Gary's 818SEx4

[Gary Livingston]

Quite a lot of frame mods, but nicely done!!

I see you already cut the threads on the upper A-arms?

Thanks Frank. I didn't cut any threads yet although not everything is tightened up.

[Gary Livingston]

Gary
Are you using the same motor and gear in the rear?
PS: I have some new axles that will match your gear box side.(electric transit connect axles)
Bob

Hey Bob,
Yes, same setup In the back. I'll keep that in mind. I did get 4 drive shafts from the Coda cars and I have the 4 Subaru shafts plus the two shafts that com in the kit.
What I need to do is use the Coda cans I the inboard ends, the Subaru outers and get custom shafts made to connect them. The splines aren't the same and the spider bearing clusters from the Subie don fit the inner cans from the Coda. Argh. It's all doable. Just have to get custom shafts made. (For length and splines)

[rtz]

This place can make up any axles you need: http://www.driveshaftshop.com/axle-measurement

[Gary Livingston]

This place can make up any axles you need: http://www.driveshaftshop.com/axle-measurement

Hey thanks a lot rtz! I have a local shop that can do this but he's pricey. I think this will be a cheaper option!

Cheers

[ehansen007]

Man, this is insane. I can't wait to see it in motion. Are you able to torque vector? Shoot me a PM. I'd love to hear more. I just got done setting up regen on braking with the proportional valve setup and it's like having power brakes.

[Gary Livingston]

Man, this is insane. I can't wait to see it in motion. Are you able to torque vector? Shoot me a PM. I'd love to hear more. I just got done setting up regen on braking with the proportional valve setup and it's like having power brakes.

Hey Eric! Thanks man. I will have the ability to torque vector between front and rear but not each wheel.
Cool, ya that is actually a hydraulic pressure transducer which senses hydraulic pressure and outputs a variable electrical signal which your controller interprets into regen intensity ... Which is programmable as you know. (For benefit of other readers). This is what I was asking u about in your thread some months back.
Cheers!

[ehansen007]

That's right. The transducer. It's hooked into the proportioning valve. Works great. It's amazing how many parameters you can tune with the Curtis.

[Gary Livingston]

That's right. The transducer. It's hooked into the proportioning valve. Works great. It's amazing how many parameters you can tune with the Curtis.

Eric, the Curtis HPEV AC systems are just excellent drive packages. Curtis is a mature controller and does offer a plethora of info and setting. Have you seen the EVIC CAN display recently unveiled. The screens are already done for Curtis I believe in the non-touch screen version. . . with more on the way. JAck Rickard intro'd it on EVTV on last week's video. Nice dedicated HMI i'd say. I'll be customizing one of these for my ride and you would be interested by it I'm sure. You could integrate the JLD505 into also for some additional battery info. Take a look.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...K1yzxHY#t=8548

[Gary Livingston]

I have a bunch of stuff I won't be needing in this kit also. I will have to make up a list. One thing for sure is the Turbo kit if anyone needs it. Bunch of other stuff like the fuel filler tube and I don't know what else right now. I'll probably just pay it fwd with a lot of the stuff. As long as I know it's needed. When I was ateenager, I had a guy ask me for some seats I had. I gave them to him only later to find out he sold them the same day. lol that was not kewl....lol

[rtz]

I'm sure you all have seen it; but here is a Curtis tuned to a reworked off the shelf motor: http://ivanbennett.com/forum/index.php?topic=6.0

[Gary Livingston]

Thought I would throw up some of the mod pics

[Gary Livingston]

I have to move the front coil overs aft to allow room for the drive axles up here. I will leave the top aft part of the mount and move the fwd one the same distance (1.5") behind it


Not sure why I am having trouble loading pics from photo bucket...... I did it before but not working now... What am I missing? Well, I got one to upload and that's it. The rest are linked below.... argh...

http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1419702118
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1419702118
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1419702118
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/...ps78bbdc64.jpg
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1419702118
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1419702118

Now to find a home for the lower bracket

Test location. . .http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1419702118
Nope that won't work...
This works....
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1419702118

Clearance on both extremes of turning....

http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1419702118
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/...g?t=1419702118
http://i1368.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0140dabb.jpg

Of course I still need to brace up the lower mount bracket.

[metalmaker12]

That works, looking good man, I wanna see this thing first hand. My 818 is almost back together, and this is making me want to build something like this one day.

