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Thread: Brake effort?

  1. #1
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    Brake effort?

    Hey guys, I've go-karted my 818 a few times now and I can't figure out the brakes. I don't know if it's just because they aren't boosted or if there's an issue, but it seems like it take a lot of effort to get this thing to stop. I've only driven it around the neighborhood, so top speed was about 30 mph. I have to push really hard to get it to stop and I couldn't get the wheels to lock either. Just checking to see if you guys are experiencing something similar or if I have to chase some brake system gremlins. BTW, I've bled the system multiple times and there aren't any leaks so I don't think that's the issue.

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    Senior Member C.Plavan's Avatar
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    Do you have the Wilwoods?
    Thanks- Chad
    818R-SOLD!!!- Go Karted 7/20/14/ Officially raced NASA ST2- 2/28/15
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    Senior Member wleehendrick's Avatar
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    New pads/rotors need to be bedded in.

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    OEM brakes from my 02 donor. Pads and rotors should be bedded in. I bed them in when they were on the WRX, so I wonder if I need to re-bed them since I didn't keep the same pads w/ the same rotor.

  5. #5
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    What pads? Street/common/OEM pads don't need bedding and they wouldn't need re-bedding. I didn't hear "soft" and assume you know what you're doing. De-glaze the pads and if that doesn't work get something like a Hawk HPS pad. I've not heard complaints about excessive pedal pressure being required.
    I hope something is not flexing excessively.

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    They are Carbotech Bobcats (their street pad). I'm going to try and re-bed them. I didn't keep track of which pad went where so the grooves aren't matched. If that doesn't work I'll look into other potential issues.

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    Senior Member wleehendrick's Avatar
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    Did you drill a new hole for the clevis pin in the brake pedal? This gives more leverage on the MC. Is your BPV open all the way? Thats about all I can think of...

    BTW, from my experience, even street pads, while maybe not requiring a formal bedding procedure, do need more effort on fresh rotors until some material is transferred. But it sounds like thats not the issue.

  8. #8
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    This could do you a lot of good. Flex-Hone for rotors.

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    I had similar issues with my 818R. I have '06 WRX brakes running Carbotech XP8 pads. Even after sufficient break-in, the pedal effort was far too high. In order to slow the car at the end of a straight away at the track, I had to push the pedal absolutely as hard as could. The brakes were not near locking, and the car did not feel like it was at max deceleration. I confirmed that the guys who built my car did the clevis mod referenced by wleedhendrick above.

    My next course of action was to find a small diameter master cylinder (the small diameter generates greater line pressure for a given amount of pedal effort). My donor master cylinder had a 1" diameter. After quite a bit of searching and some trial and error, I found an early 1990s Nissan master cylinder that is the exact same configuration as the WRX part, but with a 7/8" diameter. The OE Nissan part number is 46010-1M320. The mounting flange, reservoir and brake line location are all identical to the Subaru part, making it a drop-in replacement.

    With the 7/8" master cylinder, the brake effort is definitely improved. It still takes a healthy effort to get max decel, but on the plus side, it is very difficult to lock up. If I could find one, I would like try a 3/4" master cylinder. Alternatively, when it comes time to replace the brake pads, I will go with something with more initial bite. Note that my 818 is an early car that does not have the mounting option for the Wilwood pedal kit. I am sure the Wilwood pedals offer many master cylinder sizes. However, it would require some major rework to install those pedals now that my car is assembled.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Buzz Skyline's Avatar
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    I have found similar braking issues. I've only go-karted around the neighborhood, but I was surprised to find I couldn't lock up the tires not matter how hard I pushed. And even at very moderate speeds, the braking distance was frightfully long. I'm using the donor pads with the rotors they were matched to before dis-assembly. I still have the brake booster, and was thinking of putting it back in. If it won't work, I might try lap_dog's cure. I'd rather not have to invest in the Wilwood brakes if I can get the donors to work.

    Has anyone else tried to keep the booster?

  11. #11
    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    Wow! An old-timer and his first post... I bet you have lots you could share.
    Such a compromise pad you ran. Are you streeting your R?
    Even with my Stoptech STR-40s they recommended this: Master Cylinder Size: Front: ¾”, Rear: ¾”, Pedal Ratio: 5.61
    Still, this is the first I have heard of people complaining about the brakes being inadequate.

