aftermarket ecu that supports DBW ??

[Samiam1017]

What options are out there for complete stand alone engine management that will support avcs,and drive by wire? What dash/gauge options are available with these? What would be required for accurate speedometer readings. Thx

[sponaugle]

What options are out there for complete stand alone engine management that will support avcs,and drive by wire? What dash/gauge options are available with these? What would be required for accurate speedometer readings. Thx

There are a ton. Vipec, Hydra, Motec, Link, Electromotive, GEMS, Cosworth, AEM Infinity, Autronic, Pectel.. just to name a few. Drive by wire is old school these days.. any moderm EMS can support that as well as AVCS.

All of these will work with the factory dash, and most can be made to work with the AIM dashes.

As far as 'accurate' speedo readings, that can be done with a GPS module, or just good calibration of the EMS config. The AIM dash supports GPS based speed as well.

Jeff

[Wayne Presley]

Right now, there are a few but most are rather pricey.

[JeromeS13]

Just curious, what are the reasons for going aftermarket standalone?

[Sgt.Gator]

Along with GPS, the AIM MXL dash can also take speed from the ECU, which I *think* comes off the ABS? They also have two kinds of direct speed sensors, a relatively cheap magnetic one ($66) and a relatively cheap proximity sensor. ($74).

The MXL2 and MXG dashes were supposed to release in Q1 2014 but so far they seem to be unavailable. They look cool though! http://www.aim-sportline.com/downloa...ducts_2014.pdf

[Samiam1017]

I'm being told(still waiting for 100percent verification)that when registered in pa they will be emission exempt. So that means I don't have to use the factory harness. Using a system like Wayne offers will save tons of time and weight and I believe some sort of baseline tune for your setup is included. Wayne does your system wire to factory gauges? I will have to look thru his build thread tonight as I don't remember. Thx

[ExtraTitanian]

Just curious, what are the reasons for going aftermarket standalone?

Feature set mainly. Everything from running dual MAF and MAP sensors to run more accurate AFR's to the ability to self tune, to the ability to automatically swap around fuel maps depending on the quality of gas you're running. I've known more than a few people who've grenaded engines because they had relatively aggressive tunes and a gas station they stopped at had crap gas. Haltech's new Elite has a self tuning feature. Nitrous controllers, meth injection, cutting edge tuning abilities, all fully integrated in one centralized package controllable from pretty much any laptop built within the past 10 years.

[Frank818]

DTA is one, I run it but I don't have DBW.

http://www.dtafast.co.uk/

[Sgt.Gator]

I use a Cobb Accessport to tune my OEM Subaru ECU. Personally the Cobb has all the features I need with the OEM ECU, and it all works fine with my AIM MXL Pista dash.

Jeff (Sponaugle, above) is the expert on this stuff. He founded what eventually became the Cobb Tuning shop, Surgeline. Maybe if you tell him exactly what your build is going to be, and the features you want, he can tell you whether it's worth going away from the OEM ECU + Cobb Accesssport combo to an aftermarket ECU.

I know that for building an H6 3.0 or 3.6 I'd have to go with aftermarket because the Accessport doesn't support that engine. Although I wouldn't be surprised if someone hacks it so it will!

[sponaugle]

Along with GPS, the AIM MXL dash can also take speed from the ECU, which I *think* comes off the ABS? They also have two kinds of direct speed sensors, a relatively cheap magnetic one ($66) and a relatively cheap proximity sensor. ($74).

The MXL2 and MXG dashes were supposed to release in Q1 2014 but so far they seem to be unavailable. They look cool though! http://www.aim-sportline.com/downloa...ducts_2014.pdf

The AIM dashes are beautiful and work very well. They can indeed get speed from both GPS, as well as from the VSS sensor in the transmission. There are also adapters to get speed from the ABS sensors. The older (2002-2007) factory ECUs get speed from a sensor installed in the transmission. The dash uses that same sensor to display speed. The 2008+ cars no longer have that sensor in the transmission and instead get speed over the CAN bus from the ABS controller, which in turn gets that information from the ABS wheel speed sensors.

No doubt unless you are using a 2008+ transmission you will have the speed sensor, and that pulse output can drive pretty much any dash and any ECU.

I'm being told(still waiting for 100percent verification)that when registered in pa they will be emission exempt. So that means I don't have to use the factory harness. Using a system like Wayne offers will save tons of time and weight and I believe some sort of baseline tune for your setup is included. Wayne does your system wire to factory gauges? I will have to look thru his build thread tonight as I don't remember. Thx

If indeed you don't ever have to do an OBDII emissions test, you are free to use pretty much any of the aftermarket solutions. As mentioned a system like Waynes would involved significantly simplified wiring.