[Gary Livingston]

Thanks man. I was starting to wonder if anyone was getting anything out of my messed up iPhone pics and posts.

What did you have your 818 apart for? Sorry I haven't been keeping up with the threads.

[Scargo]

Nice work and really nice MIG welding. Are you making your own brackets? This is a dilemma I face. I know Allstar, Speedway and others offer some but I long for the ability to farm out brackets to a fab shop that can laser or waterjet cut them just as I need them. I used to do a tad of CAD but that was a long time ago and I am reluctant to put the time, money and energy into that right now when I could easily hand them a piece of cardboard or pencil drawing that represents the part. Any advice as to what direction I should go? I don't have anything to bend with either, except the good 'ol vise.

[Gary Livingston]

Nice work and really nice MIG welding. Are you making your own brackets? This is a dilemma I face. I know Allstar, Speedway and others offer some but I long for the ability to farm out brackets to a fab shop that can laser or waterjet cut them just as I need them. I used to do a tad of CAD but that was a long time ago and I am reluctant to put the time, money and energy into that right now when I could easily hand them a piece of cardboard or pencil drawing that represents the part. Any advice as to what direction I should go? I don't have anything to bend with either, except the good 'ol vise.

Thanks Sargo. Yeah, I just make my own typically. That flat piece for the shock mount was done with a zip wheel on an angle grinder from flat stock. The outer shape was traced. I use transfer punches a lot for getting holes right if it's from another piece. I did that in this case from the piece I cut off. Then I just drilled the holes on a drill press. There is very little you can't make with these methods. There are shops that do custom laser cutting, but it's expensive for what you get. . .when u can just make most things in a few minutes. Show me an example of something you need to make. . .that you don't think you can, and we can discuss how you may be able to.

[metalmaker12]

Thanks man. I was starting to wonder if anyone was getting anything out of my messed up iPhone pics and posts.

What did you have your 818 apart for? Sorry I haven't been keeping up with the threads.

Had a bad piston and head gasket issue do to heat soak and pre detnonation.

[Gary Livingston]

Had a bad piston and head gasket issue do to heat soak and pre detnonation.

Ooops. Was the ignition timing too much advanced? Or perhaps compression a bit high for the octane rating of the fuel?

[Gary Livingston]

and same on the RH side....

[Gary Livingston]

Removed the rear hubs (in -28C wind chill!) and installed for mock up. Rear motor and EGear drive sitting close to home location.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Gary
Your rear motor set up is similar to mine.
See
http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post134077

I have some extra axles for the BW gear box.
Bob

[Gary Livingston]

Hey Bob, yes, I remember that pic. . or one like it. How is your build going?? HAve you been working on it?

Regards,
Gary

[Speedy G]

How did I miss your build!??! Nice one! Mmmm... you're tempting me. I thought about 4wd but wasn't sure what to do about the front suspension, and I can't weld like you. Nice, very nice welds. The space is there for the motor, but now I'm wondering where you'll be fitting the batteries. My motors go one on top of the other so there's less "floor" space taken up. From the looks of it, you'll probably put them behind the seat (24), in front of the rear motor (24 x 2 levels), 12 in the center channel, and maybe another 9 in front? That's around 93. How many are you thinking? What types, A123s?

Those motors are torque monsters. Did you get the 6.5:1 ratio? That would make your top speed somewhere around 150kph or 90mph. With all that torque, highway driving through traffic will be like cutting through butta (Boston accent), 1/8 miles will be impossible to beat.

Interesting take on the regen transducer. I might copy the idea. Your advantage is that you can probably do dual regen, which might be easier to bias.

[Speedy G]

double post, sorry

[Gary Livingston]

How did I miss your build!??! Nice one! Mmmm... you're tempting me. I thought about 4wd but wasn't sure what to do about the front suspension, and I can't weld like you. Nice, very nice welds. The space is there for the motor, but now I'm wondering where you'll be fitting the batteries. My motors go one on top of the other so there's less "floor" space taken up. From the looks of it, you'll probably put them behind the seat (24), in front of the rear motor (24 x 2 levels), 12 in the center channel, and maybe another 9 in front? That's around 93. How many are you thinking? What types, A123s?

Those motors are torque monsters. Did you get the 6.5:1 ratio? That would make your top speed somewhere around 150kph or 90mph. With all that torque, highway driving through traffic will be like cutting through butta (Boston accent), 1/8 miles will be impossible to beat.

