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Exactly
I think it would be more important to beat a Lotus Elise/Exige this appears to be the vehicle this would most likely compete with. Not a Vette or Viper. This is going to be a light weight, track ready car that can be driven on the street. Not a 1/4 dragster.
I know the original question was a comparison to a Vette but my take on the 818 is that it will be more like an Aerial Atom with a full body. The Atom is a killer track car and has a very respectable 0-60 and 1/4 mile time with a similar power to weight ratio. The Atom is lighter though at 1350 lbs. Probably the most impressive stat on the Atom is a 0-100-0 time of under 11 seconds.
Mike............
FFR2100 - 331 with KB supercharger - T5 - 5 link rear 3.08's and T2 Torsen.
Not sure if it will be faster, but I bet it will be quicker. :-)
MKIII #3835 IRS, Anderson Performance 408 Levy T-5 Trans, Team III Wheels
Paint completed November 2010, passed NJ State Safety Inspection June 21st, Tagged and First Drive 7/1/2011
agreed. Quicker is not even in question. Faster depends on transmission. If I do this kit, I'll be using my RS trans, so it won't be fasterOriginally Posted by Someday I Suppose
Why is everyone putting the vette at a $50K car?
A used stock C5, 345hp gets about 18mpg in town and up to 30mpg highway and can be purchased (if you shop a little) for less than $15 grand. You can find them quite often under $20K.
I know we said "Stock Vette", but think about a $15K stock vette with $3K in "breathing" upgrades. Then compare the $18K bang for a buck.
FFR5109 purchased in 2004, on the road since 2007.
Because people are bench racing, and that's what bench racers do, they pay attention to stock performance specs and prices.
Agreed.
This Bench Race: Corvette vs. 818
Misrepresenting values is always the "fudge factor" when bench racing. Guys fudge on HP, ET and value.
I'm stating that a Corvette and 818 may easily be Equal Value.
So there's no reason to state, "Well the Corvette should be faster, better handling, more comofortable or whatever, it's a $50K car"
Bench Racers, same as real racers (including me on both) always compare the value/speed factor.
Stock C5/LS1 Corvette ($15K Value) vs. New Factory Five 818 (projected $15K Value)
FFR5109 purchased in 2004, on the road since 2007.
For speed it is power to weight ratio but for performance/track cornering it suspension and setup (wheels,tires,shocks/coils,camber,castor and weight bias etc)
I completely agree with Dakobra that a similar vintage C5 'vette should actually still be the outright winner for straight line performance up to the $25k mark, which is still an apples/oranges comparison, but at least we're comparing fruit, vice the easier argument of the bottom line patient man's build price of the 818 against an MSRP/Markup priced current Corvette.
I do think that the better target for those looking to tun the 818 should be spending around $25k (the same price range that many competing models, such as the MX5, Genesis Coupe SpecR, and similarly powered FT-86 will fall) for Donor, Kit, and bolt-on performance upgrades that will allow the 818 to stalk a corvette in a straight line, and not compromise its ability to squirt ahead in the twisty bits - so stuff like the transmission selected for the kit, and exhaust components could actually make a pretty difference on this.
In much the same way the Imprezas compete with Mustangs (various trim levels all overlapping in straight lines), just being in the zip code of a Corvette in the latter's domain is enough of an accomplishment.
It's not even built yet, but 0-60 performance is relatively easy to predict. It basically comes down to power vs weight ratio and weight distribution over the driven wheels. Aerodynamics isn't a big factor under 60. Some like to express power to weight ratio as bhp per ton, but I prefer the inverse; lbs per hp, the lower the better. I am feeling ambitious, so I'll compare it to the ZR1, which can rocke to 60 in 3.4 seconds. I am going to assume that curb weights are dry, and guess some values for driver weight and fluids; 270 lbs for the Corvette, 260 for the 818.
base coupe Z06 ZR1 818
curb weight: 3208 lbs 3175 lbs 3333 lbs 1800 lbs
total weight: 3578 lbs 3445 lbs 3603 lbs 2060 lbs
power: 430 hp 505 hp 638 hp 227 hp
lbs per hp: 8.32 6.82 5.65 9.07
Well, with a stock 2005 WRX engine, the 818 is toast. With some modifications, though it could be faster. To match power ratios, the Subie engine would need to produce at the crank, 248 hp for the Corvette base, 302 hp for the Z06 and 365 hp for the ZR1. Tuning the little 4 cylinder to compete with the base Corvette or even Z06 should be fairly simple. To catch the ZR1, your going to need deep pockets, and probably a heavily modified transmission, so you would probably be better off starting with a GTM.
