Requesting Help Diagnosing Inherited FF Roadster

[Hallque]

Hello all,

This is my first post here and I am, by just about any definition, an automotive novice. I recently inherited a FF roadster built by my father and grandfather, who both passed away. I was not involved in their work on the kit, so I don't have much car/build specific knowledge. I also don't have a lot of knowledge about automotive mechanics in general.

My father and grandfather seem to have more-or-less finished the build. I know that they had been driving it around for a while. I couple of weeks ago I towed it half way across the country to where I live. I fired it up and drove it around a couple of times (boy, what a blast), but the last time I took it out I encountered a problem. While heading down a hill I let off the accelerator. Then shortly before the bottom, I started to press the accelerator again to make it up the other side of the hill, however, I got no response from the engine. We began coasting up the other side of the hill with the engine idling. Eventually we stopped, and the engine stalled (I have to continually give it just a little gas to keep it going, particularly when it is cold). I could start the car, but pressing the accelerator still did nothing and so the car would inevitably stall out. After multiple starts and attempts to rev the engine, the car eventually stopped starting at all (probably flooded?). I took the top off the the carburetor and noted that the two of the four flaps were opening and a small spurt of fuel was dropped into the barrels (the two that were not opening) whenever the accelerator was pressed. Checking these items essentially exhausted my ability to perform roadside diagnostics and so I had the car towed home.

I would really appreciate any theories/speculation about what could have caused the symptoms I described. I really want to get to know this car (plus I don't have a ton of money) and so I would like to try and tinker with it myself and any leads forum members could provide would go a long way. Again, I don't know much about cars so please use layman terms as much of possible.

Thanks!

[NICK C]

Hallque welcome to the forum. Sorry to hear of the loss of your father and grandfather. You have a great chance to continue their legacy by doing what you are doing and getting that car on the road where they would want it to be. If you have a trustworthy mechanic I would have him ( her ), look at that carb. Could be accelerator pump, choke issue or linkage. Or may simply need a rebuild all of which should not be a great deal of expense if it will get the car safely on the road. If it hasn't been driven for a while could be bad gas or clogged filter. Also continue to pic the brains of these great bunch of guys on this forum. You can learn a lot as I have. Nick C

[michael everson]

Sounds like its starving for fuel. First, is there enough fuel in the tank? Sounds like maybe the fuel was low and uncovered the pickup in the tank while going down hill.
Next check for proper fuel pressure. Carbs are generally very low, around 5 PSI. What kind of fuel pump does the engine use? Look on the driver side front of the engine. There might be a mechanical pump mounted there. They tend to be pretty reliable.
Where are you located?
mike

[skullandbones]

Hi Hallque,

I know this is your first query so submitting pics may be new as well. However, if you can, get some detail shots of the carb on both sides with and without the air filter. Also, take shots of both sides of the engine bay and any components that would be of interest. Some front shots might show if there is a mechanical fuel pump (down low). It would be of value to see the engine bay and evaluate the general condition of the mechanics. A lot can be gleaned from such shots especially with many pairs of eyes looking at the situation. Remember to focus on the small details like the carb linkage, fuel lines, wiring and other components that make up the engine bay. This will also give a general overview of the condition of the roadster in this area. If you have a good local mechanic, they can probably give you a fairly quick diagnosis of the issue.

Hope you don't mind sharing some visuals of the project. I'm sure your father and grandfather would have enjoyed the attention the forum guys can give. I'm very sorry you lost both of them. Thanks, WEK.

[Jeff Kleiner]

Is the throttle cable or linkage intact and still connected to the pedal?

Jeff

[68GT500MAN]

Welcome to the forum, you will always get multiple answers to any problem here. If after you check all of the above suggestions it should be running. One thing that you did not mention, how long was it sitting since the last time it was driven? Could be a "varnish" problem.
Doug

[David Hodgkins]

Hallque,

Welcome to the forum. As a FFR owner you get to bypass all the new member restrictions. I've upgraded your account so you can upload pics to an album and set up your profile.

I'm hoping this is just the start of your journey with your roadster. You wouldn't be the first guy to go from zero to hero with these. We're here to help you learn about these cars, and your in particular. Upload some pics into an album and show us what you got.

[Cashiocons]

Hi hallque, I would check are the spark plugs. Get yourself a spark plug tester and check for fire at the plug, then ground the plug and check that it's firing If your carb is rich it can cause carbon buildup and short the plugs. If it's been setting for a while the carb float might b stuck. Don't use ethanol blended fuel, use 100% gas. Good luck, and keep us informed.

[DaleG]

Any chance your Dad and Granddad kept a build log? Check for the chassis number on the 2x2 under the steering wheel. With that info we may be able to uncover a log on this or the other forum which may give you a lot of info about the car. Any of their buddies have FFR's? The more you can find out, the better. Any idea when (what year) they started on it? I'm sure if they ordered from FFR, you could call them and get all of the order info, which would be a nice starting point.

