Forte's

Visit our community sponsor

Thanks Thanks:  0
Likes Likes:  0
Results 1 to 28 of 28

Thread: Destroked hybrid build opinions

  1. #1
    Senior Member Tamra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Shelton, CT
    Posts
    1,011
    Post Thanks / Like

    Destroked hybrid build opinions

    We are hoping to get some opinions on our engine build plan. We found out that our 2002 WRX donor with a "built" hybrid motor was really a stock EJ257 block with stock EJ205 heads. So, since we can't leave it with its current compression ratio, we are preparing to build the motor.

    We are thinking 300-350hp with a rev limit of 8k.

    Current idea:

    EJ257 Block modifications:
    JE FSR pistons for 2.0 heads
    Manley/MPS +2mm H Beam Rods
    75mm OEM Subaru Crankshaft (swap to WRX instead of STI)
    King Main Bearing Set (#5 Thrust / 52mm Journals)
    King Tri-Metal Performance Rod Bearing Set
    ARP Subaru EJ Series DOHC Headstuds

    EJ205 Head upgrades:
    GSC P-D EJ257 Beehive Valve Springs w/ Titanium Retainer Valvetrain Kit (Use factory spring seats)
    GSC P-D Subaru EJ Series EJ205/EJ207/EJ257 Chrome Polished Intake Valve - 36mm Head (STD) - SET 8
    GSC P-D Subaru EJ series EJ205/EJ207/EJ257 Chrome Polished Exhaust Valve-32mm Head(STD) -SET 8
    NOT machine to match combustion chamber diameter - leave as is (Nasioc has mixed opinions on this)

    Other upgrades:
    Killer B Motorsport Ultimate Oil Pickup
    Killer B Motorsport Oil Baffle Windage Tray
    STI oil pan
    OEM oil pump
    Upgrade from current modded light blue injectors to Injector Dynamics Fuel Injectors 1000cc
    Partial TGV deletes
    Cobb intake
    Gates racing timing belt
    Stock headers
    STI catless up-pipe
    Forge full recirc bpv
    Grimmspeed ebcs
    255lph fuel pump
    FrozenBoost AWIC
    Group N engine and transmission mounts
    Turbo TBD


    Outsource:
    -Balance Rotating Assembly


    What are everyone's thoughts on a build like this? We have been speaking with a couple of tuner shops. They would prefer that we switch to the EJ257 heads, but based on our budget and the cost of EJ257 heads, we are thinking we should stay with the 205 heads. With the parts listed above, we can afford to do this... it'll cost around $3k. We don't really want to spend much more of this.

    Opinions-
    Too much?
    Not enough?
    Destroked a good idea?
    EJ205 heads okay?
    Anything we are missing?

  2. #2
    818 builder metalmaker12's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Exeter R.I
    Posts
    2,834
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1
    You will need a port on the heads slightly and get good cams etc to get 8k, also why go 8k with your stock turbo, it won't flow to it. There will be a good amount of machine work involved. You should deff match the bowl dia to the 2.5 guys, don't believe everything you read.

    My idea
    Sti crank with forged pistons and Sti rods

    Build your heads $$$ to match the ej207 flow and duration or just get
    (Less money)Ej207 heads and bowl matched

    Blouch xtr 1.5 turbo

    Or just get Usdm Sti heads for less money and set rev to like 7k
    Pm me I can set you straight with options.
    Last edited by metalmaker12; 09-26-2014 at 09:54 PM.
    818S frame #13 Jdm version 8 ej207

  3. #3
    818 builder metalmaker12's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Exeter R.I
    Posts
    2,834
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1
    To be honest 3k is going to be really hard to achieve, especially the 8k part of it. Decent rods and pistons will run you 500-600 each, and machine work to resurface heads and bowl match along with other possible needed machining will run you around 500-1000 plus. And balancing, although not always really needed is like 100-300 plus depending on what needs to be balanced. (Cp pistons come pretty well balanced btw) most forged rod ends need a balance, your crank might be pretty close. But all this measuring is not free. You can just rebuild your heads with stock valves to oem specs with just the bowl matched, but the 2.5 heads are the better option. What year harness do you have??
    818S frame #13 Jdm version 8 ej207

  4. #4
    Senior Member Tamra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Shelton, CT
    Posts
    1,011
    Post Thanks / Like
    There is a well respected shop fairly close to us that will machine the heads to match the 2.5 block for $350.

