Tough Day at the Track - VIR, 10/03/14

[Dave Smith]

Check out John George at speed for a few minutes before the engine grenades. This short five minute video is exciting and heart-breaking at the same time. The car is SO FAST, and it was tough for the team to fail to record a great time and a win with the car.

Racing is the best and the worst. Last Friday at VIR it was the worst. One of the many reasons Factory Fives are so good is because we are committed to racing and that commitment is really tough sometimes. Friday it was really tough.

Last weekend we went to VIR (Virginia International raceway) with two race-prepped 818R’s. The goals were to get the cars down below two minutes, to test some aero changes and to continue to tune and develop the chassis. Bottom line is that 37 minutes into the day, both cars would have catastrophic engine failures. Racing breaks your heart. Losing two engines breaks your heart AND your bank account! Relatively stupid small things that combined to knock out both cars.



In the red 818R, John George was pulling 150+ mph on the straights on his WARM-UP LAPS! The car is SICK fast and totally capable of running with just about anything on the track. Sub-two minutes is obvious… John had a clamp on the turbo fail that opened up the engine to an immediate 44 lbs of boost… looks like a connecting rod went. The car had been dyno’d at 412 rwhp before we came down to VIR.


After we disassembled the car and got a closer look, we found that the red 818R had an oil leak onto the exhaust manifold that burned the timing chain cover and the hose to the external waste gate. With the hose melted, the boost spiked to 45 PSI and the engine threw a connecting rod. The engine was shut down and John coasted to a stop on the front straight away. The damage was too much to continue.


The engine block is scrap.

I drove the 345 hp blue 818R and was simply slack-jawed at the neck-straining cornering, the drive out of the turns was making me giddy and the braking made me feel like I could ignore the rules of physics… This little car is an extremely fast track car and it handles sooo good! I had spent maybe 3-4 laps getting used to it and starting to dial up the speed when near the midpoint of my first session, I had blue/white smoke coming from the rear exhaust. I shut it down and pulled off track. In the pits, we found one cylinder had lost all compression and the car was done for the weekend.


It turns out the blue 818R had a cooling line to the turbo charger loosen up at the banjo fitting, and enough coolant leaked out to over heat and seize the engine. After it cooled off, the car runs but one cylinder has no compression and it may require a new short block.

John ran a three hour endure race in a FFR Challenge car on Saturday, but the 818R’s were on the trailer. True to form, the team got to work Monday morning bright and early. The cars were unloaded and were being stripped down, engines taken out, all by 8:30am. It’s tough to lose like we did Friday but I’m proud as heck of the guys and we’ll go back and we’ll run faster than we ever dreamed.


The engine was out and ready to be shipped to the engine builder by noon on Monday.

A lot of companies brag about the track abilities of their cars. Most of em have never seen a track. From the earliest days at FFR, we’ve committed ourselves to proving our cars in racing. It’s the “Racing” in Factory Five Racing that has kept our cars honest. The 818’s that we are shipping are great in large part because of this. It took me a full day to get over the disappointment (and losses) from Friday, but this week started full of hope and excitement for the next go-out. Racing Gds take their toll, I’ve learned that. Those willing to pay will lose lots of money in the process and gain other things that are priceless. Thought you guys might like to know.

[Dave Smith]

Jim and I in the R&D shop.


8 A.M. Monday morning the car comes apart.


With a fun three-day race weekend ahead, it was really tough to load the cars onto the trailer at 9:30 A.M. on the first day.


Joe moved the blue 818R into the shop.


The crew takes apart the red 818R.


Chris stows the race trailer and gear.


Joe had to rinse off some Virginia grass and mud.

[Dave Smith]

The 818 development program has been our best to date. We’ve put a tremendous amount of time and energy, and while the weekend was a big disappointment, we’ll be back and we’ll be faster. I love this car.

[bbjones121]

That is a major bummer, i am sorry to hear. The red car would have destroyed the track!! I look forward to the next event and hope everything works out. I am sure everything will work out if you stick to it.

We also need more people getting their 818s done and out to the tracks so the proving efforts are not yours alone.

