What can I say, from what I've seen, every single point that I hoped would come with a coupe version has been realized. Style, cooling, removability and even power windows! My 818 fund starts now. Color this NC boy excited....very very excited.
Might even have to come up for the Summer Open House!
DAAAAHUM!!! That looks better than I ever imagined it could, and we haven't even seen it on the car yet! I'm sure it will look even better once its a complete picture. Can you spell HoF?
PLUS there is a roof scoop, side scoops AND rollup windows!!!! Are you kidding me?? UN-BEE-LEAVABLE.
We are building the chassis for the 818C right now. As a way of answering your question about the cage, the hard top as it is right now will not fit the existing cage. Funny thing is that we had this conversation just a few days ago, lamenting the fact that we have to build a street car coupe first (there is more demand) and looking at the Coupe basics. Jim's heart is really into building a race version since the 818R is so damn fast and a coupe version will add so many plus factors. I am of the same mind. Still, street version takes priority based on demand. Still it would be so uncharacteristic for us to not follow the obvious evolution of the 818 Coupe to the track. It is a very capable platform.
Also, yes, the tooling is being made for glass quarter windows and rear hatch (included) to join the windshield and side windows.
Lets get an Factory 818R running reliably and that can finish races first before going 818RC
The design looks great, very impressed. I prefer a coupe for racing. Please make it that us 818R owners can upgrade to the coupe design. Since these are race cars, I do not mind cutting out the existing rollbars and welding new ones in. It would be hard to get through the window with the current 818R rollbar
Thanks- Chad
818R-SOLD!!!- Go Karted 7/20/14/ Officially raced NASA ST2- 2/28/15
2016 Elan NP01 Prototype Racecar Chassis #20
1969 Porsche 911ST Vintage Race Car
1972 Porsche 911T (#'s matching undergoing nut & bolt resto in my garage)
Now my plan is to use the coupe top during the hot Arizona summer months, with my A/C, and use the soft top/no top during the nice winter months. I think I can suspend the coupe top from the garage ceiling for easy conversions. Maybe door poppers and maybe the door windows will work with the soft top. Probably should add defroster vents to my HVAC. Yippee, lots of plans and projects.
I want to do the same since I'm in Texas. Using the hard top in the Summer and Winter and no top during Spring and Fall.
Will the retro fit hardtop replace both rear top panels? Hump panel and trunk panel? I am asking because this is a question I have for a build I am doing now.
I've got to admit I was one of the guys who does not care for certain aspects of the current body design. With this hardtop and the possibility of other new body panels I am once again intrigued. Can not wait to see it on a finished car. Great job Dave, I'm glad you are continuing with the Swatch watch concept
I've got to admit I was one of the guys who does not care for certain aspects of the current body design. With this hardtop and the possibility of other new body panels I am once again intrigued. Can not wait to see it on a finished car. Great job Dave, I'm glad you are continuing with the Swatch watch concept
You will not be dissapointed mate.
Originally Posted by wallace18
Will the retro fit hardtop replace both rear top panels? Hump panel and trunk panel? I am asking because this is a question I have for a build I am doing now.
The Coupe/removable hard top is definitely going to affect the rear panels. The original design goal of a "paint-free" body was really derided as we came up a bit short on the process (likely the only design goal out of maybe 12 that wasn't executed fully), but the related benefits even without thermoformed machine made panels at this point were also that as qtr panels and body panels more akin to a modern car than a larger fiberglass body vintage replica, without seams, the panels are less expensive to make, easier to change, and as long as the chassis/steel mount points are maintained, easy to upgrade any serial numbered 818, thereby rewarding the early adopters while using the success of the design to drive accelerated versions. The success of the platform drives changes/upgrades and derivatives so the "swatch watch" philosophy is intact with the 818S, followed by the 818R and 818C and perhaps further, looking at power trains and other derivatives years down the road. As far as reliability is concerned, the cars have logged tons of miles under serious track testing and are pretty tough, we're just really pushing the edge of failure in a lot of areas with the car as part of a fairly well-thought out testing and development regimen (and as part of a hair-brained television pilot!) that is, of course constrained to a budget somewhat less than a Formula 1 team. We've logged tons of laps and miles in the development cars and I was simply sharing my sincere desire to see a track prepped 818C that will HAVE to come after the street coupe. The level of success of the 818 is phenomenal from SEMA awards, design awards, press, sheer volume of on-line builds and really exceptional performance. Lastly, while I am never going to be "happy" with where we are since my job is the future more than the present, I can't help but feel immense pride in the team and customers involved in the early stages of this 818 story. Compared to other efforts to launch new designs in the component car industry, the team has executed the goals stage by stage with patience, hard work, maturity, (a thick skin), and kindness, never taking their eyes off the ball and never forgetting that the real role of this car is not to sell this week or this month, but to add to the company's long term foundational efforts to become a truly great iconic american sportscar company whose greatness will be defined by the quality, performance and real value of our cars as much as by the stories and friendships those cars build. What I learned from all the conflict with Shelby was that a great company or great car is really a great story that is fun to share. It may sound a bit dramatic to say it that way, but that is the simple clear reason for the 818 to exist and to continue to evolve in support of the design goals that exist to support the long term goals that are quite ambitious. Late night and I better stop typing. slammed today, but 818 progress report is coming.