Interesting take on the regen transducer. I might copy the idea. Your advantage is that you can probably do dual regen, which might be easier to bias.

Hey Speedy. Thanks man.
On my handheld here so forgive me if I miss something. Hopefully I won't loose it before saving! It looks like you are calculating space by assuming those 100 ah CALBs. I won't be using those. Problem there is getting a high enough C rate. That's what drove you to 100ah cells since they are only rated at 3c continuous and 10 c pulse. This is not a high performance battery although a great range battery. I haven't decided yet although I have it down to one of three options. A 20c 60ah cell, a 30c 45ah cell or a combo pack using my A123 cylindricals that are 60c pulse. All of those options afford a workable solution for battery space even though the pack number and voltage would change slightly depending on option.

Top speed is a decision for a programming limit more than anything. They publish 7700 rpm I think but these motors, like yours will do 12000. That is also the limit on the egear drive. At 6.54:1 and a 24" tire, that is 210kph or something like hat. IIRC. There are about 5 different gear ratios available for this transmission I believe.

While these drive systems are rated at 100kw each, UQM uses the same motor on the Powerphase 135 (maybe even 145, Not sure) so, by changing inverters and running entirely within motor specs there is another 100hp to be had I think. Not that I would pursue it but hey... Who knows right. ? Lol

The transducer regen works well.

[Speedy G]

I'd be a little cautious on turning this to 12,000. At least somehow check the permanent magnets in the rotor are not surface mount. There's really no other reason not to drive it to 10,000 RPM except maybe balancing. My motors are induction motors which is why they can turn higher rpms easier and why you have 94% efficiency and I have 91%.

I found the specs for both ratings btw. Half of your max torque is at 6500 which is where people usually draw the line, but a gas engine in 5th gear probably has 1/4 of the wheel torque from 1st gear so why not drive it way out there. Your max efficiency is at 5500 RPM which is best for highway driving.

I would think the difference in 100kW vs 135kW is just voltage or it's just held there artificially by pwm programming. Both drives are limited at 400A, so it can't be that. Quick math tells you 250V are needed for 100kW and 337.5V are needed for 135kW. The thing is that if you drive your egear with the 135kW motor you may break it, but then again, it's German so it might be able to take 3 x rated torque. In any case, it's an insane build, so glad you're doing it!

[Gary Livingston]

Hey Thanks Speedy. Yes, you are probably right about the RPM. To be honest, I haven't spent much time considering top speed and rpm. I have little desire or need for it. PMAC motors have some great advantages regarding power density and efficiency. . . high rpm isn't really one of them. I've studied the efficiency maps often. Max motor speed for full performance is rated at 7700 rpm. There is likely a difference in current for the 135. . . even though it doesn't say it on some docs. I found controller drawings indicating 600 amps for the 135 and even 500 amps for the 100. Not sure.

Transmissions are a challenge for any electric application. They are designed for the characteristics of an ICE. Many torque maps f0r ICE's don't even start until 1500 rpm. They peak and fall as rpm rises. Electrics have stall torques at max as you know. Characteristics can be changed in milliseconds. Thing break easily under such quick changing loads. I have a 3000 amp Shiva controller in my truck and was running a 13" DC series wound motor. I twisted a 4" larger truck drive shaft off right at the u-joint one day when I was leaving a speed shop and attempting to show off. Direct drive ratio.... no gear reduction. Not kewl. That system would put out something over 2000 ft-lbs right out of the motor. . . no gear box required. I run direct drive with a Gear Vendors OD plus a Lenco reverser in front of it.
I was tempted to put this system in the 818. hahahah for what? Would be ridiculous. That controller can do 1.2 MW. . .ya, mega watts. lmao....

That truck is too heavy and what got me to go the other extreme. Light and traction. This is one advantage for the Egear drive. You mentioned whether it would hold the 135 ouput. I don't know, but I do know that I have two of them driving one light car. Pretty tough to load them too hard for too long. One of them was in a car weighing twice as much.

Even Tesla gave up on the 2 speed gearbox they pursued for so long and failed with on several occasions with more than one vendor. Bob has seen plenty of trannys break I'm sure. Erik already broke his, on an AC build. I'm a bit worried about Nick putting that 5 speed behind his 11" DC motor, really thinking he doesn't need a trans . . or maybe just two gears. I've seen the heaviest clutches smoked off behind twin 9" motors in an electric Porsche. Another strange one. . I've seen quite a few electric 1/4 mile runners change differential gears to higher ratio and not loose any 60' times. Some even quicker.