    The list I put above, we can do for about 3k, which included resurfacing the heads and balancing the rotating assembly, with us doing the engine assembly. At $350, we will get the heads machined to match the 2.5, as long as we see good reason to.

    We haven't included the turbo in the budget - that will be on top of the motor build. We will be considering the Blouch line, but we will figure that out after the engine. Right now we just want to get the engine figured out.

    You seem to be recommending against the long rod, destroked hybrid option we listed. That is the list that a tuner/engine builder gave us as recommended to get to a higher than stock rev limit, with the exception of him recommending the 2.5 heads whereas we want to run the 2.0's (we have a 2002 harness). Considering it is within our budget (and if we were to get the heads machined) would you still recommend something different?

  5. #5
    FlatironsTuning's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Boulder Colorado
    Posts
    39
    Post Thanks / Like
    First, I will tell you that you can make good power with the EJ205 heads, and getting to 350 with them will not be a problem with the proper turbo. Looking at your list, something that is missing are cams. If you are going to rev the engine higher, and want to make power up top, a longer duration cam will be very helpful with this. Some minor port work on the heads as mentioned would not be a bad idea either.

    Backing up, you can make 300 - 350 whp reliably on a stock EJ257 block with a good tune and good set-up. So I suppose one question would be why do you want to rev higher. Increasing the rpm increases the complexity of the build and increases the chances of something failing the higher you want to push that limit.

    Are you trying to make the same power with less torque to save the 5MT? Or are you thinking of reducing shifts by being able to rev the engine more? There definitely could be some advantages, but you have to weigh them against budget, etc.

    Also, turbo selection will be a big part of hitting your goal as well, and that decision will be related to whether you can do cams, port work on the heads, etc. You may want to start adding that to your calculations sooner rather than later.

    Hope that helps!
    www.flatironstuning.com

    303.402.5142

    Your source for any Subaru parts that you may need to build your 818 from engine parts to gear sets, etc. We have what you need.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Tamra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Shelton, CT
    Posts
    1,011
    Post Thanks / Like
    We are mostly concerned with reducing shifts (avoid 3rd at 65 to 75mph only to have to shift right back to 2nd, thus losing tenths for every shift) on the autox course. We are fine if the power drops off up high, we just primarily don't want the engine to go "bang" and to be able to shift less. S2000's are usually bouncing off the redline in 2nd in a section of some of the courses we run. Considering we are not worried about power up high, do you still consider the cams a necessity?

    As for the turbos, we currently have a VF22 which has acceptable axial play, but isn't factory fresh. We will likely start new, and the primary ones on our list right now are the Borg Warner S200SX or possibly one of the Blouch 1.5xtr models.

    We checked the heads tonight (cleaned up around the spark plug hole) and they actually look very good - no cracking present. We also split the case on the short block. It has ACL bearings (we'll be starting fresh regardless) so it has been opened up at some point. Everything looks pretty good though.

  7. #7
    818 builder metalmaker12's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Exeter R.I
    Posts
    2,834
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    1
    So a motor build and turbo for 3k??
    818S frame #13 Jdm version 8 ej207

  8. #8
    Senior Member Tamra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Shelton, CT
    Posts
    1,011
    Post Thanks / Like
    No, just the motor. Turbo is tbd and will be in addition. We can do the parts listed in post 1 plus the head work for just under 3.5k. We already have some of the supporting mods, such as the intake, ebc, etc. and will just be buying the internals and the killer b pickup.

