Oil issues: Dry Sump, Accusump for road racing?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I used this bender to make my own 5/8" aluminum crossover vent tube to replace the rusty stock one. I'll post pictures later.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It has a pretty tight 2 1/4" bend radius and worked well on some annealed aluminum tube from Summit:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G2558

I'd be surprised if it worked well on stainless tube. Stainless is so much more difficult to bend. I have no plans to make anything out of 5/8" stainless tube with it, but if someone has some scrap they'd like to send me, I'd be happy to try bending it and report back. Ridgid makes a ratcheting bender for 5/8" with a 3" radius of bend - might work better.

The problem you'll run into with the hardlines is you will never get close to the bend radius you can get out of a 90-degree hose fitting. You have to have the tube sleeve pre-installed on the tube before you bend it (otherwise the sleeve will not slide through the bend), which means you have to flare it before you bend it. So you end up with about a 1.5" straight section after your flare before the bend starts. The bend radius of those hose fittings is probably less than 1 inch. It might work for you - just a consideration to keep in mind.

Another issue is while the bender makes a smooth bend in the aluminum tubing, it does collapse it slightly in the bend (not as bad as a compression-bent exhaust tube, but not nearly as good as mandrel-bent). I don't know if a slightly collapsed -12 tube would restrict oil flow too much or not. Probably not, but worth thinking about.

The best solution is probably Chad's - sleeving and heat shield.

I was worried also- I just used fire braid wrap (doubled up in close areas) then used the OEM Header Heatshields (on OEM headers of course- since they did not sit below frame like other headers). Everything was good. I even checked an oil line when I was replacing the oil pump to see if it was heat damaged (cut into it). It was all good, no issues.

Thanks Chad an Zack,
With OEM header there is a lot more space to get the hoses out of the hot box. I trying to use some cheap ebay EL headers.
The best way for me to get the 2 scavenge line out is through the hole behind the water pump. With two -12 hoses, on would probably end up touching the header. I would put fire wrap on it no matter what.
I talked to John from Aviaid and said two -10 scavenge line would be enough. If I can get two -10 (5/8"OD) tubes through that hole, it solve my concerns. I want to go with steel tubing so I may have to get creative with bender without spending a fortune.

[Scargo]

I would use steel or stainless steel. First, I would look at the header pipe(s) and see if they could be altered. I'd still do steel unless you can get about an inch away, minimum. Then, everything needs to be well wrapped or shielded.
I just had a friend (Subaru STi) have an oil hose burst, make him spin out and caught his car on fire. Not good.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I would use steel or stainless steel. First, I would look at the header pipe(s) and see if they could be altered. I'd still do steel unless you can get about an inch away, minimum. Then, everything needs to be well wrapped or shielded.
I just had a friend (Subaru STi) have an oil hose burst, make him spin out and caught his car on fire. Not good.

Scargo
We are thinking the same. I'll have something to show you in a couple of days.
Bob

[RetroRacing]

Our fire had NOTHING to do with the dry sump, pictures and explanation are posted on the build thread. What we did with running vacuum in the block worked perfectly, but based on instructions from Elements, we might just change that to vent depending on what the dyno sais with our new engine. The way we have our vents set up, its a 2 minute change to test both.

[FFRSpec72]

Our fire had NOTHING to do with the dry sump, pictures and explanation are posted on the build thread. What we did with running vacuum in the block worked perfectly, but based on instructions from Elements, we might just change that to vent depending on what the dyno sais with our new engine. The way we have our vents set up, its a 2 minute change to test both.

I will most likely run vent and not vacuum, as Leo is having good luck with his setup in the 818R

[Bob_n_Cincy]

I would use steel or stainless steel. First, I would look at the header pipe(s) and see if they could be altered. I'd still do steel unless you can get about an inch away, minimum. Then, everything needs to be well wrapped or shielded.
I just had a friend (Subaru STi) have an oil hose burst, make him spin out and caught his car on fire. Not good.