Cheers, Dale

[Raceral]

If you don't mind us asking, what area do you live. There may be a ton of F5 folks close by willing to lend a hand and look over the build and give you help. Second, find you a good Mustang or Ford mechanic and just take it to them to get the bugs worked out.
Next.... once you get it all fixed up... be very careful even with a very stock motor, these things are a beast and will hurt you.
Sounds like you really need to find some F5 buddies in your area more I think about it.

[Raceral]

Post all the pictures you can, that will help the folks here help you.

[jakester888]

Welcome to the party. Quite an inspirational generational story you have. I'm running EFI, so no help to you on carbs. But wanted to say hello & welcome.

[first time builder]

First think to check is what Jeff said ,the linkage. You say you took top off carb, I hope you mean the air cleaner. Again what thers said photos help alot .
Kenny

[Ray]

His IP address is in Columbia, MO

Ray

[Hallque]

Hello All,

Thank you so much for all of the replies. I am sorry for my delay in responding. I thought I had the settings set to email me when replies came in, and so when I didn't get any emails I figured I hadn't received any replies. I couldn't have been more wrong!

First, I am located in Columbia, Missouri. I am a PhD student at the University of Missouri. The car sat for a little less than a year. Then I drove it a couple of times (a total of maybe 20 miles) before I encountered the problem. The car has about 1,600 miles on it. The fuel tank is currently 3/4 full.

The throttle cable is still attached. If I take the top off the carburetor (just the top plate so that I can see down into the interior or the air filter and view the top of the chambers) I can see the flaps open and a small spurt of gas go down into the chambers when I hit the throttle.

I spent some time with the car tonight. I had a buddy who guess that the distributor may have gone bad. I took out all of the spark plugs, grounded them, and then cranked the engine to see if the sparked. They did, so I think I can rule out the distributor - please correct me if the logic is bad here.

I agree that it seems like there is a fuel problem, and so I think that is the avenue I will pursue next. I have read online that the nozzle where the fuel enters the chambers of the carburetor can get clogged. Is there a good way to check if that is the problem? Also,a couple of people mentioned the fuel pump, however I am not sure what that would look like or how to establish that it is the problem. I will poke around on the internet, and tomorrow I will post a bunch of pictures.

Thanks again for all of the responses. I will begin checking this forum daily now that I now it is so active.

[skullandbones]

You took the top cover off the air filter/cleaner. The top of the carburetor was still on or I don't think you would get any activity from the accelerator pump in the carb. It sounds like the carb is pumping but it may be worn and may not be pumping enough gas when load is applied. It could be a small issue such as a clogged fuel filter or something major. I think it would be of utmost help to post pics of your engine bay and any others that may lead to a solution. Many clues can probably be gleaned from them. It would also make communication between you and others easier as you can just point to the area rather than attempting a long text that may not be accurate (sorry - due to your experience). It would be fun to help but this is not the fun way.

WEK.

[edwardb]

I agree with the other comments you've received that it sounds like a fuel problem. The squirt you see when you move the throttle is the accelerator pump squirting an extra dose of fuel into the throat of the carburetor when the throttle opens. Indicates there is fuel in the carb and the accelerator pump is working. But doesn't necessarily mean there aren't other problems. The main jets are down inside the carb. Also doesn't mean the carb has enough fuel, e.g. the float level is correct, the fuel pump is working properly etc. Do you happen to know if it was running OK before it went into storage for a year? If so, I would bet on something gumming up or clogging, like a filter, the jets in the carb, etc. Year old gas, especially if not treated, isn't going to run great. But it still should run better than you described. It would help, as others have said, if you would post pictures. Especially of the carb. I'm going to say you probably will need some professional help to get this resolved.

[Hallque]

Ok, I have created an album with some shots of the engine. One thing a noticed while taking the photos is that there doesn't seem to be anything in the engine area that could be a fuel pump. I took a picture of what I believe to be the fuel line (see here:http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/attac...3&d=1422823295). As you can see, there is a block mounted on the wall between the engine compartment and the driver/passenger compartment. The block has three lines coming out of it. Two go down underneath the body of the car and go back towards the fuel tank. The third has a pressure gauge on it (which reads 0 psi) and feeds into the carburetor. I looked near the back of the car but it sits really low and so I couldn't get any good pictures. At some point I will have a buddy help me push the car up onto wheel ramps so I can get underneath and take some good pictures. Is it possible that the fuel pump is in the back, next to the fuel tank?

I also took some pictures looking down into the carb (see here: http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/album...chmentid=38319). When I press the gas pedal, the flaps you can open up and a small spurt of fuel is dropped down into the barrels. I understand that there are fuel nozzles in each of those barrels below the flaps you can see in the picture. Is there a good way to check if these are clogged?

