Oil issues: Dry Sump, Accusump for road racing?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

This is a related article I found on the Spintric.

Reducing Aeration
Oil aeration in dry-sump lubrication systems can lead to lower lubrication efficiency by encouraging cavitation in the oil pump. The level of aeration in the oil is determined by a range of factors, including engine speed, oil type and oil condition, and can be a particular problem in high-revving large-displacement drag race engines. Not only does the high rpm of components such as the crank churn the oil to a greater extent, the oil also flows through the lubrication system faster. This means it has less time to rest in the sump or the oil tank, where air bubbles would naturally separate out.
Aeration caused by the rotating assemblies within the engine is not the only problem; it is also contributed to by the pump mechanism in dry-sump systems. Here the aeration occurs at the scavenge stage of the pump. The oil sucked into the pump is more of an air-oil foam, and as the oil is pulled between the pump's gars it is further aerated, which is why oil tank design is of utmost importance for maintaining oil condition.
However, a new device developed by California-based Armstrong Race Engines (ARE) claims to help reduce this problem considerably. A bolt-on fitment to existing lubrication systems, the device is called the Spintric, and it relies on internal channels to 'spin' the oil and encourage air bubbles to separate. The device fits on the return line to the oil tank, and the aerated scavenged oil is forced through it, with separated air being channeled through one outlet and oil to the oil tank through another.
Spintric has no moving parts, and Gary Armstrong, the inventor of the device and owner of ARE, claims that it separates between 30 and 70% of the air from the oil, depending on engine revs. Ultimately this means there is less air entering the oil tank, allowing the internal features of the tank to better remove the remaining oil.

- Lawrence Butcher, DRAG race technology special report

[Sgt.Gator]

Did you look down into the oil tank after you ran it? I bet you will see lots of bubbles/foam, like I did.

No I didn't. That thing is dang HOT!

[Sgt.Gator]

This is a related article I found on the Spintric.

Reducing Aeration
Oil aeration in dry-sump lubrication systems can lead to lower lubrication efficiency by encouraging cavitation in the oil pump. The level of aeration in the oil is determined by a range of factors, including engine speed, oil type and oil condition, and can be a particular problem in high-revving large-displacement drag race engines. Not only does the high rpm of components such as the crank churn the oil to a greater extent, the oil also flows through the lubrication system faster. This means it has less time to rest in the sump or the oil tank, where air bubbles would naturally separate out.
Aeration caused by the rotating assemblies within the engine is not the only problem; it is also contributed to by the pump mechanism in dry-sump systems. Here the aeration occurs at the scavenge stage of the pump. The oil sucked into the pump is more of an air-oil foam, and as the oil is pulled between the pump's gars it is further aerated, which is why oil tank design is of utmost importance for maintaining oil condition.
However, a new device developed by California-based Armstrong Race Engines (ARE) claims to help reduce this problem considerably. A bolt-on fitment to existing lubrication systems, the device is called the Spintric, and it relies on internal channels to 'spin' the oil and encourage air bubbles to separate. The device fits on the return line to the oil tank, and the aerated scavenged oil is forced through it, with separated air being channeled through one outlet and oil to the oil tank through another.
Spintric has no moving parts, and Gary Armstrong, the inventor of the device and owner of ARE, claims that it separates between 30 and 70% of the air from the oil, depending on engine revs. Ultimately this means there is less air entering the oil tank, allowing the internal features of the tank to better remove the remaining oil.

- Lawrence Butcher, DRAG race technology special report

Yep. I'm hoping the $80 underdrive will work without the $800 Spintric!

[C.Plavan]

No I didn't. That thing is dang HOT!

I know. I had to grab a towel to unscrew cap. I had to let go after every turn because it was still hot with the towel.

It looks like I will be able to test the car out with the Spintric installed at Buttonwillow on Aug 21st. CW#13 config. My favorite. I'll see if I can beat 1:54's, I may even throw my A7's on for a session if everything goes right.

[Sgt.Gator]

I know. I had to grab a towel to unscrew cap. I had to let go after every turn because it was still hot with the towel.

It looks like I will be able to test the car out with the Spintric installed at Buttonwillow again Aug 21st.

I hope to be doing Garage Test II by Monday, latest Tuesday.

John from Aviaid has 5" and 5.5" pump pulleys in stock, and the 6" in 3 weeks. I recalculated the numbers and realize I need not only an underdrive crank but probably his 5.5" pulley, or the 6".

The problem is I'm guessing on the underdrive size right now because I don't have one in my hand to measure. They say it's a 25% reduction in crank speed for the P/S, Alt, A/C, but until I measure it I won't know for sure.

The numbers:

5.5" Crank + 4" Pulley = Pump at 137% of crank speed. This is our current setups.

Assuming a 25% reduction in crank size = 4.125" crank pulley which results:

4.125 crank + 4" pulley = 103% pump to crank rpm

4.125 crank + 5" pulley = 82%

4.125 crank + 5.5" pulley = 72%

4.125 crank + 6" pulley = 66.6%

So at 7,000 rpm with the underdrive crank and 5.5" pump pulley, the pump will be spinning at 5040 rpm.

Of course this is all theory now and may be a waste of time and a little $.

Chad, we are going to beat this problem. I want to build an 818R next year and race you at Thunderhill!