Last edited by Dave Smith; 01-22-2015 at 10:51 PM.
Thanks Dave, for making a great product and providing a great experience. It's not perfect, but nothing is. I've had a blast with my build, and expect to have years of fun with the 818 when I finish. (I am also going to be one of the first in line for the coupe top, so I can have a roadster in the summer and a coupe in the winter.)
Thanks for the updates Dave. The 818 is a great platform and I'm looking forward to future upgrades. I really like the backwards compatible retrofit plan and I think it will be a big selling point for future customers. I'm not really aware of any other manufacturer doing something similar. It will also help us existing customers to know that we'll never get bored because there will be a stream of new innovations we can retrofit over time.
I am responsible for any shortcomings in the red car photo edit in 2012 which I did to inspire the development of a hardtop for the 818. Thankfully David (AKA Vman7) agreed to adapt the lovely top from his Vantage design to Jim's 818. I am personally excited to see the wonderful job Factory Five has done bringing the hardtop into reality. The photos in the beginning of this thread hint at a potential new front end. There is also a curious and interesting rear end sitting up high on a shelf in the background of several pictures.
Thank you to Dave, Jim, Jesper, John and the entire FFR team for bringing our hardtop 818 dreams into reality. You have done allot of hard work, solving problems we haven't even thought of. Thank you for all of your efforts which still remain to bring this project to completion. You and your efforts are truly appreciated.
Last edited by FFR-ADV; 01-23-2015 at 03:34 PM.
Reason: attachment did not work
Regarding a cage, it looks like it's going to be difficult to get the main hoop top 2" above the drivers helmet, at least for a 6'3" guy like me. A race coupe version would need to fit over the R version main hoop, which would require a redesigned and expensive coupe top just for us racers.
I've seen the drivers seat dropped thru the floor before to fit taller guys in C5Z06 race cars, but it's generally not a good idea, and some rules ban the practice.
I guess it's wait and see time for the Open House next summer to figure if there's a way to modify the fit to pass the rules if one wanted to use an 818C as a platform for a caged car.
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
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818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
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Looks like I picked a GREAT time to do a periodic check-in with the 818 world! This Coupe could be a real game-changer for me. I have been planning for some time to build the roadster, i.e. rhymes with Schmobra, and that is still my first auto passion. BUT, I have had this idea running around in my head lately that involves turbo-charged flat 4 engines with modern electronics. Ahem.
I have the distinct impression that the 818 world is largely populated with younger builders than myself (53), but this middle-aged dinosaur may just join the boxer tuner community and have a blast with one of these!
Anyway: very exciting new from FFR, can't wait to see it really unveiled this summer.
Alan
"Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss."
- Pete Townshend
Regarding a cage, it looks like it's going to be difficult to get the main hoop top 2" above the drivers helmet, at least for a 6'3" guy like me. A race coupe version would need to fit over the R version main hoop, which would require a redesigned and expensive coupe top just for us racers.
I've seen the drivers seat dropped thru the floor before to fit taller guys in C5Z06 race cars, but it's generally not a good idea, and some rules ban the practice.
I guess it's wait and see time for the Open House next summer to figure if there's a way to modify the fit to pass the rules if one wanted to use an 818C as a platform for a caged car.
