Andrew & Tamra's 818SR EM Autox Hybrid Destroked Long-Rod Build

[Tamra]

Thanks everyone! We have been having a blast, and learning a ton.

Here's a time lapse leading up to the start last night:

[Tamra]

Looking at your image I see that the rear is at the bottom-most hole. Do you still have room underneath the seat shell to lower it more? If so you could create a new rear hole; even if you need to make a special spacer shim for each side.
Then you could weld-in 3/16" plates that straddles the X and bolt directly to them. Otherwise I would weld in anti-crush sleeves in the X member for your mount holes.
While it may be a moot point for autocross, I have concerns about bolting directly to the X member, as-is, for street, highway or track use.

We actually added that hole, and we can't go any lower before the seat hits the rail. We'll look into reinforcing - thanks!

Mine is adjusted the same as yours (full up in front and full down in back). With the stock fuel tank, I don't believe my seat will clear the rear firewall. I need to put that firewall back in temporarily to make sure bit if it fits, it will be VERY close. Probably have to come down a notch or two in the front on mine. YMMV though.

We set in the upper firewall piece since it is not permanently mounted yet, and it seemed like it cleared, but barely. I'm sure if the seat was shaped slightly differently it would hit. I guess we lucked out with the Sparco Corsa's. With the seat all the way back, it is about perfect for Andrew, and all the way forward is perfect for me (only about 1" of difference though!)

[Harley818]

Just wondering...... why does Andrew get to do all the driving in the vids?

[Tamra]

Don't worry, I get first official go-kart drive when it happens in the next few weeks (Plus if anything went wrong I wanted it to be his fault ;p)

Good trade off I think

[xxguitarist]

We picked up a pair of mufflers from Amazon. Both are inexpensive, both are small, and both shipped quickly!
Dynomax 24250 Race Mini Bullet Muffler and Cherry Bomb 7428 Extreme Muffler.

The Dynomax is a straight-through, with glass pack around it. Alone, it didn't seem to do much at all. Not sure if it was aiding the Cherry Bomb. The latter did do a bit, it took most of the harsh tone off of the exhaust, to the point that I think we could idle for a while to get the coolant burped mid-day. It's 7:30 right now, so I kept things pretty quick. We use air tools enough in the evening.

Obviously the routing needs to change, we'll likely tuck them against each other with a 90 towards the passenger rear wheel, a 180 around to the other muffler, then a 90 back out the tail. The Dynomax is the same size as a high-flow cat we found, so for inspection they'll be exchanged.

Now the part you actually wanted to see (click through for higher res & slightly better sound quality):

[Erik W. Treves]

I like the hugs after the first drive/go-kart out of the garage I can't think of a better way to celebrate! you guys are cruising!! great job!

[JeromeS13]

I ended up using a single Vibrant 3" muffler. On first startup, it's pretty loud. However, after the car warms up, it's really not THAT bad. The exhaust note usually calms down a bit after it's fully warmed up.

[Tamra]

I like the hugs after the first drive/go-kart out of the garage I can't think of a better way to celebrate! you guys are cruising!! great job!

We were pretty excited Thank you!

I ended up using a single Vibrant 3" muffler. On first startup, it's pretty loud. However, after the car warms up, it's really not THAT bad. The exhaust note usually calms down a bit after it's fully warmed up.

3" is the inlet and outlet side, I'm assuming? What is the overall length? Ours are both 9" long (and could be cut down a bit more if necessary), the same as our cat.

[Tamra]

Update from this weekend:

We've been working on a solution for our shifter. We were not very happy with the feel, so we've decided to run the cables straight back to the transmission. Andrew is currently working on a bell crank solution using CAD and we hope to have a prototype within the next two weeks. We are also ordering shorter cables. If this goes as we hope, this might be a package we could offer to other builders looking for a more economical solution to improve their shift feel.

In the meantime, we mounted our shifter today. With reversing its direction, it puts first and 2nd nearly straight up and down (vs in the wiper stalk and your lap in the FFR orientation). Fifth is pretty far toward the passenger, but I guess only as far as it would have been toward the driver in the other orientation! We also low mounted it. It does not require any modifications as long as the bottom panel is not on - just slide it up underneath. It will not be easily removable once the panel is riveted in place. We cut thick spacers and used 5" long bolts.

