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Thread: Brake effort?

  1. #41
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    Anyone running the Wilwood pedal box with Subaru brakes? If so, how is the brake effort with that setup?

  2. #42
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    I posted this in my build thread but thought I would add it here as well. I have experimented with moving the brake pedal hole up higher. I've moved it up 1 1/4" above the OE hole, and also 7/8" above the OE hole. The 7/8" position seemed to me to be the perfect balance between pedal feel and pedal effort. The 1 1/4" was way too spongy and it felt like it ran out of travel. This is with stock 1" master with 4 pot front and 2 pot rear stock 06/07 WRX calipers. You may need to remove the brake pedal from the pedal cluster in order to drill the hole at 7/8".

  3. #43
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    Not to bump an old thread, but my 818 has the higher hole drilled on the brake pedal - pedal is still far too stiff for my liking. So, looks like I am going with the Nissan 7/8" master cylinder swap... perfect time as I plan to be adding STI Brembos as well... below is some info I found on the Subaru master cylinders:

    02-05 WRX MT = 1 1/16" or 26.99mm bore diameter
    06-07 WRX MT = 1" or 25.4mm bore diameter
    04-07 STi = 1 1/16" or 26.99mm bore diameter

    Hope this helps someone considering/dealing with the same issues.

  4. #44
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    I wasn't happy with just the higher pedal placement. Ended up going with the 7/8" master and some much more aggressive XP10 racing brake pads. It's much better. Still not ideal, but acceptable. Just fine for street driving but on the track I could stand to have more modulation under hard fast braking.

  5. #45
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    Which 7/8" master cylinder are you using Hindsight? About to mount my stock unit and figure I might as well just plumb in the 7/8" up front.

  6. #46
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    The OE Nissan part number is 46010-1M320
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

  7. #47
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    Thanks, Dan beat me to it.

    I'd also suggest drilling the hole in the brake pedal for the pushrod just a bit higher than FFR suggests. I'd drill two, one where FFR suggests and another just high enough above it that there is enough metal between the two holes. Once the pedal is in the car with the dash and everything else in place, it's a SERIOUS pain in the butt to take the pedal cluster all the way out, disassemble it, and drill the second hole (if you decide you want more leverage). You will need to disassemble the pedal cluster to drill that second hole, BTW, since the bracket gets in your way. Just tap the spring pins out with a roll pin punch and the whole thing comes apart.

  8. #48
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    what model 90's Nissan was than PN used in? 240?
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

  9. #49
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    Thanks guys! Great advise. Just ordered the MC and will go ahead and drill the second hole.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by RM1SepEx View Post
    what model 90's Nissan was than PN used in? 240?
    I can't remember. Either 240 or 300 I think. I found the part number here and bought it from Rock Auto if I recall correctly. It was dirt cheap. The brake fluid feeder barb attachments were a bit different; on the Nissan master cylinder, they just stay on in a press-fit whereas on the Subaru one, there is a boss in the casting with a hole through it that a roll pin goes into to help secure things. I like the Nissan version better.

  11. #51
    Senior Member DodgyTim's Avatar
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    Nissan part number is 46010-1M320, Nissan Sentra or 200SX
    sentra.png

  12. #52
    Senior Member RM1SepEx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DodgyTim View Post
    Nissan part number is 46010-1M320, Nissan Sentra or 200SX
    sentra.png
    Awesome, I'm sure this will help a bunch of people
    Dan

    818S #17 Picked up 8/1/13 First start 11/1/13 Go Kart 3/28/14

  13. #53
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    resurrecting this thread as I need some advice for brake pads. My 818S is now legal and I've put 100 miles on it. Brake pedal effort is like the OP, major effort to bring the car to a stop. I figure the first thing to do is change pads, but which ones, some like Hawk, some like Stoptech. I'm running 2006 4 piston calipers with new rotors. I think the pads were centric posi quiet ceramic. This car will be 100% street, so I want something that grabs well when cold. Yes I drilled the option hole in the brake pedal per FFR manual.Thanks

  14. #54
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    resurrecting this thread as I need some advice for brake pads. My 818S is now legal and I've put 100 miles on it. Brake pedal effort is like the OP, major effort to bring the car to a stop. I figure the first thing to do is change pads, but which ones, some like Hawk, some like Stoptech, others EBC. I'm running 2006 4 piston calipers with new rotors. I think the pads were centric posi quiet ceramic. This car will be 100% street, so I want something that grabs well when cold. Yes I drilled the option hole in the brake pedal per FFR manual.Thanks

  15. #55
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    I just licenced my 818S this week and am having the same issue.
    I can almost lock them up if I push really hard, but I would rather have much better braking.
    Tamra is using the EBC yellows and says they are night and day. Hindsight has Raysbestos ST43 and he is happy.
    Wayne has been recommending Hawk, but they don't make the best ones for 2002 donor double pots.
    I just ordered some EBC yellow pads from Wayne Presley - vendor on this forum... verycoolparts.

