Brake pedal question

[Ray W.]

I'm going with an automatic transmission, and as such only need a brake and accelerator pedal. Is there any reason why this wilwood pedal wouldn't work in place of the mustang pedal box?


http://www.wilwood.com/Images/PEDALS...40-1290-lg.jpg

[superjoe]

hi ray, what Automatic transmission are you going to use? I'm also thinking about it.

[edwardb]

I'm going with an automatic transmission, and as such only need a brake and accelerator pedal. Is there any reason why this wilwood pedal wouldn't work in place of the mustang pedal box?

I see from previous posts that you're building a Mk4. You do know that FFR is now using only Wilwood pedal boxes? I'm assuming a Mustang pedal box can still be used, but for one thing it wouldn't have the dual MC and balance bar capability of the Wilwood.

The one they use is a Wilwood 340-11299 with a special bracket so it mounts to the frame. It would be easy enough to leave the clutch pedal and related pieces off this pedal box. The one you linked may work, but would require some special fabrication to install, from what I can see.

[Ray W.]

I see from previous posts that you're building a Mk4. You do know that FFR is now using only Wilwood pedal boxes? I'm assuming a Mustang pedal box can still be used, but for one thing it wouldn't have the dual MC and balance bar capability of the Wilwood.

The one they use is a Wilwood 340-11299 with a special bracket so it mounts to the frame. It would be easy enough to leave the clutch pedal and related pieces off this pedal box. The one you linked may work, but would require some special fabrication to install, from what I can see.

Thanks for the reply, Edward. The main reason for exploring this avenue is cost. The pedal is $68.00 (+a 45.00 installation kit) at Summit Racing, and the box FF uses is (suggested retail) 244.00. I don't think the bracket you mentioned comes with the base kit, so that would be an additional cost, as would the remote brake reservoirs.

I don't have my car yet, but judging by what I've seen in pictures, I think I would only have to fabricate a brace that would attach to the top of the pedal box and reinforce it-maybe a simple L-bracket that also attaches to the steel firewall plate and bolts to the top of the box? It doesn't look complicated to me, but I may be missing something.

I'm using 11.65 rear brakes with 86 SVO rotors and calipers on fox spindles, so I'm leaning toward using a wilwood tandem master cylinder (1" bore, 50/50) and their proportioning valve with the built in brake light switch. From what I've read the proportioning valve isn't really necessary when running PBR front brakes with the 11.65 rears, but I'm guessing that it might be slightly beneficial in my case.

[Ray W.]

hi ray, what Automatic transmission are you going to use? I'm also thinking about it.

I'm going with a manual valve body C-4, and using a performance automotive bell housing to mate it to the 4.6 modular. This is a budget build, and an AOD would cost an additional $1000. Mike Forte is building a 2.73 rear end for my car, which by my math, must be pretty close to what the original cars had. If their top speed was around 170+, and the top loader four speed was a 1.0 to 1.0 ratio fourth, (the C-4 also has a 1.0 to 1.0 ratio third gear) it had to be a tall gear. Using the tremec gear calculator, the 2.73 would put me at 155 MPH at 5500 RPM. 6000 RPM = 170 MPH Of course, that's ignoring the parasitic power losses of the automatic transmission.

[superjoe]

I'm going with a manual valve body C-4, and using a performance automotive bell housing to mate it to the 4.6 modular. This is a budget build, and an AOD would cost an additional $1000. Mike Forte is building a 2.73 rear end for my car, which by my math, must be pretty close to what the original cars had. If their top speed was around 170+, and the top loader four speed was a 1.0 to 1.0 ratio fourth, (the C-4 also has a 1.0 to 1.0 ratio third gear) it had to be a tall gear. Using the tremec gear calculator, the 2.73 would put me at 155 MPH at 5500 RPM. 6000 RPM = 170 MPH Of course, that's ignoring the parasitic power losses of the automatic transmission.

thanks Ray. I'm still learning how to build a car and not quite understand everything for a car yet, not quite catchup with you. Do you mean a AT like TCI StreetFighter Transmissions 511200 or you use other, I want to see more options so I can make my decision and not a lot of people use AT in MK4. BTW, who is Mike Forte, I saw this famous name on this forum a lot of times but still didn't know. thanks.