[fact5racer]

"We also need more people getting their 818s done and out to the tracks so the proving efforts are not yours alone. "

I'll be there come spring.

[68GT500MAN]

I saw the 153 mph while watching the video, these cars look like they are on a slot-car track.
Doug

[Rasmus]

So good to see it running!

So sad to see it blow.

[metalmaker12]

Really bad day, but no one got physically hurt.

Dave,on the red car, if the waste gate tube let go, or a vacum line etc, wouldn't the fuel cut and or boost cut programmed into you ecu kick in to save the day. I have had turbo cars get things loose and the ecu tune I was running shuts it down asap. On the blue car it sounds like that might have been leaking ever so lightly and when you got on ot it leaked out more and prob sucked in air also to blow a head gasket or more. What was the coolant temp at. I feel your pain!!! I blew it up at my autocross from very high iats and a colant leak which resulted in me having smoke also. My shortblock was ok for a rebuild. Good luck and I too love the 818!!

[JeromeS13]

"We also need more people getting their 818s done and out to the tracks so the proving efforts are not yours alone. "

I'll be there come spring.

I'll be doing my second event this weekend @ Inde Motorsports Ranch in Willcox, AZ.

[EricScottZehnder]

Events like this make me equal parts excited and apprehensive. On one hand, you've proven that this car can go very fast when everything is running as it should. On the other hand, you've had some pretty serious issues at each test since launch. You have a team of highly skilled engineers from your shop behind these cars. I'm only a weekend wrencher.

I want to believe that I can pay my money, put in my time and get great results but seeing stuff like this makes me wonder if I'd be staring down a massive money (and perhaps talent) pit where I can never achieve the greatness the chassis can do when the stars align.

[Qwik 1]

If the data logger is correct it sure had a lot of oil pressure...til it didn't.
Is it normal to have that much pressure in these engines? Seems kinda high to me. But I'm just a sbf guy. Just curious.

[bbjones121]

I actually was able to watch the race video on a larger screen. There should be some kind of cutoff or alarm when it started to over boost. The engine took 30+lbs of boost for some time. Even my cheap boost gauge in my legacy has a bright red light that would have started flashing the moment it went over a setpoint.

Does the guage cluster used have a function like that?

[JeromeS13]

Those oil pressures are perfectly normal for an EJ. I'm kinda curious of the oil temps, though (more specifically, where they were when he began to push the car). The only warning I see on the Racepack is for in IAT > 140 degrees. (At least until after the motor lets go).

[bbjones121]

I think it spiked to 28lbs of boost right before the straight (warning light could have come on if set ), dropped off, then went up to 30+

[skullandbones]

I feel for you and FFR having 2 catastrophic failures on the same weekend. I'm sure your sick about it. But things will get better as you are getting the bad statistics out of the way and should look forward to some good numbers in the future! Hope you figure out a "bullet proof" engine before too long and tear up the track with it. It sure looked good in the video. Thanks for sharing, WEK.

[Scargo]

I was thinking similarly to metalmaker12. Is there no over-boost protection in the electronics, and if not, wouldn't it be simple to add a fuel cut or similar function based on a pressure switch? My SPA digital gauges have that capability. Or an adjustable pressure relief valve on the manifold (called a pop-off valve)?
I should talk... I have nothing like that yet. Last year I was running my new 400WHP motor at NHMS when I noticed boost spikes of over 26PSI when it should have stopped at 24. Boy was it sick fast! I have ARP studs, CP pistons and stock head gaskets. It didn't and hasn't missed a beat. I found my issue was the internal wastegate started sticking and not opening fully.
And, yea, those oil pressures are normal. It did drop into the 70's once it got to 170. I think I run about 65 at 210 degrees and am running a stock 11mm pump.

[longislandwrx]

Sorry for your loss.

A great product for you guys after the rebuild would be a GFB turbo fuse.

http://www.gfb.com.au/products/boost...rbofuse-by-gfb

[jkrueger]

A couple of things I noticed in the video.

The safety pin for the fire pull handle was still in. Maybe the system is different than mine.