    I am going to try the pads first, then smaller master cylinder bore.
    Harley
    Bought 2002 Donor Jan 2014
    First Start Jan 18, 2015
    First Drive Feb 14, 2015

  16. #56
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    Also would like to verify the brake bias adjuster. Is full counter clockwise full front brake pressure or is it full clockwise. I have it at full counter clockwise right now.

  17. #57
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    It wasn't me with the Raybestos...not sure who it was. I've tried both Hawk HP, Ferrodo DS 2500, and Carbotech XP10. Carbotech were the best of the bunch for street, but none of them are great for the track. They all fade. And even for the street the Carbotech improved things but not as much as I would prefer. Pedal effort is still higher than I would prefer. That is also with a 7/8" master cylinder (which is smaller than the 1" stock WRX master).

    Bob seems to have the best working setup (though it's tough to say that definitively because pedal effort is subjective and I've not tried his brakes) by using the same calipers front and rear. The more piston area you have, the more leverage you get (assuming the same size master).

    I've spent days researching, running numbers, testing different pads, etc, and have come to the conclusion that the best option is to go with the full wilwood setup including the pedal box so that you can have the front to rear balance bar. Either that or someone needs to find a bolt-on 3/4" (or even smaller) master cylinder.

  18. #58
    Senior Member EODTech87's Avatar
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    I purchased a 200SX master that's 7/8". It fits the same and is easily adapted to use the reservoir relocation kit I have.

    http://www.ebay.com/itm/BRAKE-MASTER...item3d3a2a5f45
    -Jason

  19. #59
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    I raised the hole in the pedal another 1/2 inch per the Wilwood tech I spoke to. The problem is we don't have enough leverage with the pedal because the brake booster is gone. If we start using smaller master cylinders we could run out of fluid volume to apply the brakes evenly. The extra leverage the higher holes gives us keeps the extra volume and still helps the pedal effort. I have 05 Sti brakes on my car and have no issues stoping the car with stock pads and nice soft pedal feel. Have been 140+ at the track and had no problems stopping. If anyway needs a better explanation just call Wilwood and talk to the tech department and they should explain our pedal ratio is off so the simple new hole will take care of the problem.

  20. #60
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Taco, which Wilwood brakes you got? I mean, you say you got 05 STI brakes, if they are OEM why did you call Wilwood? They have nothing to do with OEM brakes, so I assume you got 4 or 6-piston Wilwood brakes "for" 05 STI?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
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  21. #61
    Senior Member EODTech87's Avatar
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    Another option would be to run the Wilwoods with larger Pistons. Both the front and rear calipers are available with a total piston area of 4.8 which would both increase braking force and even out the brake balance front and rear.
    -Jason

  22. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    Taco, which Wilwood brakes you got? I mean, you say you got 05 STI brakes, if they are OEM why did you call Wilwood? They have nothing to do with OEM brakes, so I assume you got 4 or 6-piston Wilwood brakes "for" 05 STI?

    Hey Frank,
    I do have stock 05 Sti brakes. I contacted Wilwood because I was looking into buying one of the master cylinders. They sell 3/4 and 7/8 inch master cylinders so I wanted to know which they recommended for our cars. I also saw on their page they have a pedal ratio chart and when I measured my pedal ratio and told them the number I had compared to the ratio they use for their pedal that is when they told me to move the hole up and correct the ratio and get the leverage proper for not having a brake booster. They can get away with having smaller master cylinders because they are using two master cylinder not just one. They told me I can get more total braking pressure with the bigger master cylinder but need the extra leverage from the better pedal ratio to get the feel you need. I have brake pressure gauges on my car and have seen way over 800 psi possible with my setup. To me it is just a little work to remove the pedal and drill another hole verses buying a hole new brake setup, so that is why I did it. I cannot complain about how the brakes feel now. Since I have not gotten my car titled yet all I do is play at the track. Anyway anyone can measure their pedal ratio and compare it to what is sold with aftermarket pedal and see there is a difference that can be fixed with a simple hole being drilled.

  23. #63
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    I just was able to crawl under my dash to look at drilling a new hole. Does not look like fun! Getting out from under was even less fun. Glad my wife wasn't lurking nearby with her camera. Anyway, I think I came up with a solution I'd like some opinion on. I'm thinking of removing the clevis pin and bracket that connects the pedal to the MC threaded rod. Then weld some tabs to the bracket with drilled holes so that I can use the same hole in the pedal arm but effectively raise the threaded rod for better leverage. Not sure how well I'm explaining this. Basically drilling a different hole in the bracket rather than the pedal arm. Seems it would be a little bit easier.

