Could've had a V8

[CanadianYank]

My first FFR attraction was the GTM... Had to have one. But it was hard to swallow the total cost involved and finding the all the parts required would be a challenge not to mention stomaching destroying a beloved Corvette in the process. I have a C6 Corvette and I love it best sports car a man could own, Like I said, I am partial to Chevrolet.

Then the 818... as a die hard Chevy guy it was hard to think about the possibility of building a kit car from a Subaru. I can think of all of the rice jokes over the years and now I'm serving up a big dish of it. Iv'e been doing a lot of research on the Subaru boxer and I am very impressed with it's engineering, simplicity and HP potential with the little EJ. It is still my plan to build the 818 as was proposed by FFR.

But what if this was used instead? Here installed in a RWD Fiero.

LS41.JPGLS42.JPGLS43.JPG

The forgotten LSX... Chevy all aluminum LS4 5.3L V8 found in FWD Chevrolet® Monte Carlo® SS and Pontiac Grand Prix® with a 325ci transverse-mounted V8 engine that was rated at between 290 - 303 horsepower stock. Many have been retrofitted into Fiero's... Just change around the CV's like is done with the Subaru. Of course frame modifications would be required but damn the car would be cool!

Maybe my next build after the Subaru powered 818 is finished.

Food for thought!

Frank

[David Hodgkins]

I had no idea they were putting V8's in Fieros. I had one when they first came out. The horsepower was anemic but that car had tons of legroom!

[Rasmus]

Looks ridiculous. I approve.

Grab a grinder, some tube, and a welder and get to fabbing. I want to hear that V8 rumble come out of an 818.

[D Clary]

Maybe you could fit the whole sub frame under the 8i8 with a little trimming, fender flares,

[CanadianYank]

FWD Pontiac G3 and Chevy Impala SS. 5.3L. It's got the GM 60 degree pattern on the bell housing and mounts to the FWD transmission. There are many different types of transmissions used as well as a manual 6 speed. FWD is the reason nobody thinks about them. You can find them dirt cheap in the yards. All LSX internals will swap so power mods are easy. Here are a few more pics...


Fiero.jpgFiero2.jpgFiero3.jpgFiero4.jpgFiero5.jpg

[STiPWRD]

Why stop there? A quick Ebay search reveals there are plenty of cheap used V12 engines from old BMWs, Mercedes, and Jaguars. It's only a matter of time.

[Frank818]

If the length is around 28", it will definitely not fit without frame and body mods. Or maybe just frame mods if you delete the rear gas tank.

[Kalstar]

I looked into this extensively, the engine is basically square 27" 3/4. The accessory drive is tight to the block (nearly an inch closer the LS1 and the crank is .3 shorter then the typical LS. I have a 5.3 in my GTM that with a cam only is over 420 crank HP (dyno to prove it). I asked Jim (designed the 818) he felt it would be a huge up hill battle to fit one of these. The trans is an auto but it is in the right orientation. I would also love to do this.

[CanadianYank]

Why stop there? A quick Ebay search reveals there are plenty of cheap used V12 engines from old BMWs, Mercedes, and Jaguars. It's only a matter of time.

Come on Darth I said I wasn't changing course just an Idea... LOL

Frank

[Toysrus]

With ecoboost dead I wanted to revisit the ls4 option.

Seems to be alot of people are not fully understanding this option.

First off this is a transverse mounted engine, 27.5 inches wide and if you look at where the output shafts come out I don't think the firewall gas tank area would be a factor at all.
OK now height 27.5 inches. H6 motors are 25 inches. Factors to consider are where will the oil pan line up with the lower frame rails? (Dry sump? Other LS motors have it but this block isn't exactly the same)

Length. H6 motors are 32 inches wide at the heads. Ls4 is about 34 inches wide with a f40 manual trans. Likely longer with the automatic.
Factors, since the widest (length of the motor/trans) is at the bottom what will interfer. Also the wide part will likely be further back in the engine compartment so the rear bars that angle in to the engine bay may be impacted.

Weight ls4 is all aluminum and weighs only a bit more than a h6. F40 trans 125 lbs. However your engine and trans weight will be in front of your rear wheels.

Other factors. Ls4 wasn't available with a manual and mounting one is costly and difficult. No manual ecus. Displacement on demand makes upgrades difficult.

So only inexpensive option is a automatic and factory ecu.
If it fits.

[Frank818]

Just to give an idea, a VW VR6 with transverse 6-sp gearbox did not fit at all. The lateral links' brackets where in the way and the rear angled bars. Not sure how the transverse LS4 would fit in that area.

If there exists a transverse manual transmission that can be bolted on and if it fits, then the ECU is not problem if you go stand alone, that would be the solution for the ECU. But it's more costly than automatic and factory ECU, of course. It's just a second option, as long as it fits.

[GoDadGo]

I've seen one Fiero GT recently that was fitted with Northstar Cadi V-8 and it was impressive.

The LS options is far superior in my opinion, heck an LS anything is always a good option.