  9. #9
    fasterer and furiouser longislandwrx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Long Island
    Posts
    2,540
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    6
    My opinion. too much. for those power goals you don't need rods, stick with the 2.5 especially if your crank is still good. new pistons, and a good balance and assembly. 7400-7800rpm should be no issue.

    If you really want 8000, as others have suggested, I think you are better putting that rod and crank money into balancing, and additonal headwork. although your turbo will be out of breathing room by then as well.

    Destroking is not a good fit for you. you'll need a big turbo, or you are likely to overspin it, something like a GTX3582R will eat up your budget.

    I know guys with hybrids with and without machine work, you can do it. but since you are already breaking down the heads, why not pay the 400 and have them machined.

    you have to ask yourself, are you trying to be competitive or trying to have fun? Then readjust goals and budget as needed.

    here's where I would start
    Have EQ tuning inspect and machine your heads for the 2.5l block ~400 and do a valve job which will cost $500, but that includes disassembly cleaning and reassembly. so ~900 out the door
    A set of drop in pistons. ~650, and have your rotating assembly balanced ~200

    Add the price of your springs/valves. The rest of your 3000 will probably be eaten up by bucket shims assembly costs and additional machining.

    You will have a great engine at this point that will last you a while and hit your power goals.


    a good read, with some varied opinions.
    http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-Assembly-Cost






    I just reread this and it came across a little jerk like I am 0% trying to be a jerk.
    Last edited by longislandwrx; 09-29-2014 at 10:02 AM.
    A well stocked beverage fridge is the key to any successful project.

  10. #10
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    16
    Post Thanks / Like
    if you really want 8k why not just use a ej205 or 207 you can usually find just a complete ej207 for in that price range and i see them making 350 quite a bit also what kills the ej25 for high rpms is the piston speed a ej20 is just about square at 1.8 (1.75 being ideal) and a piston speed of about 3454 feet per minute at 8000 rpm, where as a ej257 is at 1.6 rod to stroke ratio, and about 4146 fpm at 8000rmp or 3628 fpm at 7000 rpm so as you see the ej205 is much more well suited for high revs compared to the ej257 but on the other hand the ej257 makes much more bottom end torque (which i think is kind of the enemy on such a light car) or you can destroke the ej257 which will shoot the price out of the park as far as your price range goes either way i recommend bowl matching the heads to your block as it will tend to create hot spots imo, and upgrade valve spring in the 205 heads for the high rpm if that is what you want to do

  11. #11
    Senior Member Tamra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Shelton, CT
    Posts
    1,011
    Post Thanks / Like
    I think the budget thing is throwing people off, although we appreciate all of the great options. However, as of this point we want to stick to destroking the hybrid motor.

    Ignoring the cost, would the build list I included for destroking our hybrid engine (smaller 75mm WRX crank and +2mm rods, etc. as listed in post 1) get us to our goals, and are we missing any key components? We aren't too concerned about top end power, so we will likely skip the upgraded cams for now (unless there is another reason I'm not aware of that they need to be upgraded?). We just want to hit 8k rpm without blowing the engine. We will figure out the turbo later.

    We will have the 205 heads machined to match the EJ257 block.

  12. #12
    fasterer and furiouser longislandwrx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Long Island
    Posts
    2,540
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    6
    Yes the turbo will be the deciding factor in your build. When I was on the fence about going with a 2.33 I talked to Micah (homemadewrx) ad nauseum about turbo sizes on a long rod hybrid.

    some of our conversation:

    "The issue with the small turbo on a long rod is that you run well passed the turbos flow range, so you end up running a large wastegate to dump the rest of the energy (hot exhaust). You’re exhaust backpressure will also be climbing. You also run the risk of over spinning the turbo and killing it. If going long rod and aiming for lower power, running a larger turbo and lower pressure would be more advantageous."