And it looked like there was smoke coming from the left front wheel during some of the braking events.

Once you get these cars sorted out, they will be stupid fast.

JC

[Jim Schenck]

Fire system has two pins, the one on the bottle was pulled for the day, the one on the dash is what gets pulled in case of fire. The smoke was from us trying to get the front end as low as possible and being a little to low, that was about 1/2 an inch lower than we have run the blue car with the same spring rates.

[sponaugle]

I was thinking similarly to metalmaker12. Is there no over-boost protection in the electronics, and if not, wouldn't it be simple to add a fuel cut or similar function based on a pressure switch? My SPA digital gauges have that capability. Or an adjustable pressure relief valve on the manifold (called a pop-off valve)?
I should talk... I have nothing like that yet.
And, yea, those oil pressures are normal. It did drop into the 70's once it got to 170. I think I run about 65 at 210 degrees and am running a stock 11mm pump.

Yes, the stock ECU supports a boost cut, and clearly the sensor used for the datalogging has enough range. Simple to enable the boost cut. When you hit boost cut it cuts all fuel to the engine for about 2 seconds, so you know when you hit it. It will also set a CEL. That was some crazy boost... 45psi.. ouch!

Sorry for your loss.
A great product for you guys after the rebuild would be a GFB turbo fuse.
http://www.gfb.com.au/products/boost...rbofuse-by-gfb

Indeed that can work, as it simply opens the blow off valve if you get boost to high. The electronic boost cut would have done just as well however, assuming you use the right sensor. No doubt a backup doesn't hurt!

There are a number of other things that should be done in the ECU for a track car like this. ( IAT and Engine Temp cutouts, DAM threshold changes, massively rich low DAM maps ( can be used to kill the car or limit RPMs to get back to the pits). If you guys need more info don't hesitate to ask!

Love that you are really pushing these cars so hard!

Jeff Sponaugle

[Mark Dougherty]

Wow
You guys rock.
The fact that you can get both cars to the track with all other things that need to be done at the Factory is just amazing.
FFR gets every last bit out of every employee.
Any Time you need help to set them up, or Track support Dave just call. Ill be there in a minute.
Later
Mark D

[Turn In Concepts]

I agree with Jeff on this. The data seen in the video really worries makes me concerned with how the engine and ecu are setup.

What fuel is being used? We routinely run 35 - 40 PSI of boost on our race car from a GTX3582 making over 600 whp on an E90 blend without issues, but there is much more that goes into boost than just fuel. Where is the IAT sensor; 230* is outrageous!! The sensor should definitely be relocated from the MAF sensor into the post intercooler charge stream If it hasn't already been. If it has the intercooler is doing NOTHING! Without doing this there is no way of knowing actual intake air temps as the air enters the motor and no way of being able to compensate correctly. I have never in my years building EJ's for track use and racing them seen an intake air temp of 230*! We start pulling timing over 100* before that to safeguard the motor.

This leads me to the lack of air flow to the intercooler. I haven't seen CFD data on the body, but by looking at it the intercooler has to be in a low pressure zone and with no scoop to grab air it isn't going to be adding any kind of cooling benefit at all. Is the engine area flat bottomed as well? The stock intercooler with the scoop in the hood is designed to have air enter through the scoop, flow through the core, then down around the sides of the transmission and out under the car. If the exit is blocked as well there is going to be no cooling effect at all as all the air will be hot and stagnant. I think an air to water core would actually be much more effective given the body.

I also noticed that the water temp was really low. In response to the oil pressure comments it is seen that after two laps the pressure starts to drop to levels that are bordering on safe. In another two laps with the oil temp rising the pressures would drop even further and be to the point where there is not enough pressure to keep the crank properly oiled through the rev range. These motors need 10 psi of oil pressure per 1000 rpm of engine speed to survive. Great care has to be taken to control oil temps in order to keep pressures at desired levels. It is clear to me based on the data provided that oil temps were starting to skyrocket while coolant temps were not rising much. These would tell me that the oil cooling system is unacceptable.