My long term plan is to use the wagon for 2 hour plus Enduros and possibly the 25hours of Thunderhill, and use the 818R for sprint races.

[Mitch Wright]

A little more info to noodle.
https://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/3733/oil-aeration
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=82329 This brings up running -10 over -12 on smaller displacement engines. One Small Block Chevy builder played with hose sized from -8 to -12 running clear hose and a window in the pan to see what was going on.

[killerbmotorsport]

Hi Guys, I've been contacted by a few 818 guys over the last couple weeks and one pointed me in the direction of a couple threads over here. There's LOTS of posts already and I didn't want to spend lots of time addressing concerns that may have already been addressed.

For those that are not familiar with us, we specialize in Subaru EJ engine oiling (wet or dry), and know a thing or two regarding EJ PCV systems. We do have our own line of engineered performance oiling products, but like everyone else here, I'm a car guy too. I'll do my best to point you in the right direction whether it means swapping OEM parts, home made, other brands, or our own. My only dog in this fight is to make sure your EJ engine's life blood supply is maintained and doing its job.

So if anyone has any question, concerns or otherwise, please feel free to post and I will do my best to address them, in regards to the 818 applications.

[Sgt.Gator]

As an experiment to rule in or out one more variable I "sealed" my motor and re-ran Garage Test I. By sealing I mean that I blocked off the crankcase and cam cover vents that would normally be teed together and back to the dry sump tank. So when I ran the test all the vents were blocked. I figured it was safe to run the test because with no load, no turbo boost, there would be no turbo induced blow-by pressure in the crankcase to worry about blowing out seals if the scavenge wasn't able to keep up.
The biggest difference I noticed was the rushing river sound into the tank was MUCH quieter, which I attribute to a lot less air being sucked into the engine.
However it did not ultimately effect the oil temp problem, the temps still rose almost the exact same as the did in the garage I test graph.

One other update: The 5.5" pulley wheel has a 1" bore, so it requires a special bushing to make it work on a 5/8" pump. The total cost is $180. Yikes. I decided to wait and see if the under-drive crank pulley makes a difference, and if it does but not quite enough, I'll spring for a 5.5 or 6" pulley.

[killerbmotorsport]

Are you running any engine vents or a vacuum regulator?

Sorry if this has already been covered... How many stages and whos pump?

[Mitch Wright]

KB,
Both Chad and Sgt Gator are using the 2 stage System from Element Tuning and I believe one other builder that is close to finished also Phil's System.

[C.Plavan]

I installed the Spintric. Too bad I have to wait a couple weeks to test it out.

[Mitch Wright]

Should be able to warm it up take off the filler cap and with a flash light watch the oil going back into the tank at 5K with and with out the Spintric.

[Sgt.Gator]

Look what's arrived:





Stock - 5.56 LBS

Kartboy - 2.36 LBS

GrimmSpeed - 2.02 LBS

Cobb - 1.24 LBS

Perrin - 1.2 LBS

OBX- 1.0 lbs and 4 5/16" diameter.

Eureka, normal oil pressure readings, no goofy spiking! I am so happy to have good oil pressure readings again!

Tonight I'll get the crank pulley on and measure for new belt. Hopefully I can find a belt locally tomorrow and Garage Test III will commence.

I'm also doing a CAD design for a new pump pulley and have a local shop cnc what I want.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I'm also doing a CAD design for a new pump pulley and have a local shop cnc what I want.

Gator,
Get a quantity price on the pulleys, none of us need to be spinning our alternators at 12,000 Rpm's with the greatly reduced electrical loads we have. Does anybody make a low cost lighter racing alternator for a Subaru?
Bob

Edit: Never mind, I thought you were talking about the crank pulley.

Edit#2: I also started my Accusump install. http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post207556

[killerbmotorsport]

Hi Guys, I was directed through to this thread and just wanted to offer any assistance with whatever oiling or PCV issues you may have. For those that have never heard of us, we are a Subaru oiling products specialist, specifically for the turbo EJ engines. Anything any everything in virtually any motor sporting event that a Subaru has been involved, with our products on many podium and world record breaking cars. We've even designed some neat solutions for Suby powered aircraft (aerobatics) in which load is continuous and the sump changes location nearly continuously as well. We do manufacture wet sump and PCV products and have designed many wet sump setups also. We don't sell a wet sump system because we only recommend them for VERY specific applications only; banked circle/oval, and on aircraft that will see inverted flight.

There seems to be lots going on in this thread. I took a very quick skim and I'm sure some of the issues have since been resolved and the only more recent one seems to be oil temperature issues on a dry sump system. Without intimate knowledge of each setup I could only speculate at this point, so if you can answer some questions for me I can offer some input.

It looks like the dry sump systems being used are the Element setups. This is not a 'traditional' dry sump setup, it's more a mutt since it's really just two scavenge stages and maintains the OEM pump/regulator, etc. Going back some years from memory I believe Phil uses Aviad as a supplier for the scavenge pumps. I'm curious what direction Elements tech support has given so far so I'm not covering old ground. Regardless... Dry sump design info that would help troubleshoot issues...