Feature set mainly. Everything from running dual MAF and MAP sensors to run more accurate AFR's to the ability to self tune, to the ability to automatically swap around fuel maps depending on the quality of gas you're running. I've known more than a few people who've grenaded engines because they had relatively aggressive tunes and a gas station they stopped at had crap gas. Haltech's new Elite has a self tuning feature. Nitrous controllers, meth injection, cutting edge tuning abilities, all fully integrated in one centralized package controllable from pretty much any laptop built within the past 10 years.

That is something I can appreciate. I have used almost all of the systems I mentioned, and still have personal cars using the Vipec, Hydra, Link, and Motec ECMs. Most of them have a significant number of advanced features, especially in the autotuning department. Things like flex fuel, many map selection, and lot of auxiliary inputs are attractive.

That said, there are *some* of the better features on the most recent factory reflash setups. Things like launch control and flat foot shifting, multiple map selection, speed density, excellent knock control and map retard capability, etc are available on some of the factory ECUs via something like the Accessport ( and to a lesser degree in some cases the Open Source flashes).

No doubt these are not complete replacements for the real aftermarket systems. You are correct that if you want that kind of flexibilty and feature set you may need to use something aftermarket. As for an agressive tune grenading an engine, in 99% of the cases that is a result of tuner error. The modern factory ECUs (in the case of the Subaru market) are *very* good at knock control in all but the most extreme cases. There are a number of safety systems built into those ECUs that can (and should) be configured properly.

Make no mistake I like working with the better aftermarket ECUs a lot, but I also enjoy the challenge of making the factory systems perform better.

I use a Cobb Accessport to tune my OEM Subaru ECU. Personally the Cobb has all the features I need with the OEM ECU, and it all works fine with my AIM MXL Pista dash.
Jeff (Sponaugle, above) is the expert on this stuff. He founded what eventually became the Cobb Tuning shop, Surgeline. Maybe if you tell him exactly what your build is going to be, and the features you want, he can tell you whether it's worth going away from the OEM ECU + Cobb Accesssport combo to an aftermarket ECU.

I know that for building an H6 3.0 or 3.6 I'd have to go with aftermarket because the Accessport doesn't support that engine. Although I wouldn't be surprised if someone hacks it so it will!

Thank you for the complement Sgt. Gator. There are a lot of factors when you are looking at this decisions. Certainly if I knew I did not have to ever do OBDII, and I was willing to invest the time an energy to actually use some of the more advanced features, I would have a difficult decision.

I am putting a factory 2004 STI ECU with an Accessport in my 818 kit car so I can get the car registered (along with a 2.5L built engine), and as soon as that registration is done I will be installing the EZ30R H6 with the Vipec. As you mentioned above there are not any good factory ECUs for the EZ30R that support boosted applications well. There are a few open source modifications to the 1st gen EZ30R ECUs, but they are seriously lacking in many ways.

Hope this helps a bit. If you have more questions, ask away.. there are a lot of smart cookies on here.

Jeff

[Canadian818]

Hey Jeff. What ecu would you recommend for a tuning newbie for the EZ? I was planning on the AEM infinity, thoughts? How good are the "auto tunes"?

[Wayne Presley]

The Infinity system you need is the 8-10 or 8-12 for the AVCS support and DBW. The auto tune works well BUT it only tunes the fuel table and it depends upon getting a correct signal from the O2 sensor. Any air leaks around it and it will tune to the bad info. You also need to know what the timing requirement is on the motor.

[sponaugle]

Hey Jeff. What ecu would you recommend for a tuning newbie for the EZ? I was planning on the AEM infinity, thoughts? How good are the "auto tunes"?

As far as ‘AutoTuning’ goes, there are several different features that fall under that envelop. The simplest and most common is a temporary corrected fuel map. In this methodology the ECM has a target air-fuel table, and during operation it makes changes to the ‘fuel map’ (typically a VE table) based on error between a wideband AFR sensor and the target air-fuel table.

These changes are often stored in RAM, and after some time running with this feature a calibrator can look at the changes, do some smoothing and commit these changes to the final map. The idea behind this kind of feature is that you start with a VE table that will run the car richer then the target AFRs, then you do some variable load driving (some full throttle, some part throttle). Based on the places you traverse in the map the ecu will make changes to the map. You can then fine tune the map, and save it as the final map.

This is really a feature to help you build your VE table, not a feature designed to make continuous adjustments based on changes in conditions, fuel, weather, etc. The Vipec, Hydra, and the old AEM system have this kind of feature. It is useful to help dial in a fuel map, although I personally don’t use it much as I can make faster adjustments by hand. If left on all the time you tend to get a lot of noise in the fuel table.

A much more advanced ‘auto tune’ feature is the ability to do real time fuel corrections at high load and high speed based on wideband AFR sensor feedback. This is sometimes called “high-load closed loop” operation. In this scenario the car has a base calibration (VE table) that gets the fueling close, but in real time a feedback controller is used to make minor (usually limited to something like +/- 20%) adjustments to the fueling. The only logical difference between this method and the first is the speed of operation. Since this is making realtime changes to the active fuel injector duty cycle (instead of being buffered thru a fuel map), you need a precise and well-timed system. It also works best if you have a well built and smooth fuel map as a starting point.