All of the pictures I took are in an album which I think you can access through my profile. Please let me know if there is any trouble with the images.

Thanks again everyone!

[edwardb]

Pictures are helpful. Agreed, no evidence of a mechanical fuel pump. It would be on the timing cover on the driver's side near the oil pressure sending unit and oil filter. Like this:



None of the pictures look directly at that area, but don't see a pump anywhere. That plus the firewall regulator and fuel lines going to the back of the car. That suggests an electric fuel pump. You should hear it running when you turn on the ignition before starting the car. You also should see pressure on the gauge at that time. The pump is either somewhere under the car in-line with the fuel line. Or most likely it's an in-tank fuel pump mounted through the top of the fuel tank. If you see the fuel lines going to the top center of the tank, and no evidence of an external in-line pump, that's what you have. If you don't hear it running or the gauge is not showing pressure, that could be your problem.

The pictures of the carb don't help much. Looks like a pretty standard double pumper carb. Either Holley or Quick Fuel. Probably Holley. What you can see looking down through the top doesn't tell you too much. You've already confirmed the accelerator pump is working, meaning also there's at least some fuel in the carb. The throttle plates look like they're closed OK. You will see only two of them move when you work the throttle off of idle. About half throttle and beyond you should see the other two start opening. You should see fuel levels in the little round windows in the side of the carb. You should see fuel right about the center of the window. If you don't, that's also a possible issue.

For me, a major question remains whether this is a new condition and was running OK when put into storage a year ago. Or was it not working right then.

[Hallque]

I can confirm that the pressure gauge continues to read zero even when I turn on the ignition before starting the car. I will check tomorrow to see if I can hear it running. If I do hear it running but still see no pressure on the gauge, could it be a clogged fuel filter?

Edit: I should also mention that I have no way of knowing for sure that the car was running well before it sat, but I have no reason to believe otherwise. I drove it a couple of times myself before my father and grandfather passed away and I think they were driving it some when the weather was nice also. Moreover, the car seemed to run OK the few times I took it out after getting it to Missouri, although as I mentioned, I only drove it for 20 miles or so.

[MPTech]

Congrats on your Cobra, but condolences on your father and grandfather.

After you get it running, I just wanted to let you know there are a bunch of helpful guys in the Gateway Cobra club in St. Louis.
Gateway Cobra Club of St. Louis/

Give us a call if you get in town.
I'm planning to drive my roadster down to Columbia this summer to visit a friend.

Good luck with your running issue.

[edwardb]

I can confirm that the pressure gauge continues to read zero even when I turn on the ignition before starting the car. I will check tomorrow to see if I can hear it running. If I do hear it running but still see no pressure on the gauge, could it be a clogged fuel filter?

Sounds suspicious. Fuel pump not working or clogged filter could cause the problems you're having. Assuming the regulator is OK and adjusted properly.

[mrmustang]

Sounds suspicious. Fuel pump not working or clogged filter could cause the problems you're having. Assuming the regulator is OK and adjusted properly.

Then again, are you certain the car has fuel, and the gas gauge is not reading incorrectly?



Bill S.

[stack]

Does the car have a Mecanical or Electric Pump? If they used an electrical pump they may have also used the ford Enertia switch. You could have made it pop accidently and then the fuel pump would not run. Look for one of these in the trunk or under the dash and make sure the red button is all the way in.

[skullandbones]

Hallque,

You are now making progress in your first troubleshooting venture! Good pics. You know you most probably have a EFI style fuel system. There is no good reason for running a double fuel line to the back if it is not a return style system. Another good thing: if you plan on keeping it a carb based system, you have a lot of spare braided line for other projects (that is if you go with a single line to the back). You could keep it like it is but you could simplify if you have to replace components anyway. If you have a bad fuel pump you might consider simplifying the system by going to a single line to the engine still using the regulator (I would DC the gauge except for trouble shooting) and other lines. This would require changing to a mechanical pump on the front of the engine like in edwardb's pic.

However, you need to see what your issue is which could begin at the front. You can remove the line between the carb and regulator and see if you have fuel flow when cranking (steady flow, no fuel, or somewhere in between). Also, you can check the condition of the fuel at this time (debrit, water, color , etc). You can also check the regulator at this time. Adjust it to see if it increases the flow or degreases and does the fuel pressure register at all. I would have a fire extinguisher and blanket at my side and some friends for support. The next thing may require you to drop the tank (I would empty first if possible). You can remove the fuel pump check the tank for debris and the pump for condition. Sometimes you can't tell if the pump is working well even when it makes a buzzing sound. I've seen bad pumps that ran fine. If you can find a mechanically inclined friend to trouble shoot with you, you will probably be better off. You can supervise and come back with questions from step to step. Remember you only need 5 to 8 psi for the carb system. If you have more than that, it will actually cause problems with your carb. That's another reason that changing to a simpler one line system might be the way to go. One of the first and simplest things to change is the fuel filter. If like most, you can't inspect. You just have to change them out. Make sure you install with the flow arrow pointing in the correct direction, that is, toward the front of the car. I hope you have a lucky day and find that it is a very simple solution. If it doesn't turn out that way, starting at the tank and working your way forward will solve the issue for sure. We are always looking for simple solutions but sometimes it doesn't happen. Good luck, WEK.