Anyways. It's a path with comparatively few travelers. Not like ICE. Sometime I feel rather strange on this forum. . . like the ugly cousin syndrome. lol Ya, it's an 818. But motorheads like the rumble, and the smell of fuel and vibration and deafening roar of power translating to the asphalt. . . I don't even blame them. I was one. Still am some days. We all have reasons for what we do. Mine likely different than yours. . and the next fellow. But we all do have something pretty special in common in this bit of cyberspace at least. Build-on......

[Speedy G]

Nice rant! You may laugh at the next sentence. I actually tried to BUY a 2.18:1 shorty powerglide from a very reputable dragster supplier. Yeah, they build them for 3000hp. Here's what they said after I explained my idea of going direct coupled, in other words, no torque converter:

Our transmissions with that gear are only for race only vehicles, we have never driven anything like that on the street and have no idea on the lifespan of them. Most race cars have converters that absorb the “hit” on the transmission and flash in the 5000 range so we here do not like to build transmission for things other than what they were designed for , a race car.

He wouldn't give me a warranty or even sell it to me! I told him I was only pushing 330ft lbs of torque!!! Yeah I'm aware of the tranny killer tendencies these motors have. I'm assuming as you say that it's the dynamic load that kills the trannies. I'll be pulling a beamer trick. The clutch in my beamer has a maximum engagement speed so power shifts don't kill the tranny. One of the typical mods is to remove the engagement delay.

What I'm doing is tapering the control signal (i.e. gas pedal signal) so it doesn't hit so hard. I'll have different control programs, but I'm very aware that dynamic loads kill trannies. Although control is supposedly my last stage, the gas pedal signal control is something I'm already working on.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob has seen plenty of trannys break ..

Yes I have, But you might be surprised at the reason why ev transmission break.

Electric motors with big rotors have much higher inertia than ICE engines. Electric motor also don't have back pressure to slow the speed down during shifting. During shifting the synchronizers have to work much harder to speed match before engagement. The synchronizer wear out quickly and the driver starts jamming into gear. When it engages without speed match torque spike/broken teeth.

Shifting like grandma pushing the clutch complete in and not releasing until after engagement will save the transmission. Run the softest clutch you can get by with.

Shifting an EV with no clutch is a recipe for disaster. Same as above only worse.

EV with the same torque as ICE are actually easier on gears. Power out of an ICE is pulse when each cylinder fires. Every 1/2 rotation on a 4 cylinder. That's why you have springs in you clutch disk. Electric motors put out smooth torque. Actually easier on the gears.

Bob

[Speedy G]

Mmm... I'm glad you guys have more experience than I do. I don't doubt you've broken trannies and synchros, but there's one thing I don't understand. When you shift, the clutch is disengaged so the only inertia the synchros have to deal with are the inertia of the tranny shafts themselves and the clutch disc. That's pretty much what the synchros were made for. The motor inertia comes in when you engage the clutch and the shock of the engagement gets felt by the already engaged gears all the way to the wheels (the chirp on a powershift). I agree that grannyshifting will save the tranny, but I'm not sure there's much difference to the synchros, as long as you disengage completely and reengage after shifting.

You're also right that the synchros cannot take on the inertia of the electric motors (or the gas motor for that matter), they were only meant to rev match to the inertia of the input shaft plus the clutch disc and pressure plate.

What I'm thinking of doing is rev matching using 2 encoders already in the system to control the shifts. The first encoder is in the motor, the second is in the tranny. The one in the tranny can be the stock VSS, and it can help me determine the speed of the output shaft. So.... those are the sensors, and are already naturally installed in their proper place. Let's say the car is coasting at 120kph (~1000rpm of the rear axle w/ 25" tires) in 3rd gear. To disengage 3rd gear, the motor goes to 0 torque so the gear can disengage easily to neutral. Now the tranny is in neutral. The input shaft is solidly coupled to the motors, the output shaft is coupled to the wheels, but they aren't coupled together because we're in neutral. That means the motors can rev match the input shaft to the speed of the output shaft for the next gear (I would need to know which direction the gear is changing which is why paddle shifters or a bump shifter are a must). Once the motors match the input shaft to the output shaft's rpms, again, the motors go to torque 0 and the new gear is engaged. The rev matching and the 0 torque control would be controlled by a realtime computer using a simple PID control algorithm. The control signal is the throttle signal which is also already in the system. If you look in my thread, there's a video of the wrightspeed gearbox shifting. They claim 80ms shifts, and no tranny wear on shifts. There is a question regarding my shifting scheme. My question is whether or not the synchros have enough strength to move the input shaft and the motor rotors 1 degree or so to engage the gear. The input and output shaft could be rev matched but not synchronized. I'm thinking they're strong enough, but we'll see.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

