Oil issues: Dry Sump, Accusump for road racing?

[Sgt.Gator]

I hope I could just use Michie3 oil filler tube cap that I already have http://zerodecibelmotorsports.com/pr...-tube-and-cap/ since it is aluminum and has a threaded cap, should provide a good seal

That should work. Or get Mechie to thread the tube so you can screw the Peterson Regulator right into it.

Peterson Vacuum Regulator.jpg

[RetroRacing]

Damn, that will be perfect!

[Mechie3]

What's the thread on the peterson piece?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

What's the thread on the peterson piece?

It is a -12AN thread. That thread is 1 1/16" with a pitch of 12
http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/engine_breath.html

[Sgt.Gator]

It is a -12AN thread.
http://www.petersonfluidsys.com/engine_breath.html

Here's the Cosworth version:

Cosworth Peterson egulator adaptor.jpg

[Mechie3]

Looks to be an O-ring Boss type fitting? Anyone know the size o-ring? Wish standards for these types of things were more readily available (or free). Technically the o-ring doesn't need a counterbore to sit in, but I really don't like o-ring's not constrained on the OD.

[Sgt.Gator]

Looks to be an O-ring Boss type fitting? Anyone know the size o-ring? Wish standards for these types of things were more readily available (or free). Technically the o-ring doesn't need a counterbore to sit in, but I really don't like o-ring's not constrained on the OD.

I have the info, I'll post it up this afternoon.

[FFRSpec72]

Looks to be an O-ring Boss type fitting? Anyone know the size o-ring? Wish standards for these types of things were more readily available (or free). Technically the o-ring doesn't need a counterbore to sit in, but I really don't like o-ring's not constrained on the OD.

So were you thinking of offering a new oil fill tube that is threaded for the regulator or offering a new cap with threads for regulator for existing folks that have your oil fill tube ?

[Mechie3]

I would look at making at least a one off of a new tube. A new cap means you have three leak paths vs just two if it hooks straight into the tube.

[DSR-3]

Wish standards for these types of things were more readily available (or free). Technically the o-ring doesn't need a counterbore to sit in, but I really don't like o-ring's not constrained on the OD.

Lot's of info here;
Parker O-Ring Handbook
And the always helpful McMaster Carr has good info and selection of O-rings (and almost everything else in this world!).

[Mechie3]

Lot's of info here;
Parker O-Ring Handbook
And the always helpful McMaster Carr has good info and selection of O-rings (and almost everything else in this world!).

I've used the parker oring handbook a lot, just never for ORB. Didn't realize they were in there. Thanks.

I did finally find that the AN standard is essentially just the SAE J514 and found some dimensions here for ORB's:
http://www.cpvmfg.com/technical-reso...boss-sae-j514/

Interesting that the SAE J514 shows a spot face (dimension F) and parker (MS33649) does not for the o-ring to sit on. The hardest part of finding these is knowing the standard number and getting lucky enough to have it come up in a search for 12AN. Once you find that number you can often find the standard (for free) but if you can't....good luck!

Also found a terrible copy of MS33656 which gives dimensions for the male AN fittings if you wanted to make your own:
http://everyspec.com/MS-Specs/MS3/MS...S33656J_13785/

[Sgt.Gator]

There is a very small counterbore in the top of the Cosworth adaptor. The O-ring on the regulator is SAE dash 912 aka Parker 3-912. It's also the same ring that goes on the -12AN ORB fittings on the pump and the pan. I upgraded mine with Viton -912.

[FFRSpec72]

There is a very small counterbore in the top of the Cosworth adaptor. The O-ring on the regulator is SAE dash 912 aka Parker 3-912. It's also the same ring that goes on the -12AN ORB fittings on the pump and the pan. I upgraded mine with Viton -912.

You are all a bunch of geeks !

[Sgt.Gator]

You are all a bunch of geeks !

I only know this because when Element Tuning sent my kit they forgot to include the O-Ring for the -12AN ORB fitting that screws into the ARE pan so I had to figure this all out a year ago. I have a package of Viton 912 O-Rings if anybody needs one!

