What turns an ok/good build into a Great build?

[peng155]

Hi Everyone....

I've been working on my build sheet for my Mk4 project.... I've been reading over all of the help me/trouble shooting threads, as well as member build threads. As it's been said already just a bunch of great help, ideas, and really great looking builds on the forum....

For my own build.. I was hoping/planning on purchasing the full complete kit, but due to fund constraints, and other obligations, there isn't anyway I'm going to be able to pony up 25k in one shot, so my alternate plan is to purchase the base kit with the optional chassis powder coating, and factory cut-outs already done.

The plan is to purchase all new parts from FFR, Summit, or one of the other vendors as I progress in my build... My hope is that this project provides me with a lot of fun during the build, a lot more knowledge on how individual car systems operate, and is put together.... something I would be proud to show off, and brag about... and to hand it down to someone in my family when my time is up someday (hopefully that won't be anytime soon, at least not until after the car is done, and I've had my fun with it).

Being a total newbie at putting a car together from a kit, and parts.... I figure won't know unless I ask

So... what are the small things that go into a build... that turns it from good.. to great??

[Gmcole92]

Very interesting question. I'm also new to car building and have learned a lot in the last few months. I suspect you will get a lot o different answers....which is what you will get for most questions you pose. "Great" is really in the eye of the beholder.....but here a few things I have picked up from EdwardB, JeffK, and others:
- Use high quality parts and materials. Don't skip on anything the spins or helps you drive or stop safely.
- Attention to detail. Don't rush, think about the small things and think several steps ahead. Do I want this visible when the hood is open? Research every new segment of your build to learn techniques and solutions from others before you start. Learn from other's mistakes and victories. Look at lots of pictures on the forums
- Think about things that are easily fixed or upgraded later. There are several things I want to do to the car but I"ll push them off because i can do them later and they are necessary for operation of the car
- Start with the end in mind. Find a picture of a car that looks like your vision....print that baby out and look at it all the time. It will help you put things in context and prioritize where you spend your time. Do you really need to spend a month milling a custom bracket for your power steering pump? Do you really want to get into fuel line flaring?

Good luck...this is fun stuff and the people on this forum are unbelievably helpful (but you will always get a lot of different opinions)

[68GT500MAN]

Attention to the details. Everything from properly drilling and riveting the aluminum to electrical. It is never nice to look at an engine and see where fluids have been leaking or glance in the cockpit to see wires hanging below the dash or shimmy openings in the carpet. Take your time and run the brake lines, electrical wires and fuel system lines neatly with proper fasteners spaces appropriately.
Doug

[2bking]

I think its the little things that add up. Like using the rivets on 2" spacing, making symmetrical patterns, deburring the holes, and keeping the rivet lines straight. For fuel and brake lines keeping the tubing straight and making the bends on a mandrel is an example of workmanship. Clamps need to be the correct size for the material they constrain. Neatness in everything such as wiring, gluing, cutting and painting may go unnoticed but the opposite is an attention getter. No excess length in cables, lines, wires, etc. and no lengths that are obviously too short. Don't make a part using the wrong materials because you don't have the right stuff. Wait and get the right stuff and plan on remaking a lot of parts. Usually the first try isn't quite right. Don't try to hide a mistake because you are too lazy to redo something. Back up and make it right. Attitude is everything and you must be willing to sacrifice time for correctness.

[Gumball]

So far, everyone has mentioned "details" or "the little things" and I couldn't agree more. In my build, I took my time to make sure everything was as I envisioned - total build time was 5 years, whew! But, it paid off in one of the best compliments I've received so far - "I don't know what it is, but everything just looks right."

I think that what that person was saying is that no single thing jumped out at him - as a good part or bad part. Said another way, everything just works together to look like a whole, with nothing appearing out of place. That is the result of literally thousands of little things all done with an eye towards balance.

So, I guess my answer would be to pick a theme and stick with it. In my case, I went vintage, so I shunned anything that was not period-correct bling and I went the extra mile to hide modern parts in plain sight.

P.S. The 17"s are only temporary... I have a set of 15"s with Avon tires on them waiting for next Spring... and the front license plate bracket is gone since I passed my state inspection.

[ram_g]

No one has yet mentioned maintainability. E.g:
- Make sure nothing blocks the way to the various grease zerks (keeping in mind the size of a typical grease gun).
- If you mount your brake reservoirs on the firewall, make sure you can get to them to check/refill once the engine is installed.
- Don't apply silicone to the center tunnel cover in case you need to remove it - similar thought applies to how you install the carpet on top of it.
- If you have a rear mounted battery box, do you have enough leverage to lift and reinstall a heavy battery once the body is in place?
- Do you have access to the fuel pump if you have an electrical pump?
- If you're using brake/clutch master cylinders inside the driver footbox (e.g. the complete kit Wilwood setup) do you have an access panel to get to them after the body is on.
- Do you have quick disconnects on all the lights to be able to remove them from the body easily?
- Etc. etc.