    I thought a 2867 or 3071 would be a good match for the 2.33 with low boost and he was still concerned with overspinning it.

    "A GTX3582R would be of the right idea but they really wake up, like most GTX turbos, in the higher pressure ratios..."

    So you've now got a big expensive turbo that you are just barely starting to get into the sweet spot at your power and boost level and then you shut down the party.

    Just putting it out there

    Also, if you are not doing E85 (which you never mentioned) for that hp level, 1000cc's are overkill. a set of 740s I think would be a better match, and arguably easier to tune.

    If running stock manifolds do yourself a favor and get one of these. http://www.eqtuning.com/products.php...=product_xpipe

    maybe they'll cut you a deal since you are doing the machine work there.
    A well stocked beverage fridge is the key to any successful project.

  13. #13
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    16
    Post Thanks / Like
    I also agree with you only need 740 but 1000 will offer for higher HP levels later on also I am confused as to as howbyou can overspin a turbo unless you have some serious wastegate issues
    If it were me just find a good used ej20

  14. #14
    Senior Member Rasmus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Las Vegas, USA
    Posts
    983
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by Tamra View Post
    We aren't too concerned about top end power, so we will likely skip the upgraded cams for now (unless there is another reason I'm not aware of that they need to be upgraded?).
    Upgrading cams are iffy. Especially with some recent reports. Here's the post highlighting why aftermarket cams are iffy. So just run OEM cams for now. BUT, as you start to spin up you should still be worried about valve float. That is, valves (and buckets) jumping off the cam lobs. They'll get to point were the cams are spinning so fast that the stock spring rates won't won't be able to keep the valves in contact. You do not want the valves and buckets crashing back into the lobs or valves kissing your pistons. So consider upgrading the valve springs. Shimless buckets only.

    There's also the "Spec-C" JDM cam shaft. Stage1 aftermarkets cams have a similar profile to the Spec-C. But it was made by Subaru. And Subaru's got the big bucks to make a camshaft correctly.

    Also...

    I did a bit of an analysis concerning a 2.33 build and various turbos a while back.


    It looked at how much air a 2.33 could pump at various RPMs vs. how much air specific turbos could pump. It was only mathematical, not real world, but it would give you a idea of what you might get instead of making a wildass guess.

    I eventually settled on the BorgWarner EFR 7163 with Twinscroll .80 A/R turbine housing and built in waste-gate.
    Last edited by Rasmus; 09-29-2014 at 03:22 PM.
    Fast Cars, Fast Women, Fast Haircuts!

  15. #15
    Senior Member xxguitarist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    389
    Post Thanks / Like
    Longisland,
    93 tune for now. If we find a source for E85, that could change. There doesn't seem to be any in CT, though. Any harm in slightly overkill injectors? We figure that it just leaves room for future increases or E85, and so long as they're fast responding, shouldn't give much tuning trouble.

    Does the average IWG not spill enough pressure to prevent over-spinning? EWG? I can see physically how this would be possible, just had never heard of it.

    Regardless, it can't be any worse than the same RPM on a non-destroke STi motor, since we're only flowing less air for a given RPM... Aprox 8% (2.5/2.3) less, so we can spin at least 8% more.. so if stock is about 7k redline, that's an extra ~600 rpm without having any more exhaust volume.


    Rasmus,

    We'll likely stick with the 205 cams, we don't need to make big power up top. We just want to avoid the bouncing off the redline, upsetting the balance of the car, right as we're coming up to the highest speed portion of the course..

    Fully intend to upgrade valves & springs, as above:
    GSC P-D EJ257 Beehive Valve Springs w/ Titanium Retainer Valvetrain Kit (Use factory spring seats)
    GSC P-D Subaru EJ Series EJ205/EJ207/EJ257 Chrome Polished Intake Valve - 36mm Head (STD) - SET 8
    GSC P-D Subaru EJ series EJ205/EJ207/EJ257 Chrome Polished Exhaust Valve-32mm Head(STD) -SET 8

    We'll check with the company that was providing us with the recommended build as above, as I do believe our buckets are the shimmed variety.
    Would you just go with OEM later model shim-less?