[edwardb]

Thanks for the reply, Edward. The main reason for exploring this avenue is cost. The pedal is $68.00 (+a 45.00 installation kit) at Summit Racing, and the box FF uses is (suggested retail) 244.00. I don't think the bracket you mentioned comes with the base kit, so that would be an additional cost, as would the remote brake reservoirs.

I don't have my car yet, but judging by what I've seen in pictures, I think I would only have to fabricate a brace that would attach to the top of the pedal box and reinforce it-maybe a simple L-bracket that also attaches to the steel firewall plate and bolts to the top of the box? It doesn't look complicated to me, but I may be missing something.

I'm using 11.65 rear brakes with 86 SVO rotors and calipers on fox spindles, so I'm leaning toward using a wilwood tandem master cylinder (1" bore, 50/50) and their proportioning valve with the built in brake light switch. From what I've read the proportioning valve isn't really necessary when running PBR front brakes with the 11.65 rears, but I'm guessing that it might be slightly beneficial in my case.

Pretty much figured this was a cost discussion since you don't need the clutch pedal. Maybe others can chime in. Certainly possible to fabricate most anything. I've seen some guys on here do some amazing things. Not sure what your skills are. Personally I would be very cautious about anything with the brakes. The brakes you're describing were originally designed to be power brakes. I had them on my Mk3, and with vacuum power and a regular MC worked great. No proportioning valve either BTW. Without power assist, everything needs to be exactly right including the MC, the brake pedal leverage, and in some cases guys have gone to more exotic pads. I'd personally be pretty careful about introducing something new into the brake equation.

[Ray W.]

Pretty much figured this was a cost discussion since you don't need the clutch pedal. Maybe others can chime in. Certainly possible to fabricate most anything. I've seen some guys on here do some amazing things. Not sure what your skills are. Personally I would be very cautious about anything with the brakes. The brakes you're describing were originally designed to be power brakes. I had them on my Mk3, and with vacuum power and a regular MC worked great. No proportioning valve either BTW. Without power assist, everything needs to be exactly right including the MC, the brake pedal leverage, and in some cases guys have gone to more exotic pads. I'd personally be pretty careful about introducing something new into the brake equation.

I'm sticking with manual brakes. The wilwood pedal is a 7 to 1 ratio, which (according to my research) is optimum for manual brakes, and in line with the brake pedal mods often mentioned on this and the ffcars forum. The tandem master cylinder is the equivalent of the 94 cobra master cylinder (except for the 1/16" larger bore diameter), but doesn't have the steep angle built into the reservoirs. The Jeep master cylinder that many use is a 1" bore. My only concern was whether or not this pedal box would interfere with something else in that area. I wouldn't consider myself a master fabricator, but I have built motorcycle frames from scratch before. A little bracket doesn't intimidate me, but at the moment I don't have a welder at my disposal. I do know a good welder, though, who is a friend and charges reasonable rates. The bracket I'm picturing in my mind's eye wouldn't require welding, but we'll see what happens. I just ordered the pedal and some additional parts from Summit.

This past weekend I made my dolly, and then built a removable body buck on top of it, so I could use it throughout the build process, including body work and paint. I'll post pics tomorrow--if the rain will let up enough to "stage" a couple pics outside my workshop. Forgive me for this pic being off topic, but it does represent what I'm capable of. This is one of the motorcycle frames I built.

79920.jpg

[Ray W.]

thanks Ray. I'm still learning how to build a car and not quite understand everything for a car yet, not quite catchup with you. Do you mean a AT like TCI StreetFighter Transmissions 511200 or you use other, I want to see more options so I can make my decision and not a lot of people use AT in MK4. BTW, who is Mike Forte, I saw this famous name on this forum a lot of times but still didn't know. thanks.

That TCI transmission is exactly what I have in mind, but with the "street rodder" torque converter, which only raises the stall speed 300 to 400 RPM over stock. I'm not building a drag racer, and would prefer to keep the RPM lower (and the exhaust quieter) when easing away from stoplights. (especially when there's a police officer beside me in the turn lane) Mike Forte is the brains at http://www.fortesparts.com. He has a great reputation on these forums. My personal experience at this point is limited to a few phone calls, but he seems like a great, and very helpful guy. I'm looking forward to doing business with him now and in the future.