effects. This is my way of saying that you should monitor your aluminum levels in your oil with a Blackstone analysis at each change and annually drop the pan for an inspection inside for degradation.

I don't follow. Why would the pan degrade? I'm pretty sure that baffle is there to keep the windage of the crank from pushing oil away from the scavenge ports. The Aviaid's is just a little different looking.

[C.Plavan]

Gator,
Thanks for your comments an advice.

The Aviaid pan has an o-ring at the pump inlet (not shown in my pictures). I am worried about using a gasket as I might not compress the o-ring properly.
Bob

Good call.

[Sgt.Gator]

Gator,
Thanks for your comments an advice.

The Aviaid pan has an o-ring at the pump inlet (not shown in my pictures). I am worried about using a gasket as I might not compress the o-ring properly.
Bob

Good point, it probably would cause a problem.

I don't follow. Why would the pan degrade? I'm pretty sure that baffle is there to keep the windage of the crank from pushing oil away from the scavenge ports. The Aviaid's is just a little different looking.

The Cosworth "baffle" could have been made much lighter and probably cheaper from aluminum. Everything else in the kit is aluminum and designed around creating the lightest possible parts. But that part is strikingly different, it's a much heavier piece of stainless steel. The same thicker stainless steel they use in their Subaru oil control plate with the rubber flaps. There is a reason they did that. It's worthy to note that the OEM Subaru baffle is steel and the Killer Bee oil baffle is stainless steel "Made from stainless steel for long life, durability and corrosion resistance." But the Killer Bee pan is aluminum.

It's possible that aluminum would flex too much so they went stainless for rigidity. I don't know the exact reason, I'm just saying that it's a warning flag worthy of keeping an eye by inspecting your oil pan.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

We mocked up our Aviaid dry sump install on my blown engine.

My forester AC compressor bracket wouldn't work. Fortunately I had one off an Impreza:
ac bracket.jpg

Then mounted the Aviaid pump adaptor bracket.
Aviaid pump .jpg

Then Mounted pump: I choose holes based on easiest access to bottom fitting:
Aviaid pump brackeet.jpg

Then mounted belts. This belt is 2" longer than the original AC belt.
Just noticed that the belt packages our on opposite sides.
belts.jpg

Done:
done.jpg

[walt555]

Do we need the connection to the intake. I was thinking I could just cap it off and run the dry sump vent separate.

[Hindsight]

Nice work Bob!

[walt555]

Hi Gator,
My Aviaid parts will be here Monday except for the tank.

I understood that the Aeromotive and all the vacuum reliefs/regulators I found a auto parts sources wouldn't work because there is no way to put a fitting on the air intake side.
The only thing I can fine is the industrial (heavy) types.
Maybe I'm over engineering this and should just go with something like this with a KN filter hat.

http://www.gzmotorsports.com/VCV101A...rol-Valve.html
Bob

Bob,
Do we need the intake connection? I would think the intake should be divorced from the DS system.

[Wayne Presley]

Bob,
Do we need the intake connection? I would think the intake should be divorced from the DS system.

Agree

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Do we need the connection to the intake. I was thinking I could just cap it off and run the dry sump vent separate.

Bob,
Do we need the intake connection? I would think the intake should be divorced from the DS system.

walt555,
I am finding there are a lot of opinions on how to vent or seal the engine.
Is soon as I think I got it figured out. A person that I trust tells me something different.

So only take this information as my opinion.
1. With a dry sump, I agree that intake and crankcase should not connect.
2. I do not agree with totally sealing up the motor. I think this would restrict the flow of the scavenge lines.
3. if a vacuum regulator is used to let air into the crankcase, it must be set lower than the pumps will pull.
4. I feel that the all crankcase gases (blow by) should exit out the top of the dry sump tank.
Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

Whether you run a closed system or an open one there is no need for an intake connection. Part of the beauty of a DS is not having any connections to the intake that can dump oil into it. For my new build I'm mocking up the intake with a 3" aluminun tube, no perforations into it at all.

20160925_173025.jpg

If you want to run an open system just run a hose from the former PCV opening in the block to the DS Tank. If you want to run closed, seal it up. If you want to run closed but with a regulator put a vacuum regulator on the PVC block connection or on the former oil fill hole.

[RetroRacing]

Here is our set up, after we removed the engine for the pump seal leak!
IMG_1417.JPGIMG_1403.JPGIMG_1402.JPG

We preset the vacuum valve at 20hg on the bench, I will test it the next time we start her up tonight hopefully. It takes 2.5 hours to remove an engine and another 2.5 to put it back in.

WE also have to fix a leak in the tank, seems the v-band doesn't want to seal.

[RetroRacing]

IMG_1401.JPGIMG_1388.JPGIMG_1387.JPGIMG_1386.JPG

[Hindsight]

Clean!

[FFRSpec72]

Here is our set up, after we removed the engine for the pump seal leak!
IMG_1417.JPGIMG_1403.JPGIMG_1402.JPG

We preset the vacuum valve at 20hg on the bench, I will test it the next time we start her up tonight hopefully. It takes 2.5 hours to remove an engine and another 2.5 to put it back in.

WE also have to fix a leak in the tank, seems the v-band doesn't want to seal.

So the dry sump pump had a bad seal ? What kind of hoses did you use (brand/make) ?

[RetroRacing]

No, the Cosworth oil pump we put in has a bad lip seal we think, as the front of the pump is wet.

We are using the Earl's Performance Ultra-Flex 650 Hose ($40 per foot) but way easier to make up and super light and flexable. You can use the standard fittings with it, just don't feel you have to bury the fitting on the dash 12, no pressure and it gets really tight!