Some of the other factors are speculative. The corvette will have a better power curve, not suffering from turbo lag, and will have some computerize traction control. A good driver can make up for some of this. The 818 will have a big advantage, however in weight distribution. The Corvette has a 51/49 distribution but the 818 maay put around 65% of its weight on the rear wheels standing still.
It better not have 65% of the weight over the rear! I'm guessing around 55%.
Weekends/track days
1997 Camaro SS 380 rwhp/380 rwtq
LT1 Stroked to 396. C5 brakes, suspension work, racing seats, roll bar
Daily driver
1999 Ford F250 Powerstroke 300 rwhp/600 rwtq
Custom intake, 4" exhaust, 80 hp DP Tuner PCM tuning 20 MPG highway!
"It better not have 65% of the weight over the rear! I'm guessing around 55%."
Maybe 65% is a high guess. I don't think it will be much less than 60, though. The aerial Atom has a 40/60 distribution and the Lotus 211 has a 38/62 distribution. The 211 is probably a better comparison, and it does have a lighter engine than the 818. This is not neccessarily a bad thing. The factory 5 GTM is at 42/58. Optimal for the drag strip would probably be around 20/80, but optimal for the track is probably between 45/55 to 35/65. It will certainly have a better ratio than 51/49. This might point to a need, however, for wider rear tires than the front, which would nix using stock wrx wheels.
The weight distribution also points to the need for aerodynamic downforce on the front wheels. Any bloke can push down the rear of the car by adding a big spoiler. Short of adding a big "pikes peak" style snowplow, you can't do much to an existing shape to put force down on the front wheels. Adding downforce to the front wheels was the single biggest driving force in my design. The air intake for the radiator is low and wide and discharges air out the top of the slopped hood. Unfortunately, I don't think that many of the designs took this heavily into consideration.
I suspect that a lot of cars with those big rear spoilers and wings are making the front lift situation worse by overloading the rear. It really should be in balance, front to rear.
A front dam can done in a flexible material and located near the bottom of the radiator rather than way up by the front bumper. That location, being nearer the front axle, is much less of a ramp angle issue.
Just sayin,,,,,, a C6 Corvette,,base at 430 hp, ZO6 at 505 hp and the ZR1 at 650 hp..... none of these cars can hook up all the power for a full out launch. They all use traction control. 0 to 60 times are fun but not a true indication of a "lap" on a road course,,, But on a true road race course,, lets play with 40 mph to 150 mph... My C6 has no major traction problems at that speed with correct throttle control, and the ecu (set in comp mode ) will let you use the full power. Launch traction for 0 to 60 is one thing... the wrx with 4 wheel drive has a big advantage on launch, but, big torque (Corvette) at speed off corners is tough to beat. Lets build the 818 and see what happens. I have raced over 40 years in SCCA, Nascar, Imsa, and I think that weight is the biggest killer of performance.
also, big downforce is created by the front splitter tray under the car, and the angle upwards towards the front wheels. Louvers on the trailing top edge of the front fenders to vent high pressure air adds to front downforce.
Why would you need to contact Cobb? They already make all the hardware, and the software for the EJ20/25. The FF option out of the gate is the existing Subaru option. Nothing would be changed.Has anyone contacted Cobb tuning about the FFR 818 yet? It would be great if they get on the ball early, and offer options to Factory Five right out of the gate when the car is ready to launch.
Drop in the motor, flash the ECU with an upgraded map, Cobb, Opensource, XPT, etc., and off you go.
Ok, I'm a n00b here but here's my 3 cents:
To me the question should be is it reasonable to expect a $20,000.00+ 818 to be able to turn the straight line numbers
of the top sports car in the country thats had 60+ years of development and costs at least THREE times as much?
By your logic we should be bashing the Corvette because the Bugatti Veyron is quicker and faster.
Isn't it more reasonable to look at the 818 and see it for what it will be.
A reasonably priced car with incredible performance for it's price range.
When I first saw the pricing on the FFR kits I did a "IS THAT ALL THEY ARE CHARGING"?
That to me is the key to all the FFR packages plus the superb chassis and lets not forget the dedication of the people involved.
Sounds like 2 cents.
