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Thread: Gary's 818SEx4

  1. #1
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    Gary's 818SEx4

    Hello everyone. I'm from Southern Ontario, Canada, about an hour from Toronto. I hope it's not too early to start this thread. I will be doing something pretty unconventional. 818SEx4 means model S of course. Electric. AWD. I haven't found anyone else doing an AWD yet so, not too much help there. I can't brag about being a racing guy. I've never been on a track. . .other than go-carts and some 1/4 mile fun. I can't even say I'm a Subaru guy. I do think they are awesome cars, but I've never owned one and know very little about them. I'm starting to learn from reading on this site though. My mechanical skills are pretty good though. I've rebuilt just about everything on a car at least once. . . somethings many times. lol. Not so much transmissions, but plenty of engine jobs and the rest. I'll be doing most of this myself I expect, although I do have an offer from someone to help. I tend to do all my projects solo for some reason. I'm sure I will have plenty of questions and please jump in to offer suggestions, I'm not offended easily. I'm still learning every day. I've been involved with the electric thing for a number of years now (not nearly as long as Bob n Cincy). I've done several builds, all with DC series wound motors so far. I've done 9", 11" and 13" motors. Mated to standard transmissions, clutchless, and direct drive/overdrive versions. I also own and drive a Chevy Volt and have almost 100,000 km on it now. It is AC drive of course. I've also messed with a lot of different batteries over the years. Testing and building packs. I hope I don't run into any major snags.
    My background is Welding Engineering and I am also a Journeyman Welder. I work for Magna, in the Cosma group, automotive factory (we actually make most of the Volt under body). I spent many years working in a frame plant and have a fair bit of experience with frame prototyping, welding and automation.

    As for the car, I picked it up already.
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    I was surprised and glad to get one of the first red bodies. I just read about it a week before I went. I asked but they figured I would probably get white.

    I picked up my donor just yesterday. Its a 2004 Impreza Sport. I don't need the motor or transmission, so I waited until I found one with major mechanical problems which equals a lower price. $900 ducats. I should have been able to get one for 500 or 600 but oh well, I couldn't wait any longer. Unfortunately, I don't have anything started yet to show.

    Us Canadians must buy a "starter kit" meaning not complete and source some of the components through a third party. (Dont ask) Anyways, my "completion kit" is en route so I will be able to get started soon. Also, I got my frame uncoated, since I will be doing major mods to the front and some to the rear also. I plan to actually fit all the suspension, hubs etc before they are cleaned up in order to flesh out my frame mods and motor mounts etc. Then I will finish weld, disassemble and get coated while I clean up the suspension parts.
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    Senior Member AZPete's Avatar
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    Welcome to the madness, Gary. In your posts about batteries I'm stumbling to understand what you are talking about so you must know a lot about the things, though I think electricity is all bogus because I can't see it. And, you were smart enough to wear a red shirt to pick up your red 818.
    818S/C : Chassis #25 with 06 WRX 2.5 turbo, ABS, cruise, PS, A/C, Apple CarPlay, rear camera, power windows & locks, leather & other complexities. Sold 10/19 with 5,800 miles.
    Mk3 Roadster #6228 4.6L, T45, IRS, PS, PB, ABS, Cruise, Koni's, 17" Halibrands, red w/ silver - 9K miles then sold @ Barrett-Jackson Jan 2011 (got back cash spent).

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    Thank you Pete. Yes, if I can't see it . . . it must not be there. Then again, it does bite. . . hard.

    I have all my major components except the battery for this car. I have it pretty much narrowed down though. The performance should be pretty good. I have a chart, but I must upload from my other computer.
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    Last edited by Gary Livingston; 10-04-2014 at 05:47 PM.

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    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Too bad you didn't start 6 months earlier, I always dreamed of an electric AWD 818, but since no one was close to that and with enough power (in 400whp range, which is what, 300-350kw?) I decided to ditch that idea and went another route, still less traveled lolll, but not my preferred idea.

    I'll keep an eye on your build. Make it good, make it powerful, make it stable, make it reliable, make it beautiful, hell make it like you like!
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
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    I converted Gary's chart to horsepower. You'll be a quite a bit short of 400 with any of those motors.



    BTW, the blue one has a very unusual power output curve.

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    Thanks Frank. I'll do my best.