These items listed if not fixed will continue to cause dead motors on this car no matter how it is built.

If you have some answers to the questions that would be great. I'd love to help if I can.

Tony
Turn in Concepts

[sponaugle]

I agree with Jeff on this. The data seen in the video really worries makes me concerned with how the engine and ecu are setup.

What fuel is being used? We routinely run 35 - 40 PSI of boost on our race car from a GTX3582 making over 600 whp on an E90 blend without issues, but there is much more that goes into boost than just fuel. Where is the IAT sensor; 230* is outrageous!! The sensor should definitely be relocated from the MAF sensor into the post intercooler charge stream If it hasn't already been. If it has the intercooler is doing NOTHING! Without doing this there is no way of knowing actual intake air temps as the air enters the motor and no way of being able to compensate correctly. I have never in my years building EJ's for track use and racing them seen an intake air temp of 230*! We start pulling timing over 100* before that to safeguard the motor.

This leads me to the lack of air flow to the intercooler. I haven't seen CFD data on the body, but by looking at it the intercooler has to be in a low pressure zone and with no scoop to grab air it isn't going to be adding any kind of cooling benefit at all. Is the engine area flat bottomed as well? The stock intercooler with the scoop in the hood is designed to have air enter through the scoop, flow through the core, then down around the sides of the transmission and out under the car. If the exit is blocked as well there is going to be no cooling effect at all as all the air will be hot and stagnant. I think an air to water core would actually be much more effective given the body.
I also noticed that the water temp was really low. In response to the oil pressure comments it is seen that after two laps the pressure starts to drop to levels that are bordering on safe. In another two laps with the oil temp rising the pressures would drop even further and be to the point where there is not enough pressure to keep the crank properly oiled through the rev range. These motors need 10 psi of oil pressure per 1000 rpm of engine speed to survive. Great care has to be taken to control oil temps in order to keep pressures at desired levels. It is clear to me based on the data provided that oil temps were starting to skyrocket while coolant temps were not rising much. These would tell me that the oil cooling system is unacceptable.
These items listed if not fixed will continue to cause dead motors on this car no matter how it is built.
If you have some answers to the questions that would be great. I'd love to help if I can.
Tony
Turn in Concepts

Hey Tony,

There is actually another thread in the engine specific forum that has been discussing this topic, and Jim has posted some details there: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...ctive-MAX-temp

In particular, a few things stand out:

(1) This car was running an Electromotive ECU, not a factory ECU.
(2) The Electromotive ECU had it's own MAP sensor, different from the one used to log for the video.
(3) This car is running an AWIC setup, with a pretty small front heat exchanger. See pic below:



That is a pretty small heat exchanger, especially given the density of water over air. Typically for an AWIC you would want a much larger front surface area with a thinner core.

I am doing an AWIC in my setup using a 600whp EZ30R, so I'm expecting to need to do some work on this topic!

Jeff

[Turn In Concepts]

Interesting. Those IAT's are wacko! How are they getting air out of the core though? The ducting in the hood is quite small. Are there scoops that meet the back side of the intercooler?

Where is the ECT sensor located?

Tony

[Hindsight]

There are big vents at the rear of each fender. Actually, the entire rear fender is spaced out an inch or two from the doors to act as one big vent.

[sponaugle]

Interesting. Those IAT's are wacko! How are they getting air out of the core though? The ducting in the hood is quite small. Are there scoops that meet the back side of the intercooler?
Where is the ECT sensor located?
Tony

Good questions. There are louvers in the hood (you can see them in the picture of the red car at the beginning of the thread), and the area behind the radiator is pretty open (the battery is in that location). (and as Hindsight mentioned above the back of the fenders are open!) I don't think anyone has made ducting that connects to the backside of the radiator in order to direct the airflow. In this particular case the front air-water heat exchanger (which is the primary way adiabatic heat is getting removed) is in front of the radiator. Given that location it would be difficult to have much ducting behind that heat exchanger... although I suppose you could have small fins that direct the air into the radiator core.