[Toysrus]

Just to give an idea, a VW VR6 with transverse 6-sp gearbox did not fit at all. The lateral links' brackets where in the way and the rear angled bars. Not sure how the transverse LS4 would fit in that area.

If there exists a transverse manual transmission that can be bolted on and if it fits, then the ECU is not problem if you go stand alone, that would be the solution for the ECU. But it's more costly than automatic and factory ECU, of course. It's just a second option, as long as it fits.

I didn't consider the suspension mounts getting in the way. The rear angled frame I figured (seems like that could be fixed).
But that's the info I was looking for. Previous posts were off the mark on fitment issues.

Most likely any issues the vw motor had would be that much worse for the ls4.

But yes the gm f40 manual trans bolts up, but requires custom flywheel and bellhousing has to be cut and provisioned for a starter. Gets expensive fast unless your a machinest. There is 1 aftermarket intake $$$.
A fiero owner made 382whp and 315wtq with intake cam exhaust and tune.

But with all the work involved you might as well cut the frame and extend the back of the car for a gtm style setup. The $12k difference in kit cost would easily cover the fiberglass and frame mods. From the looks of it cutting off at the frame just behind the last vertical bar to move the a arm locations back and a longer torsion arm. Then cut the body in front of the wheel arches and behind the roof.

[Toysrus]

More thoughts on a gtm mode. Seems like adapting the sti trans to a ls engine would be the cheapest option it's listed as a possible trans for the gtm. Starter mounting , flywheel etc ???

Seems like 10 inches is about what would be needed to make it work. Possibly 7 inches.

I wonder what a 818 would look like with a 10 inch longer rear section and longer wheel base.

[ben1272]

http://www.h1v8.com/web-page.html

Link is to Hartley Engines. They make small V8 engines from hayabusa motorcycle engines.

http://www.h1v8.com/albums/album_ima...06/4174011.htm

I dont know what they cost, or even what transaxles could be considered, but would be awesome in the 818!

-Ben

[Frank818]

I think cutting the frame and body is the least complex solution. It's a lot of work, a lot of redesign, no idea how it will look cuz this affects the whole car, but once that's done, then no problem fitting anything in there, so you deal ONE problem and you fix all in one.

Wow, nice idea on the 2.8L V8! The engine is only 17 long, but adding the adapter plate and the distance to axle centers makes it 27in long. I can't recall the total length from FW to axle centers on the frame, would have to re-measure but if 27 fits then yeah that seems like a cool option. Although there is no torque, depends if you want a V8 for torque or high hps.

[flynntuna]

http://www.h1v8.com/web-page.html

Link is to Hartley Engines. They make small V8 engines from hayabusa motorcycle engines.

http://www.h1v8.com/albums/album_ima...06/4174011.htm

I dont know what they cost, or even what transaxles could be considered, but would be awesome in the 818!

-Ben

The BOLT 4 a 4cyl engine is $17k. Can't imagine what an 8cyl engine would be. Not really in keeping with the 818's low cost philosophy. Spending that kind of cash, you might as well buy a GTM or one of the other offerings FFR has.

[flynntuna]

Though if I won the lotto...

http://www.h1v8.com/f/2.0L_BOLT_V8_r1.PDF

http://www.taylor-race.com/items.cfm...g%20Transaxles

[Hindsight]

I think one of the things FFR got right with the 818 is using the EJ engine. Many reasons. An 8cyl is just not a good option for the 818 IMHO. I do love V8s and toyed with the idea myself for a while but you'd be doing a BOAT-load of work on the car... so much that I just don't see the advantage of using the 818 as your base platform instead of a GTM. The GTM doesn't weigh much more and I bet you could build it way cheaper than any 818 with a V8.

[Canadian818]

I think one of the things FFR got right with the 818 is using the EJ engine. Many reasons. An 8cyl is just not a good option for the 818 IMHO. I do love V8s and toyed with the idea myself for a while but you'd be doing a BOAT-load of work on the car... so much that I just don't see the advantage of using the 818 as your base platform instead of a GTM. The GTM doesn't weigh much more and I bet you could build it way cheaper than any 818 with a V8.

I disagree, the 15k difference in starting price makes it far cheaper to do. I considered it, the steel work doesn't intimidate me, but making the body look right did.

[Toysrus]

So audi 4.2l v8 bolts directly to the fwd manual 5 or 6 speed audi/porche fwd zf. Like this one with lsd.
http://advancedautomotion.com/shop/p...roducts_id/287

4.2 is only 20 inches long. I'll quite the source.

A few spec for doing an Audi 4.2 V8
Total length (Audi ABZ engine + 01X gearbox) = 1200mm
Length of engine (front pulley to bellhousing face) = 490mm
Length of 01X gearbox (bellhousing to rear casing) =710mm
Max width of engine (across exhaust manifolds) = 760mm
Max height of engine (sump to idle air valve) = 660mm
Drive shaft position (front pulley to drive flange) =690mm (or from gearbox rear casing = 510mm)

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/087996-2.html

[Toysrus]

Audi 4.2l v8 and 5 or 6 speed audi fwd trans.