It isn't hard to drop a motor in a tube frame chassis and achieve great straight line numbers by a favorable power/weight.
This isn't expensive to do, nor complicated, not in the slightest. Guys are making similar frames in their garages for their project 7s, etc. all the time. So are kids in college, namely SAE cars.
One is a kit car, with virtually no interior, crude fit and finish, no amenities, no "real body", no warranty, that doesn't have to pass government crash testing, etc. One is a production car, built to a much higher standard, with a much greater content, and that must pass emissions/crash testing.
About the ONLY thing you can compare on a production car (i.e. Vette, etc.) and an 818 is performance. In all other categories, there is no comparison, you're getting more in the production car, and you're paying for it. It is not unreasonable to compare its performance to much more expensive cars, they are much more expensive for reasons unrelated to performance.
Hence, FFR can make an 1800 lb. two seater, while a "real" car manufacturer would be hard-pressed to create a car that light without resorting to exotic materials, and $texas in R&D, with a sticker price of god knows what.
Last edited by prematureapex; 06-18-2011 at 06:28 PM.
Fair enough, it was only 2 cents so here's the 3rd..Sounds like 2 cents.
It isn't hard to drop a motor in a tube frame chassis and achieve great straight line numbers by a favorable power/weight.
This isn't expensive to do, nor complicated, not in the slightest. Guys are making similar frames in their garages for their project 7s, etc. all the time. So are kids in college, namely SAE cars.
One is a kit car, with virtually no interior, crude fit and finish, no amenities, no "real body", no warranty, that doesn't have to pass government crash testing, etc. One is a production car, built to a much higher standard, with a much greater content, and that must pass emissions/crash testing.
About the ONLY thing you can compare on a production car (i.e. Vette, etc.) and an 818 is performance. In all other categories, there is no comparison, you're getting more in the production car, and you're paying for it. It is not unreasonable to compare its performance to much more expensive cars, they are much more expensive for reasons unrelated to performance.
Hence, FFR can make an 1800 lb. two seater, while a "real" car manufacturer would be hard-pressed to create a car that light without resorting to exotic materials, and $texas in R&D, with a sticker price of god knows what.
If we're talking JUST performance and excluding the costs then why even compare the 818 to a Corvette.
Let's compare it to the fastest most exotic car in the world.
Then again, lets not stop there, lets compare it to a 700MPH rocket car used out at Bonneville.
My point is that all things are relative and it's not fair to compare the 818 design to the Corvette because cost has to be a factor.
A $25,000.00 vechicle is within the grasp of a vast majority of people where the Corvette isn't.
Just plain economics and they appeal to a different market although I'll grant you that many from both economic situations would like both.
As to what GM has to go through to get their vechicle to market vs what FFR has to do thats really not a factor of the discussion as that is eachs choice on how to market what they want to sell.
Bottom line is that even if the 818 with a stock motor won't out run the Corvette in a straight line all one would have to do is mod the motor for pretty short money to make up the difference.
Also lets be honest with one another, These two cars are just plain not designed for the same use or market at least as I see it.
One is a high horsepower cruiser/sports car and the other is a no frills low cost build it yourself bottle rocket.
Ok, thats more than one cent..Call it a cent and a 1/2..
I agree these are largely two different buyers, new to new. However I think there are those that will cross-shop kit to used.
For example, myself. I'm looking to change up my track-car in the next year or two. And I was strongly considering used Box/Cayman S's, a used Z06 Vette, etc. These cars can be had in the $25-35k range depending on the model etc.
Being a long-time Subaru guy, the 818 has jumped to the top of the list.
Again, while most "new" vette sales aren't for guys looking for a track rat, a not-insignificant amount of used sales are.
So, for guys with some mechnical sense (enough not to shy away from a simple kit), looking for a track toy, I'd certainly say that there are people who would cross-shop these. Probably not many, but certainly some.
Anyway, for guys like me, performance comparisons are unavoidable. Am I going to spring $15-20k for this, over ____ car (used)? Well, I'm certainly going to be considering how they each perform. And whether or not any cost/performance advantages outweigh the fact that one is a production car, and one is a kit (interior/roof/safetyl/etc.)
Last edited by prematureapex; 06-20-2011 at 06:48 AM.
hit the nail on head....I wouldn't be able to use a fast car, but I sure could use a quick one ...and a lighter car should stop shorter, and change direction better as well...autocross anyone?