Scargo
We are thinking the same. I'll have something to show you in a couple of days.
Bob

Scargo,
I followed your suggestion to use steel lines to my dry sump pan.
I didn't want to take a chance of melting a hose.(or worse)
I test fitted this EL header and the OEM UL header wit all factory heat shield.
I still have to fire sleeve the tubes and Hoses. I will also wrap the headers.
Bottom view:
20161012_bottom.jpg

tubes under header:
There is two fingers of clearance between headers and tubes.
20161012_out.jpg

Tubes up the side:
I have a short piece of vacuum rated in the vertical tubes for flexibility.
20161012_vertical pipes.jpg

Top View:
The pump hoses are working out.
20161012_top.jpg

Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

Bob that looks very interesting. I hope you don't get too much vibration or flex in those hardlines that would cause them to crack.

[Zach34]

How did you end up bending them?

[Scargo]

Bob, I echo Gator's concern. You said "I have a short piece of vacuum rated in the vertical tubes for flexibility." That should help considerably but I'd anchor them to the engine anyway because there is that mass that is technically suspended and vibrating off two points. I've had steel fuel lines fatigue and crack.
Looks good though. Very clean and tight to the motor. I wonder why this isn't more common? At least I've not seen much of it. -10 AN/5/8" tube, right?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob that looks very interesting. I hope you don't get too much vibration or flex in those hardlines that would cause them to crack.

I am adding a support bracket near the flex joint.

How did you end up bending them?

I used a harbor freight pipe bender (kinker) with a bending spring around the tube. At 90 degrees it would just start to kink the tube. http://www.mcmaster.com/#2420a16/=14kv1h6

Bob, I echo Gator's concern. You said "I have a short piece of vacuum rated in the vertical tubes for flexibility." That should help considerably but I'd anchor them to the engine anyway because there is that mass that is technically suspended and vibrating off two points. I've had steel fuel lines fatigue and crack.
Looks good though. Very clean and tight to the motor. I wonder why this isn't more common? At least I've not seen much of it. -10 AN/5/8" tube, right?

It was hard and time consuming to make the tubes.
I took the tubes to a local hydraulic shop and the flared them for me in 10 minutes. $12 total.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#9220k371/=14kuzwk $12 for 6 feet.
Bob

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Today I spent some time getting the dry sump tank ready.
Here are some pictures:

bling.jpg
A lot of shiny aluminum will look nice in the back of the vehicle. It is a 10 quart tank.

bottom.jpg
This is the inside bottom of the tank, the pickup tube sucks up oil going to the Subaru OEM pump.

top.jpg
This is the inside top of the tank. The circular tube is the hot oil and air come from the scavenge pump. The centrifugal force of the spinning air throws the heavier oil against the walls of the tank. There is a cap in the top of the tank. The tube sticking out in the top middle of the tank, is the clean air going to the breather tank. The other hole in the top of the tank goes to the vent holes in the top of the engine. I am going to tie mine into the crossover tube that goes to the top of the two valve covers. I will block off the PCV vents in the block.

Baffle.jpg
This is the baffle plate that separates the oil from the air chambers.

[Scargo]

Thanks for that description and pics! Looks well designed and nicely built. Does the "10 quart tank" refers to it's rated capacity (leaving the necessary air headroom above the baffle plate)? I calculated that, with my STi system, I have 2.8 quarts in the Accusump, cooler, filter and lines and 6 quarts in the pan. Would you have a total of ten quarts or would a complete system oil change be more? When running, might the tank only hold five quarts?
Is there a port for adding a heater?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Thanks for that description and pics! Looks well designed and nicely built. Does the "10 quart tank" refers to it's rated capacity (leaving the necessary air headroom above the baffle plate)? I calculated that, with my STi system, I have 2.8 quarts in the Accusump, cooler, filter and lines and 6 quarts in the pan. Would you have a total of ten quarts or would a complete system oil change be more? When running, might the tank only hold five quarts?
Is there a port for adding a heater?