- Are the scavenge outputs T-d together in the pump or lines before the reservoir?
- Are deaerating baffles, a separate deaerator, or swirl pot in use in the reservoir tank or as a separate component?
- Are you using a remove vent can and where is it plumbed into the reservoir?
- PCV/Vents are plumbed into the reservoir correctly?
- OEM PCV balance tubes are plumbed as from the factory?
- What baffle is being used between crank and sump?
- What OEM oil pump is being used, and have any modifications been done (oversized, porting, shimming, etc.)?
- Where are you taking pressure/temp readings from?
- Are you using a vacuum regulator, where is it located and what is it set to?

Probably some more I'm missing but it's early and I'm only on my first cup of coffee.

Like I said before, we don't spec dry sump systems for 99.9998% of applications because it's just no necessary. When we do, it's 5-stages (4-scavenge, 1-pump) on go big or go home setups that cost a LOT, but you set your vacuum, set your pressure and forget it. The OEM STi oil pan is generally OK to about 1.1-1.2 Gs sustained. For most 'donor' cars that see occasional road course (once or twice a year) we don't recommend changing any of the OEM bits. Beyond that, a performance oil pan is necessary to provide reliable oiling. Then once sustained lateral forced climb to the 1.4-1.6Gs range (depending on some variables) PVC issues need to be address as you start flooding the heads with oil and pushing them out the head breathers. The PCV issues can be just as devastating as it reduced the capacity in the oil pan by putting the oil elsewhere. IIRC the smaller dry sump setups compensate for this by running an ungodly amount of oil and just letting the heads flood.

Regarding accusumps, I think they are not useful on these engines. The manufacturers even state they maintain some flow, but not pressure. Plus you have reduce engine oil flow during charging. The EJ engines flow HUGE amounts of oil rivaling racing oil pumps you'd find in a small block V-8. Too many downsides to the accusump (on an EJ anyway), just fix the issue you've got instead of trying to apply a Band-Aid. If you want to prime a freshly installed turbo before startup, it's a great device!

You guys have a really good platform. The 818 is proving to be a very competent track car even at very modest modification levels. The highest lateral forces I've seen on an 818 is ~1.7Gs sustained. To put that into perspective, this is very similar to what you see from some of the world’s fastest Time-Attack donor cars. I'm really exciting to see performance levels be pushed as the platform seems to show a lot of potential.

I see your pulley. We use/recommend damper pulleys on engines we build for street and road coarse. If the engine is going to be torn down ever 40 hours or for drag application, a lightened pulley is fine. Do I have any hard data to support failures or anything to that extent, evidence of excessive wear on the end bearings vs center mains, etc.? No. This is just info I'm passing a long from the crank manufacturers I speak with, and no they don't sell the dampers.

BTW I think I met Sgt.Gator at Big NW Subaru meet last year?

[Sgt.Gator]

Gator,
Get a quantity price on the pulleys, none of us need to be spinning our alternators at 12,000 Rpm's with the greatly reduced electrical loads we have. Does anybody make a low cost lighter racing alternator for a Subaru?
Bob

Edit: Never mind, I thought you were talking about the crank pulley.

Edit#2: I also started my Accusump install. http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post207556

Hi Bob,
The OBX underdrive crank pulley is $80 on Amazon. I've seen overdrive alt and P/S pulleys, I'd have to search for them. But it's easier to just change the crank pulley which slows down everything.

[Sgt.Gator]

Hi Guys, I was directed through to this thread and just wanted to offer any assistance with whatever oiling or PCV issues you may have. For those that have never heard of us, we are a Subaru oiling products specialist, specifically for the turbo EJ engines. Anything any everything in virtually any motor sporting event that a Subaru has been involved, with our products on many podium and world record breaking cars. We've even designed some neat solutions for Suby powered aircraft (aerobatics) in which load is continuous and the sump changes location nearly continuously as well. We do manufacture wet sump and PCV products and have designed many wet sump setups also. We don't sell a wet sump system because we only recommend them for VERY specific applications only; banked circle/oval, and on aircraft that will see inverted flight.

There seems to be lots going on in this thread. I took a very quick skim and I'm sure some of the issues have since been resolved and the only more recent one seems to be oil temperature issues on a dry sump system. Without intimate knowledge of each setup I could only speculate at this point, so if you can answer some questions for me I can offer some input.

It looks like the dry sump systems being used are the Element setups. This is not a 'traditional' dry sump setup, it's more a mutt since it's really just two scavenge stages and maintains the OEM pump/regulator, etc. Going back some years from memory I believe Phil uses Aviad as a supplier for the scavenge pumps. I'm curious what direction Elements tech support has given so far so I'm not covering old ground. Regardless... Dry sump design info that would help troubleshoot issues...

- Are the scavenge outputs T-d together in the pump or lines before the reservoir?
- Are deaerating baffles, a separate deaerator, or swirl pot in use in the reservoir tank or as a separate component?
- Are you using a remove vent can and where is it plumbed into the reservoir?
- PCV/Vents are plumbed into the reservoir correctly?
- OEM PCV balance tubes are plumbed as from the factory?
- What baffle is being used between crank and sump?
- What OEM oil pump is being used, and have any modifications been done (oversized, porting, shimming, etc.)?
- Where are you taking pressure/temp readings from?
- Are you using a vacuum regulator, where is it located and what is it set to?

Probably some more I'm missing but it's early and I'm only on my first cup of coffee.

