80% sold on building an 818S. What donors work best?

[mikeford]

Hello everyone.

I have been thinking about building an 818 for a year or so. As of today, I'm 80% committed.
I have never built a car, but do almost all of my own maintenance going back to high school (Mercury Tracer, Toyota Corolla, Porsche 924, Ford Taurus, Porsche 911).

My question is if I move forward, what donor should I be searching for? In a perfect world, I'd like 300 hp and 2k lbs. I don't live in a perfect world.

The Factory Five order a car site says 02-07 Impreza or WRX.

I see guys/girls here using Foresters and STi cars, even though the STi is specifically listed as not a compatible donor. I've read the 06 is best due to aluminum LCAs.

Whats the straight scoop on what to buy wrecked?

Thank you in advance.

[Quiny]

If I were do it again I think I would go non-turbo. Less complexity more fun.

[Hindsight]

You can get the aluminum LCA's for mid $300 for the pair so that shouldn't influence you too much. 06-07 are a really good choice. You get the 2.5 instead of the 2.0 and you get drive by wire.

The 04-07 STI is another good choice but you'll have a little more tasks and modifications to make it work. Nothing crazy though, and several people here are doing it so you'll have plenty of info by the time you get started.

[wleehendrick]

For most people, I think O6 and 07 wrx are ideal, but dont pass up a good deal on an older car. I got an 06 wrx wagon and have gone with 'stage 2' upgrades and a Cobb AP for tuning. There are numerous differences in those years which make them preferable for a mildly modified build, imho: 2.5l, better oil pan, DBW throttle, etc... If you're going nuts with upgrades, or have specific motor plans (JDM, electric, whatever) its less important as you can get anything for the mundane parts as youll probably be upgrading or replacing the brakes, turbo, ecu, etc...

[metalmaker12]

I like the power of the wrx turbo and the aftermarket world, but an na build would have been just as fun and much more reliable and cheaper in this platform. If I have any issues with my current setup I am going to sell my built turbo ej and get a couple used na EJs and just enjoy the cars handling and be more reliable. So if you wanna have less complications and not break the bank go na bro

[philly15]

If I had to do it all over, I wouldn't use a donor at all. I would run an ej207 with a stand alone engine management system. The 2.5L motor is so prone to multiple overheating issues that just don't exist as much the 2.0L motors. In this application I fear my 2.5L out of my 06 wrx will probably have issues down the line somewhere. On top of that, I feel there isn't a great turbo choice for the 2.5L in this application. Almost any part that makes the 06-07 the "best" donor can be sourced easily and cheap from salvage yards, ebay, and forums such as NASIOC. The ej207 is ideal in my opinion, purely do to the shift in power band due to the higher redline, and less low end torque, plus you can get some monster numbers in the stock platform, keeping it reliable and still fast as heck. For what I spent making my 2.5L indestructible, I should have just bought a 207 or built a USDM 2.0L.

[metalmaker12]

If I had to do it all over, I wouldn't use a donor at all. I would run an ej207 with a stand alone engine management system. The 2.5L motor is so prone to multiple overheating issues that just don't exist as much the 2.0L motors. In this application I fear my 2.5L out of my 06 wrx will probably have issues down the line somewhere. On top of that, I feel there isn't a great turbo choice for the 2.5L in this application. Almost any part that makes the 06-07 the "best" donor can be sourced easily and cheap from salvage yards, ebay, and forums such as NASIOC. The ej207 is ideal in my opinion, purely do to the shift in power band due to the higher redline, and less low end torque, plus you can get some monster numbers in the stock platform, keeping it reliable and still fast as heck. For what I spent making my 2.5L indestructible, I should have just bought a 207 or built a USDM 2.0L.

Agreed the ej207 is hands down the best engine subaru has made and the best engine to go in the 818, but am na motor would be a good choice also.

I have spent 3,200 on my v8 207 and just added 4k in parts etc but now it's really durable to around 5-600 hp. I am only going to make 3-330whp max

[FFR-ADV]

Looking back, I would get a non-northern winter salt impacted donor. I am getting there with my New England 2004 WRX Wagon donor which I drove for a year before the 818 was available, but it takes a lot of time to break free rusty (sometimes cut out) and to clean up and paint the donor parts. When picking the ECU (Subaru or aftermarket) make sure you consider what it will take to register in the your State (or one you might move to). i have benefited from the many great path finders who have already posted here. Their build threads are an excellent resources for seeing the various paths.

Most of all: Have Fun!