    I'll have a look at the airflow plots later, once I'm home from work.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Rasmus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Las Vegas, USA
    Posts
    983
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by xxguitarist View Post

    We'll check with the company that was providing us with the recommended build as above, as I do believe our buckets are the shimmed variety.
    Would you just go with OEM later model shim-less?
    Shimless all the way. You don't want a shim kicking out and bouncing around in the head's moving parts. Even if you got lucky enough for the shim to miss everything and just work it's way in to the oil pan you'll still have to open the head up and fix the bucket then crack open the oil pan to retrieve the shim.
    Fast Cars, Fast Women, Fast Haircuts!

  17. #17
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    617
    Post Thanks / Like
    Does that really happen? Motorcycles run shim-under-bucket cams at 17K rpm and I've never seen it happen.

  18. #18
    Senior Member Rasmus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Las Vegas, USA
    Posts
    983
    Post Thanks / Like
    Subaru ran shim over bucket not shim under bucket.

    Fast Cars, Fast Women, Fast Haircuts!

  19. #19
    fasterer and furiouser longislandwrx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Long Island
    Posts
    2,540
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    6
    Quote Originally Posted by xxguitarist View Post
    Does the average IWG not spill enough pressure to prevent over-spinning? EWG? I can see physically how this would be possible, just had never heard of it.
    correct. and even a small ewg may not be enough on a long rod setup at high rpm

    Quote Originally Posted by Rasmus View Post
    Shimless all the way. You don't want a shim kicking out and bouncing around in the head's moving parts. Even if you got lucky enough for the shim to miss everything and just work it's way in to the oil pan you'll still have to open the head up and fix the bucket then crack open the oil pan to retrieve the shim.
    agreed, but you'll have to pay to play, at $20 each you do the math. I said shims earlier but I meant these money munchers.

    here's a list of part numbers.

    http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2138455
    A well stocked beverage fridge is the key to any successful project.

  20. #20
    FlatironsTuning's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Boulder Colorado
    Posts
    39
    Post Thanks / Like
    For cams, pick up a pair of single AVCS cams and plug the AVCS holes. They have the same duration as your EJ205 cams, but have 1mm more lift. The phasing with the non-avcs cam gears sets them for higher rpm. If you are going to do the 2.3, that would help the heads flow better up top.

    As for the concern on aftermarket cams, that is something to be aware of, but there is no where near any resolution yet.

    One other thing to think of, as shift point seems to be the main root of your looking at the 2.3 de-stroker, would be to change your final drive. Once you take the AWD out of the equation, it is pretty easy, and that may give you a better set-up overall... It would at least be worth looking at.

    Available options are 4.44, 4.11, 3.9, and 3.7.
    www.flatironstuning.com

    303.402.5142

    Your source for any Subaru parts that you may need to build your 818 from engine parts to gear sets, etc. We have what you need.

  21. #21
    Senior Member Tamra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Shelton, CT
    Posts
    1,011
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thanks everyone for your help! You gave us some great ideas. Although we've decided to stick with the stock cams for now (we will look at this in the future though), the shimless buckets recommendation was great. We will also be looking at turbos now... time to do more research.

    We decided on our engine build plan and purchased the parts today.

    We are going to build the 2.34L destroked short block, built for up to 650whp, but we will be tuning it to around 350whp. 2.0 Heads will have an upgraded valve train. Oiling will be our limiting factor, so we will be running it at 8k rpm max to start, but with oiling upgrades it could hold 10k. We are still deciding on the turbo.

    Fidelis Motorsports is helping us meet our build goals (and budget) and will help us tune the car when we get it going. We will be doing all of the assembly. Larry's Power will be doing the machine work on the heads and balancing the rotating assembly.