    Jaime, yes. . . but even though a hp is a hp is a hp, with electric hp, it seems that when comparing to ICE, it's often about half for the same performance. This is due to the torque characteristic, which is really what moves the car. ICE's are typically rated at peak HP and Torque which occurs somewhere through the rpm range. Electric tends to be max from zero and extends pretty flat to some point where CEMF starts to carve it back. My electric motors are rated at 100kw each which is about 134hp so, 268 hp total.. . which is what your graph shows. The torque numbers though, tell a different story. To compete with 442 lb-ft with an ICE, it would require much more peak (rated hp). Some of you would know better than I what that may be. Probably north of 500, I would think?

    The blue one is the HPEV 35x2 which is what Eric used in his 33Machine. Nice set up also.

    So, I thought I should mention, my Borg Warner transmissions a a single speed 6.54:1 ratio. So, thats 2,890 lb-ft torque available to the wheels.
    Last edited by Gary Livingston; 10-05-2014 at 07:15 AM. Reason: added last two notes

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    BTW, how do I get my picture posts to show up large like Jaime's???

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    Use a third party image hosting service like PhotoBucket. When you add the image to the post, make sure to uncheck "Retrieve remote file and reference locally".

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    Thanks Jaime!!
    Does it cost anything to use Photobucket?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Livingston View Post
    To compete with 442 lb-ft with an ICE, it would require much more peak (rated hp). Some of you would know better than I what that may be. Probably north of 500, I would think?
    I'm not so convinced about that now that I've seen it laid out as a horsepower to RPM graph. You can get 2890 to the rear wheel from a 268HP ICE pretty easily. Here's my math:

    First, the engine. Here is a plot of a 2015 WRX, which makes about 268HP. It's the lower of the three:

    It make about 260ft-lbs of torque at 4200 rpm.
    My TY754VBAAA transmission has a 3.166 first gear reduction ratio, so that's 823.16 ft-lbs at the output shaft.
    It has a 4.444 final drive, so that makes about 3650 ft-lbs at the wheel.
    At 20% clutch slip, you get right around your 2890 to the wheel.

    So, to match a 268HP electric with a 268HP ICE right off the line, just launch at 4200 rpm and be good with the clutch. From that point forward, you'll never be under 4200 rpm, so the "torque advantage" of the electric will never exist.

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    Photobucket is free, but you get ads. For a couple dollars a month you can eliminate ads and not worry about bandwidth. With the free account, there is always the possibility that if an image of your becomes really popular, Photobucket will show an "over bandwidth" image instead of yousr for the rest of the month. It's never happened to me from posting on this site.

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    Good luck Gary, Look forward to see the end result.

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    Senior Member Kalstar's Avatar
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    I can't wait. I soooooooo wanted to go this route but the path less traveled had to many prickers or me. I will be watching close.

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    OK. Perhaps. Just remember that the ICE only possesses these numbers at peak... they are not sustained. Also, there is no shift loss timing. There have been quite a few comparisons made over the years and it seems to hold pretty true. Have you ever rode in an electric performance car? It's pretty different. Traction is another thing of course. I didn't mention this before, but I am a Regional Director for NEDRA. I can't brag about being a big drag racer, but I've been in the community for a few years. The electrics are starting to make some impressive numbers for what they are. Guys like John Metric running low 9's with two 10 hp (rated continuous) DC series wound motors in a Miata. Also Larry McBride riding the Rocket bike to a plus 200mph quarter at 7 seconds. lol. The first 60ft is pretty crazy.

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    I'm actually surprised to hear this from you and Frank. I never imagined anyone would want to go down my crazy path. It's encouraging for me.. I have many reasons to be in the electric world, not all of them shared by the average guy. This the future.
    As for straight performance, I actually own all of the components to make this 818 a 9 second 1/4 mile car, other than the specific battery. But I know what that is and how to build it also. I chose the AC route as it is much more refined and able to sustain higher average hp output due to water cooling and efficiency. My motors are the same ones used in the Powerphase 145, just different controllers. I hope to eventually figure out how to take advantage of the motors peak capability for short durations. The motors could do 290kw now and likely peak to well over 350 combined, I think. Bob's Siemens motor has a very similar curve to one of my PP100 motors, in fact it is almost exactly the same. He will be peaking it much higher though with his home made controller. This is what I am referring to..

    Program-ability is another sweet advantage. I can simply program the regen rate of front and rear, the acceleration slew rate for traction control etc, and a plethora of other parameters. How about a valet mode (not that I would loan this thing out. . .) to limit power. . . that sort of thing.