[Hallque]

Lots of good info here. It sounds like I have a full day of exploring potential issues ahead of me. I'll buy a six pack and lure a buddy over to help, run through the suggestions here, and then report back. Thanks again.

[emac]

Does the car have a Mecanical or Electric Pump? If they used an electrical pump they may have also used the ford Enertia switch. You could have made it pop accidently and then the fuel pump would not run. Look for one of these in the trunk or under the dash and make sure the red button is all the way in.

+1 Inertia switch was my thought as well. I think I would start by finding the fuel pump, maybe disconnecting a line and see if it is pump fuel into a bucket. Check for voltage at the pump also. keep us posted.

[Norm B]

Sounds like your car is set up pretty close to mine. I kept the in tank electric pump and used a return regulator ( the block with 3 lines coming out of it). Good suggestions already given and I would add checking the fuse box for a blown fuse and listening for the fuel pump relay to click when the ignition is turned on. The relay could have gone bad.

Good Luck and Welcome to the Fun
Norm

[Norm B]

After reading your posts again I had another thought. If all of the above suggestions don't solve your problem. Take the fuel line off at the carb and put it into a clean container. Have someone ready with a fire extinguisher. Turn the ignition on for a moment. DON 'T TRY TO START THE CAR. See what you get in the container.
I've had fuel lines brake down over time and let little pieces of black rubber brake off the interior lining of the line and plug the inlet (float seats) of the carb.
If you are not comfortable doing this please get a mechanic to help.

Good Luck
Norm

[first time builder]

Looking at what photos you have posted I can tell by looking at the side of the Carb bowls that you have a Barry Grant Demon carb. You can confirm that by looking at the front and rear of the carb , it will say "DEMON". Very good carb once it is set up properly. That is probably not your problem as you said you have driven the car. Norm sounds like he is on the trail and his explanation of the fuel lines is probably most accurate.
I think from your posts you might need help . If there are no other FFR people near you look for help from a good Ford mechanic.
Good luck
Kenny

[skullandbones]

Looking at what photos you have posted I can tell by looking at the side of the Carb bowls that you have a Barry Grant Demon carb. You can confirm that by looking at the front and rear of the carb , it will say "DEMON". Very good carb once it is set up properly. That is probably not your problem as you said you have driven the car. Norm sounds like he is on the trail and his explanation of the fuel lines is probably most accurate.
I think from your posts you might need help . If there are no other FFR people near you look for help from a good Ford mechanic.
Good luck
Kenny

I mentioned this as well but forgot to say to disconnect the coil wire as a precaution (so engine won't start). Sorry. WEK.

[Hallque]

So I got really busy and didn't have a chance to test any of the theories here for a while, but I have spent the last couple of days trouble shooting with a buddy. When I turned the key to start the car's electronics we did not hear the fuel pump, so we started with that. My fuel pump sits inside the fuel tank, so we dropped the tank and tested the voltage to the pump and registered 12 volts - as it should. We figured the pump itself went bad. We purchased a new one, tested it outside the tank (just for a second), and it worked. However, after actually dropping it in the tank it no longer ran. Finally we figured out that there was a loose connection in the ground wire, so that we only got a solid connection when there was tension on the lead. We tightened that down, and now the car is running like a dream again. Thanks to everyone for all of their excellent advice. I am so excited to have the car running again, especially with spring right around the corner.

[David Hodgkins]

Hallque,

That's GREAT you have the car running again! Make sure you take the time now and do a full bolt check of the whole car and lube everything. Don't forget, this car is a race car, not a daily driver so a much higher attention to maintenance is required of the owner.

Congrats again.

Pics?

[emac]

great job! Glad you got it going and thanks for posting. Nice to see a happy ending to a thread.

[CraigS]

That is great news. Now you can join the guys in the local cobra club mentioned above. This will be the start of a great summer.

[Norm B]

Good job finding the problem. Intermittent electrical problems are the most fun
Thanks for posting the resolution. Too many threads leave us hanging.

Norm

[CraigS]

For future reference there is a small glass window on the side of the float bowl where you can see if there is gas in the carb or not. Next to the red arrow in the pic you can see three graduation lines used for reference in setting the height of the gas in the bowl.

Also there is another one toward the front of the carb for the primary side. Sometimes it's easier to see if you bounce the fender of the car a little to get the gas moving.