[Zach34]

Interesting that the SAE J514 shows a spot face (dimension F) and parker (MS33649) does not for the o-ring to sit on. The hardest part of finding these is knowing the standard number and getting lucky enough to have it come up in a search for 12AN. Once you find that number you can often find the standard (for free) but if you can't....good luck!

Thanks for the links!

I may be wrong, but I didn't think the o-ring sits on the spot-face. I thought the spot-face was simply to ensure the male fitting bottoms there to guarantee that the o-ring plunges a specific distance into the compound chamfer section. Why else would it specify in zoomed-in detail the precise dimensions of the chamfer?

[Mechie3]

Don't know. My only experience with ORB's is hooking up some fuel rails that I didn't make.

It doesn't look like I'll be able to make an oil port fitting myself. We don't have the right sized tap in my building. Having a friend checking the other building for me. Taps are $60. We also don't have internal threading inserts to make it on the CNC. I can still make a CAD model and have it quoted at a shop if people are interested.

[Sgt.Gator]

Don't know. My only experience with ORB's is hooking up some fuel rails that I didn't make.

It doesn't look like I'll be able to make an oil port fitting myself. We don't have the right sized tap in my building. Having a friend checking the other building for me. Taps are $60. We also don't have internal threading inserts to make it on the CNC. I can still make a CAD model and have it quoted at a shop if people are interested.

I was already working on one for my kit to be available in the spring. The first quote I got back was $95 each. I'm trying to find a better cost now.

[FFRSpec72]

I was already working on one for my kit to be available in the spring. The first quote I got back was $95 each. I'm trying to find a better cost now.

Need it sooner than spring !!!!

Craig, I can pay for the tap if that helps

[Sgt.Gator]

Need it sooner than spring !!!!

Craig, I can pay for the tap if that helps

Tony I'll loan you my Cosworth fitting until I can make my own version. I can get it shipped tomorrow. I want it back though! PM me your address.

[RetroRacing]

We just used an O ring style female to dash 10 male, then tapped our cover to 12" npt and screwed in a male dash 10. Now, it comes off with a dash 10 wrench for adjustment. easypeasy lemon squeezy

[Mechie3]

We just used an O ring style female to dash 10 male, then tapped our cover to 12" npt and screwed in a male dash 10. Now, it comes off with a dash 10 wrench for adjustment. easypeasy lemon squeezy

Isn't that mixing straight threads with tapered threads?

[FFRSpec72]

Just verifying, I was told by Element Tuning that I need to remove the Killer-B baffle and Killer-B oil pickup ?

[Wayne Presley]

Just verifying, I was told by Element Tuning that I need to remove the Killer-B baffle and Killer-B oil pickup ?

That is correct

[Sgt.Gator]

I got a surprise tonight. I'm re-building my 2005 STI which I know is the correct year for the A/C bracket we use for the Aviaid plate to work right. I got the bracket bolted to the block and when I went to install the Aviaid mount plate discovered only three mounting holes!

20160929_222036.jpg

Apparently because it's a race car some previous owner had removed the A/C in the race conversion and decided that top mount hole wasn't doing anything and it's in the way, so he cut it off.

A new OEM one costs $195! I've got my recycle/wrecker guy looking for one at a more reasonable cost.

[Zach34]

Crappy luck.... Would be a good opportunity to practice some cast aluminum welding, if you're into that kind of thing

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I got a surprise tonight. I'm re-building my 2005 STI which I know is the correct year for the A/C bracket we use for the Aviaid plate to work right. I got the bracket bolted to the block and when I went to install the Aviaid mount plate discovered only three mounting holes!

20160929_222036.jpg

Apparently because it's a race car some previous owner had removed the A/C in the race conversion and decided that top mount hole wasn't doing anything and it's in the way, so he cut it off.

A new OEM one costs $195! I've got my recycle/wrecker guy looking for one at a more reasonable cost.

My 04 & 05 foresters donors have a totally wrong ac bracket. I had one off a 06 NA impreza that fit perfect.
Bob

[Zach34]

Are the block castings the same in that area across engine model/years? In other words, can you bolt on a 2005 sti compressor bracket to any year 2.5 (or 2.0 for that matter) block?