    Cheers,

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    Thanks Lumpy. I appreciate that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Livingston View Post
    The electrics are starting to make some impressive numbers for what they are. Guys like John Metric running low 9's with two 10 hp (rated continuous) DC series wound motors in a Miata. Also Larry McBride riding the Rocket bike to a plus 200mph quarter at 7 seconds. lol. The first 60ft is pretty crazy.
    I know electrics are fast. However, my opinion is that they are fast because the second part of the power curve is constant HP. With a nice big 5000 rpm zone of constant horsepower, you can shift fewer times.

    It's torque at the axle that matters. If you do the math you'll see that at a given wheel speed, torque at the axle is directly proportional to powerplant horsepower (regardless of drivetrain) and has no fixed relationship to powerplant torque.

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    I agree that it is torque at the axles that matters. They are fast because of the constant, flat torque from zero up to some number depending on the motor. . . as compared to ICE where the torque takes some time to come on. In the Electric world, we call it the EV grin. Conversely, they are often reeled back in closer to the end of the 1/4 mile. It's this incredible feeling that is hard to describe. Anyways, this isn't the place to beat it to death.
    There are several examples of electric cars with half the horsepower having acceleration events as fast or faster than 1000 hp Bugatti Veyrons. . .

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    Senior Member riptide motorsport's Avatar
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    Please please post a detailed build thread, I'm an idiot who would love the copy your build. I don't have the knowledge and would .,love to copy you.....many thanks. Steven.
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    Quote Originally Posted by riptide motorsport View Post
    Please please post a detailed build thread, I'm an idiot who would love the copy your build. I don't have the knowledge and would .,love to copy you.....many thanks. Steven.
    Thanks Steven. I will try and be specific. If there is something I glossed over, please ask. Suggestions are welcome also. . . as I will have quite a few myself, I'm sure. I will be doing some disassembly soon and also some first pass assembly of the spindles and control arms. This will all be in an effort to flesh out the frame mods required to mount the motor and achieve drive capability in the front end, which should prove to be rather challenging.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Gary, I am probably way ahead in my thinking (as a pioneer), but if someday you can come up with an electric solution up front for those with a petrol engine so that they can add your solution to the front of their 818, count me down to buy your solution. Like I said, I am waaaaaaaaaayy ahead of time right now, but let's see how things move on for you.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    Gary, I am probably way ahead in my thinking (as a pioneer), but if someday you can come up with an electric solution up front for those with a petrol engine so that they can add your solution to the front of their 818, count me down to buy your solution. Like I said, I am waaaaaaaaaayy ahead of time right now, but let's see how things move on for you.
    Frank, that's really what I am doing now. I have two separate drive systems. The one in the back could be ICE powered or Electric, doesn't matter. It would add some weight to the car though obviously. It would depend how much power and how much electric range you would want.

  24. #24
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Livingston View Post
    It would depend how much power and how much electric range you would want.
    Enough to smoke the McLaren that lives close by. loll Joking, I'm not aiming for that.

    Need space for the batteries as well. Well then I'll keep a closer look at your front end solution once it grows. No mock-up or drawings of it, by any chance? Just to make us drool for a while.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
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    I received my "completion kit" from Breeze (Thanks Mark!) and the few items I was missing from FFR today. So I assembled the front upper ball joints and installed the control arms. I must fit all off the suspension and drive components first. . . position the motor and egear drive, do some fabrication. Repeat the process in the rear but it will be a cake walk back there. Then disassemble everything and get things painted.
    I wish I had the CAD model of the frame, then I could do a nice design mod in SolidWorks. I know EVWest modeled it also when they did Eric's car. I could measure and recreate it but that's a ton of work, that I am not really too keen on. I'm not that fast on SolidWorks since I don't use it everyday.
    The easiest way to maintain the geometry is to fab up what you need in addition to what exists, with some planning for distortion control,. . . then cut out what is in the way. Since I won't be doing any FEA analysis, it will be slightly over designed.
    The front shock mount will have to move and a good chunk of the main upright will have to get excised. Several hours of trials, fitment, shifting and scratching my thick head. . . I'm pretty sure most of the drive will have to sit forward of the cross car wheel line. I was hoping that I could tuck it closer to the firewall. . . but it doesn't appear that way. I won't know for sure until I get some assembly work done up there. Don't worry, I will take some pictures.