Like I said before, we don't spec dry sump systems for 99.9998% of applications because it's just no necessary. When we do, it's 5-stages (4-scavenge, 1-pump) on go big or go home setups that cost a LOT, but you set your vacuum, set your pressure and forget it. The OEM STi oil pan is generally OK to about 1.1-1.2 Gs sustained. For most 'donor' cars that see occasional road course (once or twice a year) we don't recommend changing any of the OEM bits. Beyond that, a performance oil pan is necessary to provide reliable oiling. Then once sustained lateral forced climb to the 1.4-1.6Gs range (depending on some variables) PVC issues need to be address as you start flooding the heads with oil and pushing them out the head breathers. The PCV issues can be just as devastating as it reduced the capacity in the oil pan by putting the oil elsewhere. IIRC the smaller dry sump setups compensate for this by running an ungodly amount of oil and just letting the heads flood.

Regarding accusumps, I think they are not useful on these engines. The manufacturers even state they maintain some flow, but not pressure. Plus you have reduce engine oil flow during charging. The EJ engines flow HUGE amounts of oil rivaling racing oil pumps you'd find in a small block V-8. Too many downsides to the accusump (on an EJ anyway), just fix the issue you've got instead of trying to apply a Band-Aid. If you want to prime a freshly installed turbo before startup, it's a great device!

You guys have a really good platform. The 818 is proving to be a very competent track car even at very modest modification levels. The highest lateral forces I've seen on an 818 is ~1.7Gs sustained. To put that into perspective, this is very similar to what you see from some of the world’s fastest Time-Attack donor cars. I'm really exciting to see performance levels be pushed as the platform seems to show a lot of potential.

I see your pulley. We use/recommend damper pulleys on engines we build for street and road coarse. If the engine is going to be torn down ever 40 hours or for drag application, a lightened pulley is fine. Do I have any hard data to support failures or anything to that extent, evidence of excessive wear on the end bearings vs center mains, etc.? No. This is just info I'm passing a long from the crank manufacturers I speak with, and no they don't sell the dampers.

BTW I think I met Sgt.Gator at Big NW Subaru meet last year?

Hi KB, yes we met at the Big NW Subaru event at PIR. I didn't go this year because of trying to fix these issues.
I appreciate your interest. I will answer your questions and look forward to your input. One thing though, I've read the arguments you and Phil have had on the NASIOC threads, let's not repeat those here. If folks want to dive deep into those they're on NASIOC for anyone to read!

Starting with the pulley, I currently have the Cobb lightened pulley, and there are hundreds, probably thousands, of Subarus with the Cobb and Perrin pulleys with no reported problems. Nor have I heard of issues with any of the other pulleys, although the Cobb and Perrin are closest in weight. The OBX pulley is only .25lb lighter than the Cobb so I'm not concerned. Let's put the lightened pulley discussion aside for now unless you find data to support that they are a problem.

- Are the scavenge outputs T-d together in the pump or lines before the reservoir? The scavenge lines both go into the pump individually. One outlet line goes to the tank. So yes, they are teed internally in the pump.

- Are deaerating baffles, a separate deaerator, or swirl pot in use in the reservoir tank or as a separate component? We are both using the Peterson Dry Sump tank with it's own baffles. Chad has also just installed a Spintric. I've examined the designs of all the dry sump tank manufacturers and think they could be improved upon, but that's a future project.

- Are you using a remove vent can and where is it plumbed into the reservoir? Yes. At the very top of the DS Tank.

- PCV/Vents are plumbed into the reservoir correctly? - OEM PCV balance tubes are plumbed as from the factory? We think so! We each do it slightly differently. We both removed the PCV entirely and both vent from the front cam covers teed together teed to the former PCV vent, which then runs into the DS tank. If the vent lines fill with oil they dump into the DS tank. Chad also tied in the rear cam cover vents. I left my OEM balance system in place and only tied the front cam cover vents. I've also run a test with the engine entirely sealed, no venting. It didn't change the results on the oil temps.

- What baffle is being used between crank and sump? None, I don't think it's possible with the ARE pan.

- What OEM oil pump is being used, and have any modifications been done (oversized, porting, shimming, etc.)? We both started with the 11mm. I changed to the 10MM, it didn't make any difference. Both OEM out of the box. We read your posts on the Pump Size thread on NASIOC, cited them in this thread, very useful info! That's why I tried switching to the 10MM.

- Where are you taking pressure/temp readings from? My pressure is from the "stock" port on the front of the block below the alternator. My sender unit was bad, I just replaced it last night. My oil temp is on the return line between the DS tank and the inlet on the bottom of the engine, inside the passenger compartment, isolated from exhaust and turbo heat. My water temps are from two sources, the oem unit feeding the Cobb Accessport/ and ECU, and a separate AIM sender feeding the MXL display. The oem sender/Accessport displays about 5-10 degree cooler temps than the AIM MXL shows, but they go up and down in sync.

- Are you using a vacuum regulator, where is it located and what is it set to? No.

Thanks again for looking this over.

[killerbmotorsport]

[COLOR="#0000CD"]Hi KB, yes we met at the Big NW Subaru event at PIR. I didn't go this year because of trying to fix these issues.

I thought so. You don't see many LGT wagons on track

[COLOR="#0000CD"]I've read the arguments you and Phil have had on the NASIOC threads, let's not repeat those here. If folks want to dive deep into those they're on NASIOC for anyone to read!

I agree. While Phil and I share very similar passions we also have differences of opinion, and there's nothing wrong with that. If his stuff works for his customers and likewise for me, all is good.