Scargo,
I believe the 10 quarts is the whole tank. So you would only put about 6 or 7 quarts of oil in it.
I figure my big oil filter is 1 quart and the lines, marine cooler, and engine is another quart.
The pan is zero. So the total in my system is 8 or 9 quarts.

There is not a port for a heater.
Here is a list bottom to top.
-12 drain plug (heater wont work there as pick up is in the way)
-12 oil out to Subaru pump.
-12 oil & air in from scavenge pump
-12 air to breather
-10 air to top of engine
quarter turn oil fill cap.

Bob

[FFRSpec72]

I have the Aviaid 10 Litre tank (7.5" x 16") with Pressure out, Drain Out, Breather Out, Savage In, Vent In

[FFRSpec72]

OK, what size are the bolts that hold the A/C and now the Dry Sump pump to the AC bracket as they are course thread and don't look metric and could not find any yesterday to finish mounting my pump. Are these M8x75 ?

[RetroRacing]

I think the ones holding the pump to the bracket are M8x1, but ours had nuts and washers. If you are talking about the ones holding the bracket to the engine, they are 8x1.25

[FFRSpec72]

I think the ones holding the pump to the bracket are M8x1, but ours had nuts and washers. If you are talking about the ones holding the bracket to the engine, they are 8x1.25

My bracket is threaded (where the A/C compressor would mount and where the pump will mount now), the bolt size seems to be M8 but all I have is M8x1.25 and that is too fine a thread, the original bolts that hold the compress are way too long. So my guess would be M8x75x40 or maybe they are a DIN thread ? anyway I can't find any course thread M8, maybe a 5/16 course thread will work ?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

My bracket is threaded (where the A/C compressor would mount and where the pump will mount now), the bolt size seems to be M8 but all I have is M8x1.25 and that is too fine a thread, the original bolts that hold the compress are way too long. So my guess would be M8x75x40 or maybe they are a DIN thread ? anyway I can't find any course thread M8, maybe a 5/16 course thread will work ?

Tony,
My Aviaid pump bracket uses M10 x 1.25 35mm long
My Aviaid pump uses 1/4-20 x 3.75" grade 8.
bob

[FFRSpec72]

Tony,
My Aviaid pump bracket uses M10 x 1.25 35mm long
My Aviaid pump uses 1/4-20 x 3.75" grade 8.
bob

So the M10 x 1.25 35mm long thread into the stock Subaru A/C Bracket ? I marked the bolts in the picture below that I need

DrySump.jpg

[RetroRacing]

Ours were drilled out and had a nut and washer if I remember correctly, but I will check tonight

[Bob_n_Cincy]

So the M10 x 1.25 35mm long thread into the stock Subaru A/C Bracket ? I marked the bolts in the picture below that I need

DrySump.jpg

Tony,
My aviaid kit came with both M10 x 1.25 x 35 and m10 x1.5 x 35.
The m10x1.25 are still in the box. So the M10x 1.50 must be the ones I used.
Sorry for the confusion.
Bob

[Sgt.Gator]

Definitely M10 x 1.5 . Lowes sells them in various lengths.

[Mulry]

Via the special -12an to 20mmx1.5 fitting in the oil filter feed galley will require the pressure by-pass Spring (rear of pump) be set and checked and the use of an inline oil filter like I did.
Happy dry sumping y'all ;-)
Dave

With regard to the oil filter feed galley, how did you plug the hole for oil to go out to the filter? Tap and set-screw? I think that's how I'm going to get the oil into our engine too. Thanks.

[RetroRacing]

What Gator said, I was mistaken with the nut thing.

[RetroRacing]

With regard to the oil filter feed galley, how did you plug the hole for oil to go out to the filter? Tap and set-screw? I think that's how I'm going to get the oil into our engine too. Thanks.

