Andrew & Tamra's 818SR EM Autox Hybrid Destroked Long-Rod Build

[Scargo]

I pay close to $100 a pop for getting tires mounted and balanced. A case of beer would be a bargain!
I don't see a cancellation notice on FFCSCC's site as of this moment...
Man, I am jealous of that S2000. I can see why you snatched it up. At least I have part of one.

[xxguitarist]

Hindsight,
One note- We didn't actually fill the AWIC core. We filled the radiator, turned the AWIC on end, so its feed line was on the bottom & return was on the top, and stuck a shopvac on the return fitting w/ a scrap of hose. This helped hugely in priming the pump the first time. Once the pump was mostly working, leave the AWIC core on end, re-connect the return, and spend a while squeezing, filling, tapping, filling, shaking the AWIC core, filling..

If you have a funnel that will wedge into the radiator fill neck area, it'll make the job (a little) less messy.



Back on today.. we're going to have to brush snow off of the cars to go autox, which apparently is still on

[Tamra]

So we've opted to choose the car with a heater, enclosed body, and all season tires today. 22 degrees and melting snow/ice do not sound pleasant in our go-kart 818. Time to break in the S2000 I guess

There's a test and tune in a couple of weeks followed by an event on Sunday that we will aim for next with the 818.

[Hindsight]

Thx for the additional awic info and good luck today!

[Oppenheimer]

And, while picking up the tire mounter and balancer, I found this gem that happened to be directly in route... went by, fell in love, and took her home. I sold my Mazda 3 about a week or so ago and had been keeping an eye out for an S2000, RX-8, G35, etc. This one is beautiful. All the bolts even have their original plating (we can all appreciate that after tearing apart our rust bucket Subarus), and the rest of the car is just as clean. I think the most salt the car has seen in its life was on the U-Haul trailer during the tow home.

Congrats on the S2000. Allow me to direct you to some helpful tips for new owners:

http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/1020...replace-first/

9k redline, and more hp/liter than all but a 458 Italia. There are more than a few of these cars with well over 300K miles, on all original drivetrain components, with just regular maintenance. Try that with the Ferrari!

I suggest using the Honda OEM oil filter. Generic filters not really designed for such high rpm flow. Also suggest a 0W-30 oil (factory recommended is 10W-30, but that was done at a time when 0W synthetics weren't so common - IMO they would be recommending a 0W-30 if they did the eval with today's oils).

I 3 season DD mine.

If you need any S2K advice or assistance, I am right across the river from you (those houses you can see from the Sikorsky bridge, I live in that complex). Plus it gives me an excuse to see your 818.

How did the S do at the AutoX?

[Frank818]

Great S2000! Nice swap into your next 818!

[metalmaker12]

The s2k is my favorite roadster of all time, with a comptech sc kit it is like magic.

[Tamra]

Thanks for the comments everyone!


Autocross went well today. What an awesome day. It started out icy, so we autoxed my new S2k in the morning (boy is she fun and tail happy). The ground dried up, so we picked up Bug to run for the afternoon (still 30 degrees but sunny). Everything went better than expected! The tune was great (thank you EFI logics!), data logs were flawless, and our home alignment did the trick. Happy, fun, problem free day! I'll post 3 videos in a moment.


The very first outing of the day - Andrew in Bug. Having never driven it (beyond 1st gear around the block) and its very first time ever on the autocross track, it went very well!

Note: the rattling you hear is likely our catch cans rattling against the frame. Not noticeable in person but it's going through the chassis tubes and the go-pro is picking it up. Guess we'll add some rubber to quiet it down.


When you hit play, click on "settings" then "HD" for better quality.

[Tamra]

One of my last runs. Either a 31.1 or 31.2. This car is a BLAST!!! Set up was pretty good. Slight understeer when going in too hot, and oversteer on throttle. Very catchable (unless you use too much throttle and the turbo insta-spools midcorner, which Andrew found out). We have the 500lb springs on the front, no front bar yet.

[Tamra]

Our friend Tim (and owner of the S2000 CR we are co-driving this year), who has been out helping us work on the 818 every Sunday for the past few months (thank you!!!), also took a turn, and ran a 30.5.

[Tamra]

Blooper reels! Andrew learned how quick our turbo spools mid-corner...

[Tamra]

And I learned that manual brakes do not respond as much as power brakes...whoops. Also going to upgrade the brake pads, soon. Current pads are cheapos from Napa that the donor came with.