A few spec for doing an Audi 4.2 V8
Total length (Audi ABZ engine + 01X gearbox) = 1200mm
Length of engine (front pulley to bellhousing face) = 490mm
Length of 01X gearbox (bellhousing to rear casing) =710mm
Max width of engine (across exhaust manifolds) = 760mm
Max height of engine (sump to idle air valve) = 660mm
Drive shaft position (front pulley to drive flange) =690mm (or from gearbox rear casing = 510mm)

[Toysrus]

My post with the links to the 6 sp fwd o1e trans with wave Trac lsd and link to the fiero nl forum where I got the info is being moderated

[longislandwrx]

I thought Frank would be all over this.

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[Toysrus]

Sweet so who is doing it? The w12 is only 21 inches

[longislandwrx]

W8 from a Passat. nice and short.

[UnhipPopano]

The engine will probably not fit, and parts are way too expensive. I once had to purchase a VW bolt [German Metric fine], and could not believe how expensive it was. While this was some time ago, they have not changed. This is a from a recent quote 'Everything and anything that is on or near the engine is a nightmare to work on and costs lots of moola.'.

[Toysrus]

Here are some approx. fitting dimensions for the W8:
700mm wide (from Cylinder Head Covers)
500mm deep (Front Pulleys to rear Crank Case)
600mm high (Top Cover to Oil Pan)

Length is about the same as the audi.

Looks like the 01e trans would be as easy if not easier and strong as the sti for ls1.

As far as the w8 and audi fsi motors go I think they can fit. But I'm with you on the cost the rear timing chain assembly on the 4.2 is more than the cost of a sub ie motor

[Toysrus]

And I keep coming back to the ez36. But my ideal h6 would have higher rpm valve springs 7000 to 7500 rpm. A tvs 1320 roots supercharger with a custom wta intercooler intake and a haltech 2500. That's about $7 to $8k above engine, trans, flywheel, clutch etc...

[Frank818]

I disagree, the 15k difference in starting price makes it far cheaper to do. I considered it, the steel work doesn't intimidate me, but making the body look right did.

And yet you will be one of the few doing major 4-corner fender body work.

The engine will probably not fit, and parts are way too expensive. I once had to purchase a VW bolt [German Metric fine], and could not believe how expensive it was. While this was some time ago, they have not changed. This is a from a recent quote 'Everything and anything that is on or near the engine is a nightmare to work on and costs lots of moola.'.

Which makes the VR6 an excellent choice. Only probs are that it's heavier than H4 and higher center of gravity. But the sound....

[Toysrus]

I was looking at the Hartley v8 photo gallery saw a couple different setup for trans and it since the bellhousing or adapter has to be made custom and the 5.5 inch clutch is already on the engine the length of the motor and trans is dependent on the length of your input shaft. With that small of a clutch the throw out bearing and fork or whatever shouldn't take up much space. So if you can shorten your input shaft you should be able to make this more than short enough to fit.

[flynntuna]

I disagree, the 15k difference in starting price makes it far cheaper to do. I considered it, the steel work doesn't intimidate me, but making the body look right did.

If your going to go as far as stretching the frame to accomadate a v8 , the look of the body can be addressed by going bigger..

[Toysrus]

Wide body kit for all the guys using sti axles and wide tires!

[Lumpyguy]

818 side2.jpg

Here is a quick rendering of what the 818 might look like stretched 5-6 inches, my photo shop skills are not great. I am thinking LS engine with 6 speed STI trans. fiberglass work does not scare me, Its just that I spend all my time and money and just finished the build and now looking to re do it, guess it never ends, I am thinking bigger brakes and shocks and springs as well with the upgrade, also I will cage the car like the Hennesey GT to tie the front and rear together for strength and tie the windshield frame into it.

move the fuel tank to the front where the battery would be, then change the frame and roll bar to allow the longer engine to go in where the tank was.

just not sure how to do the body work for the engine cover to go around the down bar.

[flynntuna]

Hmmmm, something like this?

[Lumpyguy]

yes ish

818 side2.jpg

[Toysrus]

If your moving the fuel tank and moving the firewall bars you might not need to stretch the car. And you can buy ls1 to 01e adapters so you might want to consider the trans I linked further up in this thread.

[Toysrus]

Disregard subie trans is cheaper option
http://www.subarugears.com/Adaptors/Adaptors.html

[Lumpyguy]

I figured the subaru option would be the cheapest route, also my exact plan forward would have been to move the tank and use the space where the tank was and not streatch the body, I really just need measuring

[DrunkenSailor]

There is a guy who is making a kit to put the LS4/F40 into the Rossion Q1 as an NA option. The Rossion is only about 4 inches wider than the 818. I don't know how easily this setup could be adapted, but he is getting 467 WHP and 430 torque from it. I think he wants around 25K for that conversion. But it sounds awesome.