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    I have only had the car out twice for a total of 6-7 sessions. I spent most of the summer fixing various items and installing a "tall man" roll bar (I'm 6'4" and my helmet was about 3" taller than the stock roll bar due to having to sit very upright in order to get enough leg room). One of the downsides of having a unique car like an 818 is you seem to be the last in line to get work done at a race shop. Guys want to focus on what they know (be it Corvettes, Porsches, etc.) and not get side tracked with odd-ball machines. As such, development has been slow.

    My initial concept was to street and track the car. However, I believe the car is going to become track-only and perhaps a club racer. My winter projects include getting rid of the FFR corrugated cooling hose (I have multiple leaks with low time on the car), installing an air-to-water intercooler (heat soak was slowing the car 1-2 seconds per laps after about 3 laps) and put in a VCP tuner shifter (the 3 to 4 shift with the standard push cable is brutally slow and costing lap time for sure).

  13. #13
    818 builder metalmaker12's Avatar
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    My brakes stop on a dime and smoke tires now. I had to bleed them a few more times and pads had to bed in. At first it was a slight effort, but nothing abnormal. Now they are just great. I have 06 subaru 4/2pots with Stoptech street pads and centric rotors with stainless lines
    818S frame #13 Jdm version 8 ej207

  14. #14
    Senior Member Buzz Skyline's Avatar
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    I'm hoping it has something to do with the brakes sitting in the garage for a year. But once the rust is scraped off I'd have thought they'd be fine. The other possibility is that the have some grease or something on them. I'll try some cleaner and see if they improve with use.
    Last edited by Buzz Skyline; 01-18-2015 at 12:31 PM.

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    Tazio Nuvolari wannabe Scargo's Avatar
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    lap_dog, I was just discussing the unique aspect with my racing guru Pete Agapoglou. Who can help you at the track when you break down and have a mish-mash of parts (saying bastar*ized here is not allowed) and some parts are very custom, like Howe or Allstar adjustable ball joints? With my STi there might be a chance someone at the track would have some parts or know how to fix it. Finding a shop has now been narrowed down to specialty places and a long wait. Getting my low STi on an alignment machine was a headache and certain equipment they used didn't match-up. Some places would not touch it. I've gone to doing it myself rather than trailering it forty minutes away. I can see the 818S being that way to some extent.
    I even had McMaster-Carr try to misconstrue my desire that they physically measure a bolt for me to mean that I was asking race car application advice, so they balked and totally refused to measure their high-strength bolt inventory. Now I am almost on my own due to all this wacky stuff I have. There sure are some mechanics (not to mention emissions inspection people) who scratch their heads and back away. Tire mounting, alignments, etc. all become "specialty work".

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    Senior Member wleehendrick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by metalmaker12 View Post
    My brakes stop on a dime and smoke tires now. I had to bleed them a few more times and pads had to bed in. At first it was a slight effort, but nothing abnormal. Now they are just great. I have 06 subaru 4/2pots with Stoptech street pads and centric rotors with stainless lines
    That's good to know, since I have pretty much the same set-up: 06 WRX brakes, SS flex lines, StopTech SP pads and turned OEM rotors. Are those comments with the clevis relocated? Thanks...

  17. #17
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    I'm also running the StopTech Street Performance Brake Pads 30909290. $44 per axle
    http://www.rockauto.com/catalog/moreinfo.php?pk=2022418
    But with 2 pot Subaru cast iron calipers on all four wheels.
    Clevis pin moved per ffr instructions. I am very happy so far.
    Bob
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 01-21-2015 at 07:47 PM.
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
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  18. #18
    818 builder metalmaker12's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wleehendrick View Post
    That's good to know, since I have pretty much the same set-up: 06 WRX brakes, SS flex lines, StopTech SP pads and turned OEM rotors. Are those comments with the clevis relocated? Thanks...
    Yeah I did the relocation
    818S frame #13 Jdm version 8 ej207

  19. #19
    Senior Member TouchStone's Avatar
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    Does any one have pictures of the relocation?
    818S Chassis #288 2.5L 323hp
    Ordered: 9/19/14 Received Kit: 11/2/14 First Start: 5/31/15 First Drive: 6/7/15 Registered: 3/10/2016 Completed: 2/10/2017
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  20. #20
    Senior Member Buzz Skyline's Avatar
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    It's in the section of the manual discussing donor prep. The pictures are pretty clear, as I recall. (I haven't looked at the manual in months, so I don't know page numbers.)