You can sort of see in this picture the aluminum strap we also put underneath the shifter that we are using as a wire keeper. We don't want them to wander up and get caught in the shifter movement. We also mounted the shifter behind the center brace bars, which we found to be much more ergonomically pleasing. FFR has you mount it in front of the bars, and on the top. With running the shifter lines rearward, they have to be moved above the pivot of the handle (see clamp location - will be tapped later). Other than cutting the center console hole further back due to us mounting the shifter behind the cross brace, we could theoretically do no further modifications. However, we will likely raise the console an inch or two so we can have an even straighter path back to the transmission with the shifter cables. We will also need to find a solution for the e-brake, since it interferes with our shifter being mounted further back.



We also started to run the AWIC lines. 1" hose to the side, then an aluminum tube similar to the FFR coolant tube, followed by more 1" hose up to the AWIC radiator. 1" is probably a little overkill, but it'll work.


We currently have them both ran down the passenger side (weight balance! ). We think these should clear the body panels. Anyone further along see any reason we can't go through this hole in the dead pedal?



This morning we went and visited with Glyn (Scargo) for a bit. Wow does he have some awesome stuff going on over there with his 818, and what a beautiful garage (and home) he has. We borrowed a Spin Tech muffler from him to try it against our other smaller ones we had picked up. Here's a video of it with a cold start, and once the engine was heated up (quite a lot of sound difference!), including some revs. What do you guys think of the mufflers?
The Spin Tech would be very hard to fit. We would have to go up and over the transmission with it, and then exit on the other side. With the Cherry Bomb (red one) and the Mini Bullet, we can do a 90 out of the downpipe, fit the cat/mini bullet (both 9"), a 180, fit the Cherry Bomb, and then a 90 straight out the back near the transmission. We have to get sound down enough to meet 100 db at 50 ft.


We also tried to burp the coolant today. However, we could not get the engine up to operating temperature enough to open the thermostat before it would begin to idle rough and die (after running out of gas... again... 5 gallons is not enough apparently). Our Cobb accessport registered about 200 degrees for the coolant temp (and the dash gauge was right at 1/2 way), then it would cut out and die. After cleaning our idle control valve, code P1507 went away. We were left with P0037 (relating to the rear 02 sensor - probably due to no cat), and P0172 (running rich), as well as a a low wastegate code (probably due to the new turbo?). We also data logged and so we should be able to see what happened right before the car died. We're not sure why it would idle so smoothly just until the temp got up mid-way, then die.

[Tamra]

Last but not least, here's a time lapse of the last week or so:

[Ellimist]

Is that a coolant/water light going through the pedal box area? I guess there's still panels that'll cover that?

I see the 1" in the middle (above the coolant line), but the tube on the top looks bigger than the 1" - maybe just the camera angle?

IMO, the tone of the Spin Tech sounds better. I may be missing something, but seems like the Spin Tech could fit well with a different down pipe configuration: a "level pipe" a 120deg bend to point straight back, and the muffler's output would be ready to be extended straight out the back.

Not sure why it does right when it should be "happy" (i.e., op temp) - good luck!

[Ellimist]

Last but not least, here's a time lapse of the last week or so:

Switched from alternative/rock to classical, eh? Hard to tell from the video but looks like Adam BARELY passes the broomstick test?...tough to know for sure without a helmet on.

[Harley818]

Hi Andrew and Tamra,
Did you consider this muffler from Autoanything.com.

http://www.autoanything.com/exhausts...rmance-muffler

It has a variable adjustment cone to adjust the amount of exhaust going through the full muffler.
I don't know how well it works, but since you are playing and adjusting to get the right sound.. you might want to check this out.
I might consider it as a trial just to see what difference it makes.
I think your square one is too soft, but the others sound good.

I was just trying to burp my system today too. I let the temp climb to the 2/3 mark, then shut it down, but it kept idling well the whole time. Took more coolant as it cooled down. Metalmaker gave me some suggestions on my thread.
He said to unbolt the rad, lift it up so that the coolant burps out of the degas tank. If I recall, you have the fixed pipes so this may not be possible.

[Tamra]

Is that a coolant/water light going through the pedal box area? I guess there's still panels that'll cover that?