I am 6'5" and I would disagree... With the exisiting seat in the FFR 818 there is loads of space above my head on the soft top. With a different lower seat you could realizs more than enough real estate for a halo hoop above IMO
I am responsible for any shortcomings in the red car photo edit in 2012 which I did to inspire the development of a hardtop for the 818. Thankfully David (AKA Vman7) agreed to adapt the lovely top from his Vantage design to Jim's 818. I am personally excited to see the wonderful job Factory Five has done bringing the hardtop into reality. The photos in the beginning of this thread hint at a potential new front end. There is also a curious and interesting rear end sitting up high on a shelf in the background of several pictures.
Thank you to Dave, Jim, Jesper, John and the entire FFR team for bringing our hardtop 818 dreams into reality. You have done allot of hard work, solving problems we haven't even thought of. Thank you for all of your efforts which still remain to bring this project to completion. You and your efforts are truly appreciated.
Sorry for not getting the credit right, I saved the photo to my ipad but couldn't remember who did it.
The hardtop that's coming from FFR looks to be a winner inspired by you and Vman. The targa you worked up hopefully will some day come about. It's more in line wit what I have in mind for my future build.
No problem. My work was just a GIMP photo edit inspired by Vman7's Vantage design. John, Jim and the rest of FFR did the real heavy lifting to make this 818 hardtop real.
Last March Dave probed the community for removable hardtop interest:
"The 818S soft top looks good and is VERY weather tight affording owners a good all-weather option even good enough for air conditioning. The demand, however, for a removable hard top has been difficult to gauge, so I've decided to ask the people who have supported the 818 project the most (our customers) a question about the hard top."
"Question: Would you purchase a removable hard top for your 818S (the R roll bar is too high)? The target price is $1,999.
Removable hard top concept by Factory Five Forum member VMan using actual 818S studio photo. Development of the hard top has not been given the green light and your feedback will help determine if we slate this for production."
Factory Five has done a great job hitting 818 technical and price goals so far, so hopefully they can hit the delivery and target price.
I would expect that the door frame mods might be extra for 818S owners, vs post 818C builds.
I hope to have this hardtop on my 818s!
Thank you Dave for delivering a HOF hardtop for the 818!
Last March Dave probed the community for removable hardtop interest:
"The 818S soft top looks good and is VERY weather tight affording owners a good all-weather option even good enough for air conditioning. The demand, however, for a removable hard top has been difficult to gauge, so I've decided to ask the people who have supported the 818 project the most (our customers) a question about the hard top."
"Question: Would you purchase a removable hard top for your 818S (the R roll bar is too high)? The target price is $1,999.
Removable hard top concept by Factory Five Forum member VMan using actual 818S studio photo. Development of the hard top has not been given the green light and your feedback will help determine if we slate this for production."
Factory Five has done a great job hitting 818 technical and price goals so far, so hopefully they can hit the delivery and target price.
I would expect that the door frame mods might be extra for 818S owners, vs post 818C builds.
I hope to have this hardtop on my 818s!
Thank you Dave for delivering a HOF hardtop for the 818!
Except to say that there is more to this new couoe than simply a hard top. If power windows are included they most likely will be custom built so that's not a cheap addition. Not to mention any other developments that will be included in the couoe.
I wonder if the top could be purchased as a stand alone option without windows or other mods? Can't wait to see it at the open house!
I am 6'5" and I would disagree... With the exisiting seat in the FFR 818 there is loads of space above my head on the soft top. With a different lower seat you could realizs more than enough real estate for a halo hoop above IMO
That's good news. But I'll still wait till the Open House before I put money down again.
Thanks!
"Good Judgement comes from Experience. Experience comes from Bad Judgement"
Owner: Colonel Red Racing
eBAy Store: http://stores.ebay.com/colonelredracing
818R ICSCC SPM
2005 Subaru STI Race Car ICSCC ST and SPM
Palatov DP4 - ICSCC Sports Racer
I think it all depends on torso length and not overall height. I'm only 6' and with a very thin (almost no cushion) fiberglass racing bucket sitting directly on the floor with no rails, my head is only an inch or so below the rollbar.
Looks good! This is news I was hoping to see for the 818. I vote for a targa option also! I've got an ej207 wrx that will be turned into a C for sure at some point!
While $3,500 is not cheap, there's a whole lot of value for that price. The functionality it gives you really changes everything about the car!
Can't wait to see the final version.
Regards,
Steve
Must agree. For that money, you get a beautiful hardtop, plus a power windows package. And it's only a little more expensive than the soft top package, which only comes with side curtains. That doesn't make the soft top a bad deal. Just depends on what you want. I'll probably still go for the soft top. If they should happen to come up with Targa version of the coupe, then I'll have a really, really difficult choice to make............