[Ellimist]

Looking really great, as always, guys!! Awesome find in that S2K, been wanting one myself for a while now.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Blooper reels! Andrew learned how quick our turbo spools mid-corner...

And I learned that manual brakes do not respond as much as power brakes...whoops. Also going to upgrade the brake pads, soon. Current pads are cheapos from Napa that the donor came with

Tamra and Andrew,
Welcome to the spin party. Michael and I have each taken it for a spin a couple of times each. Michael is 40 years younger than I and has quicker reaction time. I have seen him save a spins 5-6 times. Me, not so good.

On the brake issue, I went to bigger dual piston OEM calipers in the rear, with https://www.rockauto.com/catalog/mor...php?pk=2022418 pads. I am happy with the brakes.
Bob

[Scargo]

"Bug" seems to stay extremely flat! Couldn't detect any body roll in the vids. Other impression: The steering seems slow. Lots of steering wheel cranking. How does it compare to the S2000 or other cars on the course?
Ratios? You stayed in second the whole time, correct? Looks like fun!

[Tamra]

Looking really great, as always, guys!! Awesome find in that S2K, been wanting one myself for a while now.

Thank you!

Tamra and Andrew,
Welcome to the spin party. Michael and I have each taken it for a spin a couple of times each. Michael is 40 years younger than I and has quicker reaction time. I have seen him save a spins 5-6 times. Me, not so good.

On the brake issue, I went to bigger dual piston OEM calipers in the rear, with https://www.rockauto.com/catalog/mor...php?pk=2022418 pads. I am happy with the brakes.
Bob

I found the 818 very easy to drive. Easier than the S2k, actually. Nice predictable oversteer on throttle, relatively easy to catch, predictable understeer when too hot. I liked the way it drove quite a lot, aside from the brakes.

Andrew is going to respond in a minute on the brakes.

"Bug" seems to stay extremely flat! Couldn't detect any body roll in the vids. Other impression: The steering seems slow. Lots of steering wheel cranking. How does it compare to the S2000 or other cars on the course?
Ratios? You stayed in second the whole time, correct? Looks like fun!

Bug did stay very flat, as far as we could tell. The steering is very very slow, especially compared to the S2k Ap1 steering rack. The course yesterday was particularly tight too, so it was more noticeable than I think it would be otherwise. We might end up doing something about that, but for now we are going to fix the brakes and get some more seat time. And yes, we stayed in 2nd the whole time. Our goal is to stay in 2nd even on much faster courses. The steering ratio on the S2k is 14.9:1, the Subaru is 16.5:1. Those numbers make it sound like less of a difference than it feels like... the S2k feels like you could nearly do u-turn without shuffling your hands, whereas the 02 Subaru rack feels like you keep turning and shuffling and turning the wheel until you finally get there.

[xxguitarist]

Brakes: First up, I had less troubles than Tamra with them, though I came nowhere near locking up the brakes at any point, so I think there's plenty of improvement to be had, and also some adjusting to the lack of power brakes.
Our race wheels should be showing up soon, and we will have to check fitment of the fronts over the factory 02 WRX calipers before ordering pads.
I don't want to go to a bigger caliper to solve the problem- there's more than enough pad area, piston force, etc to stop a much heavier vehicle, and we don't want additional unsprung weight either.
Assuming the wheels fit over the calipers, we'll first try out a more aggressive pad. I'm partial to EBC yellows. Great cold bite, and they hold up to a LOT before they show any signs of fade. Keep in mind, we're not doing roadcourse driving.
If that doesn't fix the problem, then we'll go to a smaller diameter master cyl. Right now we have very firm brakes, virtually just pressure modulated, almost no travel. We would give up some of that pedal feel, but gain a lot of mechanical advantage on the fluid pressure. IMO, this is the "right" way to fix it, rather than adding more caliper to an already overkill setup (again, for our use)

[Frank818]

Did you guys finally succeeded to align the front camber/caster?
If yes, all you did was to add an alu spacer on the LCA's inner big bolts?

[Hindsight]

Wow! Very happy you were able to run without any issues your first time out. Thats a real testament of your build skill!

[xxguitarist]

Frank,
We have the spacer on the LCA. Top adjustments are bottomed out to minimum each for this first go. I'm sure there's room for improvement, but nothing glaringly obvious to us or our experienced friend.

Thanks Hindsight, us too! I think it might be more credited to checklists!

[Tamra]

Wow! Very happy you were able to run without any issues your first time out. Thats a real testament of your build skill!