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    What's the thinking regarding the sway bar that comes from the rear of the donor and goes in the front of 818? I see some folks not using it and even removing the bracketry. . I think Rasmus did this for weight savings. Are the folks who remove it, using anything in it's place for weight transfer? I may need the space. . . will have to see. Sway bars may be mounted in different locations I believe as long as the links are correct and bar orientation is maintained.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    Well then I'll keep a closer look at your front end solution once it grows. No mock-up or drawings of it, by any chance? Just to make us drool for a while.
    Here are a few shots of mucking around to see how things could fit. Please excuse the ugly, rusty components. This first pass is just for fitment and fleshing out the general arrangement. I knew that I would have to move the shock mounting. . . probably rearwards, and it looks now to be the case. If I am lucky, I will just move the forward top bracket the same distance aft of the other and build a LCA mount slightly and partially off the side of it. As for the motor gearbox. I wanted so desperately to get this unit tucked closer to the firewall . . . but I don't think that is going to happen. I believe this CV joint has a design limit of 50 degrees (I think it is a "fixed ball UF joint", although it could be the AC version at 47 degrees). Anyways, I can get within this number without cutting things up too much. . . but I'm leaning towards some surgery to get it closer to 35. . . I think I can hit this number. Here are a few pics...
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    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    How much does the front engine weigh? It looks very huge and heavy.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

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    ya. . . I actually weighed mine a while ago and it was just Under 100 I think. . . but that must be with the adapter and ccoupler, something like that. The motor itself is about 9" long, and the end cap adds another inch and half or so. It's just over 11" in diameter. I think it looks large because of the space I am trying to stuff it into. and the angle of the shot maybe. It is rather tight in there. I started cutting and welding already. yikes... lol Here is a shot with it almost in it's final resting place....

    Darn, they keep coming out 90 degrees rotated. I opened with another app and they look correct., but when I upload here they are rotated.. argh..
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    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Lighter than I thought, keep it rolling Gary. You seem to be moving pretty fast so far, I like that.

    The axles will be angled backwards wrt the "differential" (or whatever stands place of the diff)?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    The axles will be angled backwards wrt the "differential" (or whatever stands place of the diff)?
    Yes, that's correct. I did have it further to the rear and the axle was straight out.. . . but the rest of the space did not work out for the motor/egear drive...

    Oh, just to clarify, the 35 or so degrees I'm shooting for is at full steering lock. It's not on much of an angle with the wheels straight.
    Last edited by Gary Livingston; 10-20-2014 at 07:10 PM.

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    I will be mounting the steering rack lower to gain a little clearance. Also, it looks like I will probably use this steering rack I kept from the Coda Car. It's new, the car had only had 4 miles on it. It's pretty light also being made for an electric car. It was used with electric power assist in the Coda . . . I do have that unit also, but I don't think I will be using it. The cools thing is that the overall length without the tie rod ends is the same. Also, the Subaru tie rod ends screw right on.
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    Any idea what the Coda rack has for a ratio?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aero STI View Post
    Any idea what the Coda rack has for a ratio?
    Thought I had better log in o answer this just in case. I discovered last night that the Coda rack won't work. The pinion is on the opposite side of the rack so when you turn the steering to the right, the wheels turn left. Yep. Damit I forgot, or didn't take note I guess when removing the rack from the Coda, the tie rods must have connected aft of the spindles instead of in front. Argh.

    Another chance to fall on my sword. At least I discovered it before too much investment of time.

  36. #36
    Senior Member billjr212's Avatar
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    Looking good. Can't wait to watch this progress. Makes me wonder about the potential of an 818 with the WRX motor driving the rears and a small electric motor driving the front wheels - sort of like a mini hybrid supercar. All in time, I suppose...

    Edit: haha, just reread and saw posts 22 and 23 discussing this very thing.

  37. #37
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    90% done front frame mods.

    Still have some details up front, but the main issues are all worked out. Few more braces to install. Steering rack has a new home. Had to clear some room for the drive shafts. Will need to make new drive shafts, looks like all 4 will be different length.
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  38. #38
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Quite a lot of frame mods, but nicely done!!

    I see you already cut the threads on the upper A-arms?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  39. #39
    818 builder metalmaker12's Avatar
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    Wow this is cool man. If I had the extra cake I would build one too.
    818S frame #13 Jdm version 8 ej207

  40. #40
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    Gary
    Are you using the same motor and gear in the rear?
    PS: I have some new axles that will match your gear box side.(electric transit connect axles)
    Bob
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 12-14-2014 at 11:10 PM.
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
    My Electric Supercar Build X21 (on hold until winter) http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...e-Build-Thread

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