[Wayne Presley]

Are the block castings the same in that area across engine model/years? In other words, can you bolt on a 2005 sti compressor bracket to any year 2.5 (or 2.0 for that matter) block?

Yes you can

[biknman]

Howdy yawl,

Avid 3 stage worked great for me for almost five years just had pump overhaul by Aviaid! Unfortunately can't use it due to NO Dry Sump allowed in class I want to hill climb my 818 (when built) in. :-(

May put my set up for sale also have a bunch of -12AN new fittings/hose as I was going to move the tank from the firewall to the middle of the car. :-0

Note I ran my block's/head's CCV closed loop, with a breather tank off the dry dump tank, used a Peterson vacuum control valve on one of the CCV's, pumped oil straight into where oil filter screws in, and scavenged from 2 -12an fittings welded into custom made pan. Never had any a rod bearing issues, excessive oil burn, and seals never leaked, regularly data-logged up to 2g's Lat. :-) Hardest part for me was sourcing the very unique die (from the UK) to make a custom Crank shaft bolt that was long enough to be able to bolt the pulleys on an mandrel to the crank, needed to align the pump and alternator (no power steering using EPAS) correctly.



Video
https://youtu.be/Zf_eXAQ1x0M

TNX
Dave

[Scargo]

Dave, I've always appreciated your creativity. Is that Aviaid three-stage pump all suck or is one an oil pump?
Did you see my latest for my STi? They should be finished dynoing it by tomorrow. This has an external Peterson pressure relief valve/KB pan. Might be worth combining with dry sump. Am still enamored with the Dailey system. Seeing yours I might be swayed. How did you drive the alternator?

[biknman]

Just used a Moroso Alternator Pulley 23556 on the ALT and on the crank mandrel and a HTD Alternator Pulley 40-Tooth P/N 23558. If your interested PM before I post it all for sale. Here is a video I did tonight:
https://youtu.be/Kz_AWph-X4Q

[biknman]

Here is a pic I took tonight after removing the pump it's bracket, the alternator bracket and pulley, belts, crank mandrel with alternator and pump pulleys, and the sump pan from the block.


Lastly couple more things to note on what I found doing a custom 3stage (2suck1pressure)dry sump system on my Scooby race car. It takes a very custom hard to find die for making a custom crank shaft bolts so you can get the spacing of the HTD or Glimmer pulley on a mandrel to fit your needs to align the belt properly. It took me almost a year and got it form a guy in middle nowhere UK. I can dig it out and let yawl know the size of your interested before I sale it with my other stuff. Be mindful of the suction side hoses as the pump can suck hard enough to pinch the hoses off. And because it's a boxer it can be a pain to keep the hoses from header heat. Note this has a pressure stage so you don't need the stock pump to work so gut the out gear out of the stock pump but leave the rest of the oil pump housing as it needs the be there for the crank seal and the timing belt drive pulley spacing. Also depending on where you chose to pump the oil into the block determines oil filter and pressure regulation. Via the original pickup point through the fitting on the pan allows you to use stock oil filter and the pressure regulator (by pass rather) in stock oil pump housing. Via the special -12an to 20mmx1.5 fitting in the oil filter feed galley will require the pressure by-pass Spring (rear of pump) be set and checked and the use of an inline oil filter like I did.
Happy dry sumping y'all ;-)
Dave

[DanielsDM]

What was special about the bolt? Is it not a standard thread?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

biknman
Nice pile of parts. I have a expensive pile just like it. Like everything else on the 818, it takes some creative engineering to make things fit.
I'm working on my sump pan tonight. My current exhaust is OEM un-egual length, but I also have a cheap equal length exhaust. Finding a solution that is acceptable to me is not going well.
Bob
uepan.jpg uepan2.jpg

[biknman]

What was special about the bolt? Is it not a standard thread?