Thank you! We were a mix of relieved that everything went well during the first run, followed by overwhelming excitement the remainder of the runs. It went way way way better than we had anticipated. The fact that it was easier to drive than the S2k on its first outing ever is a testament to this car's potential with some more fine tuning and the big one - good tires (and more seat time for us).

Had we not been doing mostly fun runs (not counted for results), we all would have been top 15/top 10 by raw time out of 61 drivers. Not bad for a first outing with the wrong tires and not a real alignment, and learning the car. We were not expecting it to go that well.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Brakes: First up, I had less troubles than Tamra with them, though I came nowhere near locking up the brakes at any point, so I think there's plenty of improvement to be had, and also some adjusting to the lack of power brakes.
Our race wheels should be showing up soon, and we will have to check fitment of the fronts over the factory 02 WRX calipers before ordering pads.
I don't want to go to a bigger caliper to solve the problem- there's more than enough pad area, piston force, etc to stop a much heavier vehicle, and we don't want additional unsprung weight either.
Assuming the wheels fit over the calipers, we'll first try out a more aggressive pad. I'm partial to EBC yellows. Great cold bite, and they hold up to a LOT before they show any signs of fade. Keep in mind, we're not doing roadcourse driving.
If that doesn't fix the problem, then we'll go to a smaller diameter master cyl. Right now we have very firm brakes, virtually just pressure modulated, almost no travel. We would give up some of that pedal feel, but gain a lot of mechanical advantage on the fluid pressure. IMO, this is the "right" way to fix it, rather than adding more caliper to an already overkill setup (again, for our use)

Hi Andrew,
I agree with your approach to the brakes. The reason I went bigger in the rears is to compensate for the weight balance of the car. I was have problems locking up the fronts way to soon. I have a personal problem with adding a proportional valve to the front.

On your next autocross, do some panic type stops at the finish line to see F-R balance.
Bob

[xxguitarist]

On your next autocross, do some panic type stops at the finish line to see F-R balance.
Bob

Now we just need a stop box that isn't at full lock on the steering :-)
Your approach makes sense also. Why aren't you a fan of a prop valve?

That finish was annoying, I do understand it though given that the morning was icy, it guaranteed that nobody came in too hot.

[Frank818]

Tnx for the answer Andrew on the LCA spacer.

[Frank818]

Sorry Andrew, yours are 4mm thick if I recall?

[Tamra]

Hey Frank, yes they are 4mm thick spacers. More spacer = more castor. Just remember if you add a lot of spacer, you should consider getting longer bolts.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Now we just need a stop box that isn't at full lock on the steering :-)
Your approach makes sense also. Why aren't you a fan of a prop valve?
That finish was annoying, I do understand it though given that the morning was icy, it guaranteed that nobody came in too hot.

The Proportion valve reduces pressure to the front wheels. Resulting in more pedal force required for an equivalent stop.

From my initial test, you have to turn down the front pretty far. A prop valve is good for fine tuning. I will not use one for large adjustments.

If I was willing to spend the money, I would have gone to balance bar type master cylinder. Where all your pedal force makes it to the wheels.

With square brakes like I have now, I will still go to a Prop valve for fine tuning. I just don't know yet if it will be on the back or front because I'm pretty close now.

In this video, Michael has a slight lockup of the rear wheels at the 52 second mark.

https://youtu.be/pnpo8Y4rOsg

To make testing easier, take it out on some wet roads.
Bob

[RM1SepEx]

Nice vids Andrew and Tamra, great job. Are all your courses so short? 30 second runs...

[Tamra]

No, they are not all that short. We went to our local club, FCSCC, which is only 5 miles down the road from us. It was held in the small lot yesterday, which is pretty cramped, and on top of that they made the course very tight due to the icy conditions (likely for safety). We will bring "Bug" out to a bigger course to stretch his legs soon The small lot was a perfect first test though.

[Tamra]

Bob, I love your videos. How do you like the FFR steering wheel? We will be swapping out steering wheel after we are street legal.

[Bob_n_Cincy]

Bob, I love your videos. How do you like the FFR steering wheel? We will be swapping out steering wheel after we are street legal.

Hi Tamra
I put the steering wheel on with a NRG short Subaru adaptor. With this set up, the steering shaft hits the horn button. Our non functioning button is now glued into the wheel. I am used to a larger steering wheel. But in this tight (for us) car, we really don't have room for a bigger wheel. The quality of the steering wheel is excellent.
Bob

wheel.jpg

[Tamra]

Sorry for the lack of updates lately. We took a little break, followed by spending some time learning how to use our tire mounter and balancer. My S2000 got some Direzza Z2's last night, and our 818 got R-Comps on our new race wheels today.