[RM1SepEx]

No answer possible, too many variations... depends on what you need, want, find

[Hindsight]

Agreed the ej207 is hands down the best engine subaru has made

I have heard this a few times now but haven't been able to find a lot of info on why some people say this (including various searches). What are the issues that the EJ255/257 that the EJ207 don't have?

[philly15]

I have heard this a few times now but haven't been able to find a lot of info on why some people say this (including various searches). What are the issues that the EJ255/257 that the EJ207 don't have?

First off, head gaskets. The 2.5L Subaru motors had more issues with head gaskets in the 2.5L vs the 2.0. The other main issue was ring land issues in the 2.5L, usually becomes more of an issue when modifications get added. The 06-07 wrx 2.5L had a slightly higher compression ratio as well. In our personal experience, they don't tune that well on 91 octane vs 93 or anything higher. My friends and I have e85 readily accessible, so most of us run that for the higher octane. However, if you take the time to replace head gaskets before they come an issue, you should be alright. On top of that, it seems the biggest issue is keeping the intake temps lower to prevent overheating. The good thing is that it wont take a whole lot of modifications or power to make the 818 go, so the reliability shouldn't be too much of an issue. In my opinion, the 2.0L motors both USDM and JDM are just better balanced, and run smoother. Plus I really like drive by cable of the USDM motor over the drive by wire 2.5L, but that's just personal preference.

[philly15]

Agreed the ej207 is hands down the best engine subaru has made

I'll throw the ej22T into that mix as well if you can find one in decent shape that is

[Hindsight]

Thanks Metalmaker. So regarding head gaskets.... Are you suggesting to replace with new OEM or aftermarket? If aftermarket, do you have any suggestions? If OEM, I assume the original gasket design has since been improvef upon and is now not prone to failure?

[Tamra]

The shop where we had our engine machined at said that many head gasket issues come from a poor surface (not flat, pitted, etc.) between the block and the heads. I think I remember them saying something about a spot on the heads that frequently ends up slightly warped over time on most of the Subaru heads they work on. They recommended decking the block and resurfacing the heads, since we were already getting other work done. Other people theorize it is something with the head bolts. We picked up ARP head studs also just to be safe. I don't think it is an issue with the gaskets themselves, typically. We went OEM.

If you already have your heads off your engine, you should be able to check flatness and inspect the surfaces.

[metalmaker12]

I'll throw the ej22T into that mix as well if you can find one in decent shape that is

Agree the 2.2 is full closed deck and a potential monster engine!

[metalmaker12]

Thanks Metalmaker. So regarding head gaskets.... Are you suggesting to replace with new OEM or aftermarket? If aftermarket, do you have any suggestions? If OEM, I assume the original gasket design has since been improvef upon and is now not prone to failure?

Oem head gaskets are fine, any gasket will fail if engine is not cooling correctly. Stock rebuilt heads or more,Arp head studs, forged pistons (cp, Je etc), stock/ aftermarket rods ( or Sti rods are good) along with an Aos, KB pan pickup and baffle and proper tuning goes a long way with these engines.

Deff check for flatness on heads and block half, the ej205 and ej255,57 have some issues with warping it seems.

The ej207 and ej22T ( forgot code) then to have less warping issues. I blew both head gaskets and my heads were pretty flat, go figure. But my friends Usdm Sti blew head gaskets and the heads were junk. The blocks are different in design and contribute to this.

[Hindsight]

Thanks for the info Tamra and Metalmaker. With 63k miles on my donor 2.5 and my initially sticking with a stock turbo and a tune, I may leave things as they are for a little while and just keep a close eye on all temps. After the car is sorted, I plan on upgrading the turbo and at that time, I'll be doing pistons, bearings, gaskets, head studs etc.

[Jaime]

06-07 have a better ECU (32 bit) and drive by wire throttle that's easier to install in an 818. On the other hand, they have an air pump. If your state requires you to keep the emissions gear that was on the original car, you may be stuck with that ugly lump.

[STiPWRD]

Also, isn't there an immobilizer in the 05-07 model years that some people have had issues with? As long as the donor is running prior to disassembly, this shouldn't be a major problem.

I've been plenty satisfied with my 02 donor but have also sold off many of the original parts and upgraded to my taste.

[Brightside]

Thank you all for the info in this thread. I am a long time FFR fan with a dream of building an MK4 Cobra... Since the 818, I have really gotten excited about this as a first build. I am working a plan to buy a donor WRX (or STi) and drive it for a few years while saving and planning my build. I need some hands-on experience with the engine and drivetrain, and figure learning while it is in a donor (that I can take to the shop to fix if I mess it up) will be easier.