I don't understand, you have two side of the oiling system with the drysump in this configuration. You have the scavange/feed side and the pressure side. The pressure side uses an adapter for a remote filter and cooler (pressure through the filter, through the cooler, then back to bearings). The scavenge/feed side only sucks the oil from the pan and sends it to the tank that feeds the stock pump. I will probably install a filter between the scavenge pump and the tank but you want as little restriction possible on the scavenge/feed side so I'm told. I'm starting to wonder if I should plumb the filter and cooler between the tank and the pump, to bring down the balloon size on the pressure side. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

[FFRSpec72]

With regard to the oil filter feed galley, how did you plug the hole for oil to go out to the filter? Tap and set-screw? I think that's how I'm going to get the oil into our engine too. Thanks.

I don't understand, you have two side of the oiling system with the drysump in this configuration. You have the scavange/feed side and the pressure side. The pressure side uses an adapter for a remote filter and cooler (pressure through the filter, through the cooler, then back to bearings). The scavenge/feed side only sucks the oil from the pan and sends it to the tank that feeds the stock pump. I will probably install a filter between the scavenge pump and the tank but you want as little restriction possible on the scavenge/feed side so I'm told. I'm starting to wonder if I should plumb the filter and cooler between the tank and the pump, to bring down the balloon size on the pressure side. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

I'm just going to leave the remote oil filter and cooler as I have it now without the dry sump feeding off where the standard oil filter went

[Mulry]

With regard to the oil filter feed galley, how did you plug the hole for oil to go out to the filter? Tap and set-screw? I think that's how I'm going to get the oil into our engine too. Thanks.

I don't understand, you have two side of the oiling system with the drysump in this configuration. You have the scavange/feed side and the pressure side. The pressure side uses an adapter for a remote filter and cooler (pressure through the filter, through the cooler, then back to bearings). The scavenge/feed side only sucks the oil from the pan and sends it to the tank that feeds the stock pump. I will probably install a filter between the scavenge pump and the tank but you want as little restriction possible on the scavenge/feed side so I'm told. I'm starting to wonder if I should plumb the filter and cooler between the tank and the pump, to bring down the balloon size on the pressure side. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

What might clear this up is if you have a photo or part number for how you're getting the oil back into the engine after the pressure stage of the oil pump?

[Scargo]

If I'm understanding the line of questioning, then more to the point is what do you do with the gaping holes where the filter normally sits? In most of the common DS systems we are seeing here, the dry sump pans collect oil and immediately suck it out and return it (back through a fitting on the front edge of the pan) to the spot on the block where the stock oil pickup tube normally attaches. Though I haven't seen one, I would assume the oil filter mount area is covered with a block-off plate.

[Mulry]

If I'm understanding the line of questioning, then more to the point is what do you do with the gaping holes where the filter normally sits? In most of the common DS systems we are seeing here, the dry sump pans collect oil and immediately suck it out and return it (back through a fitting on the front edge of the pan) to the spot on the block where the stock oil pickup tube normally attaches. Though I haven't seen one, I would assume the oil filter mount area is covered with a block-off plate.

This was precisely the point of my question. There are 2 holes at the oil filter location on the bottom of the block. In stock form, the large, threaded hole in the middle is where the oil returns to the engine from the oil filter. The small, unthreaded hole to the side is where pressurized oil leaves the block to go through the oil filter.

In a dry sump system, you remove the oil through the scavenge plate. You could return it through the large threaded hole -- but you have to do something to block the small hole.

It sounds like biknman is using the large threaded hole as his oil feed to the engine, which was the point of my original question -- what is he doing to plug the other hole?

To clarify further, I'm not using the stock oil pump, but a 3-stage pump (2 scavenge, one pressure), as is biknman.

[FFRSpec72]

If I'm understanding the line of questioning, then more to the point is what do you do with the gaping holes where the filter normally sits? In most of the common DS systems we are seeing here, the dry sump pans collect oil and immediately suck it out and return it (back through a fitting on the front edge of the pan) to the spot on the block where the stock oil pickup tube normally attaches. Though I haven't seen one, I would assume the oil filter mount area is covered with a block-off plate.

Not me, using a moroso remote oil mount and keeping the stock oil heat transfer thing, so you don't have to do anything in that area.