Starting with the pulley, I currently have the Cobb lightened pulley, and there are hundreds, probably thousands, of Subarus with the Cobb and Perrin pulleys with no reported problems. Nor have I heard of issues with any of the other pulleys, although the Cobb and Perrin are closest in weight. The OBX pulley is only .25lb lighter than the Cobb so I'm not concerned. Let's put the lightened pulley discussion aside for now unless you find data to support that they are a problem.

Everything you're saying here is correct and I agree. I only stumbled onto it a few years ago when we were looking into making one ourselves and started poking the crank manufacturers for any info they'd be willing to share on harmonics. Needless to say, we ditched moving forward on that project. It's too bad too, I had a 3-piece pulley with titanium hub, aluminum rim, and carbon fiber between. It would have been very trick.

[COLOR="#0000CD"]
- PCV/Vents are plumbed into the reservoir correctly? - OEM PCV balance tubes are plumbed as from the factory? We think so! We each do it slightly differently. We both removed the PCV entirely and both vent from the front cam covers teed together teed to the former PCV vent, which then runs into the DS tank. If the vent lines fill with oil they dump into the DS tank. Chad also tied in the rear cam cover vents. I left my OEM balance system in place and only tied the front cam cover vents. I've also run a test with the engine entirely sealed, no venting. It didn't change the results on the oil temps.

Better to tee the heads together and run the crankcase vent separately. This mimics OEM and is known to work well. The way you have it might be good (if the lines are upsized), or might be a restriction.

The rear vents should all be tee'd together. There is no reason to vent them, in fact more harm can come from doing that because there are no internal baffles on those ports, only the front ports.

[COLOR="#0000CD"]
- What baffle is being used between crank and sump? None, I don't think it's possible with the ARE pan.

I had to ask. I've seen people do some strange things. If the scavenge is doing it's job, there shouldn't be much oil (if any) to slosh back into the crank. It does fit BTW.

[COLOR="#0000CD"]
- Are you using a vacuum regulator, where is it located and what is it set to? No.

OK. You're very likely not pulling vacuum, or at least not much and only under certain conditions. A 2-stage just doesn't have enough to do it. Someone posted some data on this years ago. It might have been Mick or some one at Cobb, I don't recall exactly.

If you want to be sure you have vacuum under boost plumb a swirl pot A/O separator off your remove vent tank and to your turbo inlet. This will assure you have vacuum under boost always... even more the bigger the turbo you use This is how we plumb and recommend plumbing our wet sump setup. It works very well. Most engines will pull ~2" vacuum under boost.

[Sgt.Gator]

If you want to be sure you have vacuum under boost plumb a swirl pot A/O separator off your remove vent tank and to your turbo inlet. This will assure you have vacuum under boost always... even more the bigger the turbo you use This is how we plumb and recommend plumbing our wet sump setup. It works very well. Most engines will pull ~2" vacuum under boost.

That's sounds interesting. I'd like to see a diagram and pics, and specs on the pieces I would need. I'm having a hard time putting it together in my head.
Thanks
Gator

[Sgt.Gator]

I'm doing the HAPPY DANCE!
Not the 100% knock it out of the ball park dance, but pretty close!

I installed my underdrive and obtained the correct belts. Time for garage test III.



Sweetness! My oil pressures are working normally and they look fine. But most important it took a long time to get hot, with reasonably long runs at 4,000 RPM and again at 5,000 RPM. Even after a 6,000 RPM run it still didn't go over 226 degrees. YES!!!!

The I realized that was with the engine sealed up and the 6,000 RPM runs could be longer, so back again:




0 to 13 minutes: Engine already hot from last test. I opened up the vents as I normally run the car, front vents teed > PCV vent> DS tank. And I stressed the engine more. With the open vents the rise in temperature happens more rapidly. That indicates to me there is air being sucked into the oil faster than with the closed vents, but it's still a lot better with the underdrive than previously.

13 to 16 minutes: I reseal the engine while it's idling. It's easy I just unscrew the line from the vents and cap it.

17:30 to 23: Even starting the next run already at 230 degrees, it still takes 6 mins of revving to 6,000 RPM to reach 250.

25 to 32 minutes: I decide to put a fan blowing on the naca duct oil cooler inlet to sort of mimic low speed air moving thru it.

33 to 43 minutes: Starting at 220 degrees I spend about 4 mins at 4,000 RPM, the oil temps climb just a little. Then 6 mins at 6,000 simulating shifting at 4,000 RPM. at 43 minutes the oil temps hit their high of 253 degrees.

All together I am extremely happy with these results. I could probably hit the track and be fine for 20-30 minute sessions. But I think there is more to gain if I slow the pump down some more, so a friend of mine is creating 5.5" and 6" CAD drawings of the pump pulley which we will metal 3D print, and possibly have cut from a aluminum billet if the 3D metal print is not satisfactory.

I'm betting that Chad's Spintric + an underdrive crank pulley would certainly solve his problems.

Not 100%, but dang close!

[C.Plavan]

Nice charts and work. It is no question anymore, it is oil aeration. You can see when the oil temp goes up, pressure goes down. Bubbles don't cool, and cause pressure drop.

What weight oil you using?

What belts did you have to use with the underdrive pulley? Is there not enough adjustment to use stock belts?