I have taken the time on my build to do many of these things but there are still a few that I feel I goofed on. E.g. I recently discovered that the way I installed my radiator fan there is no way to remove and replace it without removing the entire radiator, which is also a PITA the way I did it. So I hope the radiator and fan last a long time!

[Scud67]

Great list ram_g - some things probably not thought of until after the fact!

[bwlyon]

I will expound on a couple of things.
1. Invest in quality tools. The right tool for the right job make the job makes the build go smoother. Some tools that may not be in your tool box may include tubing benders, flaring tool, and pop rivet tool/gun, sheet metal brake, deburring tools, etc.
2. Obtain some .040 aluminum and practice drilling and riveting pieces of aluminum together to get the "feel" of how to install pop rivets. The same applies to bending brake and fuel lines, buy a few sections at an auto parts store and practice bending the tubing in different shapes. This will help build your proficiency level.

[luvaz]

Money. Lots of money.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Money. Lots of money.

I know that is added as humor 'cause it sure aint necessarily true I've seen some builds that had exorbitant amounts of cubic dollars thrown at them that I wouldn't feel safe driving out of the garage and have also seen some straight up donor builds that make you smile simply because they are so well done!

Jeff

[Gumball]

Patience. Lots of Patience.

Fixed it for you.

[Al_C]

This is an important thread for me, too, as I am in the planning stages. I believe it is important to know yourself. To me, the difference between good and great will be my attitude and behavior toward it. If I am unbending in my intentions of doing everything "right", the end result will come out better than if I give in to time pressures, budget pressures, or am impatient to get it done. I think all of the folks who have commented have alluded to that. A big part of this is psychological: if you want it to be great, and have the will to make it so, it will be. (Part of this is for my own benefit - I've been known to cut a corner or two in the past and don't want to do that on this project!)

[Avalanche325]

It is been said very well already. ATTENTION TO DETAIL. Good enough is NOT good enough. I have seen people say they don't worry about rivet spacing and straightness on the floors because you can't see it. That doesn't work for me. Neatness everywhere and the correct materials. If a factory wouldn't use a glob of silicone to hold something on, you shouldn't either.

One other detail I haven't see mentioned. Nothing sharp anywhere! You should be able to stick your hand in, on, and behind anything and not find a sharp edge or corner. That includes the body, every bracket, etc. I took a second to run sandpaper on the edges and corners of every panel. Just enough to soften everything. If I have to pull a headlight out, I am not going to get cut on the cutout. None of my brackets have a sharp corner, even if it is up under the dash.

[Avalanche325]

[/IMG][/URL]

There are a couple of specks on the transmission tunnel. OH, THE FILTH!

[Raceral]

As far as helping you spend your money.. if you car on a budget, I would get the tubular lower control arms, and the aftermarket rear control arms if you run a straight axle. Detail that rearend really good. Detail that motor really good even if its a stock motor. Take things off and clean, wire brush, sandblast etc.
Do what every you have to do to get you a great paint job. Get Halibrand style wheels.
Years later , like most, you will find that the build, the folks hanging out in the garage was more fun then riding it around. Savor the build.

[McObra]

Do a search on "the other forum" for Garage Freak. There is an outstanding build.

[edwardb]

This is an interesting thread, with some good responses. I've been thinking about adding my thoughts, but hard really to narrow down. There are many factors, all adding up to a high quality build. In now nearly 6 years of kicking around this hobby, working through two builds, helping with others, and observing lots of builds at shows including London several times, these points come to mind:

Have a build plan, including intended purpose, budget, time, etc. It may (and likely will) change as you build, but keep it in front of you and keep the build progressing to your plan.

Look at other builds as much as you can. Note what you like and don't like, what looks good and what doesn't, what factors you think separate the build. I have learned tons looking at other builds, talking to other builders, etc.

Have an appropriate budget. Build costs can and do vary wildly. But high cost doesn't always equal the best build. On the other hand, an inadequate budget can lead to decisions that will affect the quality of the build and ultimately could derail the project. This isn't a cheap adventure. Be realistic about what you can afford before you start.

Have the right tools. Tools alone don't guarantee anything. But a missing or wrong tool isn't good. Safety also comes to mind here. Fit the build to what you have or can get. Use the local parts store loaner program if you don't want to buy something. Ask around. Likely others can help or lend you something.