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    Member CNC_Geek's Avatar
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    Common sense says the same brake system that stops a 3,200lbs. car should work great on a 2,000lbs. car. Of course I won't get to test that theory for several months. I could find myself on the computer, looking for that thread about improving the brake system.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CNC_Geek View Post
    Common sense says the same brake system that stops a 3,200lbs. car should work great on a 2,000lbs. car. Of course I won't get to test that theory for several months. I could find myself on the computer, looking for that thread about improving the brake system.
    Don't forget that most don't have a power booster.
    Take a look at the pressure difference.
    mc.jpg
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
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  23. #23
    Member Hendow's Avatar
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    I've been running mine with the booster installed for around 2000kms so far. Yes the brakes are touchy, but I guess I have just grown familiar with them.

    Others that have driven the car either love it (very direct) or hate it (too twitchy) so 'its horses for courses'. I did try the brakes without booster assistance and found the pedal force to be very high, and brake performance poor as described by the OP. Having said that, I have not yet relocated the clevis pin pivot point.

    Mine has the donor master cylinder and pedals, but has the Wilwood big brake kit (obviously!).

  24. #24
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    see page 48 for new hole placement & parts to use

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    Senior Member Tamra's Avatar
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    With upgraded pads (ebc yellow stuff) I have to be conscious of not using too much force else I'll lock up the tires. With cheap Napa pads prior to bed in they required a LOT of force and didn't lock up the tires (all of my body weight sort of thing). The EBC Yellow Stuff stopped better than the Napa pads prior to bed in, and stop VERY good after bed in. This is with OEM WRX 2 pots, relocated the master cylinder linkage per the manual, OEM master cylinder, and included wildwood pro portioning valve (which we used to take away front bite since the car was too easy to lock up... On Hoosier A6 race tires!

    I'm ~130 lbs. if I can lock up the tires, you guys should be able to!
    Tamra
    Building 818SR #297 picked up 10/25/14 with Andrew (xxguitarist)
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  26. #26
    Senior Member TouchStone's Avatar
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    I did the relocation but moved the pivot point up about 0.6in instead of 0.5in. It is really amazing how much better the brakes feel. I'm running the OEM brakes (2 pot front 1 pot rear) with the Red stuff pads. I was able to lock the wheels up before it just felt like the seat was going to break.
    818S Chassis #288 2.5L 323hp
    Ordered: 9/19/14 Received Kit: 11/2/14 First Start: 5/31/15 First Drive: 6/7/15 Registered: 3/10/2016 Completed: 2/10/2017
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    joshuajach.com

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    So it looks like a downgrade in available pressure if one decided to run the sti brembos. Might need to switch to a smaller bore master or play with pad setups.

  28. #28
    Senior Member suttonb3's Avatar
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    Where are you guys running the proportioning valve? I don't remember seeing a recommended setting to at least start out with.
    Kit #295 Picked up 11/26/2014!

  29. #29
    Senior Member TouchStone's Avatar
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    Fully open is the recommend setting to start with. Should be located between one of the master cylinder outlets and the "T" that splits to the front brakes.
    818S Chassis #288 2.5L 323hp
    Ordered: 9/19/14 Received Kit: 11/2/14 First Start: 5/31/15 First Drive: 6/7/15 Registered: 3/10/2016 Completed: 2/10/2017
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    joshuajach.com

  30. #30
    Member CNC_Geek's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendow View Post
    I've been running mine with the booster installed for around 2000kms so far.
    Please send me a photo of your booster installation. I tried every which way and could not physically maneuver the booster into position. I received my kit April 2015 and have 2 boosters from 2001 and 2004. Was my chassis altered from early kits? Does Subaru have different size booster units? I am building mine for the street and wouldn't mind having the booster in place.