The tank leaks at the seam, even with the vband clamp full tight, so I fixxy tonight.

[Scargo]

When you put the pump on did you apply sealant to the three bolts on the left side (per the FSM)?

[DanielsDM]

Here is our set up, after we removed the engine for the pump seal leak!
IMG_1417.JPGIMG_1403.JPGIMG_1402.JPG

We preset the vacuum valve at 20hg on the bench, I will test it the next time we start her up tonight hopefully. It takes 2.5 hours to remove an engine and another 2.5 to put it back in.

WE also have to fix a leak in the tank, seems the v-band doesn't want to seal.

Looks good! In my experience the v-band DS tanks can be difficult to seal. DO NOT overtighten the clamp or you can deform the thin wall large diameter tank and it will never seal.
What headers are you running? From the picture it looks like they are above the bottom of the main frame but slightly below the rear sub-frame? is that correct?

[RetroRacing]

first of all, I am an idiot and Gator a god. We set the vacuum valve off the engine, but it was new, probably needed to be cycled, blah blah, short story, it was set at 25hg.....so that sucked the seal in on the oil pump. It was also sluggish in reving and has fluctuating oil pressure (high and good, but up and down).
Pulled the pump, seal is fine but put our 11mm in just in case. the valve is now set at 12hg and the engine is supper happy!!

That is a Perrin EL header, it sits about 3/4" below the main frame and is double wrapped (each tube and both together). Sealed the tank last night, the tank was not sitting squarely on the seal.

Now, if the weather will play nice, we will go and test this weekend (Friday and Sunday) at the ridge.

[Sgt.Gator]

I think Retro has conclusively proven that the internet wisdom that you must run 4 scavenge stages to get a vacuum in a Subaru engine is total BS. Even a 2 stage system can suck the seals in!
That's probably the reason Chad had issues when he tried to run a closed system. He didn't have a vacuum gauge hooked up and the Element kit doesn't come with a relief regulator. So he had the fluctuating oil pressures like you, and probably was close to damaging his seals too. In my case my gauge never showed more than 12inches of vacuum so it wasn't a problem.

But now that we've disproven that theory it's obvious to me that every DS needs at least a vacuum gauge in the driver compartment as a minimum, and should include a relief valve for safety. I guess those engineers at Cosworth actually knew what they were doing!

I'm glad you caught it before you arrived at the track for a test day. If you can hook up a pressure transducer to your data logger it might be helpful diagnosing engine problems. I found some really cheap ones on Amazon and some more expensive ones at Ashcroft. I'm going to hook up one of the cheap ones to my logger and run it a 2 hz which shouldn't take up much memory, along with a gauge I can glance at.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/...A37WKN555BCG91

[FFRSpec72]

OK, I'm stupid here, what do I need to do when hooking up the Element dry sump ? Do I need to get a relief regulator? If so which one ? Anything else I need to do. I know that Gator wants me to also take off the Killer-B oil control valve and the oil separator.

[RetroRacing]

Depends on what you want, vacuum in the block or not. Oil control is covered by either depending on what you want to do. Hear are your two options:
1. No vacuum in the block= hook all of your vent lines together to make one big vent ling (two from heads, one from block) and then run them to the "vent in" on the top of the dry sump tank. Put a breather filter on the "vent out" side of the tank.
2. Vacuum in the block= Hook all of your vent lines together with a T to equalize the pressure in the heads and block. That seals the block and heads together. Then, make a flat plate out of 1/4" aluminum drilled to fit where the oil filler tube was (we actually cut the filler tube off to keep the o-ring and mount for the filler tube, it works as a spacer now). order a http://www.jegs.com/p/Peterson-Fluid...77011/10002/-1, then drill and tap, or weld in a bung, to fit it.

now, set ours up like morons, which kinda worked out for us to set the thing on the bench. We first adapted the thing down to a male 1/2" NPT (not cheap, but fun) and drilled/tapped our 1/4" plate as a mount. That allowed us to take it off the engine, screw on a nipple to the 1/2" npt male fitting and set the vacuum with a pump and guage, then screw it back onto the engine. Setting at the wrong vacuum level sucked (literally) but it was an easy fix.

Hope this helps, I'm sure Gator will probably explain it better.

Jeff

[Sgt.Gator]

Tony, what Jeff said above, or option #3

3. Vacuum in block = Fab a flat plate of aluminum or steel and drill holes to bolt over the oil fill hole in the driver head. You can seal it with Fujibond/Right Stuff. I think there's a pic of what I did many pages back, but it's very simple.



Leave the OEM balance bar from the rear head vents to the balance bar block port alone. Then tee the two front vents on the heads together. Off the tee run a line to the former PCV fitting on the block (back of block). Now your block is all sealed up. Somewhere in that line from the front vent tee to the PCV port use the Aeromotive relief fitting mentioned in above post 487. Simple. The Aeromotive even has a 1/8" NPT port for a gauge or a transducer.
https://www.aeromotiveinc.com/produc...ump-regulator/



Aeromotive Vacuum Pump Regulator Instructions:
http://aeromotiveinc.com/wp-content/...107-0NoRev.pdf

[FFRSpec72]

Tony, what Jeff said above, or option #3

3. Vacuum in block = Fab a flat plate of aluminum or steel and drill holes to bolt over the oil fill hole in the driver head. You can seal it with Fujibond/Right Stuff. I think there's a pic of what I did many pages back, but it's very simple.

I hope I could just use Michie3 oil filler tube cap that I already have http://zerodecibelmotorsports.com/pr...-tube-and-cap/ since it is aluminum and has a threaded cap, should provide a good seal