Yup not standard by any means. Need to stop by the shop and verify but from memory it's been six years ago the bolt measured physically 12.8 mm x thread pitch 1.5 mm with the tap size at M13x1.5. Easy to find taps not dies and the only "bolts" are for use as drain plugs nothing in a 6-8" long grande 8 bolt :-(

[biknman]

biknman
Nice pile of parts. I have a expensive pile just like it. Like everything else on the 818, it takes some creative engineering to make things fit.
I'm working on my sump pan tonight. My current exhaust is OEM un-egual length, but I also have a cheap equal length exhaust. Finding a solution that is acceptable to me is not going well.
Bob
uepan.jpg uepan2.jpg

Looks good! Yup with all the different type and ways to run a the various intake manifolds, fuel rail set ups, AVCS / TGVs or not, etc etc each 3 stage setup is unique unless you go with one of those $4k setups. The headers are a reason I made my own. I prefer the thicker Sc40 Stainless for headers any-who just seems to work better for me and not common or super expensive already made, But I also have the tools and sources to do it cheap so. Them there billet or forged dry sump pans are rather expensive so I fabricated my own dry sump pan using the OEM pan's mounting flange and some -12an steel Male fittings. This way I can also still run say a Killer B or Moroso 6qt wet sump pan with my headers or the dry sump pan. :-) Them billet sumps are mighty pretty though!

[Scargo]

... Them billet sumps are mighty pretty though!

I'm very surprised that those making these pretty parts can't think outside the box when working from a clean sheet, a block of aluminum and a five axis machining center. Designs could be more fluid, eliminate and/or simplify fittings and direct the inlets/outlets away from header interference points...
My goal was to work with a Dailey system and build an exhaust much like you have tacked together that puts the turbo in front and exhausting out the side. If it's a race car, I see the fuel cell being where most have gone >> in the passenger seat area.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

On our dry sump pan, I decided that some of the braided lines were to close to the headers for my liking.
I'm afraid that even with fire wrap sleeving, that the rubber hose might melt. So I decided to go with flared hard lines.

Should I use aluminum , copper, steel or stainless steel?
What is a good bender for 5/8 OD and 3/4 OD tubing you selected above?
Thanks for your help in advance.
Bob

[C.Plavan]

On our dry sump pan, I decided that some of the braided lines were to close to the headers for my liking.
I'm afraid that even with fire wrap sleeving, that the rubber hose might melt. So I decided to go with flared hard lines.

Should I use aluminum , copper, steel or stainless steel?
What is a good bender for 5/8 OD and 3/4 OD tubing you selected above?
Thanks for your help in advance.
Bob

I was worried also- I just used fire braid wrap (doubled up in close areas) then used the OEM Header Heatshields (on OEM headers of course- since they did not sit below frame like other headers). Everything was good. I even checked an oil line when I was replacing the oil pump to see if it was heat damaged (cut into it). It was all good, no issues.

[Zach34]

On our dry sump pan, I decided that some of the braided lines were to close to the headers for my liking.
I'm afraid that even with fire wrap sleeving, that the rubber hose might melt. So I decided to go with flared hard lines.

Should I use aluminum , copper, steel or stainless steel?
What is a good bender for 5/8 OD and 3/4 OD tubing you selected above?
Thanks for your help in advance.
Bob

I used this bender to make my own 5/8" aluminum crossover vent tube to replace the rusty stock one. I'll post pictures later.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It has a pretty tight 2 1/4" bend radius and worked well on some annealed aluminum tube from Summit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G2558

I'd be surprised if it worked well on stainless tube. Stainless is so much more difficult to bend. I have no plans to make anything out of 5/8" stainless tube with it, but if someone has some scrap they'd like to send me, I'd be happy to try bending it and report back. Ridgid makes a ratcheting bender for 5/8" with a 3" radius of bend - might work better.

The problem you'll run into with the hardlines is you will never get close to the bend radius you can get out of a 90-degree hose fitting. You have to have the tube sleeve pre-installed on the tube before you bend it (otherwise the sleeve will not slide through the bend), which means you have to flare it before you bend it. So you end up with about a 1.5" straight section after your flare before the bend starts. The bend radius of those hose fittings is probably less than 1 inch. It might work for you - just a consideration to keep in mind.

Another issue is while the bender makes a smooth bend in the aluminum tubing, it does collapse it slightly in the bend (not as bad as a compression-bent exhaust tube, but not nearly as good as mandrel-bent). I don't know if a slightly collapsed -12 tube would restrict oil flow too much or not. Probably not, but worth thinking about.

The best solution is probably Chad's - sleeving and heat shield.