[Sgt.Gator]

Nice charts and work. It is no question anymore, it is oil aeration. You can see when the oil temp goes up, pressure goes down. Bubbles don't cool, and cause pressure drop.

What weight oil you using?

What belts did you have to use with the underdrive pulley? Is there not enough adjustment to use stock belts?

Thanks.
0W-40 Euro Spec Mobil 1.

The belts:

Gates K050330 for the Alternator/Power Steering

Gates K040335 for the Dry Sump Pump.

If I make a 5.5 " pump pulley then the oem A/C belt would probably work since the diameters are almost exactly mirrored. I'll still need the above Alt/P/S belt though.


Maybe I should mount one these next to my DS tank, cheaper than a Spintric!

[C.Plavan]

I don't have PS so I'll figure out that belt.

[killerbmotorsport]

Are those temps under load?

What happens when you remove the OEM fill cap?

And not to sound redundant if it has already been covered, but this is a built engine? Or OEM? Compression numbers are good?

[Sgt.Gator]

Here's the video of the 6K run in the top graph:
https://goo.gl/photos/Zw9mWz1yW6wBfWqJ7

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Here's the video of the 6K run in the top graph:
https://photos.google.com/search/_tr...80nb9tEVT63v57

Could not see the video,
I think we might have to be logged onto your google account to se it.

Great testing, I hope you are correct.
Thanks to you and Chad for the effort that we will all benefit from.
Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

Could not see the video,
I think we might have to be logged onto your google account to se it.

Great testing, I hope you are correct.
Thanks to you and Chad for the effort that we will all benefit from.
Bob

Try again, i got a shareable link.

[Sgt.Gator]

It is no question anymore, it is oil aeration. You can see when the oil temp goes up, pressure goes down. Bubbles don't cool, and cause pressure drop.

Thanks for pointing that out. I think you are right, now that I have decent oil pressure logs you can really see it.

[Zach34]

So is it the OEM pressure pump causing the aeration, or the scavenge system, or both?

[C.Plavan]

So is it the OEM pressure pump causing the aeration, or the scavenge system, or both?

Majority dry sump. He didn't have this problem when he did not have it installed.

[killerbmotorsport]

OK, no load. Those temps are high-ish for no load.

What are you using for an oil cooler? Does it have active cooling?

There is definitely heat being added. Scavenge pumps, or any pump for that matter, adds heat. The upper RPM pressure seems pretty good even as temps climbed. Idle temps were LOW, especially at the RPMs you have idle set to.

I don't think you answered previously, but this engine ins built with enlarged clearances? This would account for the lower idle pressure.

As far as the OEM pump cavitating, the 10mm will not. If you were revving past 9K RPMs I'd recommend porting just for some insurance, but we've seen them go to 10K RPMs without issue. The 11mm is another story. It has problems with high RPM use because the pressure regulating valve can't cope with the extra flow the pump pushes and it aerates the oil up high in the revs. Solvable with porting, but one of the reasons you never use an 11mm pump unless the engine is made for it (dual AVCS, journal bearing turbo, etc.) or had been clearance with oiling modification to actually use the extra flow provided.

Curious what rad and fan setup you're using? I'm not familiar with the rad setup on the 818, but those temps are a couple degrees higher than what you see in the donor cars. Although, I am just recalling you have other sender pickup points, and that could explain it.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

The 11mm is another story. It has problems with high RPM use because the pressure regulating valve can't cope with the extra flow the pump pushes and it aerates the oil up high in the revs. Solvable with porting, but one of the reasons you never use an 11mm pump unless the engine is made for it (dual AVCS, journal bearing turbo, etc.) or had been clearance with oiling modification to actually use the extra flow provided.

I think you might have hit on the root cause. Both Sgt.Gator and Chad are using 11mm pumps.
When you say problems at high RPMs do you mean 6-7k or 9-10k?
Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

KB, It's all in the thread but to recap:
Both Chad and I are using OEM Subaru shortblocks. Mine is new.
Chad has three active and passive oil coolers on his! I have one that is airflow only. It worked great on my wet sump setup, almost too cool.
OEM at 600 rpm idle the specs calls for 14 psi. When mine gets really hot, 230+, they do drop to 8 at idle. I'm going to increase my idle rpm to cure that.
Chad has his on his 818R, mine is on my LGT. So my radiator setup is very different from an 818. It's a Fluidyne radiator with two Spal fans. I really don't need the fans except for tests like this. At the racetrack the only time I've had water temps high enough to turn them on is when waiting in the scales line after a race.
And your question about what happens when the oil filler cap is opened: I have removed the fill tube and dipstick, replacing them with a block off plate. That leaves more room for -12AN lines coming and going to the DS Pump.


Next up is running some tests with a vacuum/boost gauge to see what happens if I leave the engine sealed up; if too much blow-by is not scavenged and creates a positive pressure in the vent tubes. I can't really test that until I get to a track and get the car under load so the turbo will boost. I don't really care if it's creating vacuum, I just want it to keep up with blow-by pressure. If it does I may just leave the system sealed up, effectively running two balance systems, the OEM on the back vents and the 3/4" hoses on the front vents/pcv vent.