  24. #64
    Senior Member Frank818's Avatar
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    Tnx Taco, I clearly understand now!
    I already drilled a little higher than FFR's recommendation but I don't know if it's high enough.
    However drilling another there I need to remove a lot of stuff in order to remove the pedal box! It's one of the worst part to remove.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
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    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
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  25. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgf05354 View Post
    I just was able to crawl under my dash to look at drilling a new hole. Does not look like fun! Getting out from under was even less fun. Glad my wife wasn't lurking nearby with her camera. Anyway, I think I came up with a solution I'd like some opinion on. I'm thinking of removing the clevis pin and bracket that connects the pedal to the MC threaded rod. Then weld some tabs to the bracket with drilled holes so that I can use the same hole in the pedal arm but effectively raise the threaded rod for better leverage. Not sure how well I'm explaining this. Basically drilling a different hole in the bracket rather than the pedal arm. Seems it would be a little bit easier.
    I wouldn't trust that for brakes - lots of force there and there isn't much to the clevis bracket to weld to. You are right about it not being fun to get in there. To drill higher than FFR suggestion, you have to remove the pedal from the cluster and I haven't been able to do this without removing the whole pedal cluster from the vehicle. Lots of fun.

  26. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank818 View Post
    Tnx Taco, I clearly understand now!
    I already drilled a little higher than FFR's recommendation but I don't know if it's high enough.
    However drilling another there I need to remove a lot of stuff in order to remove the pedal box! It's one of the worst part to remove.
    Hey Frank
    Glad we are on the same page now.
    It wasn't that hard for me since on the second time around building the car is when I talked to Wilwood and made the decision to drill the new hole and the car was in go-cart mode. I had no interior or body panels to remove to get the pedal assembly out. It may seem like a struggle to do but redesigning your brake setup for a different master cylinder won't be much easier. With the new hole all the hard work you put into getting the brakes done is already over so you get to enjoy the fruits of your labor. I wish FFR had told us from the beginning to go higher to fix the issue which almost everyone using the stock pedals has.

  27. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by taco20 View Post
    I wish FFR had told us from the beginning to go higher to fix the issue which almost everyone using the stock pedals has.
    They did. It's at the end of the donor disassembly section of the manual.

    Do keep in mind that the higher you go on the pedal the less travel you have. Removing the pedal to go as high as possible will not necessarily make things better.

  28. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by phil1734 View Post
    They did. It's at the end of the donor disassembly section of the manual.

    Do keep in mind that the higher you go on the pedal the less travel you have. Removing the pedal to go as high as possible will not necessarily make things better.
    He means to drill up even higher than the higher hole FFR suggests. Shouldn't changing the master cylinder bore size and changing the pedal ratio should essentially accomplish the same thing? A reduction in the amount of fluid moved per amount of pedal travel. The less fluid that moves, the more leverage you have on the brakes and the lighter the effort. The only down side to all this is if you run out of pedal travel.

  29. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    He means to drill up even higher than the higher hole FFR suggests. Shouldn't changing the master cylinder bore size and changing the pedal ratio should essentially accomplish the same thing? A reduction in the amount of fluid moved per amount of pedal travel. The less fluid that moves, the more leverage you have on the brakes and the lighter the effort. The only down side to all this is if you run out of pedal travel.
    Yeah, I think we're on the same page but getting there in different ways. I was pointing out that you still need a certain (small) amount of travel in the master to work the brakes, and as you go higher with the hole the more the pedal face has to move, eventually leading to massive amounts of travel (at the pedal face).

    E.g., If you somehow managed to move the hole all the way up to the pivot point of the pedal, you would have no brakes at all, but infinite pedal travel. At some point there will be a point of diminishing returns with going higher and you'll only be increasing pedal travel - not what you want from a performance standpoint.