I see the 1" in the middle (above the coolant line), but the tube on the top looks bigger than the 1" - maybe just the camera angle?


IMO, the tone of the Spin Tech sounds better. I may be missing something, but seems like the Spin Tech could fit well with a different down pipe configuration: a "level pipe" a 120deg bend to point straight back, and the muffler's output would be ready to be extended straight out the back.

Not sure why it does right when it should be "happy" (i.e., op temp) - good luck!

Yup, that's the coolant line (you are talking about the corrugated hose, right?). Our dead pedal will cover it, but we left it off until we were sure that the awic hoses were going to fit without modification. We'll install those permanently next. The AWIC lines are both 1", but they are soft sided and so slightly squished going through there. Since they are both oversize for what the AWIC recommends, we're not too worried if flow is slightly restricted in that area.

As for the Spintech, if we put it in that orientation we would have no space to put our o2 sensors. It might be possible, but it'd be difficult due to its length. It would take up pretty much the entire space from the turbo to the back of the car. Also, we have to have a cat for inspection, and there'd be no place for it unless we put the muffler over the top of the transmission and did some bends to find a place for it.

Switched from alternative/rock to classical, eh? Hard to tell from the video but looks like Adam BARELY passes the broomstick test?...tough to know for sure without a helmet on.

Andrew would not have passed the broomstick test until we tilted the seats back. Now, if he sits very upright, his hair brushes the board placed between the windshield and the roll bar (which means a helmet would be above). But, if he sits relaxed or slightly down, he has maybe 2". It's a tight fit. Unfortunately we do need to keep the sliders due to us both driving the car, else he could get another 1/2 or 3/4".

Hi Andrew and Tamra,
Did you consider this muffler from Autoanything.com.

http://www.autoanything.com/exhausts...rmance-muffler

It has a variable adjustment cone to adjust the amount of exhaust going through the full muffler.
I don't know how well it works, but since you are playing and adjusting to get the right sound.. you might want to check this out.
I might consider it as a trial just to see what difference it makes.
I think your square one is too soft, but the others sound good.

I was just trying to burp my system today too. I let the temp climb to the 2/3 mark, then shut it down, but it kept idling well the whole time. Took more coolant as it cooled down. Metalmaker gave me some suggestions on my thread.
He said to unbolt the rad, lift it up so that the coolant burps out of the degas tank. If I recall, you have the fixed pipes so this may not be possible.

I can't find the dimensions on that muffler anywhere. It sounds like an interesting design though!

On the coolant, we couldn't burp ours since the thermostat didn't even open in the engine for the coolant to start flowing. It would just hit halfway then the idle would start to fluctuate and then it'd cut out. We'll try to look at the data log later today. Unfortunately, we also don't have the turbo coolant tank anymore since our turbo is oil cooled, so that nice high point is not available for use.

[RM1SepEx]

Andrew, Tamra, your shift cables are going to be tortured getting up over the tank, are you revising the bulkhead mounts?

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Tamra,
I'm not sure your side sails will fit with your AWIC hoses above the frame bar.
Bob

[Ellimist]

Ya, that's probably why one of the 1" looks bigger - squished a little. BTW, why the oversized lines? Just might as well for future expansion?

[AZPete]

I don't think you'll have a problem as long as you stay less than 5 inches from the bottom of the frame. Here are my heater hoses running through the left side dead pedal and I now have my side sails on with no problem. There's lots of room to the outer side, just stay under 5 inches.

[xxguitarist]

Andrew, Tamra, your shift cables are going to be tortured getting up over the tank, are you revising the bulkhead mounts?

They'll be mounting to a bulkhead sheetmetal bracket that will attach to the center console bars, so the curves should be pretty mild to get over the gas tank.

Tamra,
I'm not sure your side sails will fit with your AWIC hoses above the frame bar.
Bob

Thanks, this was the area we were concerned about. It'll be tight to fit them through the same area as the coolant hose.

Anyone have the panels on who can have a look?

Ya, that's probably why one of the 1" looks bigger - squished a little. BTW, why the oversized lines? Just might as well for future expansion?

It's not much extra weight from water volume, and the larger lines should allow for a little less head loss throughout the system.

[RM1SepEx]

They'll be mounting to a bulkhead sheetmetal bracket that will attach to the center console bars, so the curves should be pretty mild to get over the gas tank.