  31. #31
    Senior Member Junty's Avatar
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    Hey all, I'll confirm earlier comments on this thread - Yes I have an ABS system working(although switched), and yes I have a small master cylinder. I took a mild step, 15/16 inch instead of standard Subaru 1 1/16. I also am running upgraded pads - let them bed in - but I wanted more stopping without feeling like I was pulling the steering wheel off! Ive also moved the clevis - following FFR install, prior to installing the new smaller master cylinder I also tried a new position 3/4 inch up - this perhaps resulted in the same as a smaller cylinder however the changing angles concerned me, and at risk of bending a push rod I decided to keep the pressure perpendicular with the smaller reservoir. This is long term safety!
    I have now also installed Legacy GT front callipers (2 pot) and relocated my WRX 4 pot to the rear along with bigger Brembo rear rotors. Someone else with more mathematical ability than I calculated that I should now have about 2-5% front bias based purely on the cylinder/rotor size and pressure applied. I am very very happy with what I've ended up with, thankful to all input from others and for experimenting and testing from them and myself. Note - more information is available within my build thread, my system has no bias valve, and my own logic from historical mass produced sports cars with mid or rear engine which have same front and rear rotors with no bias is where i started working from... Best of luck to all!!!

  32. #32
    Senior Member suttonb3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TouchStone View Post
    Fully open is the recommend setting to start with. Should be located between one of the master cylinder outlets and the "T" that splits to the front brakes.
    Thanks for the quick reply. I'm in go kart mode and only have about 15 miles on the car, just cruising around the neighborhood. The braking performance has been weak, but I rebuilt the calipers and have brand new rotors and pads (north east donor, everything was rotten) so I figured everything just hasn't had a chance to bed in. This discussion reminded me that I installed the valve but never adjusted it. I looked at it and found that it was all the way closed. I opened it all the way up but haven't been able to take it for a spin because it seems like all of Florida is underwater. I'll update you all after I go for a drive. Thanks for all the help!
    Kit #295 Picked up 11/26/2014!

  33. #33
    Senior Member Bob_n_Cincy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suttonb3 View Post
    Thanks for the quick reply. I'm in go kart mode and only have about 15 miles on the car, just cruising around the neighborhood. The braking performance has been weak, but I rebuilt the calipers and have brand new rotors and pads (north east donor, everything was rotten) so I figured everything just hasn't had a chance to bed in. This discussion reminded me that I installed the valve but never adjusted it. I looked at it and found that it was all the way closed. I opened it all the way up but haven't been able to take it for a spin because it seems like all of Florida is underwater. I'll update you all after I go for a drive. Thanks for all the help!

    Be careful adjusting the knob. It kind of works backwards as you might think. Below is off Wilwood's datasheet.


    The adjusting knob is marked with an arrow indicating the direction required to decrease line pressure to the
    calipers. The knob rotated all the way out (counter-clockwise) will provide a maximum pressure reduction of
    57%. Rotating the know in (clockwise) will incrementally increase line prressure, up to full pressure. If the
    range of adjustment in the valve is not sufficient to properly balance the vehicle’s bias, changes to other
    components within the system may be necessary.
    Last edited by Bob_n_Cincy; 08-04-2015 at 11:17 PM.
    818S #22 Candy Blue Frame, Front Gas Tank, 2.5L Turbo, Rear radiator, Shortened Transmission, Wookiee Compatible, Console mounted MR2 Shifter, Custom ECU panel, AWIC soon
    My Son Michael's Turbo ICE Build X22 http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...rts-818S-Build
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  34. #34
    Member CNC_Geek's Avatar
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    Experience counts. Get it here for free or on your own for $?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob_n_Cincy View Post
    Be careful adjusting the knob. It kind of works backwards as you might think. Below is off Wilwood's datasheet.


    The adjusting knob is marked with an arrow indicating the direction required to decrease line pressure to the
    calipers. The knob rotated all the way out (counter-clockwise) will provide a maximum pressure reduction of
    57%. Rotating the know in (clockwise) will incrementally increase line prressure, up to full pressure. If the
    range of adjustment in the valve is not sufficient to properly balance the vehicle’s bias, changes to other
    components within the system may be necessary.
    Thanks for the heads up! First thing I did was to unscrew the valve expecting that would provide an unrestricted flow to the brakes. I haven't completed my car to the point of driving it yet so your advice has probably prevented an unhappy incident.

  35. #35
    Senior Member Mulry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lap_dog View Post
    ...My next course of action was to find a small diameter master cylinder (the small diameter generates greater line pressure for a given amount of pedal effort). My donor master cylinder had a 1" diameter. After quite a bit of searching and some trial and error, I found an early 1990s Nissan master cylinder that is the exact same configuration as the WRX part, but with a 7/8" diameter. The OE Nissan part number is 46010-1M320. The mounting flange, reservoir and brake line location are all identical to the Subaru part, making it a drop-in replacement.