Based on what I am hearing, most straight forward build would be off of a 2.0L Impreza or Turbo WRX. Not sure I need the complexity of the STi or even the 2.5L for that matter...

How big of a performance difference is there between the 2.0L Turbo, the 2.5L NA, the 2.5L Turbo? Not building a race car, just want a fun and fast street car.

Thank you.

[Jaime]

Pretty much all of the non-STi turbo engines up until the current one make 225hp at the crank stock. The different engines give you different options to upgrade. All the 2.5L engines give you better low end than the 2.0L engines. A lot of differences are in the details - some have nitride cranks, some have better heads (JDM engines in particular), AVCS, block strength (open vs. closed deck).

No extra complexity for 2.5 vs 2.0. The six speed is officially supported now, but not with STi steering knuckles, so you'd have to spend a few hundred dollars on either drive shafts or knuckles. Build what you want - the little details aren't a big deal. You're going to drop a lot more money on the paint and wheels you want than any of the mechanical incompatibilities.

[Brightside]

Thank you Jaime! This opens up my donor search...

[wleehendrick]

An STi donor presents a lot of complications. FFR has a kit for the 6-speed coming, but not the hubs, so an STi donor would require sourcing standard WRX hubs, or fabricating custom axles. If you're looking for a straight-forward build, STi is not it!

Any turbo donor will produce a 'fun, fast street car'. Even un-tuned, you'd be well under 10 lbs per hp. A NA will be quick, but not fast (in a straight line) compared to how fast modern sports cars have become. Since the 818 chassis is so capable I really think that eventually most people will want more power (who doesn't?) and be frustrated since there's less aftermarket support and potential for the NA motors. Just my opinion.

The 2.5l isn't necessarily more complicated. As mentioned, the DBW makes it easier to install, and the up-pipe has no cat. For a street car with a stock turbo, having the torque come on sooner is an advantage.

[Pearldrummer7]

It's been said, but a non-rusty one. Makes a huge headache for re using parts. Whew.

Best of luck!

[Louisromersh]

So this has been a very interesting thread for me to read because I'm in the same boat as mikeford with not much car building background.

But now I'm torn between 2.0L WRX or STi and I like the idea of the STi just because it is a assume car already and
looking in to buying a car and driving it for a spell and then use it as a donor.

But after reading the following threads I really believe the STi can't be that hard

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...the-sti-update

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...l=1#post175059

and for the front knuckles Sponaugle's does cover that in his thread link below Post #117.

http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...30R-818S/page3

And my Idea to fix the knuckles is take them to work and get them machine down to fit by my machine shop but that my be a bad idea but I don't know.

[flynntuna]

One thing to consider is that the STI will have a premium price no matter were you get it from.

[Hindsight]

One thing to consider is that the STI will have a premium price no matter were you get it from.

You aren't kidding there. When I was looking for donors, I was seeing totaled STIs in REALLY poor shape (high miles, lots of rust, thrashed interior) go for over $12k at auction. Just insane. For that kind of money, you would be much better off going with the WRX, selling the non-STI parts you need (like engine and transmission), then getting an STI engine and transmission from a junkyard or whatever. The only thing I really want from the STI is the dual AVCS for the earlier spool. 6 speed is too many gears in a car as light as the 818... but that's just my own preference. 6 speed is way more durable than the 5 speed though.

[Louisromersh]

I also agree with Hindsight that the 6 speed would be nice but also considering automatic trans as a option and I think that open a hole new cans of worms.

[Hindsight]

An automatic 818 is already on the road in Hawaii.

[philly15]

I think the 2.0L is more than enough motor for the application. Sure the 2.5L has AVCS, but really how much down low power do you want in a car that weighs 1800-2000 lbs, with very minimal drivetrain loss? The hardest part for me to overcome in this build was trying to think from that perspective. Ive owned 4 wrx's and have driven many different Subaru paltforms, and I always translate numbers from a Subaru platform to an 818. On the other hand I've driven/rode in a lot of other very fast cars. Naturally I wanted the fast thing possible, so I went with the 2.5L motor. Afterwards, I realized maybe having the 2.0L would be better, and ideally an ej207. Once you get into modifying a 2.5L, you have to consider what kind of tires you'll need to even put the power down, same goes for brakes, suspension, etc. So I would definitely do some more research and maybe see if it would be possible to get a ride with someone who already has theirs built to get an idea of what you're going for. Heck if you still want a 2.5L i'll gladly sell you mine so I can buy a 207! I wouldn't under estimate the 2.0L, they put down some pretty sick numbers stock. My favorite wrx to this day was an 03 with a whole bunch of bolt ons, a vf39 STi turbo, some really good tuning, and the JDM version 6 STi rally gears in the trans. That thing pulled hard like no other, and it was all on 93 pump gas. On the other hand a good friend of mine has one of my old 02 wrx's that put down over 300 whp and 330 ft lbs of torque on e85, all with around 190k miles with no issues, now put that into a car with half the weight...