  30. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by tgf05354 View Post
    I just was able to crawl under my dash to look at drilling a new hole. Does not look like fun! Getting out from under was even less fun. Glad my wife wasn't lurking nearby with her camera. Anyway, I think I came up with a solution I'd like some opinion on. I'm thinking of removing the clevis pin and bracket that connects the pedal to the MC threaded rod. Then weld some tabs to the bracket with drilled holes so that I can use the same hole in the pedal arm but effectively raise the threaded rod for better leverage. Not sure how well I'm explaining this. Basically drilling a different hole in the bracket rather than the pedal arm. Seems it would be a little bit easier.
    I know what you mean... I even had my interior in when I had to drill the hole. My trick was using a 90* drill adapter with an impact ready bit that was quite a bit short than a standard bit. I was able to get my new hole about 3/4 higher than previous hoping that it will be enough. https://www.amazon.ca/DEWALT-DD5120-...+5%2F16+impact

    https://www.amazon.ca/DEWALT-DWARA10...walt+90+degree

    On another thread about this subject I there was a recommendation of using some ceramic brake pads from Hawk, I think it was their "yellow Stuff" pad and Tamara has had great results with it.

  31. #71
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    Hey I did find a nice page on pedal ratio and how it is measured and what range we should be in. http://techtalk.mpbrakes.com/how-to-...ng-pedal-ratio

    My pedal travel did increase but before the pedal was so hard it didn't move much at all. Now it has a more OE feel to it and pedal height car always be adjust with the adjuster rod to make it lower or higher and get it away from the floor
    if it travels to much for your liking.

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  33. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by taco20 View Post
    pedal height car always be adjust with the adjuster rod to make it lower or higher
    Come again? We can adjust the height of our OE Impreza pedal?
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
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  34. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by iblackwe View Post
    I know what you mean... I even had my interior in when I had to drill the hole. My trick was using a 90* drill adapter with an impact ready bit that was quite a bit short than a standard bit. I was able to get my new hole about 3/4 higher than previous hoping that it will be enough. https://www.amazon.ca/DEWALT-DD5120-...+5%2F16+impact

    https://www.amazon.ca/DEWALT-DWARA10...walt+90+degree
    I already got that right angle adapter but only a 1/8 bit. That might be a lot easier to buy a 5/16 bit and not remove the box rather than removing the box. That's a very good alternative!

    I'll read taco's page and see where I did my hole.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
    Tracked May 27/July 26, 2017
    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
    Build Completed Winter 2021

  35. #74
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    You can make small adjustments by threading the master cylinder push-rod in or out from the clevis on the pedal.

    Your brake pedal should be hard as a rock with as little as travel as possible. It drives most people that have only dealt with over-boosted OEM brakes crazy but once you get used to it you won't want it any other way. Try sitting in an Indycar (or similar non-boosted application) and working the brakes if you ever get a chance.

    Ed: If you need a bit of travel to safely stop your car, go with the bit of travel. I hope that goes without saying but you never know.
    Last edited by phil1734; 08-08-2017 at 07:12 AM.

  36. #75
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    I'm not sure if this will help anyone, but I put STI Brembos (front and rear) on my car, and while doing this also did the 7/8" Nissan master cylinder. WOW! Fantastic brake setup. I love the way it feels now. Before I had the OEM WRX master, and WRX 2-pot front/1-pot rear calipers. Pedal was insanely stiff and extremely uncomfortable - even with having the clevis drilled high as per FFR instructions. After doing my master cylinder swap, car feels like almost anything else out there with a brake booster. I didn't get a direct comparison though, as I did the Brembos with more aggressive pads than what was on originally.

  37. #76
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    Oh Phil I get it, about the clevis adjustment! I thought you meant the pedal itself could be lowered at the very bottom of the pedal.

    My brakes are exactly as you describe, hard rock not much after I press on them, almost instantly after and the brake travel is much less than boosted OEM Subaru I thought this thread was about hard rock brake effort yielding to no braking, maybe I misread.
    Frank
    818 chassis #181 powered by a '93 VW VR6 Turbo GT3582R
    Go-karted Aug 5, 2016 - Then May 19+21, 2017
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    Build time before being driveable on Sep 27, 2019: over 6000h
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  38. #77
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    Has anyone tried to dial in a boosted setup? As in going to a larger master cylinder with the boosted brakes to lower pressure and make the brakes less touchy at light applications? It seems like that would be the ideal way to balance having a smooth brake pedal but also high maximum brake pressure.

  39. #78
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    Frank - no you read correctly. Based on the mechanics of it, I don't see how you could get high-torque braking with a super-firm pedal and not a ton of pedal effort. I haven't been able to get anywhere near that with all the various setups I've tried. If I change things to get the brake line pressure I want, I don't get a super-firm pedal anymore. I'd rather have strong brakes with a pedal that's a bit softer feeling, than very poor brakes with a really firm pedal.

    lsfourwheeler - There was a guy on the forum who went with a booster, but he didn't change the master cylinder size. I can't remember now whether or not he liked it.

  40. #79
    Senior Member DodgyTim's Avatar
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    Hendow (post #23) on this thread, had a standard booster and master cylinder, undrilled pedal, and wilwood brakes

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