To really know what is going on, data is needed. IATs pre and post engine side heat exchanger, and water temp sensors pre and post front heat exchanger. It is important to look at the rate of water flow. In some systems the pumps are so large that the water is moving too fast to get effective cooling in the front heat exchanger. Again data would tell that tale.

I believe the ECT shown in the video is coming from the Electromotive, which is getting ECT from the factory ECT sensor and location ( in the case of a Subaru EJ, in the crossover pipe on the top of the motor ).

Unrelated Tony, I have a suspension question to ask you. PM or email? Tks!

Jeff

[Jim Schenck]

The hood ducts are actually pretty good size on this car, look at the first picture in this thread and you will see what I mean, they were cut out larger than the standard openings. I think analyzing the data without accounting for the fact that the engine was on fire is giving bad information. My example would be low oil pressure, the belt on the scavenge pump was burned off of the pulleys so the oil pressure drop was quite possible more related to that than temp, also at some point when the engine threw a rod out the top of the block that certainly didn't help the pressure either. Really the high air temperatures were a seperate issue (although the air inlet was also not particularly far from the fire) that would have been looked at during the event if the other failure hadn't occured. I suspect a coolant flow issue just becasue of how fast the temperature climbed even on a slow lap behind the pace car. The water in the holding tank was indeed hot so the pump was doing something, just possibly not enough. I can see the heat exchanger needing to be bigger but not to the point it won't stay cool on a warm up lap with lots of time off boost to recover.

[Stickshift84]

While I was extremely disappointed to hear what happened, I find all of the discussion happening now to be fascinating. I know that we can all learn from what has happened and in the end will all have better cars. Thank you for all the information shared.

[BrandonDrums]

Interesting. Those IAT's are wacko! How are they getting air out of the core though? The ducting in the hood is quite small. Are there scoops that meet the back side of the intercooler?

Where is the ECT sensor located?

Tony

Good to see you guys posting here. I actually suggested FFR reach out to you guys for help, mainly to speak with Dominic if he's still there. I had some interactions with him while he was still in Washington and know good things about his work. All of you guys are great and know your stuff and it's nice to see you're already reaching out.

Those IAT's are outrageous, pre or post intercooler they are certainly too high if you ask me. I also am interested to know if their Water Temp readings are from the engine coolant or the AWIC setup. They are a bit on the cold side considering how hot everything else is for the engine so I'm guessing they are actually AWIC readings.

[Turn In Concepts]

The hood ducts are actually pretty good size on this car, look at the first picture in this thread and you will see what I mean, they were cut out larger than the standard openings. I think analyzing the data without accounting for the fact that the engine was on fire is giving bad information. My example would be low oil pressure, the belt on the scavenge pump was burned off of the pulleys so the oil pressure drop was quite possible more related to that than temp, also at some point when the engine threw a rod out the top of the block that certainly didn't help the pressure either. Really the high air temperatures were a seperate issue (although the air inlet was also not particularly far from the fire) that would have been looked at during the event if the other failure hadn't occured. I suspect a coolant flow issue just becasue of how fast the temperature climbed even on a slow lap behind the pace car. The water in the holding tank was indeed hot so the pump was doing something, just possibly not enough. I can see the heat exchanger needing to be bigger but not to the point it won't stay cool on a warm up lap with lots of time off boost to recover.

Does this car run a dry sump?

The pressure drop that I was seeing to me was definitely related to oil temp, but not knowing the build I could be wrong. If it was a belt on a dry sump pressure would have gone down instantly not gradually.

The IAT's though IMO and depending on compensations in the tune are enough to destroy the motor in the way seen. Given how detonation prone these motors are with IAT's in the 220's a crazy amount of timing would need to be pulled to keep the car from detonating. On these motors, as soon as you get a detonation event that is severe enough it can quickly destroy a rod and cause the problem that was experienced. The majority of failures we see in these engine, stock or modified, are related to detonation issues.

Tony

[JeromeS13]

Any pictures of the actual intercooler core from the red car?

[sponaugle]

Take a look at: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post173611

[Drew P]

44psi yikes! Surprised all that went was a connecting rod.