[the_tool_man]

How would an EZ30 H6 factor in, assuming you weren't looking to mod for max HP?

1: More torque/HP than and H4 (stock for stock)
2: Non-turbo simplicity
3: 10x better sound

The biggest issue I see is that these were only available in auto-trans cars. If you want a manual, like I do, you have to source the engine or transaxle separately.

[longislandwrx]

buy a west coast/southern donor car. no rust. no salt. pay more for it, be thankful.

most people on there are doing 4cyl turbo cars... so if you want the most support go with the force majeure.

Aluminum control arms are a non issue, new ones can often be had for around $250 for the set.

a 2L car has numerous advantages. That's where I would start.

[Wayne Presley]

How would an EZ30 H6 factor in, assuming you weren't looking to mod for max HP?

1: More torque/HP than and H4 (stock for stock)
2: Non-turbo simplicity
3: 10x better sound

The biggest issue I see is that these were only available in auto-trans cars. If you want a manual, like I do, you have to source the engine or transaxle separately.

My 818 has an EZ30 in it with a 5 speed and it was no problem

[mikeford]

So I'm up to 97% sold. And I'm in the south, so anything close enough to get is rust free

After reading your thoughtful replies, I'm open to a 2.0 for my first build. May be only, may be one a year. Who knows?

Today, I just got at lead on an '02 WRX with issues due to "weather". 230k. 5 speed. Sitting for 2 years.

Now I'm still getting information, because "weather" could be flooded, or a tree fell on it, or struck by lighting.

But it is $2k. I have no idea what to look for in a sitting 2 year car that I plan to disassemble. Any suggestions as to what to look at/for? Thank you for your awesome assistance!

[Wayne Presley]

Hmmm, I don't know about a car that's been sitting for 2 years. TUrn it over by hand first and feel for any crunchy sounds/vibrations. If that's ok then compression test. I have an 06 motor that was sitting for a while and the rust in the bottom of the cylinders was bad.

[xxguitarist]

I would want to know that all wiring worked for sure, even at $2k. It's bad enough having to figure out what went wrong in the wiring diet if something doesnt work, and we started with a running/driving car.

I'd add that you only buy what you see. Built motor? no value add (especially since ours wasn't!) unless the seller can prove who did the build, when, with what parts, and itemized receipts and photos to go with.

Sitting for two years, I'd plan on a pretty full rebuild of anything rubber. 230k mi, i'd plan on a rebuild of the motor, and a new turbo. It gets expensive quickly enough.

Datapoint: We have sold around 6k of things from our 02 donor with some upgrade parts.

[mikeford]

Apparently its sheet metal is beat up by falling tree branches, a window broke and the wet interior "smells like a swamp". It runs with a jump start. All according to the seller.
It's 3 hours from me. I'm equivocating on taking a look at it. If was closer, absolutely. If I was sure it ran, probably. If it ran and had a 100k, I would already have it.

Would you guys go see it? I also would have to rustle up a trailer, so there is that complication, and I don't have a reason to go to that city anyway.

[Wayne Presley]

I have a 32,xxx mile 2006 and a 77,xxx mile 2007 WRX donors in stock.

[David Hodgkins]

Mike, you might want to give Wayne a call about one of those pallets. Heck, I should give him a call about one of those pallets!

[wildhorsesracing]

I bought an '02 WRX 2.0L Turbo donor and so far everything has been pretty straight forward except the axles. The kit comes with adapter shafts to make axles out of the donor's axles but if your donor has ever had it's axles replaced then the ends will not fit the OEM adapter shaft.

I bought new quality axles from Autozone and NAPA but alas the spline count or the cage was different and they wouldn't fit the shaft that FFR sends you.

We went to a local shop (The Driveshaft Shop in Salisbury NC) that claims the specialize in Factory Five Axles and after 4 months they made a perfect set of Subaru front axles - but you need the front inners and rear outers on the same shaft.

Pardon the pun - but the axles are a weak link in the kit. I would focus on sourcing the axles the day you start the kit because it'll take that long to find what you need.