We searched for awhile to find race wheels. We wanted 15x8, 5x100 in the front, which is not easy to find unless you go to a fully custom 3 piece ($$$) wheel.

We wanted the 1" drop in wheel size, plus a lower diameter tire, in order to get about a 1" drop in ride height for racing. We are at 4" with the street wheels/tires (17x8 et 45 Enkei PF01 with Direzza Z2's in 235/40/17 and 255/40/17), and about 3" with the race wheels/tires (some rake as the front is lower).

We found some Axe Wheels, 15x8, 5x100, et 25, and ordered a set of 4. Despite being relatively cheap wheels ($600 for the set of 4), they feel like they are of pretty good quality. They're not the lightest or the heaviest at 16lbs each.

We did not think the 15" wheels would fit over the WRX brakes, but we lucked out! Perfect fit. Now to order some EBC Yellow brake pads, since we've confirmed we do not have to order new brackets/rotors.


Clear on the suspension as well:


We have two sets of tires for the front wheels - Hoosier A7's in 245/40/15 ($$$ and therefore saving for big clubs), and Hankook Ventus C71's in 225/45/15 (used, cheap, and will be used on our rough, local, small lot). Pictured are the C71's, with plenty of clearance at full lock.


The Axe Ex-8 wheels next to our Enkei PFO1's.


The rears are Drifz in 16x8, et 25, wrapped in Hoosier A6's in size 245/45/16 (bought on sale from Hoosier for $90/each!!!). They're not a perfect match to the Axe Ex8 wheels (aside from the color), but they are similar enough. We could not find a matched set of fronts and rears in the sizes/offsets we wanted. The Driftz wheels weighed in at 19 lbs.



Plenty of clearance:



Side by side:



We know that the A6's on the rear with the used C71's on the front could create some odd handling characteristics due to the tire differences, but our small local lot is very rough on tires and we will not be using it for set up anyway. For the bigger lots (NNJR and NER), we will run the Hoosiers all around. Since we bought 8 wheels total, we will have one "local" set, and one "big event" set. Eventually, we will run larger tires on the rear, but we are running square to start at the events that matter, and this staggered set locally.

Now to decide to stick with silver or black and paint the other half to match... opinions?

Our next race with the 818 is on Sunday at the local lot again. We co-drove an S2000 CR last weekend at Metlife and all ended up top 20 pax (with the owner #1 pax). We are driving the S2000 at some of the pros, tours, and Lincoln this year, so we are having to choose which car to run at the big lots... we need to drive the S2000 to get us ready for the big events, but also need to drive our 818 to work on set up (and because it's FUN!). It's a tough choice!

[Hindsight]

Wheels sound like they will work just great and while 16lbs may not be light for a nice 15" wheel, they are lighter than the 17s and 18s many of us will be running.

Now wash that salt off your suspension ASAP!!!!!!

How do you like the mounting and balancing setup?

[xxguitarist]

The mount and balance setup is good. I'm ..tired.. after mounting one set per night, since these things have really tight beads. All seasons are on/off in a snap.

We estimated the ROI at just over 1 year. ONE YEAR. Couldn't resist.
We were also having trouble finding someone to mount used tires locally. Now we can run whatever we want to keep budget in check. Just realized after two sets that there's an additional plastic guard that would reduce a little scuffing at the edge of the rim. I'll put that in for the next set. It's exercise, it's a little frustrating, but it's also a fun challenge.
Hoosiers, C71s are a pain to mount, but easy to bead. (under 40 psi for C71, hoosiers were fully beaded at 10!)
Z2s are easy to mount, but sketchy to bead (65 psi) Worth note, that was a 225/50/16 on a 16x6.5, so a fair bit pinched. I'm sure a "proper" fit is easier.

[Scargo]

I bet that's a workout! I'm wondering if you have the machines in your livingroom? Where do you find room for them?
I don't know who you are buying from but I like dealing with Phil's tires service in Cragsmoor, NY 12420, 845-647-7407, They are the official track-side tire support for NASA around here. Great couple to deal with. He is ex-racer and sells lots of 15~16" wheels-tires for Miatas, but perhaps in 5x100 they are very hard to find...