This is a super premature recommendation re the roof scoop...
Two things for me here. Firstly the wind tunnel will reveal the results of the dark magic that is fluid dynamics and prove what the scoop does or doesn't do. You really can never make a call just by a few pics on that. Second the "heat soaked when stopped" issue is a total moot point as when does this car get bogged down in traffic? Litterally 20 seconds of driving later it will be cool again anyway.
Most people have derided Subaru for years for this design but that point has been driven by missunderstanding and undeveloped thinking rather than an actual bad design. I have exclusively owned and built Subarus for the last 16 years as well as developing and building my own top AND front mounted inter coolers for them. I can tell you emphatically that after MANY hours of personal testing with sensitive pressure testing equipment that the top mounted stock cooler is a solid design and a highly functional unit. If going for power (flow) gains then it immediately needs replacing. At stock boost levels however front mounted units actually decrease performance rather than create any real benefit.
Before the release of the hard top couoe I was going to go air/water, now I will simply install one of my own sheet metal designed hugh flow top mounts and ensure their is a good pressure differential between the top and bottom of the core.
Can't wait to see the wind tunnel measurement.
The Subaru top mount intercooler, and likely, this roof scoop intercooler design is perfectly well functioning while the car is moving. Subaru has a proven rally record with it. The problem is that when it stops, the heat rises. This will be a bigger problem with the roof scoop and longer duct, because it will take longer and require more forward speed to purge the duct of hot air.
I'm not talking about a problem sitting in sop and go traffic. You said yourself "Literally 20 seconds of driving later it will be cool again anyway." So a guy pulls up in his new $60,000 and revs his engine. You want to put him in his place with your $15,000 818. You rev your engine. The light turns green. You punch it, but when you do, you don't have full power, and the race is over long before 20 seconds is up, (because you're on public roads so you of course, will only jump up to the speed limit). The same problem will arise at the drag strip.
The biggest advantage to the stock top mount design is short ducting, and therefore, quicker response. Front mount retrofits are likely most often done, as you say to chase power gains, and putting it in front is the only option when you are putting in a physically larger intercooler. The added benefit, however, is seen at the drag strip, the cooler intercooler while at a standstill, giving you more available power when you hit the gas.
What I'm proposing is to keep the stock top mount intercooler. Just duct it to work with gravity (convection), not fight against it.
The wind tunnel testing, won't necessarily tell all, as Dave states. If the car is not running while in the wind tunnel, with the engine and intercooler hot, it will not show the same airflow over the intercooler as in the real world. It's going to be very easy in the wind tunnel to tell if wind is going into the scoop, but measuring how much airflow will be much more difficult. FFR has had undeniable problems with getting enough flow over the 818 radiator even after wind tunnel test seem to show the initial design would work. I guarantee that if the intercooler is ducted from low to high, with convection, it will work better and in more circumstances, such as getting the most air into your cylinders when accelerating from a stop.
The hardtop would be much more appealing if it included enough structure to contribute to safety, rather then just an overhead shell. The biggest advantage to a car's roof is the structure it afford, both for safety and rigidity. It doesn't sound like this hardtop will offer this at all.
It sounds like the plan is to design an 818C first, but it is essentially a roadster with a lightweight, non-safety shell bolted on top. Later, an 818C-R may be designed with a full cage. That gets the coupe out there more quickly, and available for retrofits, but is it the best plan? Why not use the coupe to merge the street and R versions into one? Make one chassis design, with a full roof cage structure, that is door friendly. The street version could be fitted with hinged doors. The R version could have bolt-in cage doors, compliant to FIA or whatever racing body FFR chooses.
The way the current hard-top seems to be going, it's a hard-top that's really not a hardtop, more for show than function. This design, using the existing 818S roadster chassis, might be better released with separate panels in front and behind the roll bar. The roof panel, between the windshield and roll bar could be made to be easily removed, essentially making a targa. This would give the styling of the hardtop, the ability to use real roll-up windows, better rain protection, and sunshine when you want it.
My posts may seem pretty critical, but please don't take them as a lack of support of the 818 or FFR. I think that FFR's work, particularly the 818, is some of the coolest stuff in the automotive world. It is an honor just being able to have my input heard on the development of such exciting products.
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Originally Posted by Dave Smith