When you shift, the clutch is disengaged so the only inertia the synchros have to deal with are the inertia of the tranny shafts themselves and the clutch disc. .

Hi Speedy,
You are correct on your statement above.
The Formula Lighting racing series require licensed race drivers. They would show up once a month to race.
They were very fast (a few 100ms) at shifting. Off gas, clutch in, pull out of gear at the same time. Then next gear, full gas, pop clutch.
On major difference was the electric motor did not slow down during the shift. So when he pop the clutch with the higher inertia motor spinning faster than the new gear it would spike the transmission pretty hard.

Both in EV and ICE, a lot people make the mistake of putting in the strongest clutch the can find.

In your case. The single AC Propulsion System was pretty fast pushing around a 3500 lb formula lightning car with one gear. It would be awesome in an 818. (aka tzero) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_Propulsion_tzero

[Gary Livingston]

Getting the rear motor with weight and torque mounts sorted out. Removed original motor mounts.

[Gary Livingston]

I decided to go to the STI hubs. Main reason is to get a larger/stronger axle. There is more room for a larger diameter CV. Of course there are other benefits. I don't really think I need the Brembo brakes. . .but I want less un-srpung weight also. That said, while the brake pots are a lot lighter, the rest is all heavier due to larger rotors I guess. Probably have to go to lightweight rotors to capture full benefit. I can likely get rid of the drum parking brakes . . . as both egear drives have an electric parking brake. Also picked up the aluminum lateral links.
Just assembling temporary again, to get measurements for the axles. These STI links do set the hubs out further than the wagon links.
I guess there are probably more rim choices also.

[Gary Livingston]

Had to repair some of the threads on the Brembos. Installed heli-coils in some mount holes.

[Gary Livingston]

When installing the STI hubs on the front, one needs to modify the UCA attach bracket. First drilling out the puddle welds. Next, clamp a piece of copper (brass or bronze will also work ok) to the back side and puddle weld. Ensure the holes are large enough and start the weld on the bottom plate else its possible to have no penetration. Re-drill upper holes using transfer punch to locate.

NOTE; I've seen a few people mention that this is a good fit once the inner plates are removed for the thicker section knuckle. Not the case. . .at least not with mine. If you didn't notice (I didn't take a pic. . . but will add later) there is a space of about .035". This space may not matter for the bottom hole, but significant undue stress is placed on the weldment when tightening down the upper bolt onto the knuckle if no spacer is used. I fabricated one from galvanized sheet. You can see it in one of the pics if you look close.

[Scargo]

Don't forget the anti-seize. I am doing an STi rear. You might want to see what I'm doing, especially in a couple of weeks as I get closer to finalizing it with wheels, brakes and relocating the caliper mount.

[Gary Livingston]

OK thanks, I'll check it out! All just dry fit for me at this point. I still have to get the frame painted.

I have all new bearings also but waiting on the ARP studs. Suppose to be in tomorrow.

I should get my custom rear drive shafts this week also.

[Gary Livingston]

Installed rough fit new custom rear axles. They are much heavier than stock. . . made for 500HP apparently..

Got all new wheel bearings. (expensive from dealership! I think I screwed up there maybe) and ARP studs. Installed one front knuckle with new bearings and studs.

[Speedy G]

So clean!!! I can't wait to see what you do with the batteries.

[Gary Livingston]

So clean!!! I can't wait to see what you do with the batteries.

Thanks Speedy. Truth be told, I'm actually rather embarrassed to post pics with such an unfinished chassis, rusty components etc.. It is necessary to go this way, to do all the mods though.
I can hardly wait to get to the point of starting the actual build. . . like I'm at -1.5 right now and counting to zero, so I can start on the plus side. argh.