Obviously the best system is a combination of both of these. There are more factory ECUs now that have both of these. For example the Nissan GT-R factory ECU has both, and used the realtime fuel trim feedback at all loads.

The new AEM infinity has the capability to do the second method, and is very configurable as to how aggressively to make changes.

The Infinity is a great setup, and has more features/dollar then almost all of the other options out there. The only downside, and one that is more speculative then factual, is that in the past AEM has often been ahead in features but behind a bit in execution. This is not something I can put a concrete list against, especially for the newer infinity. Based on my experience in the past you had to be prepared to do some debugging, but of course time will tell if that is true for the Infinity. The Vipec/Link, for example, has a few less features but is very robust and predictable.

All of this autotune is only related to the engine fueling, not the engine timing. Each of these aftermarket systems has a unique way of handling ignition timing correction based on knock sensor feedback. The Vipec and Link use perhaps the most typical ‘knock envelope’. You build a calibration of what knock sensor noise level is acceptable, and above that reading timing is pulled. In the Vipec/Link you have control of the window of retard and advance, as well as per cylinder detection and tweaking. I have used it and it works well if setup correctly. It does not do long term ‘learning’, or make corrections to your base timing maps.

The AEM Infinity is very similar in that is has an envelope for each cylinder, and variables that adjust the rate of correction and return. Factory ECUs (Subaru for example), have a more complicated knock system that incorporates not only short term corrections but long term learning, and even adjustments to fueling based on knock activity.

This type of knock correction is meant as a protective measure, not as a long term correction to timing. If you are getting knock retard on a regular basis, your base timing map has problems that need to be addressed.

One nice feature of the infinity is the engine safety system. This allows you to cut power or make other adjustsments based on things like fuel pressure, oil pressure, or overall knock activity. For a first time tuner this is a great idea, and for a track car a real must. These features can be done on the Vipec/Link using conditional tables, but it is not nearly as easy and as foolproof.

To answer your specific question about the EZ30R, I have not used an EZ30R with the infinity yet, so I don't know the timing parameters.. but it appears from other posts that it supports the EZ30R crank signal profile. The Vipec does as well , and I even have starter maps for the EZ30R for that platform. As long as you are willing to put some time in to learn, the Infinity will work great.

The Infinity system you need is the 8-10 or 8-12 for the AVCS support and DBW. The auto tune works well BUT it only tunes the fuel table and it depends upon getting a correct signal from the O2 sensor. Any air leaks around it and it will tune to the bad info. You also need to know what the timing requirement is on the motor.

I may be missing something, but for either the 04-07 EJ257 (4 cylinder) or the EZ30R (6 cylinder), I think you can use the Infinity 6 or 8h. Both of those will do a single DBW (which is all you need), and both do 2 variable valve outputs (which is all you need). EZ30R AVLS is a simple grounded switch so that is easy to do with the existing outputs.

If you wanted to do a 08+ EJ257 with variable valve exhaust as well as variable valve intake you would need the larger 8 or 10 platform as those are the only ones with 4 variable valve outputs.

I might be wrong on this, but the spec sheets seems to support this:

http://www.aemelectronics.com/files/...son_100314.pdf

Jeff

[Canadian818]

Thank you for the quick responses, and for all that detail jeff. I really want to learn to do the tuning myself, so much so that if it costs me an engine so be it. I should've specified that its for a EZ36 and not the 30, not sure if that effects which Infinity system I'll require. I "helped" a friend tune a newer turbo mustang, I have an idea of tweaking the fuel after some data-logging. If the "auto tune" gets that close, then great. I'll have to do some research on timing, and of course more details about the engine that I'm sure the infinity system will ask me.

[Samiam1017]

How about using ABS. Does the factory ecu control this or is there a separate control mod for the ABS? Can the ABS be made to work with the tec-s system? Thx

[Wayne Presley]

The abs is a self contained system, so it will work with any of the ecu's.

[Samiam1017]

Wayne did you ever get your abs working? If so how does it work? Can you pm me details of what's all included with your tec-s system. Thx

[Samiam1017]

Just got back from the inspection station that will do the title work and inspection for my 818. I won't need a obd2 port because it will be emission excempt. So I guess I'll be giving Wayne all my money!

[metalmaker12]

Not to crush the aftermarket worlds ecu dreams, but the factory subaru ecu can support pretty much everything and more you would need to tune this cars engine for racing. Wayne's setup is a good way to go and so is Iwires, or yourself, they will all work well in the right hands. I am not saying that the previously mentioned Ecu's are not good options, just more of a pain to figure out completely than a proven system that is designed to run for ever.