[Tamra]

I bet that's a workout! I'm wondering if you have the machines in your livingroom? Where do you find room for them?
I don't know who you are buying from but I like dealing with Phil's tires service in Cragsmoor, NY 12420, 845-647-7407, They are the official track-side tire support for NASA around here. Great couple to deal with. He is ex-racer and sells lots of 15~16" wheels-tires for Miatas, but perhaps in 5x100 they are very hard to find...

I told Andrew I'm going to buy him belt on weights... he's not heavy enough! The hardest part of the slicks is wrestling them onto the wheel, but then the bead seats easily (10-40 psi). My Z2s were relatively easy to get onto the wheel, but then took slightly sketchy pressures (65 psi) to get the bead to seat (he's going to make a cage before doing any more street tires).

The machines are currently at the front of our 2nd, 1 car garage. They fit with just enough space to squeeze the Miata in too. However, right now the rest of that garage is full of tires and wheels, so the Miata's kicked out in the driveway, which is parked two deep. Our house is only 800 square feet, so no room there either... we might end up moving later this summer. We desperately need more space.


We will definitely contact Phil's Tire next time. We didn't know about him! I doubt he could have found us wheels though... you can get 15x7 in 5x100 (no guarantee of fitment over the Subaru brakes), but we wanted specifically 15x8 in 5x100. Some of the steel wheel racing companies make them, but the highest offset they would go to was 12. We wanted at least 20+ offset so it was difficult to find. There are a few options listed online, but when we went to order we found out the listing was dated and the wheels were discontinued and out of stock. It took us three tries to finally get wheels shipped to us.

[metalmaker12]

Thank you!



I found the 818 very easy to drive. Easier than the S2k, actually. Nice predictable oversteer on throttle, relatively easy to catch, predictable understeer when too hot. I liked the way it drove quite a lot, aside from the brakes.

Andrew is going to respond in a minute on the brakes.



Bug did stay very flat, as far as we could tell. The steering is very very slow, especially compared to the S2k Ap1 steering rack. The course yesterday was particularly tight too, so it was more noticeable than I think it would be otherwise. We might end up doing something about that, but for now we are going to fix the brakes and get some more seat time. And yes, we stayed in 2nd the whole time. Our goal is to stay in 2nd even on much faster courses. The steering ratio on the S2k is 14.9:1, the Subaru is 16.5:1. Those numbers make it sound like less of a difference than it feels like... the S2k feels like you could nearly do u-turn without shuffling your hands, whereas the 02 Subaru rack feels like you keep turning and shuffling and turning the wheel until you finally get there.

I agree the rack ratio is not sharpe enough. I thought of going with a Honda fit rack which is like an 12:5:1 or 11:5:1 and electric power assist.

[Tamra]

I actually just realized that the AP1 steering ratio is 13.8:1 (same as the S2000 CR), and the AP2 steering ratio is 14.9:1.

I'm not sure I would actually want a quicker steering ratio on the 818 than my AP1.. I imagine 11.5:1 would be really twitchy. My S2000 with the 13.8:1 is ultra sensitive as it is.

You quoting my last post reminded me on the brakes - we have EBC Yellows on order. They won't be here in time for Sunday's race, but they will be installed before next weekend. Guess I'll be getting some more leg strength training on Sunday...

[xxguitarist]

When comparing racks, it's worth noting the lever length at the hub- Since this isn't standardized, it's entirely possible to take a rack from a car with a very fast rack, and bolt it to another car with longer pivot-tierod lever length, and wind up with slow steering again.

I don't have this data on any of the above off the top of my head, but it's something we'll have to compare before selecting a rack.

[metalmaker12]

Thanks for the comments everyone!


Autocross went well today. What an awesome day. It started out icy, so we autoxed my new S2k in the morning (boy is she fun and tail happy). The ground dried up, so we picked up Bug to run for the afternoon (still 30 degrees but sunny). Everything went better than expected! The tune was great (thank you EFI logics!), data logs were flawless, and our home alignment did the trick. Happy, fun, problem free day! I'll post 3 videos in a moment.


The very first outing of the day - Andrew in Bug. Having never driven it (beyond 1st gear around the block) and its very first time ever on the autocross track, it went very well!

Note: the rattling you hear is likely our catch cans rattling against the frame. Not noticeable in person but it's going through the chassis tubes and the go-pro is picking it up. Guess we'll add some rubber to quiet it down.


When you hit play, click on "settings" then "HD" for better quality.

I did that a few times lol.....btw Thompson has track nights!!!!