Don't feel like you have to mod everything. I've said this before and I will again. So much of the discussion on the forums is about mods and/or alternate parts that builders (especially new ones) could get the idea that the kit as delivered from FFR and built bone stock is somehow inadequate. It's not! Well executed, it's a solid car that will be satisfying to build and a blast to drive. (I know, if you look at my builds I'm probably not one to say this. I've done my share. But the point is still a valid one IMO.)

Don't be in a hurry. This isn't a race. Don't be intimidated by guys that build a whole chassis in a weekend, build a whole car in a few months, whatever. Experience counts, plus some people are just faster than others. Take your time and go at your speed.

Walk away when you're having a bad day. I've had shop sessions where I caused more damage than progress. When that's happening, best to walk away, cool down, think about what needs to done differently, and come back when you're in the right frame of mind. Could be in a few hours. Could be the next day. Could even mean you need to take a break for a bit.

Don't be afraid to do something over if it's not right or you're not happy with it. I've had the chance to exercise this principle lots of times.

Plan ahead. Always be thinking 1-2-3 steps ahead. Trial fit/mock up repeatedly and as much as possible. I've had some parts I thought I was going to wear out I had them on and off so many times. But sometimes you just don't know until you try to fit something, try the next thing, etc.

Practice first. Whenever possible, especially if it's something you haven't tried before, practice until you're satisfied you can repeat on the real parts, then proceed. Flaring brake and fuel lines is a good example. A lot of guys seem to be intimidated by this. Get some spare tubing and practice until you get the hang of it.

Use the right parts for the right purposes. Many examples. Don't use tie wraps where a hose clamp should be used. Use the right size hardware of the right grade. Many more examples.

Details, details, details. This has been mentioned several times already. Keep things neat, straight, organized, clean, deburred, trimmed, evenly spaced, the list goes on and on. For some of us, that even means things that will be covered and never seen again. But it all adds up to a well thought-out and high quality build. Workmanship counts big time.

Finally, do your homework, research, and ask questions. You will typically get lots of answer and lots of opinions. Value and consider especially those who have real world experience.

Good luck. Hope these are helpful.

[LuckyWinner]

If you are going to order a part and you are not a 100% that its the right one....jump on the forum and ask, or make sure you have a good return policy.

Dont force anything, if it doesnt fit, there is a reason. (most the time)

Walk away if you get mad.

Have a understanding wife, thats a big one, not just because of the money, but how you are going to be talking about your build all the time

Use the Forum!!!!

Be ready to have your build nickle and dime you to death, runs to Ace Hardwear (get a Ace card, I spent alot of money there)

When you get frustrated, remember why you wanted to build a awesome car, and picture yourself driving in it. Once you turn it over for the first time you are going to be very proud.

HAVE FUN

[AZPete]

I agree with these excellent suggestions above but I'll add that it's best to have no deadline. Deadlines are for work only. I'm on my second build and many people ask when it will be done but I won't give them any estimate at all. "I have no idea. I am enjoying the build process so there's no schedule at all."

[stevo7896]

I think you completed the first step.You asked the question. I also have a similar plan for my build (base kit) and want to do the best I can do with whats available . So I'm glad you asked the question ,lots of very useful tips .I do agree on the tip.keep it neat and clean ,even if its not seen . Doing that will reflect in the complete workmanship.

[Jester]

Good feedback on this post.

A good build vs a great build is somewhat subjective and depends on your experience and expectations. I would guess that no one starts out thinking that their build will be anything less than great and I suspect that most if not all owners believe their FFR is great. The motivation for building a FFR is different for everyone and motivation and budget have a large impact on all builds. However, knowing the ride characteristics of these cars and the range of ride/experience possibilities will give you the first hand ability to make better choices so the end result will meet your expectations and budget (IRS vs 3,4 or 5 link, 15's vs 17's, ps, pb, exhaust, dash and interior layout, etc,etc.). Find a few FFR's in your area and ask the owners for a ride (passenger seat only). You need to spend some seat time in these cars to fully understand each car vs what you plan to build. Once you get past the initial adrenaline rush you will be in a better position to assess the cars characteristics vs your build plan/expectations and this will pave the way to a great build.

Good luck!

[VdubJoe]

No deadline and lots of patience and have fun.

[DaleG]

Do a search on "the other forum" for Garage Freak. There is an outstanding build.

Also edwardb's build.

[Holgate]

Chris,

LOVE your car! I am working toward more of a "toned down" vintage build as well (within cost constraints). I may copy a couple elements from yours! (Remember, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery )

Shannon