    2.34L destroked short block

    -MPS +2mm H Tuff rods
    -JE FSR Pistons
    -75mm WRX crank
    -upgraded Tool Steel Wrist Pins
    -King Race and Main Bearings
    -ARP Subaru EJ Series DOHC Headstuds

    Supporting mods:
    STI oil pan
    Killer B Motorsport Ultimate Oil Pickup
    Killer B Motorsport Oil Baffle Windage Tray
    OEM oil pump
    Partial TGV deletes
    Cobb intake
    Stock headers
    STI catless up-pipe
    Forge full recirc bpv
    Grimmspeed ebcs
    255lph fuel pump
    Gates Racing Timing Belt
    Frozenboost AWIC


    2.0 Chamber Matched Machined Heads
    -Shimless buckets
    -GSC Beehive Valve Springs w/ Titanium Retainer Valvetrain Kit
    -GSC Chrome Polished Intake Valve
    -GSC Chrome Polished Exhaust
    -Injector Dynamics Fuel Injectors Top Feed 1000cc


    Other items:
    ACT StreetLite Flywheel
    South Bend Stage 2 Endurance Clutch
    OBX LSD (upgraded washers/bolts)
    FFR lateral links (to be purchased)
    Stainless steel braided brake lines (to be purchased)
    Racing seats TBD


    Other project creep TBD
    Last edited by Tamra; 10-03-2014 at 06:40 AM.

  22. #22
    fasterer and furiouser longislandwrx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Long Island
    Posts
    2,540
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    6
    Nice build, the 255 might be cutting it close with e85 on you build. unless you have it already.
    I would still recommend the crossover pipe over a bov.

    you are getting a new oem oil pump right? like a 11 or 12mm?



    the stock bov works fine at 24psi+
    A well stocked beverage fridge is the key to any successful project.

  23. #23
    Senior Member xxguitarist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Posts
    389
    Post Thanks / Like
    The car came with both the 255 pump & the Forge BPV. E85 isnt super-available in CT, so we may just do a 93 octane tune.

    Looking into the oil pump options.

    Crossover pipe, headers, etc could depend on the turbo.

  24. #24
    fasterer and furiouser longislandwrx's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Long Island
    Posts
    2,540
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    6
    ok carry on then.
    A well stocked beverage fridge is the key to any successful project.

  25. #25
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    66
    Post Thanks / Like
    Good to see another one of our engine build kits going out to a future satisfied customer. Our team and friends pioneered the long rod setup for these engines for better geometry to help reduce detonation and piston side loading.

    You don't want an 11 or 12mm pump. We sell a 10mm pump that is modified internally to flow more with higher pressure. To do this we relief certain passages, hone and polish high volume areas and alter spring pressure on the bypass.

    Tony

  26. #26
    Senior Member Tamra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Shelton, CT
    Posts
    1,011
    Post Thanks / Like
    Tony, do you know roughly what you guys charge to modify a 10mm pump? We were leaning toward shimming ours but sounds like you might do more than that.

    Our block is off at the machine shop getting bored and honed to 99.75mm. I believe Clint is working on getting our pistons and rods shipped out. We're pretty excited about the build.

    For the high rev builds you guys do, what clearances do you usually target on the bearings?

  27. #27
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Posts
    66
    Post Thanks / Like
    How is your block being machined if you don't have the pistons yet? That's a bad idea. You really need the pistons to properly set piston to wall clearance.

    Our pump is $225. Brand new 10mm pump that has been modified in house by us.

    Our clearances are proprietary to our builds. We have spent thousands of hours engineering and testing different clearances in order to find what is best for different applications. That is why our built blocks are different than any other shops.

    Tony

  28. #28
    Senior Member Tamra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Shelton, CT
    Posts
    1,011
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thanks Tony. Our machine shop is very familiar with the JE FSR pistons and are doing the work to their spec. We will double check that they are within spec, of course.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Stewart Transport

Visit our community sponsor