    With the 7/8" master cylinder, the brake effort is definitely improved. It still takes a healthy effort to get max decel, but on the plus side, it is very difficult to lock up. If I could find one, I would like try a 3/4" master cylinder. Alternatively, when it comes time to replace the brake pads, I will go with something with more initial bite. Note that my 818 is an early car that does not have the mounting option for the Wilwood pedal kit. I am sure the Wilwood pedals offer many master cylinder sizes. However, it would require some major rework to install those pedals now that my car is assembled.
    FYI RockAuto has these master cylinders on wholesale closeout. Part number listed above works just fine. Original use was in a 95-98 Nissan Sentra or 200SX if anybody wants to go junkyard hunting in the future. Cheers.

  36. #36
    Member Hendow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CNC_Geek View Post
    Please send me a photo of your booster installation. I tried every which way and could not physically maneuver the booster into position. I received my kit April 2015 and have 2 boosters from 2001 and 2004. Was my chassis altered from early kits? Does Subaru have different size booster units? I am building mine for the street and wouldn't mind having the booster in place.
    Hi CNC,

    Apologies for the delay in response, as its virtually impossible to get the camera into that area with the body and windshield etc on.

    Anyway, I recently upgraded my front LCA's to the STi aluminium ones, which allowed me to get the camera in there.

    IMG_2229.jpgIMG_2231.jpg

    Bear in mind, my steering wheel is on the right (correct!) side...!

    I hope this helps, and shout out if you need more info.

    Cheers!

  37. #37
    Senior Member Quiny's Avatar
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    Since I was removing the nose on my 818 to change over to the new nose I figured I would see what I could do about the braking. I was using the stock 2002 WRX brakes and master. They work but I do not like that I think I'm going to break my seat when panic stopping. The stock master offered a rock solid pedal that had almost no travel. I tried an older master that was advertised with a 7/8 bore, that was a little better but I think it was actually a 1" bore. I found a booster delete kit online so now I will try that. It uses a heavy aluminum plate counter bored to accept a master and the plate mounts to the stock booster mount locations. I like the design since it now uses all 4 bolts to mount the pedal assembly and it also uses the stock rod location so no offset master cylinder. The only thing I don't like is that it is a jelly jar(single master), I am looking to see if I can find a tandem 3/4" master that will work but so far all I have found is a 1975 Ford Courier but it is designed for rear drum brakes. It may have a residual pressure valve built into it. The new unit does fit and bolts in very nice, I'm hating having to adjust the brake lines but I did figure out a way to bleed the clutch master in about 5 minutes. I had relocate the clutch master line to make room for the plate. I know this will have some travel in the pedal but I think I would prefer that. Has anyone else come up with any other options? The booster just seems too big.
    Brake_master.JPGbrake_master2.JPG

  38. #38
    Moonlight Performance
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    Bringing this thread back up.

    Seems like a couple people have now tried 7/8" master cylinders and they didn't make a big enough difference?

    My brakes stop the car fine on the track but I have to push as hard as I can on them and that means I am not able to modulate them. I'm very willing to swap out the master for a 7/8" bore size but obviously only want to do that if it will definitely make it better.

  39. #39
    Senior Member C.Plavan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hindsight View Post
    Bringing this thread back up.

    Seems like a couple people have now tried 7/8" master cylinders and they didn't make a big enough difference?

    My brakes stop the car fine on the track but I have to push as hard as I can on them and that means I am not able to modulate them. I'm very willing to swap out the master for a 7/8" bore size but obviously only want to do that if it will definitely make it better.
    I would just go to a gripper pad. I ran the crappy pads that came with the Wilwoods one track day- I had the same issue you describe. I then went to my trusty Raybestos ST43 (or 46 will work) pads.....It was a night and day difference.
    Thanks- Chad
    818R-SOLD!!!- Go Karted 7/20/14/ Officially raced NASA ST2- 2/28/15
    2016 Elan NP01 Prototype Racecar Chassis #20
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  40. #40
    Moonlight Performance
    Hindsight's Avatar
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    May 2014
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    Thanks Chad - I did change pads the other week, before the race. I went with Ferodo DS2500 which are supposed to be very grippy, even when cold. They are much better than the Hawks I had on there previously but I still have to stand on them to get to where the ABS starts kicking in.

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