[Sgt.Gator]

I think you might have hit on the root cause. Both Sgt.Gator and Chad are using 11mm pumps.
When you say problems at high RPMs do you mean 6-7k or 9-10k?
Bob

Bob, you may not recall but I switched to 10MM a couple of weeks ago. I thought that was the problem. Chad ordered one too but after I posted the data that it didn't fix the problem he has not installed it <yet>.

BTW, Chad, and everyone, I've been making ST tools that we need for these cars. The first run was the axle seal protector and axle seal installer. I discovered that the axle seal installer works just fine for the oil pump seal too. If anyone wants these products please PM me. Right now they are beta test versions so they are not officially for sale, and I am not a registered vendor here. <yet, but soon I hope, if I get some favorable reviews and finalize production versions>.

The ones with a "handle" are for installing the CV axle in the tranny, they protect the seal, in the FSM they are ST 28399SA010. The "cup" is for installing the axle seal in the tranny, ST 18675AA000.
..

The "cup", ST 18675AA000, is not an exact match for the diameter of the oil pump seal, but it's more than close enough and works great.

..

If you Google search for a price on these ST numbers you will be shocked at the prices for such simple tools.


I just found this at Summit Racing. I think it will work. 6" Diameter, 5/8" drive, billet aluminum, keyway. It has a 5 groove pulley, but I can run a 4 groove belt on a 5 groove pulley.
$56.



http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mch-616-09

[killerbmotorsport]

I think you might have hit on the root cause. Both Sgt.Gator and Chad are using 11mm pumps.
When you say problems at high RPMs do you mean 6-7k or 9-10k?
Bob

Above 7K RPMs is where problem can occur when using the 11mm pump.

KB, It's all in the thread but to recap:
Both Chad and I are using OEM Subaru shortblocks. Mine is new.

Can you pull the oil fill block off plate or put the OEM filler neck on there. Is there any smoke coming out?

Chad has three active and passive oil coolers on his! I have one that is airflow only. It worked great on my wet sump setup, almost too cool.

That's a lot of coolers! With a wet sump you typically only need one only under certain conditions; extremely hot ambient temps or significantly higher power levels over OEM. This leads me to believe its in the scavenge setup, and not related to the OEM pump.

OEM at 600 rpm idle the specs calls for 14 psi. When mine gets really hot, 230+, they do drop to 8 at idle. I'm going to increase my idle rpm to cure that.

That chart is as harmful as it is useful. Those specs are MINIMUM, that's where you draw the line in the sand. I wouldn't run an engine that low unless there was a good reason for it. Increasing idle is a band aid for a problem.

Chad has his on his 818R, mine is on my LGT. So my radiator setup is very different from an 818. It's a Fluidyne radiator with two Spal fans. I really don't need the fans except for tests like this. At the racetrack the only time I've had water temps high enough to turn them on is when waiting in the scales line after a race.

Fair enough. My guess is a thicker core, which is harder to get air through at low (no) speeds.

Next up is running some tests with a vacuum/boost gauge to see what happens if I leave the engine sealed up; if too much blow-by is not scavenged and creates a positive pressure in the vent tubes. I can't really test that until I get to a track and get the car under load so the turbo will boost. I don't really care if it's creating vacuum, I just want it to keep up with blow-by pressure. If it does I may just leave the system sealed up, effectively running two balance systems, the OEM on the back vents and the 3/4" hoses on the front vents/pcv vent.

You'll want a gauge with a very low range so you have decent resolution +/-5psi Hg

Blow-by won't be scavenged with only 2-stages (it's not really the purpose of the scavenge pump anyway) which is why it needs to be vented any why valve cover vents and crankcase vents need to go the separate vent can. Also, while combustion pressures should increase blow-by, when you get on boil the P/W clearance tightens and blow-by will reduce. When you install gauges you will see some neat things.

[C.Plavan]

I fired her up yesterday. I disconnected the rear oil cooler and was just running the two front coolers (no fans). I did notice that the oil cooler lines after the Spintric were not "pulsating" like they were before the install. The only lines pulsating were the scavenge out, and the top air line out of the Spintric. The pulsating was the air, and I remember the front oil cooler lines doing that before the Spintric.

I ran the car, the oil temp got to 180, then I ran it at 5k-6k Rpm. It got up to 240 (remember no air flow over coolers) quickly (less than 5 min). The only real test for me will be running the car on the track like I have been, sitting in the garage, with no load and revving the crap out of it does not mean much to me. I have never done a "base" measure, nor do I have oil pressure/temp logging. So I just need to go run the snot out of it and go from there.

There was some oil aeration bubbles at the top of the tank, but that really does not help since we only care what is at the bottom pickup. The change in height/level from bubbles to oil was about 3/4" (once bubbles dissipated after turning car off).

So the real test will be Aug 21st. If that does not work, then I will be throwing on the 10cm oil pump and some different pulley's.


Sitting there with both radiator fans going- coolant was getting to 220+ (when revving at 6k) My car needs to move.

Note to self: I should of just bought the complete ARE setup instead of this Element Tuning mixed bag of parts.

[Sgt.Gator]

The spintric driveway test is encouraging.

Note to self: I should of just bought the complete ARE setup instead of this Element Tuning mixed bag of parts.

I hear ya. In looking at the pics at http://drysump.com/Subaru.htm it's not clear to me how the setup works. The pump has a pressure out port, but they are still feeding the oil up thru the pan and into the OEM pump (which is still clearly in the pics). I wonder if you are supposed to gut out the internals of the OEM pump?