Since I've been quite the ambassador of bench racing around here while we bide our time I figure it's only natural that I should chime in.
This really is apples to oranges, but the figures are close enough that I can see how people could put them in the same ballpark.
In the end, what matters is power/weight and how well the car launches. The fact the vette can make it to 60mph in 1st gear is only worth a smudge on the figures. Gearing makes a difference, but you have to realize that the difference is negligible when comparing the difference of 10 extra HP or 100 less pounds.
And from where I'm sitting, a STOCK engine'ed 225hp 818 will loose straight line. It might be quicker in the corners, but that remains to be seen. In reality though, most people will make at least some small modifications which means we need to look at what the vette will get with mods. The LS engines mostly top out around 450-500hp NA without serious work, but the WRX engine will reach 300hp with about equal work as getting the vette to 500. If it's a 2.5 block you can count on getting it to 350 just as easily. More power is probably available but the trans is certainly subject, and that puts us into a whole different world of expenses that we're not really accounting for here.
So at those figures, it's probably a close race, but I have a feeling the 818 will have less problems launching and keeping traction. But then again in these kinds of comparisons it really will just boil down to the drivers. But that said, a 300hp 818 will most likely smother a vette in a straight line, and a 350hp one will tear it to shreds. How many people will actually build them up the those levels remains to be seen though.
Keep in mind guys, the EJ20 is incredibly easy to get, say, 60 hp out of without spending hardly a dime or noticeably decreasing reliability. A $100 cable, your laptop and a free to $50 map will get you 280-290 HP at the crank, even on a gutted stock exhaust (or a $100 downpipe).
I'll probably try hard to find a 2.5l donor, but a 225 whp (that's with AWD, so figure 235 ish whp) setup is virtually free to achieve on the 2.0, and should still prove to be quite fast.
man i miss autocrossing i haven't since i couldn't race in my old class anymore (price you pay for JDM motors)
as for a ~350 HP that is actually quite affordable, a used STI motor runs around 4k, my estimate is with another ~2k in bang for your buck parts ball park 350 is within reason, turbo injectors pump and tuning... granted mine when it made 380+ with AWD TCS and all that does get kinda squirrelly it would be interesting to see how the transition from AWD to MR will affect this for better or worse
Fair enough my friend.
Can we agree that we all like different things and over lap on a lot of them.
I've always been a big beleiver in low weight cars back to 1968 with my first one.
Had a 289 1962 Ford Falcon Ranchero when all my buddies were doing big block Camaro's,etc..
The Ranchero weighed 2750lbs, 289 had a Edelbrock F4B intake with a little 600 Holley,C4 tranny with a 2200 stall torque converter, set of Hooker headers and Accel ignition. 9" rear with 4:30's..
Other than that stock..
You'd laugh at the stories I could tell you of "walking away" from cars with MUCH more power..
Loved that car, wish I still had it.
Did a 73 Vega fastback in 77 on the same idea.
30 over 350 4 bolt main Chev,TRW 11-1's,2.02 angle plug heads,Crane 310 duration/485 lift Hydraulic cam, app 470HP at the flywheel, M22,narrowed 12 bolt with 5:86's and a spool.
Yea, my daily driver..chirp-chirp-chirp around the corners with the spool
Not that it would go around a corner..Taking a curve at speed was taking your life in your hands but boy was it fast in a straight line..
Only got beat once in that car..
A sleeper 70 Lemans with a 455 with Nitrous got me by 1/2 a car 20-120mph..
Should have seen the look on my face as I'm thinking " WHAT the hell has he got in that big boat?"
Back to this, don't get me wrong, I like Corvettes, always have but they are out of my ability to own due to price.
My biggest question right now is do I go for the roadster, the coupe, or wait and see what the 818 is like.
That is of course a moot point if they draw one of the right five raffle tickets with my name on it this coming saturday in Ohio.
What's wrong with having more weight over the rear of the car? It's better for acceleration, it's better for braking, and as long as the roll stiffness distribution accounts for it, it can handle neutrally as well.
Well, according to the calcs out there, my planned 818 would go 0-60 in 2.8 and tear down the 1/4 in 10.5 even carrying my big @$$ around.
Of course, those are all ideal numbers. Likely I'd see 0-60 in mid 3s with quick shifting and the 1/4 would be a stretch to crack the 11.5 threshold for a cage. I have the feeling that it'll be tough to launch this car.
But what I really can't wait for is to flog it on an AutoX course.
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