That's good, the plastic mounts suck anyways but won't that torque those drop down tubes and bolts? It won't be as rigid as you might like...

[Jaime]

Thanks, this was the area we were concerned about. It'll be tight to fit them through the same area as the coolant hose.

Anyone have the panels on who can have a look?

I ran one over the bar and one under, next to the coolant tube. The top one was a very tight fit. I couldn't have fit both over the bar.

[Tamra]

That's good, the plastic mounts suck anyways but won't that torque those drop down tubes and bolts? It won't be as rigid as you might like...

With loose bolts it was shockingly rigid already. We did use very thick walled circular spacers that were a tight fit in the plastic housing as well. If it turns out to be a problem, we have a tig machine on the way and Andrew can weld them onto the bars.

I ran one over the bar and one under, next to the coolant tube. The top one was a very tight fit. I couldn't have fit both over the bar.

Thank you, that is very helpful!



Also, I uploaded our data log. We realized we did not log the AFR or the correction numbers. However, we had them visible on the screen while the car was running and the AFR was sitting around 12 with the correction at -25. We are not very knowledgeable on how to read the data log, but we think that means our car was running pretty rich and the ECU was doing everything it could to lean it out. Can you guys see anything else from the log?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9i...ew?usp=sharing

[STiPWRD]

Also, I uploaded our data log. We realized we did not log the AFR or the correction numbers. However, we had them visible on the screen while the car was running and the AFR was sitting around 12 with the correction at -25. We are not very knowledgeable on how to read the data log, but we think that means our car was running pretty rich and the ECU was doing everything it could to lean it out. Can you guys see anything else from the log?

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9i...ew?usp=sharing

Were you reading one of the stock narrowband sensors or were you using a wideband O2? An AFR of 12 is pretty rich at idle but if it was being read by a stock O2 sensor, it may have been even lower since those things are not accurate below 12. 25% correction is also rather high. Did you upgrade your injectors? If so, did you rescale them in the ECU?

[Tamra]

We were using the stock o2 sensors to keep the computer happy. We do have a wideband and we will plug it in next time. We upgraded to ID1000's and we received a startup tune that should have accounted for them. However, we agree, it seemed like it was running too rich and so we emailed EFI to get an updated map.

Weird thing was it was idling very very good right up til it hit operating temp, then started fluctuating all over the place and died. You can see from the muffler videos posted a few above that it was idling nicely. Right after the "warm engine" video, the car started fluctuating and died within minutes. We did not capture it on video.

Note, the log posted was not from a start. It was started after the car was running (and could have potentially been close to operating temp), through when it died.

[STiPWRD]

I'm baffled as well about the car dying like that, sorry I can't think of too many reasons why. Just keep trouble shooting and data logging. The rich AFR could be related to the injectors, a bad MAF sensor, restricted air flow or some other reasons (hopefully electrical). You may also want to try and measure the exhaust manifold temps at each of the 4 pipes leaving the heads to see if all 4 cylinders are running. Us an infrared thermometer. Maybe it's a bad spark plug.

[metalmaker12]

If it's getting worse at warmup than I am suspect the afr ( 02) and maff. something's off in the metering of the air, but your map should be good for this

So I suspect the iac delete is your issue and you have to adjust idle manually to get it not to die. Total warmup is at 195 degrees and prior to that with the iac removed it might be ok at first, but once the 02 heats up and thermo the ecu is adding the recommend fuel but the iac with a delete is not. I always leave the Iac cause it takes fine adjustment to get it to run right. Try the idle screw, but everyone I know with this mod has your issue. This is less of an issue in the warmer weather, but it seems to be a constant adjustment from what I have seen.

What's idle at warm up 300-500, 500-1000, than back and forth? Than low at it dies.

[xxguitarist]

If it's getting worse at warmup than I am suspect the afr ( 02) and maff. something's off in the metering of the air, but your map should be good for this

So I suspect the iac delete is your issue and you have to adjust idle manually to get it not to die. Total warmup is at 195 degrees and prior to that with the iac removed it might be ok at first, but once the 02 heats up and thermo the ecu is adding the recommend fuel but the iac with a delete is not. I always leave the Iac cause it takes fine adjustment to get it to run right. Try the idle screw, but everyone I know with this mod has your issue. This is less of an issue in the warmer weather, but it seems to be a constant adjustment from what I have seen.