The Dailey Engineering looks even better but I think it requires custom headers. In the pics there too the oem pump is still on the front of the motor. http://www.daileyengineering.com/sub...4_cylinder.htm

The Cosworth is also a 2 stage scavenge only system like our Element Tuning systems, but their pump pulleys are sized to slow down the pump, not speed it up like Element Tuning's. I like the design of the Cosworth pan a lot better than the ARE pan, at least in the pics.



The Cosworth system includes a Crankcase Breather Filter and Fitting, and they say: "A dry sump also offers more consistent oil pressure to the engine, improved scavenging, and increased ring seal due to greater pan vacuum."

The crankcase breather is a pressure regulator:



You can see it installed on the right in this pic. It appears to replace the oem oil filler tube, where I have a block off plate now:



From what I know of pressure regulator design, this one appears to allow the crankcase to release pressure at some setting, and not allow air in. But without the installation instructions there's no way to be sure from these pics.


They retain the stock A/C belt tightening function but replace the A/C pulley with an idler. They had to because the pump belt is moved out to the front of the crank pulley.




I'd sure like to get a copy of the Cosworth installation instructions, and buy one of those crankcase regulator setups. I guess you have to pay to get the F1 qualified engineering.

Note to self: When I build my 818R order the Cosworth kit.

[killerbmotorsport]

There area a couple methods for passing through the OEM pump.

If the venting isn't right or the engine is sealed it will cause problems. This is why I asked of you've run the test with your oil filler removed. Common on these cars is venting through a remote vent can. The cosy setup add a vacuum regulator (not a pressure regulator) because you don't want too much vacuum. I'd be surprised if you truly needed it with only 2 scavenge stages, but my guess is its a part of their generic dry sump oiling offering for all makes/models. You definitely do need one with four.

There is no magic to installing the Cosy setup. It follows similar guidelines as any other dry sump setup. Vacuum is a selling point of a dry sump, but don't forget... on these engines, in OE form, you are already pulling vacuum. With an N/A application the impact would be much more dramatic.

On the pump and pulley sizes it may have to do with rotor efficiency or size or design. Every setup is different and has their rhyme and reason. Slower reduces the accumulative parasitic loses of all the scavenge stages and faster provides more pressure (when you have a pressure stage). It's a balance. There is a reason for the sizes they choose and I would definitely get their feedback before changing that recipe they know works.

[Sgt.Gator]

If the venting isn't right or the engine is sealed it will cause problems. This is why I asked of you've run the test with your oil filler removed. Common on these cars is venting through a remote vent can. The cosy setup add a vacuum regulator (not a pressure regulator) because you don't want too much vacuum. I'd be surprised if you truly needed it with only 2 scavenge stages, but my guess is its a part of their generic dry sump oiling offering for all makes/models. You definitely do need one with four.

If the Cosworth regulator is vacuum only that implies the two stage scavenge pulls enough vacuum to not worry about positive pressure in the crank case, and that otherwise the engine is sealed up. If there was also an open vent to the vented DS Tank or straight to a breather can to release positive crankcase pressures, there would be no point in having a vacuum regulator.

On the pump and pulley sizes it may have to do with rotor efficiency or size or design. Every setup is different and has their rhyme and reason. Slower reduces the accumulative parasitic loses of all the scavenge stages and faster provides more pressure (when you have a pressure stage). It's a balance. There is a reason for the sizes they choose and I would definitely get their feedback before changing that recipe they know works.

I talked with John, the owner of Aviaid, the pumps we use, it's in an earlier post here. He suggested trying a larger pulley, 5.5 or 6". The ones he has cost $180 and use a special Fenner bushing to adapt the 5/8 drive to a 1 inch pulley. The one I found at Summit already has a 5/8 drive.
We'll see next week when I hit ORP for a test session. I'll have a vacuum gauge installed then too.

[killerbmotorsport]

If the Cosworth regulator is vacuum only that implies the two stage scavenge pulls enough vacuum to not worry about positive pressure in the crank case, and that otherwise the engine is sealed up. If there was also an open vent to the vented DS Tank or straight to a breather can to release positive crankcase pressures, there would be no point in having a vacuum regulator.

All that it implies is you want to limit vacuum. If there is less vacuum, it does nothing. If it creates positive pressure, it vents. Scavenge pumps do not mean you ALWAYS have vacuum and because you're pulling air/oil and pushing air/oil the net effect on the PCV is lower than if you were to just pull from the sump and dumping it. The reservoir you're pumping air/oil into is connected to the PCV. The same PCV you're pulling from. Net scavenge (vacuum) is low.

I talked with John, the owner of Aviaid, the pumps we use, it's in an earlier post here. He suggested trying a larger pulley, 5.5 or 6". The ones he has cost $180 and use a special Fenner bushing to adapt the 5/8 drive to a 1 inch pulley. The one I found at Summit already has a 5/8 drive.
We'll see next week when I hit ORP for a test session. I'll have a vacuum gauge installed then too.

Surprising answer. I've dealt with Aviaid very little, but this is an engine that's been around since the mid-90s. I'd have thought they'd know exactly how it should be per your setup?

Which vacuum gauge did you end up going with? Forgot to mention, you'll definitely want a liquid filled unit if you go mechanical. Or an electrical version that can cope with the oscillations.