[Mulry]

Not me, using a moroso remote oil mount and keeping the stock oil heat transfer thing, so you don't have to do anything in that area.

Are you just plugging the out side of the Moroso remote oil mount with an AN o-ring plug?

[FFRSpec72]

Are you just plugging the out side of the Moroso remote oil mount with an AN o-ring plug?

No it will function like it does now, it will flow oil to the filter and cooler, so lines go to filter and then cooler and back to engine

[Scargo]

Tony, Sick!
Here's one option, like/similar to what Biknman used:
710-23815.jpg
Just an innie.

[Mulry]

Tony, Sick!
Here's one option, like/similar to what Biknman used:
710-23815.jpg
Just an innie.

Yeah, that's what I have now. So there are 2 questions with that unit:
1. needs a male-male union to connect that Moroso plate to the oil galley input at the oil filter location; anybody found one of those in the right length yet?
2. Question about how to plug the oil out-to-stock-filter hole remains unanswered. Also known as the original question I asked.

[FFRSpec72]

Yeah, that's what I have now. So there are 2 questions with that unit:
1. needs a male-male union to connect that Moroso plate to the oil galley input at the oil filter location; anybody found one of those in the right length yet?
2. Question about how to plug the oil out-to-stock-filter hole remains unanswered. Also known as the original question I asked.

Are you using the stock heat exchanger or have you removed that ?

[Mulry]

Removed it.

[RetroRacing]

guys, the oil pump picks up the oil from the same pickup point. There is an o-ringed step up in the pan, with two bolts that bolt the pan tightly to the stock pickup tube mount. you could leave everything else stock if you wanted, or put in an adapter to run a remote filter/cooler set up. THis is system has no pressure stage, it just moves allot of oil from the pan to the tank. THe oil pick up is plumbed directly to the bottom of the tank so no oil pickup problems.

[Mulry]

That makes sense. So you could either run a filter on the stock location, run a remote there (if you're not already plumbing a remote in with the dry sump system), or you could just block it off entirely. Fair conclusion?

[Zach34]

Good grief, this thread got confusing as hell today.

Mulry is quoting bikman, who used a custom 3-stage system (1 pressure, 2 scavenge). Every other person in this thread, to my knowledge, is using some variation of the scavenge-only system produced by Element or Cosworth where the stock oil pump functions as the pressure stage and so the stock oil filter can be used (or a remote setup can be installed just as you could on a stock WRX).

bikman plumbed the output of his external pressure stage directly to the input of the oil filter port using an adapter. If you're not using an external pressure stage like he did, you don't have to worry about that adapter - you're going to use the stock filter or remote filter setup.

[Sgt.Gator]

LOL, I was typing my post below when Zach34 cleared it up already.

My comments only pertain to the Element Tuning/Cosworth style system that relies on the OEM oil pump for block/heads lubrication.
You can run a stock oil filter in the stock location. The simplest.
You can put a sandwich adaptor on the stock filter location and run hoses to a remote cooler. Generally you have to use the OEM "cooler/heater" to get a sandwich plate to work because 95% of the sandwich plate adaptors don't have room to fit up against the block with the filter below. I'm not sure which one will fit against the block.
You can run a remote system off the oem filter location.
And you can run the pressure stage that returns to the tank thru a cooler and I suppose a remote filter on the way to the tank. I don't know why you would run the OEM filter in the OEM location AND run a remote filter on the tank line but I think there's enough pressure to do it.

Don't put a filter or a cooler in the line from the tank back to the OEM pump pickup in the DS pan. You don't want the OEM pump to have to "suck" hardly at all. That's why the tank is mounted slightly higher than the bottom of the DS pan, so the oil will flow naturally by gravity from the tank to the pan/pickup.

Generally in all the research I've done and the way my system runs most Subaru folks keep the OEM filter, ditch the OEM cooler/heater, and put a cooler on the line that goes to the DS tank.

As for systems that include block pressure stage(s) on the pump, that's another discussion.