What's idle at warm up 300-500, 500-1000, than back and forth? Than low at it dies.

We didn't delete the IAC, we did clean it (quickly) and re-install.

Idle is around 900rpm when it's stable. Sometimes 2000, sometimes 500.

[metalmaker12]

But your not running coolant to it correct. It should be fine either way if you retained the iac

Could be a vacum/boost leak

Maff or 02 issue, but you have no codes correct

Have you logged at idle and what's your afr

Also check if your coolant system is fully bled, cause that can cause your idle to act iffy

[Tamra]

But your not running coolant to it correct.

correct

[Tamra]

But your not running coolant to it correct. It should be fine either way if you retained the iac

Could be a vacum/boost leak

Maff or 02 issue, but you have no codes correct

Have you logged at idle and what's your afr

Also check if your coolant system is fully bled, cause that can cause your idle to act iffy

For the vacuum leak, what would be a symptom? It seemed like the boost kept a relatively consistent vacuum number during the data log. That is counting on the ecu for that log. We have a real wideband 02 and boost gauge that we will have hooked up for the next run.
We have a code relating to the rear 02 (p0037).
We logged at idle (see link here), but did not capture the AFR. It was hovering around 12 with a correction of -25.
We were not able to bleed the coolant system because we could not get it up to operating temp enough to get the thermostat to open and let it start flowing. Every time it would hit about 200 degrees, the car would die.

[metalmaker12]

I will look at log tomorrow when I have some time. So it turns off just prior to fully warming up?
Does it die even if you push the throttle a bit.

If it was electrical it would pop up right away, so if a code is coming on like two minutes after you clear it and run it might be a dirty or bad sensor etc. also you only need the front 02 sensor ( 02-05 wrx wiring correct). But I would not think this would turn it off. I gotta look at your log to see a trend.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Tamra and Andrew

I'm a visual person so I had to plot out your data.
This is the first 10 second of running


This is the last 10 seconds before it stalled


I'm by no means an expert a reading these. Your timing is bouncing all over the place. In the good old days the timing was just advance by vacuum. You should have a solid vacuum at idle.
Maybe someone else will chime in.
Bob

[Harley818]

Those are awesome visuals Bob.
Maybe a dumb question, but I've never done data logging or analysis but as an engineer the graphs tell the story.
How do I get at data log. Do I need the Cobb V3? or what?

[metalmaker12]

Nice job bob, just saved me some time. Looks like ign timing is being affected. Could very well be a vacum leak guys, vacum should be steady -18 to -22 at idle. I would start there

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Those are awesome visuals Bob.
Maybe a dumb question, but I've never done data logging or analysis but as an engineer the graphs tell the story.
How do I get at data log. Do I need the Cobb V3? or what?

Hi Harley,
I believe Tamra logged the data using Romraider and Tactrix cable ( correction Cobb V3). She posted the data in post 342 above. I just put it in an Excell chart.
Bob

[Tamra]

It was actually a Cobb V3. We are still learning how to use it and will hopefully get a more informative log this weekend, assuming our new tune arrives before then.

We will check for vacuum leaks - we have a few ideas of places that haven't been permanently installed yet (the Forge BOV for example did not have a gasket yet). We'll try to button those up and give it another shot on Sunday. Thank you everyone for your help and ideas.

[metalmaker12]

No prob, here to help. I have been there and it can be frustrating, but you will get it.

[Kurk818]

A great way I've found to find vacuum leaks is to use an unlit propane torch and move it around all sources of vacuum while the engine is running. If the RPMs increase, you've isolated your area of where a leak is present.

[Speedy G]

Mmmm... was the MAF hooked up? I see vacuum, but MAF voltage doesn't change after the car engine is turned off.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

A great way I've found to find vacuum leaks is to use an unlit propane torch and move it around all sources of vacuum while the engine is running. If the RPMs increase, you've isolated your area of where a leak is present.

I assume you do this with the flame OFF.

Mmmm... was the MAF hooked up? I see vacuum, but MAF voltage doesn't change after the car engine is turned off.

The car wasn't turned off, it just stalled. So maf still was outputting a signal.